I can't win

[RoccoRock]

I've posted on multiple threads about how I am in between styles, and it seams every time I am set on one style something changes. Well, here we go again. I was set on going back to one hand no thumb. It's the style I've used most over the last two plus years, and I've done well with it. Then, last night after bowling only two games, my wrist was killing me. It's the one thing I feared with that style, and the reason I considered dropping to 14 pounds. Because you have to cup it so much, and the weight if the ball is almost exclusively in the hand, it's very taxing. I tried using my forarm more, and that causes consistency issues, and I have to cup my hand even more, so it doesn't help. So basically, as usual, the one thing I was set one, I can't do anymore. I bowled a few games with my thumb in, my wrist felt much better. The biggest problem is my best score was only as good as my league average. My buddy is sitting there telling me how good it looks, and it looks smoother and I should stick with that. I bowled a 103 at one point. I just can't get the hang of it. Then of course I tried going back to two handed, 223, 191, 234, 173, 197, 221. Don't know what to do, keep trying to force myself to do something I'm not good at, with hopes that I get better someday fairly soon, or go with something that I know I can do well, and hope to not have physical issues any time soon. To be clear, I've never had pain, at all from two handing. I know a lit of you have already given me the advise, and it's on other threads, I'm kind of just venting a little. At this point I know I am on my own, and I can't always listen to what people say. Just frustrated right now.

[bowl1820]

I'll say this, You have to commit to one style or the other. You'll never have consistency jumping back and forth between styles.

If one style is causing you pain, then the choice has been made for you.

If that choice is bowling using your thumb in the ball, Then You need to stick with and practice at it.

Plus work on the mental game! If you sit there thinking you'll do bad or be in a big rush to improve, You will do bad.

Go into with a attitude that you will work hard, practice and succeed and if it takes time so be it. Work at it , don't try to rush it and improvement will come.


Norm Duke on the Mental Game

Knowing your strengths and weaknesses

Another part of developing my mental game was recognizing that I have weaknesses. I learned a long time ago that you can practice for two or three hours on something that you’re very good at, but you will improve very little. If you want to improve quicker, you should take something that you really stink at and dedicate resources to that weakness and make it your advantage. Keep an open mind so that you can actually recognize your weaknesses because sometimes they’re not easy to find unless you’re looking for them.

[RoccoRock]

I know my mental game is getting better. In the past, when thing went bad in a game, they went horrible, and I never recovered. I never could bowl a 200+ game after bowling a sub average game. Recently, I've been able to slow down, figure out what wrong, and get on track. That's one of the things that bugs me about using my thumb. I know I can do it, I know how to do it, I feel comfortable, so why do I stink. The shop pro even told me, I look good doing it, and if I can just get my thumb clear in every shot I'll be fine. I had no issues with my thumb last night, at least that I noticed. But again, I started spraying the ball all over, missing easy spares, and my hook totally went away. I'll keep working on it for the rest of this month, and see where I'm at. For now, I'll use two handed as a last resort, if I "need" to score. I think no matter what, unless I want my wrist to hurt for the rest of my life, one hand no thumb is out.

[RoccoRock]

I'm thinking of giving in, and getting a wrist positioning device. It couldn't hurt right now. They just look sooooo goofy, then again so does bowling with two hands lol.

[RoccoRock]

So I just got back fom a quick practice. 4 games, all thumb in, aside from a few spares. First two games 149, 157. At the end of the second game I noticed something. I'm getting more revs, and my ball is hooking more. So, I move in two boards, 217, 269. Now that's an encouraging practice. Game three I started with a split, then 6 straight strikes, then another split. Then went spare spare strike for the finish. Game four, statted by hitting flush, left the 10 pin. Picked it up two handed, then 4 strikes, another flush 10 pin, picked it up two handed again, then ran the table. My second best game ever, and every ball was in the pocket. Now, can I even come close to doing that again next time I practice.

[J Anderson]

So I just got back fom a quick practice. 4 games, all thumb in, aside from a few spares. First two games 149, 157. At the end of the second game I noticed something. I'm getting more revs, and my ball is hooking more. So, I move in two boards, 217, 269. Now that's an encouraging practice. Game three I started with a split, then 6 straight strikes, then another split. Then went spare spare strike for the finish. Game four, statted by hitting flush, left the 10 pin. Picked it up two handed, then 4 strikes, another flush 10 pin, picked it up two handed again, then ran the table. My second best game ever, and every ball was in the pocket. Now, can I even come close to doing that again next time I practice.

If you did it once you can do it again, and eventually you'll do it when it counts!

[billf]

The angle is so different between the three styles. Is there a possibility that you were playing the wrong line with your thumb in all along? Given how that practice went, I know you can do it and do it extremely well. Confidence is a huge part of the game and it seems as though you doubt your ability thumb in.

[RoccoRock]

The angle is so different between the three styles. Is there a possibility that you were playing the wrong line with your thumb in all along? Given how that practice went, I know you can do it and do it extremely well. Confidence is a huge part of the game and it seems as though you doubt your ability thumb in.

Actualy, the line I played today was similar to the line I usualy play with no thumb, and two handed. I think it was the combination of the stronger ball, the bigger thumb hole which I really liked, and more revs so I can get a little more hook. Also, I moved my starting postion back about a step, but mad sure that I kept my pace. I think it made for a longer, but more controled and solid slide. I think it also made my timing with my arm swing better. I'll post the video soon, and you guys can pick it apart. I felt good, and I think next time I go out (probably Friday) that it will be solid. I don't so much as doubt myself with my thumb in, but I am always dissapointed with the results.

[RoccoRock]

Sorry for the crappy quality, and terrible angle. It's from my phone propped up by my sneakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEfJ6E4U-GY

[GeorgiaStroker]

I'm not qualified enough to speak of the technical aspects but the first thing I noticed was that you wipe your hands after every shot but you never wiped the ball. You really need to make this part of your pre-shot routine. Today's balls soak up a
Lot of oil and not wiping between every shot will change the ball reaction in an inconsistent manner. A clean ball is one less variable to worry about. Other than that it looks good to me. You can't argue with results.

[RoccoRock]

Nice catch, I did not notice that. I do wipe the ball often, but maybe not often enough. I guess I was in a zone and wasn't thinking about that.

[striker12]

ok the style i seen you throwing was a tweener but u did not have that much acuracy u where throwing it all over the place and the ball was coming back in but when you threw it out farthere u put more rev on it cause i seen u wanted to make it go down the lane on the same line. but im thinking u had a nice 2 handed spare shot that u should try doing 2 handed for awhile because your 2 handed shot had good acuracy to hit that 10pin.


but in everything else was good balance was good it was jsut u where changing your speed in your shot and revs witch takes time to get under controll i have been doing my shot for awhile and im still working on mine i got my speed o the ball down but the revs not yet and my release is another problem for me im doing different releases msot of the time but out of 1 game i got about half of it with the rev that i want, it just takes time to get the hang of it and get the accuracy down perfectly.

[billf]

I didn't watch the last minute. I got tired of waiting for it to buffer lol. Biggest thing I noticed; in your stance, your feet are backwards. Your right foot is ahead of your left instead of vice-versa. Not sure how much of a difference it really makes although I was taught that it causes the body to be too closed up (or too square to the foul line).
I was real glad to hear that I'm not the only one to prop the camera/phone up with their sneakers lol.

[RoccoRock]

Yes, the second shot on that video I got way too wide. I even said to myself after that shot "thank god for house patterns." The 4tha shot also got a touch wider than i aimed, probably the reason for leaving the 10. As far as the spare shot, yes, right now I am more accurate two handed. That is not how I throw my strikes two handed, for that spare, and only that spare I stand up straighter, push yo the left, and loft it. I don't have any good two handed videos to posy, or I would put up comparison video. I'm hoping with time I can get one handed as accurate as two. My spare ball is all messed up, the thumb is offset, a lot, and it's semi fingertip, because when I two hand semi fingertip feels better. That's also why I throw that 10 pin two handed.

[RoccoRock]

I didn't watch the last minute. I got tired of waiting for it to buffer lol. Biggest thing I noticed; in your stance, your feet are backwards. Your right foot is ahead of your left instead of vice-versa. Not sure how much of a difference it really makes although I was taught that it causes the body to be too closed up (or too square to the foul line).
I was real glad to hear that I'm not the only one to prop the camera/phone up with their sneakers lol.

Next time out I will try reversing my feet in my stance. My stupid phone stinks, it used to take great video, now it's all choppy, and misses stuff compleatly.

[RoccoRock]

Here's another thing I have been considering when thinking about what style to use. Money is really tight around my house with a 2 month old. So, it may sound crazy, and just flat out the wrong reason to do it, but if I go with two handed, it's much cheaper to buy a ball. I have to use high end balls one handed, but two handed I use mid to low end balls two handed, so I'm saving $50 to $100 right off the top, plus I don't need to put in the sleeve for the Switch Grip. I was looking at prices today of a Critcal Theory, or Defiant and for what they cost I can get almost get two balls for two handing.

[bowl1820]

I didn't watch the last minute. I got tired of waiting for it to buffer lol. Biggest thing I noticed; in your stance, your feet are backwards. Your right foot is ahead of your left instead of vice-versa. Not sure how much of a difference it really makes although I was taught that it causes the body to be too closed up (or too square to the foul line).
I was real glad to hear that I'm not the only one to prop the camera/phone up with their sneakers lol.

