Starting position and getting around the ball

[edpup316]

So i stopped bowling back in 2008 but before i stopped my speed was around 16 or 17 mph. Cut to two years later and ive started bowling again but taking it much more seriously then before and for some reason my speed has jumped up to like 18-19 mph. I haven't changed my starting position or how many steps i take. I have however been working on a much freer arm swing which. I wasn't loving the speed in the beginning but then started avg in the 220's so i didnt mind it so much. but after doing it for a couple years now i realize that i just cant keep it up. i have to many shots that i cant get my hand around on cause of how fast im throwing it. Currently my starting position is with my arm at my side except the ball is up near my shoulder so my arm looks more "V" if i brought the ball down to the more classic "L" position would i be going in the right direction to getting more consistency in coming around the ball or would you try to keep the speed and just work on trying to come around the ball???

Any and all help wanted please. If you need to see a video of me bowling before giving me advice let me know and i can post one.

[Hot_pocket]

You should post a video also but i was able to visualize what you were saying about the V and L arm shape. Speed isn't a bad thing or a good thing depending on the shot your bowling on. the good is If you bowl on dry lanes that speed will help and give you that "one up" over those who throw slower. The bad is the more oil the harder it is for the ball to react unless your playing straight up like Walter Ray Jr. style. If you want to cut speed one of the things i have always heard was to bring the ball down. That classic L still might be to high up so play around with it till you find what helps you drop the speed. I myself throw about 18mph but i also make sure i stay underneath and behind the ball to still get a good reaction because its hard for me to drop my speed. I can do it now after practicing holding the ball literally at my waist or lower. So play around with it till you find whatever helps you. Try moving up a little further on the approach also that could help.

[Tampabaybob]

The V in your swing sounds like what's called "chicken winging it". It can be a very hard habit to break. The first thing, and I agree with 'hot pocket' is to get someone to video tape you. You need to see what others can see from behind and from the side. It's hard enough to correct a problem and if you see it, it should make it somewhat easier.

As far as the bent elbow, that's probably whats causing the higher speed. You're muscling the ball in your back swing. Try to let "gravity only" carry your ball from the point of dropping it down into the start of your back swing on your first step. When doing this, don't be concerned about targeting, try to "FEEL" the movement of your arm, keeping it as straight as possible throughout the backswing. No muscle/ effort until you hit your explosion /point of release. It will take practice, but you can do it.

Bob

[bowl1820]

The V in your swing sounds like what's called "chicken winging it".

He's not "chicken winging" he's just saying that he holds the ball up by his shoulder and his arm is bent like a "V".

He's holding way to high.

A Chicken wing is when is the elbow get's away from your body during the swing. You throw it out and come around the ball too much.

ED:
Suggest you read this:
Sept. 2011 "Control your Roll" by Bryan O'Keefe.

http://classic.bowl.com/usbowler/USBowler_Sept_2011_PDF.pdf


Also take a look at this thread:
http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/9944-Speed-question

[The German Shepherd]

Theoretically, the higher you hold the ball, the more speed you create...

Jay

[billf]

Jay, that's thinking from a bygone era due to the creation of more lift on the ball. That exaggerated lift is not needed with today's equipment. I start with the ball by my knee and can still hit 20mph. Big speed changes happen with the tempo of the steps, not the swing. The ball will follow the feet.

As for the "V" position. If that's what you have been using then there is no way you have a free armswing. Pure, simple and undisputable. Move you arm where it belongs and read Joe Slowinski's article on the hinge release at www.bowlingknowledge.info the hinge release is the best thing since rubber bowling balls.

[edpup316]

As for the "V" position. If that's what you have been using then there is no way you have a free armswing. Pure, simple and undisputable.


Oh how i disagree so much with you on this. I will be posting a video either tomorrow or monday so you gentelmen can see me bowl and maybe assist me further. Thank you for much for all the posts thus far. I'm reallying trying to get my game in the best shape before i bowl my first regional.

[The German Shepherd]

Jay, that's thinking from a bygone era <snip>

Yikes. That is what you get for taking a dozen-and-a-half years off the sport. I have sooooo much to re-learn...:/ Still, if you hold the ball very low, doesn't this require muscling the ball back in order to create your swing arc??

Jay

[edpup316]

Yikes. That is what you get for taking a dozen-and-a-half years off the sport. I have sooooo much to re-learn...:/ Still, if you hold the ball very low, doesn't this require muscling the ball back in order to create your swing arc??

Not if your goal is to decrease your speed. In billf's example of him starting the ball below his waist by his knee you would most certainly need to muscle the ball to try to get it up to 20 mph.

Those that muscle the ball i dont think would benefit as much from changing the there ball start position because they are still muscling the ball to their original hieght on the back swing but people how have a free arm swing would obviously benefit much more because gravity is the whole basis of their arm swing so if you hold it high and push out its going to go faster then if you holder it lower and push out.