Here is what your referring to billf:
http://s11.postimage.org/xdwth02oz/foot_pos.jpg

When the feet are parallel to each other, it gives you a more direct trajectory. (Closed)
With the right/left foot slightly back, you get a medium trajectory.
With the right/left foot back, you get a open trajectory. (Open)

When you do this, you should also rotate your hips accordingly.

[billf]

Nice graph that I'm sure will help. His left foot was actually further behind the right which as the graph would show if it continued, causes a left trajectory.

[RoccoRock]

Definatly a helpful tool there. I'm gonna hit the lanes tomorrow at work, and I'm gonna work on that.

[billf]

Don't be surprised or get too upset if you find yourself off balance at first. Like any change, it will feel strange.

[RoccoRock]

I bowled another 4 games between Friday and today, to see if I could repeat, or even come close to what I did earlier this week. Friday, 162, 159. So, I was depressed, and questioning my abilty to use my thumb, as usual. I did not give up though, and I know what I did wrong. I went today, first game I had 103through 9 frames, and off an open. So moved in two boards, and tried to stay behind the ball more, and get good rotation. I struck out the 10th. Then, second game today, I amost exactly matched my effort from earlier this week. 9, spare, 6 strikes in a row, 8 spare, 3 in a row, 9 on the last fill ball. 267, my third best game ever. So I have had 2 of my 3 best ever games this week, all with my thumb in the ball. Looks like I am headed in the right direction.

[RoccoRock]

I was working on the starting position of my feet as well, and that may have been what screwed me up on Friday. 1- I was concentrating on my feet so much, I forgot to use my hand to actually throw the ball, and 2-I switched my stance, but started in the same spot. So my right foot was about a shoe length further back, putting me too far from the foul line. I'm getting there, and the fact I had two of my beat games ever, on two different days, at two different lanes, with two different balls only 3 days apart, has me really excited that I can do this. I've wanted to convert to a conventional delivery for almost a year now, but never even got close to being good at it. With the help of a coach, a lot of practice, and good advice from people on this site, I've been able to do it. I'm a little nervous that next time out, I'll forget everything, and go back to sucking. Just got to remember to slow my feet, loose arm swing, get behind the ball, and get it off my thumb first so I can roll it off my fingers. I also have to remember that even if I'm inconsistent, and struggle here or there, I had those same issues without my thumb in the ball. Heck, I had a practice game just 9 weeks ago with no thumb, and I bowled a 99. That wasn't messing around either, I was really trying. I'm going light on bowling this week, I may not get out until next week. Maybe I'll write down all the stuff I said, and put it in my bag, so I can remember my fundamentals next time out.

[billf]

Put a tip or two on masking tape, in marker, and put it on the toes of your shoes. College players do it all the time and the better high school coaches teach it also.

[RoccoRock]

Did the tape on the shoe trick two weeks ago, and it's still there. It just says SLOW DOWN!

[RoccoRock]

Ok, now I am fully committed to one hand. I have my driller working on two new (well, used, but new to me) balls for me, both for one hand. At this point, to switch back would be a financial disaster. I have 3 good balls for one hand now, and only one ball for two handing. At this point, I am all in, I am probably even going to convert my only two hand ball as well. If I can't do it now, I am screwed.

[billf]

You can do it and have been doing well lately. Just don't get so discouraged every time you have a bad game or night. You will be fine.

[RoccoRock]

Today was the first day, in a while, that I was at ease when thinking about bowling. I've either been debating in my head what style to stick with, or throwing a ball constantly at work, or chomping at the bit to go bowling at lunch. The last two days my head was spinning thinking about buying a ball. Today, I know what style I am using, I am waiting for my new equipment to get done before I get out and bowl, and I feel that the two balls I am getting were the right choice. Feels good to be relaxed, I was even able to get out and jog 5 miles today! I've been so preoccupied with my bowling plans, I've been slacking on my workouts for a while.

[RoccoRock]

Hit the lanes today, just to try a few things, and see what happens. No really bad games at all this time, in fact I have reversed my trend. My worst game was around my average, and most were higher. I was trying a higher backswing, mixed results. I tried aiming at the arrows insted of the dots, no good at all. I tried a sneaker on my right foot, that was excellent. Most important, I am getting super comfortable with my new delivery. My arm swing is nice and loose, I definatly have more revs, and I am smoother than ever. I took more video today, and looked it over and I was impressed. I finally feel like I am bowling, not just chuckin' a ball down the lanes. I'm no longer in a rush to "get good." I am were I need to be with my league coming up. My scores match what I was doing two handed, or palming the ball. I can't wait to pick up my VGNP, and Outlaw. I have a feeling I am going to be using that Outlaw a whole lot in the league. I have never felt this stress free about my game. There is something to this whole thumb thing ;)

[billf]

Sounds like it's time to change that signature again. I vote for the last sentence of the above post.

[RoccoRock]

Sounds like it's time to change that signature again. I vote for the last sentence of the above post.

Good, call. The change has been made, even added a little something that's I've been thinking of for a while. Now I have to update it every day.

[billf]

Love it. A twelve step program for recovering two handers? lol

[RoccoRock]

Love it. A twelve step program for recovering two handers? lol
Well, in the spirit of bowling, it's only be a 5 step program, or 4 for some people. It's just like drinking, a lot of people do it socially, and don't have a problem, but some of us know it leads to self destructive behavior, and needs to stop.

[billf]

I have no problem with 2 handers but I do wonder how they will bowl when they get older. I can see Belmonte now on the Senior tour, he will be crouched at all times.

[RoccoRock]

That's exaclty what I say whe people ask "why did you switch from two handing?" Because I want to be able to bowl for a long time. I has that exact conversation with my driller, about Belmo. I told him watch, by the time he is in his late 30's early 40's, I bet he starts bowling one handed.

[J Anderson]

Well, in the spirit of bowling, it's only be a 5 step program, or 4 for some people. It's just like drinking, a lot of people do it socially, and don't have a problem, but some of us know it leads to self destructive behavior, and needs to stop.

Or three for me... oops two-handing isn't one of my addictions.

Seriously, while the majority of bowlers use 4 or 5 steps, three, six and seven step approaches are not all that uncommon. Norm Duke calls his approach 6 1/2 steps, Pete Weber takes 6, Mark Roth used to take 7 and the grand prize goes to Wayne Garber who used an 11 step approach in the TV finals a few years back after recovering from injuries to both knees.

[billf]

I've thought about going to six so my steps could be shorter yet still start at the same spot. Too bad I have so much going wrong at the moment to try it.

[RoccoRock]

Practiced with friends last week, and it wasn't good. I have to face it, I'll never be as good as I hope to be, heck I'm not even as good as I think I am. Tired of spending money I don't have to either fix things that aren't broken, or try things that in the end just won't make me any better. I also have spent too much time away from my family at bowling alleys trying to get better with no results. I have a child now, and she deserves my time, attention, and money. I'm just so frustrated, it's time to just go back to being a casual, recreational bowler who bowls his one league and that's it. I still love bowling, but I just have to dial the intensity back, and just have fun and not care as much about the results.

[billf]

Search the net. There are plenty of drills you can do at home and even make them into a play thing with your daughter. Waste the extra money on her, not bowling. Keep bowling but not at the expense of enjoying your family.

[RoccoRock]

Guess I'm just burnt out, and maybe feeling the pressure that the league starts next week and I'm still sucking more often than striking. I've had good games here or there, even great games, but even those games I noticed that I missed my marks more often than not, my rev rate is inconsistent, some throws I have a ton of side roll, some I have none. I just got lucky, and I was bowling on favorable lane conditions. I can't make the 10 pin to save my life, and every spare is an adventure. I've forced myself to use this delivery, and now I'm stuck with it. It's like a school project now. Yeah, it's smoother, and looks better, but it's an adventure. I'm not looking foward to the new season, I feel like I've totally screwed myself. My average, which sucks anyway, is going to go down. I'm going to cost my team games, I'm going to lose my match constantly, but everyone is going to say the same thing. 'It looks better." Great, thanks. I guess I should read into that a little bit. The people who are telling me how good it looks, and how I should stick with it, are the people I'm competing against. I would love it too if my opponents show up every week, and bowl 10-30 pins below there average.

[The Mayor]

I just want to say that from watching your video, you throw it just fine with all 3 fingers in. For someone who's been switching back and forth between styles, you get PLENTY of hook and your form could be very good with time. STICK WITH IT! This isn't the Matrix where you plug in and instantly know how to do something. It takes practice and dedication, but it's worth it. Remember, it's a GAME that is meant to be fun.

[RoccoRock]

you throw it just fine with all 3 fingers in. For someone who's been switching back and forth between styles, you get PLENTY of hook.

It's not about the amount of hook. That's a common myth about guys like me. "You take your thumb out just so you can hook it more." No, I can hook it fine with my thumb in, especially now. It's about hitting my marks, and having a consistant delivery. I bowled today, first two games thumb in. First game, was eehhhh, second game was terrible. Some shots went right were I wanted, some just flew off to never never land. My rev rate is definatly going up, after playing with tape in the thumb, and even on my fingers. Again, the problem is consistancy, and repeatability. Bowling with one hand just feels forced, like I'm making myself do it. I hear everyone with the it takes time, and you can't expect to be good right away, but it's not like I just started doing this yesterday. I've been working on this in practice for over a year. In the same amount of time, with roughly the same amount of games, I've worked on two handing. Again, I hear you all, stick with one thing. Again, that's fine, but if bowling two handed is screwing up my one handed game, shouldn't the opposite be true as well? Why doesn't bowling one handed ruin my two handed game? After I got done dying on the lanes one haned today, I tried two handed. I haven't throw a ball two handed in almost a month. What happened? Take one guess. 5 games, only one wasn't over 200 (that was a game I was messing with a new ball, still saved a 185 out of it after a terrible start) and it's wasn't all strikes, I made most of my spares. I made every ten pin, only opens were a few splits, and one tough spare. The only really bad shots were when I lost my balance a little. Most of my throws were right were I aimed it, consistant ball speed, rotation and axis. I used my 607a, which has contrasting colors, so when you see the same pattern over and over you know you are doing it right. It's not about "big hook" or "throwing it hard" it's about being able to throw the ball the same way every time. I just feel more natural two handing, my footwork is much more suited for two handing. I'm gonna keep working on one handed as a side project, but when the league start next week, I'm gonn be two handing. Maybe I can post a video of m two handing, and you can tell me what you guy think of that.

[RoccoRock]

I'm going to hit the lanes in a few minutes and give it another shot. I watched the video from yesterdays session, and I saw some things that needed tweaking. My backswing was too high, my feet were too quick, almost like I was in a rush to get to the foul line. I was turning my shoulder too much, I was almost turning my back to my target. Gonna slow down, be smooth and gentile. If that doesn't work, I'm gonna switch to two handed, and be fast and nasty! I think I was uncomfortable last 2 times out because I was too aggressive one handing. So I'm gonna be nice, sweet talk the ball a little, take some deep breathes. Maybe that's why one hand doesn't work for me, cause I'm a loud aggressive guy. When I play football, or softball, I am all energy, all out 100% of the time. That's probably why my feet are quick, and I'm off balance at times. I have a note on my shoe to slow down, I have to pay attention to it.

[RoccoRock]

Ok, tired it again, and I still had trouble. Switched to two handed, and even though it wasn't always good, I had so much fun doing it. Of the 9 games I bowled 2 handed, 5 were over 200, the rest were still above my average even tough they weren't that good. I finally missed a 10 pin two haned, but only one, I made it the other 5 or 6 times I left it. I'll probably post a video soon, even though my best throws weren't on tape, I'll just post watever I haveeven though I wasn't doing well during that time.

[billf]

Fix your signature. You're a bowler not a bolwer. You right hand is faster than the left.

[RoccoRock]

Fix your signature. You're a bowler not a bolwer. You right hand is faster than the left.

fixed, thanks. Here's the two handed video, not my best, but ok.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8w2YFQE8MM&feature=g-upl

[billf]

I hate typos.
Do you target the same distance two-handed as one-handed? What do you target? I'm just wondering if that may be part of your one-handed lack of consistency. Some recent research has also shown that form, not focus, hits the mark. Ron Clifton had a friend do this blind folded and was still within two boards. But elite athletes seem to have a different set of standards.

[RoccoRock]

I have tried adusting my target distance one handed, didn't help. I usualy target at the first set of dots. I was told not to do that, because if you miss by a board at the dots, it's like 3 boards at the pins. So I moved my targets to the arrows, and that really didn't help. In fact, my big games one handed, I was targeting at the dots. I do the same with two handed, at the dots. I've tried the arrows two handed, and that works well sometimes. I do agree with that form over focus theory, although I dare not test is by blindfolding myself.

[RoccoRock]

Ok, I'm going to give it one more shot today. I'm going to bowl 4 games, at least the first 2 thumb in. Yesterdays struggles I think were due to too much tape in the thumb. I think the more relaxed, lower backswing delivery is better for me, but in order to do that I need a little breathing room in the thumb. Even if I can't do it, I'm fine with being a 2 hander now. I bowled 15 games in two days and I feel great. No knee pain, no back pain, and no hand pain. You can see I don't want to give up on one hand, I keep trying trying trying. I can tell you this, yesterday, bowling those 9 games two handed, I was having fun. I was laughing and smiling, even when I wasn't doing great. In the end, it's all about fun, I'll never be good enough to compete at anything other than a local level, so I just have to have fun.

[striker12]

rocco its ahrd to get out of 2 handed bowling trust me i use to do it but then i messed up my left shoulder so i had to go to 1 handed took me some time t first i have like no backswing but after 3 years of almost no backswing now i do have a decent backswing.

from what i just seen you say you are putting your self down thinking you dont have enoph skill to go agenst alot of other people but think of this you go ther eu get the feeling you have fun and ask people there for info thats what i did at my first ever prov i have scared cause i did not want to mess up but if anything i got 7th in the doubles and i carryed the team in the team event with a 649 series and we got 14th cause the people who beat us wher sandbaggers they had 140 avg and they where shooting 210+ games.

but think its fun and a learning experience im still not sure if i want to do natinals or the YBT(you bowling tour). but i will get over it in time and i will jsut go and still be scared cause i have never done this before but its a learning experience.

but one thing you should never do is put your self down in anything. because if you put your self down liek you jsut sead in the lst post you will never have enoph convendance to do what you can do but you jsut dont know you can do it.

[billf]

And the results were?
Why not keep bowling both ways. A game and a B game. If it was easy, anybody would be able to do it well.
Targeting the dots doesn't bother me at all. Wes Malott does it and I'm fairly sure he doesn't give a rats *** what anybody says about it. The gist of the 3 point targeting system is; the earlier the focal point, the earlier the roll. Likewise, the later the focal point the later the roll. Since I've been using that Joe Slowinski knowlegde my targeting ability has improved and I can control the time of the roll by moving my focal point. Eye dominance had a good point that may play into this. Both styles have the bowler in a different angle when releasing the ball. Some bowlers have a flawed eye to hand coordination. They can't hit the mark they want. They consistently hit the same distance to one side. I.E. bowler A aims at 18 but rolls over 20 (60 out of 100) times 60% of the time. Now, did he miss 60% of the time to the left or did he miss to the right 40% of the time? Coach moves bowler A's target two boards right. Now bowler A hits the 18 board 70% of the time and that increases every week. Why? The geometry that his brain uses for hand eye coordination gave him an illusion during delivery that caused him to see his target 2" to the left. Moving the focal point 2" right not only compensated for the lateral difference but gave him confidence to trust that spot. That confidence is what accounted for the 10% immediate increase and the ever increasing increase.

*on a funny side note. Half the time I couldn't tell you what my focal point was. My head stays still but my eyes tend to wander. This has been an issue since my eye sight was restored in January. There have even been times where I go to bowl and turn around to ask, "what line was I playing?". That even happened after starting out with the front 8. Got up there and just couldn't remember where I was standing the previous frames. It wasn't nerves, I just move around a lot.

[striker12]

bill ik what u mean by not remember wher ou where standing one day in are summer league that sjut went by they where useing the spray ashfault outside in the parking lot and they sprayed it under the vent that brings air into the bowling allie in the 3rd game not one of use would remember where are line was or even remember what we doing after we threw the ball i almsot fell a few times jsut doing my approach cause i was soo light headed that my first 2 games wher good 187-210-then a 110 but not one person shot over a 180 in there 3rd games and most of the people there could bowl 200 easy.

[RoccoRock]

And the results were?


Not good. Only bowled 2 games, then I had to go, so I didn't learn anything. Well that's not totally true, the last 3 shots I tried something, but didn't have time to keep do it for a full game.



Why not keep bowling both ways. A game and a B game. If it was easy, anybody would be able to do it well.

You are the first person to ever suggest that, well except for myself. Ususally it's the same old line. "Do one thing, stick with that and get good at it." Why do two different things? Because I can. There are good things to both, so I'll keep doing what I'm doing and if no one wants to give me advice anymore then so be it.

[floridanative772]

I would do what is working for you. If you are capable of bowling well with both styles then go for it. There's nothing wrong with being able to switch it up, could be useful. Hell ive considered trying to bowl lefty to take advantage of the left side of the lane lol

[billf]

I'm not exactly the most conventional bowler. I use different styles, releases and even bowl left handed at times. The way I view going from 2 handing to 1 handed is the same as throwing stroker style one game and cranking the next. Versatility and knowing when to use what is what makes good bowlers better and the better bowler great.

[RoccoRock]

Tonight was the first night of the new league season. As always, I kept things interesting, and kept everyone wondering what I was going to do next. I honestly had no idea what style I would use until I got to my lanes. The approach was very slippery, so I thought it may be best to one hand. Two handing in those conditions just seemed like it would be a problem. I threw both ways in warmups, and I was correct. One hand was the way to go. First game, 198. That's a little deciving, it was a so so game, but in the 2nd frame I started a string of 4 strikes. Most of those were lucky. Semcomd game was not going well, and then in the 8th frame, something interesting happened. I hurt my back a little bit. So, one of the things I was hoping to avoid by NOT two handing, happened one handing instead. I left a wierd spare after that painfull throw. So I took the spare shot two handed, and made it. Strike in 9, then first 2 in the tenth. saved a 189 out of it by two handing the finish. I figure if my back hurts one handed, may as well two hand. Two handed the entire third game, for a disspointing 180. I was trying to change my target points, and ended up messing myself up. I'll try tow handing next practice, with my usual target points. As for one handed, I don't know. In reality, even though the scores were different, the games were all similar. I threw about the same amount of strikes in each game, missed exaclty 2 spares in each of the three games, and made or missed similar spares. Made all my single pin spares no matter what, really only missed splits. I may drill that Fire Road I won here, and have it layed out for two handing.