[J Anderson]

Not if your goal is to decrease your speed. In billf's example of him starting the ball below his waist by his knee you would most certainly need to muscle the ball to try to get it up to 20 mph.

Those that muscle the ball i dont think would benefit as much from changing the there ball start position because they are still muscling the ball to their original hieght on the back swing but people how have a free arm swing would obviously benefit much more because gravity is the whole basis of their arm swing so if you hold it high and push out its going to go faster then if you holder it lower and push out.

The old method of increasing speed was based on the idea that the longer amount of time that gravity has to work on the ball the higher the speed will be. If you stand at the foul line and do either a no step or a one step delivery you can probably prove this to be true. You will also find that there is a limit to how fast you can make the ball go and its nowhere near your normal speed.

The newer method described in the links in BOWL1820's post depends on changing the speed of your feet. the lower swing gives less time to get to the foul line and the increase in bowler velocity more than makes up for the slight loss in rotational velocity from the lower starting position.

[bowl1820]

Just some rambling thoughts here:

There's a old book "Bowling: Knowledge is Key" by Fred Borden in it there's a part where he talks about "vertical placement" (Holding the ball higher or lower).

In it he talks about not holding it higher or lower to increase or decrease speed. But use it as a way of controlling arm swing timing to match the tempo of your feet movements. Raising the ball retards the arm swing in relation to the feet movement, lowering the ball advances the arm swing timing in relation to the feet movements

So Bowlers with a naturally fast tempo, hold the ball lower to match up with their footwork. Those with a slower tempo, hold the ball higher because it retards the swing.

Now if holding the ball higher retards the swing, that would mean it would be basically a longer, slower swing. And so the higher you hold it, the longer and slower the swing be.

Now if your trying to increase speed , using a longer and slower swing wouldn't help. You would wind up having to accelerate your arm through that longer, slower swing. Not only To make up for the speed you lost with the longer swing, but to get that extra speed you wanted in the first place. That would mean adding muscle to the swing, but muscling isn't something we want to do.

Now if you increase or decrease speed using foot work (as Bryan O'Keefe's article suggests). then using a lower ball height for faster and higher one for slower makes makes sense, because it's just matching up the swing timing with the foot work. Plus you can still have a free swing, with no muscles involved to increase the speed.

It just seemed to me that you could infer from Fred's idea above, that if you wanted to increase ball speed by faster footwork. You would have to hold the ball lower. And that is the basic idea put forth by Bryan O'Keefe's article. Increase ball speed by holding ball lower with faster footwork. Hold higher with slower footwork for slower ball speed. So to me it would seem to support Bryan's idea.

It's kind of a old idea, now new again.

I know it got rambling there.

[billf]

It's not rambling when you put it in such a way so everybody can grasp the idea. As for the "push away" comment posted previously, if you're still using the push away instead of the hinge method, you are losing out. Rhino Page starts with the ball low and doesn't muscle it into the backswing.

[edpup316]

There is two angles in the video. It changes about 2:40 in and i missed and edit so you might see my gf's mom in there also. Let me know what you think!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmbmMk-rP6U&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmbmMk-rP6U&feature=youtu.be

[billf]

I saw the video including the left handed female. I stand by what I said earlier that you disagree with. That is a muscled swing, not a free arm swing. You force the last part of the back swing and come slightly behind your back. Two more factors in a muscled swing. You're three for three. I do like the ball speed.

[edpup316]

I agree that i muscle it at the end which for me is a big improvement from my fully controlled swing i use to have. Anybody else want to take a shot at me? I want to get rid of any flaws i have as quickly as possible.

[jimlc2001]

I did notice that you fell a couple times to the right when you really over muscled the ball. Not sure how to correct it, but slowing down my tempo usually resolves the problem for me.

[Tampabaybob]

The video does show you appearing to muscle the ball quite a bit. Part of your (perceived) ball speed problem is also the sped of your footwork. I agree with Jimic that you're falling to the right after delivery on a few shots. Try to maintain your balance on your slide foot until the ball drops off of the pin deck. "Usually" if you slow down your fist step, that can correct your speed.

Anytime you fall to the right after delivery, your feet are too fast and you're getting to the line ahead of your ball. If you fall to the left, your ball is ahead of you. Watch some others as they bowl and see if they fall one way or the other and you'll see what I mean. Your approach steps should be slow, slow, quick, quick. I think you're very close to being there, just a touch too fast on a few shots.

Ok, just watched the video again, and noticed that when you're off balance for right leg behind you is really kicking up hard. One of the shots, where your remain balanced, you didn't kick your leg as hard, and it stayed closer to the floor. try keeping your right leg a little lower ( if not even having your foot on the floor) and that should also help maintain your balance at the line.

Good video, try some of these ideas and post another video.

Bob