[billf]

Those were actually good scores. Hope your back feels better soon!

[RoccoRock]

My back feels fine, thanks. I'll tell you the biggest difference between one, and two handed. When theball hit the pocket one handed, it was soft. Even when it was a strike, it was like the ball was made of pillows. Two handed, it sounded like thunder. It almost hurt my ears the first time I threw it.

We also had a bout of bad sportsmanship from our opponents last night. My buddy, who had a 135 average, started of with a 9, then 4 strikes in a row. As he grabs his ball for the 6th frame, a lady on the other team says to him "so when are you going to throw a gutter ball?" I can't stand that. This same team, last year a different team member made a similar comment to me after I wrecked him the first game, and bowled 50 pins above my average. "So are you going to bowl anywhere near your average this game?" They are just old, bitter jerks who think everyone is sandbagging. They don't understand that some people get better, or just have a hot night. I hate that crap.

[billf]

I lost my first game Tuesday. Everyone could tell I was upset about losing (to a guy I should easily beat). He bowled his highest game ever and I didn't hit my average. The next game I poured it on. I wasn't just striking but demolishing the pins. A couple of guys on the other team made comments. I just said I needed to redeem myself after the first game. After the 6th frame they all said I redeemed myself and then some. I beat my opponent by 103 pins. I bowled great and he came back to Earth. It happens but I don't have to like it.

Hitting the pocket light like that either the ball was burning up early or you were off two boards on the approach.

[RoccoRock]

Picked up my Virtual Gravity Nano yesterday, so for now I'm all in with one handed. I'm not even bringing a two hand specific ball Thursday. I think I have the feel for the thumb hole that I've been looking for, and I think I can get it off my hand the way I want. I used the Vise Hada Patch last week, and that worked well. It kept my thumb from getting rubbed raw, and it got the ball off my thumb faster. I'll give myself a few more weeks, if I can keep up my average, or raise it, I'll be happy. If it goes down, then the game plan may have to change.

[billf]

Glad the thumb fit feels good. Are you really all in one-handed? Every time you say it then a bad streak comes along you abandon it, then return. Bowling is like a relationship, there for the good, the bad and the ugly.

[RoccoRock]

If I don't bring a ball for two handing, I can't do it. That's the goal this week, leave those balls at home. When I two hand, the balls I use have a semi fingertip grip. All my one handed balls are finger tip. I can't bowl two handed with finger tips, just feels terrible. That's may be the only way to do it, give myself no choice. Yes, I waiver here and there, but I keep coming back to one handed. Even if I had a crappy practice with it last time out, every time I start a new practice session, or even the league, I start one handed. I had one good solid month, where every game was one hand, it's only the last 3 or 4 times out I tried going back to two handed. I think I was feeling the pressure of the league starting, and not wanting to let my team down. So knowing I can two hand for a "quick fix" I started messing with it again. I found myslef very relaxed Thursday when I was one handing. Going two handed this week was a mistake. Instead, I should have worked on why I started to lose my one handed game. One of my issues is it takes me forever to make adjustments, and to realize what I'm doing wrong. I also don't have the type of teammates who can watch me, and tell me what I'm doing wrong. Usually their answer is, "drink a lot, then you won't care how you bowl."

[billf]

Pressure is tough especially when it's self-inflicted. For adjustments, I try to remember something I heard Chris Barnes say; better to move too soon and leave a makeable spare than too late and leave a split. You obviously care about your team but do the others?

[RoccoRock]

They care how we do as a team, but not enough to practice, and learn more about bowling, and get better. They are good guys, and they don't put pressure on me to carry the team, I do that to myself. If I have a bad game, it doesn't bother them, they won't blame me if we lose and I sucked. Really only one guy drinks, and gives me his great "advice." It makes me laugh, because I struggled a lot, especially early, last season. He would always look at me and say, "why are your getting mad?" I would tell him cause I bowl two good games, then throw away a 600+ series with one stinker. Early in the second half, he had a few good weeks. One week, he was on pace for a 600 series, his first ever. He blew it, and he got pissed. He turned to me and said "now I know why get mad." I told him however mad you are, triple than for me. I have bowled 600 series, I averaged 196 for over half of a summer season. So when I miss a 600, it's way more frustrating. Back to my one handed game, I am picking up a new spare ball this week (I hope) with a Switch Grip sleeve in it, so I can compleate my one handed arsenal. My spare ball is all screwed up, I have the tumb hole drilled offset too much, and no slug, and the fingers holes are cracked. It's the second White Dot that has done that on me. My Track 607A has the same issues. No more Ebonite products for me. I wanted to get a Storm spare ball, but my pro shop just got in the DV8 Zombie spare ball. I can't help myself. Just hope it holds up better than the White Dots.

[billf]

Does it look as cool in person as the pics?
Save your receipt, 2 year warranty lol

[RoccoRock]

Does it look as cool in person as the pics?
Save your receipt, 2 year warranty lol

Dude, it looks sick. All the guys I bowl with play games like Left 4 Dead, and love any zombie games, and movies. They are gonna love my new ball. I really really hope I have it by Thursday. Recipt will be saved for sure. They way I see, a two year warranty is perfect, 2 years ona spare ball is enough. By the time the warranty is up, I'll be looking for a new ball anyway.

[RoccoRock]

Brought out the new VG Nano, left all my two handing equipment at home, and went for it one haded, thumb in the whole way. 139, 188, 123. Yup, and that's on a THS, easy *** oil pattern in a recreational league. It gets worse, I bowled to practice games, 135, 178. I almost got kicked out of the league because I slammed my phone. So I am one of "those guys" and I can't bowl. I am an idiot, I get good at something, then decide to spend hundreds of dollars that I don't have, to do something else I'm not good at. And I keep going back to it, as bad as it is, and I just don't get any better at it. What's the old saying, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I'm insane to bowl one handed. The sad part is, I've talked my way out of two handing, so how can I go back to that? On this page alone, just a few days ago look what I was saying about two handed. The good thing is everyone knows I'm a liar, and a fraud anyway, so going back would just be further proof. I wish I could just quit, sell all my useless stuff. I have never been so frustrated, and humiliated by my bowling. I wish I could re establish my average, because I'm going to kill my team by bowling with a 178 average, and thowing 130's. I feel sick.

[billf]

And next week you could very well shoot a mid 700 series, or higher. This game is very frustrating and not nearly as easy as the pros make it look.

[RoccoRock]

I looked at last years stats, and this series is worse than any series I had last year. I had a terible start last year becuase I nearly broke my finger when a ball fell on it. So I bowled one finger last year, and still bowled better than my wonderful 3 finger delivery. It's been a month since I had a good game one handed. Not series, game. I've never had a good series with this delivery, even in practice. I have a better chance of bowling a sub 400 series than a 700. If I even bowled a 600 series I would feel like I just won the U.S. Open.

[RoccoRock]

I'm so sick of hearing, "your going to have bad games, don't get upset." No, really, I thought every game I bowled was going to be a 300 with my thumb in. I thought it was magic. I don't have good games, then a bad one here or there. I have bad games, and a good one here or there. Also sick of "give it time." I'm not a noob, I've been bowling for years. I should be able to bowl decent one handed, even if the style is "new" to me. It's so new, I bowled like this in 1996. I also don't show up and bowl 3 games a week, and hope to get better in a year or so. I bowl a lot of games, and I practice a ton, without keeping score. Those practices usualy suck as well. I'm tired of seeing the ball come off my hand and go in a different place every time. I'm tired of seeing inconsistant roatatio, and axis. I'm tired of seeing the ball come off my hand great, super smooth, and hitting the 3 pin dead on. Then throw a crap shot that stuck to my thumb, go half way down the lane in the air, almost gutter it, and then strike. Sick of my one dumb *** teammate, and his brillinace. Sick of hearing him talk about my mental game, and getting upset ruins my game. No, my games get ruined, then I get upset. How can anyone speak on my mental game when they have no idea what I'm thinking? When I'm up there and set to throw it, I'm not mad, I'm not thinking of the last shot, I'm not thinking of my max score if I strike out. All I'm thinking about it my basics, steps, swing, sights, release. As upset as I get after a frame, or game, when the ball is in my hand I am calm, when I leave the 3,6,10, then chop out the 3, that's when I get mad. I am supposed to be doing this for fun, so now that I bowl "the right way" now it's not fun. 120's, 130's, yeah that's fun.

[RoccoRock]

I apologize if I made it sound like I'm being critical of people who give me advice. It's more that I'm mad at myself, and I have obvious issues following the given advice. I thank everyone who has tried to help, and I have heard you and understand. At the same time, it's pretty obvious I'm an idiot, and I can never do what is best for me. I agree, I should stick with one thing. I understand I'm not going to be good at it right away, and it takes time. I also feel I should be closer to "getting it" by now. I also know it did not take me nearly this long to get my game decent with two fingers. This summer I bowled at least 100 games, and countless hours of practice three finger. Last summer, my project was two handed. With way less games, and waaaay less practice time, I bowled a perfect game two handed. Yes, it was a little lucky, but so were thise big games I had this summer three fingered. I would like to stick to one thing, and if given the choice, I would choose to be a strict two handed. It is my intent to get my Fire Road drilled for two handing, and bring nothing but balls for two handing Thursday. My biggest problem now is taking that ball to my driller, and asking him to set it up for two handing. I'm going to have a hard time facing him, and telling him I am tucking my tail between my legs, and going back to two handed, but at this point I believe it to be in my best interest to do so. After almost getting kicked out of my league, almost getting into a fist fight with a teammate, and cutting my thumb on my left, non bowling hand so bad I almost needed stiches, I need a change. I need to have fun again. Two handing is more fun for me, even if it's not scoring great It's fun loading up on the backswing, doing my little hop, and uncoiling a rocket down lane. I have to stop caring if people don't like it, or that doesn't look smooth. I hope I can stick with it this time.

[billf]

If you're still struggling that bad and not having fun, then it's time to go back to two handing. Fun is the most important part, not what others think.

[RoccoRock]

It was looking grim tonight. I was doing as bad (maybe worse) than last week. I say maybe worse cause the first game I couldn't throw a strike, then the second game I couldn't make a spare. Third game started bad as well, until I found what I was looking for. I backed my fingers out a little, so I was using my semi fingertip grips properly, I slowed down, and focused on the correct spot. I ran five in a row, and all sweet shots, off my hand perfect, right where I aimed it, and hit like a truck. Drilled the pocket next two frames as well, but left the 10 pin. Unfortunately I misses both spares, so now I need to work on my spare ball. That was the end of my nigbt. I hate that, just when I get rolling, nights over. I may take the week off, and not bowl again until next Thursday. My legs are tired, I bowled a 3 hour practice this week without keeping score. Also did a lot of jogging this week, about 6 miles a day. I figure if I'm gonna two hand, I need to get back in shape. Even though I had another terrible series, I didn't get mad, I didnt get into a fight with my teammate, and didn't get told I am close to getting tossed out of the league. Why? Cause I had fun. Also cause I feel like with a little time and practice I will get back on track. I don't feel defeate, and hopeless, and don't feel like changing styles. The good thing is we started using this years average, and my average is way lower than it should be. So when I do get back in track, I'll have a nice handicap.

[RoccoRock]

The title of this thread says it all. Last nights post I said my legs were a little sore, and I was tired. Today, my legs are so shot, I can't even go for a light jog. Tuesday after my long practice, I had some neck pain. Today, my back is a little bit, and I mean little, teeny tiny bit, sore. It's not bad really, the worry is that it's going to get worse. I'm not getting younger, so now I'm worried. So one hand no thumb hurts my wrist. Two hand bothers my legs, and back, and neck. And one hand, thumb in makes me miserable. Maybe it's time to get out the golf clubs.

[J Anderson]

The title of this thread says it all. Last nights post I said my legs were a little sore, and I was tired. Today, my legs are so shot, I can't even go for a light jog. Tuesday after my long practice, I had some neck pain. Today, my back is a little bit, and I mean little, teeny tiny bit, sore. It's not bad really, the worry is that it's going to get worse. I'm not getting younger, so now I'm worried. So one hand no thumb hurts my wrist. Two hand bothers my legs, and back, and neck. And one hand, thumb in makes me miserable. Maybe it's time to get out the golf clubs.

Just have an attitude like my late teammate Otto. He used to say that he enjoyed golfing more than other golfers because he got to hit the ball more often.

[edpup316]

Maybe it's time to get out the golf clubs.

Hey! Thats what i did!! Was avg about 205ish for about 3 years and try as I might i couldnt break that consistent 210-215 range. So i quit for 2 and a half years and picked up golf. I played and i played and i played and then i finally shot my first sub 80(a 78) and BAM i hit a wall so i drifted back over to bowling and know after 2 years of being back into it im avg 224. It was nice getting away from bowling and going to a sport that IMHO has way more decision making to be made as each shot is different and the athletic move to be made is much mroe complicated. Makes bowling seem a little easier.

[RoccoRock]

So I went for a nice practice today. I went through all 3 of my deliveries to pick out flaws, and work on making them smoother, and eliminating the little aches and pains from the two hand, and palm deliveies. The more I worked, the more I practiced, the clearer it became. I was on the right track this summer with a transition to a "traditional" game. I side tracked myself a few times, and got really frustrtated, but if I want to keep bowling, my body would sure like it I stop two handing, palming the ball. Even after deciding that, I was still having issues with control, and consistant rotation, and axis with my thumb in. So I broke that delivery down even more. I was just not very smooth. Mostly because I was using too much muscle on my downswing, and my push off, and slide were not good. So I worked on making my footwork smoother, and a better slide, giving me a more solid base, and really letting gravity do the work with the ball. I can't say what the scores were, cause I didn't have the scoreboard on cause I wasn't going for scrores. I was looking for feel. After I smothed out my herky jerky delivery, and let my delivery flow better, I definatly had a good feel. My league only uses our book average for the first two weeks, then you use your current average. So now I don't have to worry that I'm bowling with an average 10-15 pins higher than I can average now. I hope that by the end of the season I can get my average back to where it was next year, at the very least. Now I can relax, and just work on getting better.

[billf]

With the 'new' delivery your average will drop but not for long. The hard part is leaving behind something you know works NOW. Keep being meticulous and analytical. Those traits will definitely tip the scales in your favor.

[RoccoRock]

So, I've been quiet for a few weeks, just trying to work on my game without outside influence. I haven't spoken to my pro shop guy in weeks either, trying to learn my lessons by myself. My last post, I had said I was going one handed, full time. Predictibly, that didn't happen. The next day, I had an incident. My thumb stuck in a ball so bad, it nearly went in the next lane. Not only did I stop posting my issues here, I nearly quit bowling all together. Instead, I did my usual 180, and went back to two handed. The good news, I commited to it, full time, and did not bowl one handed at all for three weeks. The bad news, the results were no better. I did some practice this week , including throwing an old ball in a makeshift lane in my warehouse, wearing sneakers. The results were interesting. Two handed, my delivery looked very very close to Belmo (minus the slide) and was very accurate. I put a line of tape on the floor, and put a bucket about 20 feet away from the "foul line" The bucket isn't much bigger than the ball. I went through three buckets, cause I kept breaking them from hitting them dead center. I was excited, and I felt like last night was going to be my breakout night. Not so much. Once I had my bowling shoes on, everything I worked on went away. I could not get a good slide, I kept slipping, even though I had on the sliding soles that are supposed to slide the least. I tried to go to my sneakers, but I felt odd doing that at an actual bowling alley. I got a little more comfortable during league warmups, but I was still sucking. So I caught a break, the other team didn't show up, and we had a teamate running late. So I had a half hour to play with. So I got a lane, and I messed around one hand. I figured if I was going to suck, at least I would look better one handing :D I was using a Virtual Gravity Nano, and no matter what I did, I had no hook. The good thing is it made spares easier. I made almost all my spares in that practice. I eventualy moved way way outside, and did manage to find the pocket a little bit. I decided to go with one hand. If I can make spares, I have a chance. I have a 167 average, so I didn't have to do much to keep it up. 190, 183, 141. I got tired last game. I had a tough week of workouts, bowling, and my job, so I ran out of juice. Best part, even when I struggled, I didn't get frustrated, cause I knew I was making th spare, and I was still in the game. I was super smooth too, which makes me happy. I have to stick with one hand, I just have to. Next time out, I am going to try my ball with a Sarge Easter grip. My buddy has a ball with convetional drilling, and I was able to hook that more than my fingertip ball. I figure I may be able to hook the Sagre Easter ball more too. I want to get my game sraight by Thanksgiving. The day before my house has a tourny that I've wanted to enter for 3 years, but haven't had the game to do it.

[billf]

Good luck and good to see you posting again.

[RoccoRock]

So I went back to two handed again... ...just kidding. Aside from one major mental brain cramp, I haven't bowled two handed in a while. I am one handed from here on in. I'm finding my groove now. I am able to adjust, try new things one handed. My hook is back, and I can still throw it straight for spares. Still not totaly there, but close enough to be very very happy. I have learned so much from the people on this board, and when I actualy started listening, it made my game so much better. i hope to get some video soon, so everyone can see the difference between the old style and the new. So, about that brain cramp. I was practicing with a few friends. Across the alley, one of the best bowlers on Long Island was practicing. He was bowlng 2 handed. Never saw him do that before. So, I threw 2 games 2 handed. They were my best 2 games of the night. What I ignored (as usual) even though they scored better, it wasn't by much. So last week, I decided to do a Thanksgiving eve touney. 4 games, drop the lowest game. So I figured I had a game to play with, I'll bowl the first game two handed. If it works, I could drop a 240, and with my handicap that would be in the 300's. Well it didn't work. I couldn't get the ball to the right of the head pin. I just could not get my mechanics right. I changed balls, and boom, struck out the 9th and 10th for a 167. Worst thing that happened to me because it made me want to keep doing it. First 2 frames of game 2, washouts, and opens. So I raised the white flag, decided to go back to what I have been doing the most, and really the best, over the last 2 months. One hand, nice and smooth. Finished game 2 strong, for a 193. Second game, I was dropping bombs. I knew I was really on when I made the 4-7-10 split. 2 nice strings of strikes, for a monster (with my low average) 256. With handicap, that was a 313. Third game wasn't pretty. 7-10 split second frame, then 2 more opens on makeable spares, 176. With my handicap, I shot a 796 series. Good enough for 7th place, and to get some cash back. The thing that sucks, There was a stepladder finals for $500, top 5 made it. I missed by 7 pins. That's one of those makeable spares. If I make the 2-8, or the 3-6-9-10, I was in. I probably could have used a pearl, or polished ball for that 4th game, and saved my bacon. Right now, I just don't have that ball in the bag, and I can't afford one. Had fun, looking foward to more tourneys, and I hope I can dominate in my league from here on out. I went to the tourney to learn, and experiance the tourney, and I learned. I learned that there is no need for me to bowl two handed. I have two balls drilled for two handing only. I need to either convert them for one handing, or donate them. One of them is the Fire Road I won here, and it had maybe 8 games on it.

[75lockwood]

Rocco, i beg you please break up the blocks of text! your hurting my eyes!


So I went back to two handed again... ...just kidding. Aside from one major mental brain cramp, I haven't bowled two handed in a while. I am one handed from here on in. I'm finding my groove now. I am able to adjust, try new things one handed. My hook is back, and I can still throw it straight for spares. Still not totaly there, but close enough to be very very happy. I have learned so much from the people on this board, and when I actualy started listening, it made my game so much better. i hope to get some video soon, so everyone can see the difference between the old style and the new.


So, about that brain cramp. I was practicing with a few friends. Across the alley, one of the best bowlers on Long Island was practicing. He was bowlng 2 handed. Never saw him do that before. So, I threw 2 games 2 handed. They were my best 2 games of the night. What I ignored (as usual) even though they scored better, it wasn't by much.

So last week, I decided to do a Thanksgiving eve touney. 4 games, drop the lowest game. So I figured I had a game to play with, I'll bowl the first game two handed. If it works, I could drop a 240, and with my handicap that would be in the 300's. Well it didn't work. I couldn't get the ball to the right of the head pin. I just could not get my mechanics right. I changed balls, and boom, struck out the 9th and 10th for a 167.

Worst thing that happened to me because it made me want to keep doing it. First 2 frames of game 2, washouts, and opens. So I raised the white flag, decided to go back to what I have been doing the most, and really the best, over the last 2 months. One hand, nice and smooth. Finished game 2 strong, for a 193. Second game, I was dropping bombs. I knew I was really on when I made the 4-7-10 split. 2 nice strings of strikes, for a monster (with my low average) 256. With handicap, that was a 313.

Third game wasn't pretty. 7-10 split second frame, then 2 more opens on makeable spares, 176. With my handicap, I shot a 796 series. Good enough for 7th place, and to get some cash back. The thing that sucks, There was a stepladder finals for $500, top 5 made it. I missed by 7 pins. That's one of those makeable spares. If I make the 2-8, or the 3-6-9-10, I was in. I probably could have used a pearl, or polished ball for that 4th game, and saved my bacon.

Right now, I just don't have that ball in the bag, and I can't afford one. Had fun, looking foward to more tourneys, and I hope I can dominate in my league from here on out. I went to the tourney to learn, and experience the tourney, and I learned. I learned that there is no need for me to bowl two handed. I have two balls drilled for two handing only. I need to either convert them for one handing, or donate them. One of them is the Fire Road I won here, and it had maybe 8 games on it.

Great job at the tournament, just think what could have been if you hadn't bowled that first game two handed....

anyway, you had fun and that's what counts, don't sweat the makeable spares, while makeable they still take a great shot and should never be the focus of your game.

regarding the two hand balls, talk to your pro shop people around the ally, you should be able to get some money out of the balls being that new.

[scottymoney]

Good job! I think you should definitely stick to one handed and never look back. Never throw 2 handed again no matter how much you may struggle with one handed at times, you need to dedicate yourself to one style and stick with it. You will have such a hard time working out the kinks if you never dedicate to one style. Go get your other 2 balls redrilled for one handed and that will give you more options for arsenal and maybe keep you from going back to 2 handed.

[RoccoRock]

Rocco, i beg you please break up the blocks of text! your hurting my eyes!



Great job at the tournament, just think what could have been if you hadn't bowled that first game two handed....

anyway, you had fun and that's what counts, don't sweat the makeable spares, while makeable they still take a great shot and should never be the focus of your game.

regarding the two hand balls, talk to your pro shop people around the ally, you should be able to get some money out of the balls being that new.

I said that to the guys I was bowling with. What if I didn't waste that first game messing around. The good thing about wasting that game is it showed me what I already knew, but from time to time forget. There is no need for me to bowl 2 handed. I can do the same things with one hand, despite the lower rev rate and speed.

The day before the tourney, I got in my own head. I thought, if I had one series to bowl, for a million bucks, and I needed a 600, how would I do it. To this day, in league play, I have not had a 600 series one handed using my thumb. What I should have remembered is how may 600 series I have two handed. That would be one, and it was a 601, where the last game was a 247. The rest of my 600's came one hand no thumb, and I don't throw that way at all anymore.

Despite not having a 600 one hand thumb in, I feel I'm as good now as I ever was. Actually, I feel like I'm better now than ever. The 600's will come, and I would be willing to bet the 700's are coming too. If you count the last 3 games of the tourney, I bowled a 600. 2 weeks ago I bowled a 596. It was the end of a string of 8 straight weeks that I bowled a higher series than the week before. I know I'm getting better, but it was strange to see my game get better every single week. You have to figure at some point you would take a step back, and I finally did last time out.

We will see how things go tomorrow night, I have high hopes. I know why I struggled last league night, and what I need to do to fix it. I really need to figure out why my games go down at the end of the night. I am not tired, so i can't blame that. I think I made decent adjustments to lane conditions, but I could be wrong. I don't think i should have to go from a Virtual Gravity Nano in game one, to a Fire Road in game 3. I don't think the lanes are breaking down that fast. Maybe I'm wrong.

[75lockwood]

I said that to the guys I was bowling with. What if I didn't waste that first game messing around. The good thing about wasting that game is it showed me what I already knew, but from time to time forget. There is no need for me to bowl 2 handed. I can do the same things with one hand, despite the lower rev rate and speed.

The day before the tourney, I got in my own head. I thought, if I had one series to bowl, for a million bucks, and I needed a 600, how would I do it. To this day, in league play, I have not had a 600 series one handed using my thumb. What I should have remembered is how may 600 series I have two handed. That would be one, and it was a 601, where the last game was a 247. The rest of my 600's came one hand no thumb, and I don't throw that way at all anymore.

Despite not having a 600 one hand thumb in, I feel I'm as good now as I ever was. Actually, I feel like I'm better now than ever. The 600's will come, and I would be willing to bet the 700's are coming too. If you count the last 3 games of the tourney, I bowled a 600. 2 weeks ago I bowled a 596. It was the end of a string of 8 straight weeks that I bowled a higher series than the week before. I know I'm getting better, but it was strange to see my game get better every single week. You have to figure at some point you would take a step back, and I finally did last time out.

We will see how things go tomorrow night, I have high hopes. I know why I struggled last league night, and what I need to do to fix it. I really need to figure out why my games go down at the end of the night. I am not tired, so i can't blame that. I think I made decent adjustments to lane conditions, but I could be wrong. I don't think i should have to go from a Virtual Gravity Nano in game one, to a Fire Road in game 3. I don't think the lanes are breaking down that fast. Maybe I'm wrong.


how many people are bowling on the lanes?

are they wooden lanes?

do you by chance know the oil pattern?

anyway, your doing great, how was league?

[RoccoRock]

how many people are bowling on the lanes?

are they wooden lanes?

do you by chance know the oil pattern?

anyway, your doing great, how was league?

It happens everywhere I go. One house is wood, one is synthetic. Sometimes it's just 2 guys, sometimes 4. It's all THS, don't know the specifics. Bowled like total garbage last night, 130 183 180. Had trouble striking, and missed easy single pins spares. Worst part, I did it in front of a friend who I have known for a long time, who i knew was a good bowler, but found out last night was a great bowler (he was taught by Parker Bohn III). I was outscored by all of my friends (he is friends with them as well) and just embarresed myself in front of my friend. The good things were I never bragged to him that I was all that good, and I didn't act like an ***. I was in good spirits. It was strange, I felt like I was throwing the ball well, and in game two I felt like my mechanics were really good. However, the results were terrible. The one thing I took from last night was I tried an old ball, that I liked. I didn't like the movment, or reaction of the ball, so I didn't use it in my game, juts practice. I liked the feel of it. The difference, it is drilled with a Sarge Easter grip. I am thinking of doing the same thing with my Outlaw or my 607A. I like the way it felt on the backswing, and I liked the fact there was no pressure on my ring finger. I drilled the ball a year ago, just because I wasn't using the ball, and I wanted to try something new. Now that I learned how to throw a ball, I wanted to try it again. My friend sounds like he is interested in coming down every now and then and bowling with us, and giving us all tips.

[AZBowla]

Some times the bowling gods are kind and sometimes they aren't. I've thrown my share of crap games where no matter how many times I hit the pocket I didn't strike. Or I'll have games where I throw Brooklyn and get a strike, only to crush the pocket with the next shot and leave a 7 pin or worse, a split. Sometimes it all comes together and I throw a monster game, other times I struggle just to break 150 and I don't feel like I'm throwing the ball any differently (though obviously I must be). So sometimes it's just dumb luck that makes the difference.

[RoccoRock]

Another league night down, another week without a 600. I had a built in excuse this week. I could barley walk, my knee was hurting so bad. I bowled around 20 games Wed, and most of them without my thumb. Just playing around, finding out what I do better with my thumb and what I do better without. Plus, I wanted to use my 607A, and it doesn't have a real thumb hole.

Yesterday morning at work, my knee acted up, and had trouble getting work done. Felt better as the day went on. Even though I've been doing it for months now, using my thumb is still a project. I still have so many x factors in that delivery. I always find myself "trying" something with it. I have a lot going on in my life right now, and I just wanted one night were I don't have to "try" anything. I just wanted to show up and bowl, and if I don't use my thumb my mechanics are so much easier for me to repeat. So I bowled without my thumb in warmups.

By the time warmups were over, I felt like I needed to go to the hospital. My back hurts as well. Even though the mechanics are easier to repeat, they are much tougher on my body. So much torque on my knee (plus I've put on a few pounds so that doesn't help) and also strain on my back from leaning down more. I tried to gut it out, and stick with the plan, but I just couldn't do it. I can't remember what frame it was, but it was middle of game one, I put my thumb back in. My only goal was to finish the night, didn't care about the score. Started feeling better, and bowling better. Didn't exactly set the world on fire, but a solid 182, 189, 201.

So the next step is plugging, and redrilling my 607A so I can use my thumb. I have to remember why I started using my thumb. It wasn't to score better, it wasn't because I was ashamed of being a no thumb, or two hander, it was because I was afraid of exactly what happened this week. Is it worth averaging 10 pins higher in a recreational, house pattern league if you can't walk after? I still don't know if I will ever really get to where I want to be using my thumb, I can't make a spare on the right side of the lane to save my life, but at least I won't have to stop at the hospital on the way home from league night.

[AZBowla]

Oh man, that sucks, sorry to hear that you're having all these knee and back problems! My GF has issues too when bowling which really sucks because she loves to bowl but can't usually do it for more than a couple of games without her back giving her the white flag treatment.

Sounds like you have your answer, you need to use your thumb to be able to bowl without pain. I would also recommend talking to your doctor about the knee and back problems you've been having. It could be the beginning of something that if left untreated could end your bowling days so I'd definitely have it checked out.

[GeoLes]

I remind my wife from time to time when she does not see progress that changes take time. You will performance wain before it improves, but when it improves, it is better than before.

[MICHAEL]

It’s called the STORM, before the Calm! Things many times get worse, before they get better when making changes, or working on a sports related correction. Golf, bowling, baseball,,, tiddlywinks you name it! You are a work in progress, as many of us are, or should be! Lol….

[Chuck44]

Like GeorgiaStroker said, your looking pretty good, but I just don't know what it could be. Maybe it is that you're not cleaning your ball in between.

----------------

http://www.squidoo.com/mens-bowling-balls

[RoccoRock]

Knee feels good, back feels good, ready to go tomorrow night. The 607A is at my driller now, picking it up tomorrow. The Fire Road is also there, and will be sold when he plugs it, and puts it on the used shelf. No more fruity smelling balls for me. The driller looked at me and says "why do you want to sell it, it's one of the most polpular sellers I have." I said "good, then you won't have a problem selling it for me." I told him I don't know why, I'm sure it's a great ball, but I couldn't stand it. It had the most inconsistant reactions I've even seen. Everyone talk about how consistant Storm balls are, and Track balls aren't as consistant. I can't explain it, but it's the exact opposite for me. My Storm stuff just seems to come and go. My Track stuff, just seems to work a little better overall.

[billf]

Congrats on getting rid of the air freshener and getting a bowling ball

[RoccoRock]

My bag still smells like fruit from that stupid ball, and it hasn't been in there for weeks. I had it in my bedroom for a while and my wife though I bought a new air freshner for the room. The only reason I hesitated to get rid of it is because my friend thought it would work really well in my league with the way they oil the lanes. I thought about it, but I did use it in my league, when I was bowling thumbless, and I hated the ball. Worst over/under reaction I've ever seen or heard about from a ball.

[RoccoRock]

So the struggles continue. I've had good games here or there, good nights even, but with my thumb in it just seems like something is missing. I bowled a few weeks ago my old way, without my thumb. The next night, I almost couldn't bowl my league my knee hurt so bad (doesn't help that I've gained 30 pounds.) So I went back, put my thumb in for the next few league nights, and practices, with horrifying results. Two weeks ago I bowled the worst game of my life. 106, and I felt like I was throwing the ball well, and my mechanics were very good.

I started thinking, my average without my thumb is 10-20 pins higher without my thumb, so what is the difference. It's simple, I throw more strikes without my thumb. I can string them better, I can read the lanes better cause I can throw the ball the same way, on the same line every time without my thumb. I make the same amount of spares either way, the difference is the degree of difficulty in the spares. I leave more splits without my thumb, but make the easier spares pretty well. With my thumb, I leave more easy spares, but miss more single pins spares, and chop more spares. The 2-8 is a friggin nightmare with my thumb in, I think I've made it 1 out of 15 times. I've never had a 600 series with my thumb in. Last 10 weeks of last season I had 4 600 series without my thumb.

So the new project, how can I throw thumbless, without hurting my knee or wrist. I think I figured it out. I studied Tom Daughrety's delivery, and I saw how smooth he was. I worked on extending the ball more, and using gravity, and momentum to keep the ball in my hand. After game one, I figured it out a little, and I was happy with my results. No wrist pain at all, and no knee pain at all. In fact, I have less knee pain then when I was using my thumb. There are 2 other things I want to try, but one isn't realistic right now. I want to use semi fingertip grips, and start using 14# balls. I just can't afford to buy new balls right now, I can't even afford to buy one new ball. As of now, I think I'm ok with 15, but when I am looking for a dry lane ball (soon) I will probably buy 14.

So, for now, I am going back to thumbless. I am willing to bet within 3 weeks I bowl at least one 600 series. My league is two 16 weeks season, and my goal is to dominate the second half, which starts in 3 weeks.

[RoccoRock]

So I managed to squeeze out the money to buy a ball. I have a Rising Star on the way. It is 14#s, and even though it's a used ball, bought off of ebay, it should serve it's purpose until I can buy a new ball. Last week I bowled a tournament Tuesday, and did well. For the first time since July (the last time I bowled 2 fingers) I strung together 3 consecutive 200+ games. My spare shooting was very good, only missing splits, even making one or two. My league Thursday was a similar story, except I couldn't throw strikes. The numbers were unimpressive, but again I was very good shooting spares. I love the feeling of that 14# spare ball, the backswing, the release, the ability to throw it anywhere, any speed, and even able to adjust the amount of side roll. I struggled with the feel of my 15# strike ball. I bowled back to back 171's. My team got buried, with only 1 week left until the season ends. So the last game, I just threw my spare ball the whole time. Even though I knew it wasn't going to hook much, and I would have to fire straight down the 10, I used it as an experiment. I put it in the pocket almost every time, but go NO carry, as I expected. Only threw 2 strikes. That's when I knew I had to buy a 14# strike ball and find out.

My dilemma is that the ball will most likely not be here until Saturday. I am practicing with friends Tuesday, then league Thursday, and I don't know what to do. I though about bowling with my thumb in for strikes, and shooting spares without my thumb. I thought about bowling my strikes two handed, spares one hand no thumb. I also thought just putting my thumb in for these two nights, and seeing if I can translate a thing or two I've been doing thumbless. Of course, the option I will probably go with is throwing thumbless with my 15's for one more week. I'll decide later this week. The good thing is I can't "ruin" my game by going back and forth between deliveries anymore. I have enough of a base to be able to go back to whatever I want at any time.

[MisterSinister]

Hey Rock, my buddy has like 20 balls, I will ask if he has any 14. He likes to experament, som I would bet he has one or two you could borrow. I'll call you if he does, and maybe I'll bowl with you Tuesday brother. If he doesn't, just use your thumb for a few days.

[RoccoRock]

The shame of it all is this, my delivery with my thumb in looks great. It is smooth, I've worked out most of the kinks, and feels solid. I used to bend my arm at the elbow, got rid of that. I used to tilt my head sideways, got rid of that. I used to get the ball behind my back, not my head, on my backswing, got rid of that. I used to have an unintentional loft, got rid of that. Visually, I love my delivery with my thumb in, I just can't score as high as without my thumb in. In the league I'm in, if you lined up all the bowlers and asked the question "who had the best form" I would be at the very top of that list. I'm so tired of losing to guys who look like goons throwing the ball. I'm tired of seeing guys I KNOW I am better than all over the leader boards, and I'm not on a single one.

I fight myself every day, I don't really want to go back to thumbless. It's almost like if I go back to thumbless, I've waste the last 6 months, and hundreds of dollars. At the same time, I know I am better without my thumb. I think the game plan from now on is my Tuesday practices I will use my thumb. Work on spares, accuracy, and a consistently throw the ball the same way, with the same revs and axis. League nights, I will bowl thumbless, unless I get reallt good with my thumb. Maybe when I bowl back to back 200 games with my thumb in (which I don't think I ever have) I'll try it in the league again.

[billf]

I think the game plan from now on is my Tuesday practices I will use my thumb. Work on spares, accuracy, and a consistently throw the ball the same way, with the same revs and axis. League nights, I will bowl thumbless.

Now that's a good plan. I still think part of your problem was/is you know what you can do thumbless, enjoy thumbless more (at this point) and liked being different. You have a rare talent. Embrace it and use it to your advantage.

[RoccoRock]

Now that's a good plan. I still think part of your problem was/is you know what you can do thumbless, enjoy thumbless more (at this point) and liked being different. You have a rare talent. Embrace it and use it to your advantage.

I wouldn't say I like being different. In fact, that's one of the reasons I wanted to use a traditional three finger delivery. I didn't want to be looked at like a freak, or a hack. I love bowling, more than anything other than my family. I love watching great bowlers. I love the form or Pete Weber, Mike Fagan, Chris Barnes, anyone will great style. That even extends to local bowlers. I always loved the locals who had great form. Smooth delivery, loose arm swing, great follow through. The more my love for the sports grows, the more I look at the way I chucked the ball without my thumb in and wanted to throw up. Now I have gotten smoother without my thumb, but still I just think I look like some teenager who grabs a house ball, takes his thumb out, and turns to his pimple face girlfriend and says "look how much I can spin it." It's part of the torture that is being me. The other parts are true, I know what I can do without my thumb. In fact, I think I can still get even better without my thumb than I am now. I enjoy it more only because I know I can score better with it. Still, even though I know I'm not as good, I watch video of me bowling with my thumb in the ball, and just love the look. I have developed a style. I have crafted my style, from a clumsy, herky jerky, terrible delivery with a clunking loft, to a smooth, loose free delivery where the ball glides onto the lanes. I saw all the people looking at me at the tournament on New Years day. I saw the looks of the guys I shared the lanes with. I didn't like it. If I was using my thumb, I wouldn't have gotten those looks. I have friend who bowled under Parker Bohn, and I feel ashamed talking bowling with him because I don't use my thumb. My wife's cousin is good friends PBA title winner Brian Ziesig. He was at the same party as my wife and myself not long ago, and I couldn't go up to him and tell him I was a bowler. Again, it's just tough being me sometimes.

Even though I said I will bowl leagues without my thumb, as of now it does not look like it will have my 14# Rising Star in time for tomorrow nights league, so I will be using my thumb. Watch, I'll bowl a 675 series tomorrow night.

[billf]

You know what they say, "if you think you can or can't, you're correct". You know how good you are thumbless. You have nothing but doubt about your ability with your thumb. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Send me a vid with thum and see if I can find a flaw causing an issue bowlerz_score@yahoo.com

[RoccoRock]

Thanks Bill, next time I bowl I will try to remember my camera. I will also take some video without my thumb, just to see what you think of that delivery, and the biggest differences between the two, other than rev rate. I'm going to work really hard on my spare ball with my thumb in. If I can get that working, I'll be pretty close to even with both styles.

[RoccoRock]

So, for now, I am going back to thumbless. I am willing to bet within 3 weeks I bowl at least one 600 series.

Hey look at that, I'm Nostra frekin damus. 633 tonight. First 600 of the season. To be fair, I bowled the first game with my thumb in, and actually felt good about it for a while. Here's what happened.

Bowled 3 practice games before league. Thumb in first game, drilled the pocket over and over, kept leaving 10 pins. Struggled with easy spares again, but started making a 10 pin here or there. Second game, bowled the first 4 frames no thumb, didn't feel like doing it any longer went back to using thumb, same results as game one. Third game went to the Nano, and moved right 2 boards. Money. 242. So I took that to the league.

Warmups went well. Started out the game well, double to start the game. Then, gutterball. I was baffled. I did make the spare though. Another strike, then I left the 4 pin. Hit my leg, missed. Strike, 4 pin, whiffed it. 9th frame left the 10 pin, did not think I had a shot at it with my thumb so I went no thumb, made it. Put my thumb back in, 3 ugly strikes in the 10th, 195. Second game, spare, strike, gutterball again. This time pulled out the 607A, no thumb, made the spare again. No thumb next ball, split. Back to thumb, and damn near threw another gutterball. That was the end of that. Used no thumb rest of the night, after finding the line I ran 4 in a row, made spares, 208. Third game spare, open (1-2-8) 6 pack, shaker 10 (missed cause I was laughing too hard.) Another double, 230.

I feel friggin great. I'm excited for the rest of this season. The other team has a thumbless bowler as well, who I know very well. I never noticed until tonight, he uses a pinkie hole. I've been thinking about trying that for a while now. I threw his ball in warmups, and I loved it. I'm gonna have a pinkie hole put in my 607A, and the Rising Star when it comes. I would suggest thumbless bowlers give it a try. It will help keep the ball stable.

[RoccoRock]

I can't help but laugh when I read the first post of this thread. I was all set to go back to this style months ago, but one night of wrist soreness derailed me. I even mentioned dropping to 14. So here we are, 5 months later, and after all the switching back and forth between 3 styles, I am right back where I started. The funny thing, I have absolutely no wrist pain at all. I've been doing this again for three weeks, and not a hint of wrist issues. As I think back, I think I know what happened back then. It was the drills I was doing at the time during the day. That;s what made my wrist sore, not bowling. I wish I would have stuck with it, but at the same time I'm glad I tried something different. If I'm ever in a situation where I can no longer bowl thumbless, I have a reference point now. I'll still practice from time to time with my thumb, but when it counts, the glove goes on and the thumb comes out.

[billf]

It hasn't been a waste of time though as now you have a very unique ability....to shoot a 200 game with either style. That's not something most bowlers can do.
Now when you hit a tournament you can choose your style based off how you feel and the lane conditions. The only thing stopping you is, well, you. (a problem we all have at times)

[RoccoRock]

Rising Star came the other day, tried it out last night. The good, a 14lb ball seems to be the way to go. It hit as hard as any 15 I've ever thrown. Didn't leave pins when I hit the pocket. The bad, the ball is in rough shape, but nothing a deep cleaning and resurfacing can't solve. The undecided, I drilled the pinkie hole. I'm not sure, and I'll try it again, but I don't think I liked it. It didn't give me the control I was looking for.

As usual, my spare ball was money. I was throwing it so well, I started messing around trying to throw a straight end over end shot. I haven't tried it since I went to a 14lb spare ball. I think I have it down pretty good. If I didn't have the glove, and throwing a 14 I don't think I could do it. I'm only planning on using the end over end shot for 10 pin, and maybe 6 pins.

As far as the scores, not great. I was trying things for the first time, like the straight shot and the pinkie hole. That's not the time to bowl on a sport pattern for the first time. It was a good learning experience, and even though I don't remember the scores I know I beat my friends every single game.

[RoccoRock]

Did not do all that well in my league Thursday night. I left the 10 pin 7 times, the 7 pin once, and a solid 9 pin. I started thinking maybe the 14 just won't carry the same way. However, I thought about my practice game, before the league started. I strung 5 in a row, and 3 in a row in that game. The difference was the lane conditions. The league was freshly oiled, and the practice lanes were not. The Rising Star worked well on the dryer lanes, but struggled in league conditions, which I would term as Med, maybe a little more to the heavy side. My 607A was always great in my league, so now I need to find a ball similar the 607A and see how it does.

[RoccoRock]

Maybe I should start a new thread, call it "I can win, if I stick with what I know I am good at." Picked up a new ball today, I went with a Frantic. I wanted something stronger than the Rising Star. I also wanted to try no grip, fingertips into bare ball. First impressions, very nice. I am happy I went and bought a new ball, and I love the feel without the grips. In my 3rd game, I went into the pro shop to see if my driller can come out and watch a few frames. This is my usual guy, so he knows my whole story. He is the one I did the hour lesson with when I was trying to use my thumb. I've also show him video of when I was bowling well with my thumb. This is the first time he has seen me throw thumbless in a year. He told me the way I am throwing the ball right now is the best he has ever seen me throw, and by far. He liked how hard I was throwing it, but without trying to overpower the ball. He liked my consistency, and the way I was throwing my 10 pins, straight end over end. So I am happy, and I am only going to bring my thumbless balls to the lanes for a while. None of them, aside from the spare ball, even have a usable thumb hole.

[aussiedave]

I'm thinking of giving in, and getting a wrist positioning device. It couldn't hurt right now. They just look sooooo goofy, then again so does bowling with two hands lol.
I think two handed looks good if you can do it well, and Jason Bellmonte wouldn't give two hoots what you thought of his style!
I know a guy who bowls in the 130's with thumb in ball, but when he bowls two handed, he immediately gets much better scores, yet he also was torn between the two. Like you he has an injury - that prevents him from comfortably bowling two handed. He wants to go that route, but can't.
I am leary of trying two handed - it looks like a very physical way to bowl and I ain't getting any younger!
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