Need hook help :(

[rab91787]

I normally bowl down the right side with a subtle hook into the pocket. I would like to be able to move more left and increase carry, but I can't seem to get the hand motion correct. I am able to get insane revs with my thumb out of the ball, but once my thumb is in I can't duplicate the same action. I can put 600+ revs and adjust the angle on a thumbless grip, but when I consciously try to do the same hand motion with my thumb in my ball, I get the right rotation but with very low revs and the ball ends up skidding. Another weird occurance (which hopefully tips off someone as to what I'm doing wrong) is that my ball speed actually increases from 17 to 19 mph when I try to add revs. I would think that consciously trying to put side spin on a ball as opposed to forward roll would slow down ball speed, not up. I have a good idea of what I need to do, but I must be messing up some critical part. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[billf]

I would bet that your thumb is staying in the ball a split second too long and chances are the release is a tad late.

[Ball99999]

When you bowl thumbless you have to cup your wrist and rest it against the forearm to keep control of it. Do you notice that with the thumb in you don't have that cup anymore?

[AngeloPD]

Im in the same situation, every time i try to increase revs, my ball speed goes up to 18mph with a 14lb ball. I will be getting my 15b HRR tomorrow and hopefully when trying to increase revs my ball speed would be 16mph.

[rab91787]

When you bowl thumbless you have to cup your wrist and rest it against the forearm to keep control of it. Do you notice that with the thumb in you don't have that cup anymore?

Yeah I read on that and thought that may be the problem but also saw read that if you use a wrist support so that your wrist is firm you should still be able to get revs as long as you do the hand motion wrong. Is that correct? I tried it last night and the result was what I originally posted.

As far as the thumb, I don't know how to change that :( Would I just delay the hand rotation even longer? I start my league tonight so I'm going to go with thumbless until I can practice thumb-in again this weekend. I'll try to get some videos so that I can see what I'm doing exactly during release.

[Tampabaybob]

rab,

I'm in agreement with Bill and ball99999. As far as your thumb coming out late, I would say, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. You really have to feel your hand, and particularly your thumb during your downswing. Not the easiest thing to change. If you're getting 600+ revs without your thumb in the ball, I would think that you should be close to 500 revs "WITH" your thumb in the ball. It's just going to take a lot of practice.

My question to you, is, why are you changing? Is it an accuracy thing, consistency, or what ? I bowl on a league with guys of every style and I'm always in awe of the guys with a lot of revs, mainly because of the amount of carry they get. Because I'm a Senior, and have been bowling since God invented balls, I'm a text book stroker but I would love to be able to shoot with more revs. I know there are inherent problems that guys have bowling with no thumb. What are you averaging now ?

Bob

[rab91787]

I haven't bowled consistently for a couple of years. I just started up two weeks ago and alternate between straight down the right side and thumbless. I hate just going straight at the pocket and leaving a lot of 7's and 10's. Thumbless is a lot more of a challenge to me and when I hit my mark I love the carry, but it's much harder to be consistent. If I could somehow be able to achieve a higher rev rate and have the improved accuracy from using thumb then I would definitely average higher. Tonight was my first week of leagues in years and I only averaged in the 170s. I was all over the place. So if I learned how to maintain a cupped wrist with my thumb in the ball and then uncupped it at release my thumb would be out in time to put revs on it? I saw they have new wrist supports that allow you to stay cupped but I don't know if that would help at all.

Thanks!

[billf]

So if I learned how to maintain a cupped wrist with my thumb in the ball and then uncupped it at release my thumb would be out in time to put revs on it? I saw they have new wrist supports that allow you to stay cupped but I don't know if that would help at all.

Thanks!
Yes, stay cupped and as your arm swings down you un-cup at the 5:00 position, taking the thumb out then rotating at the 6:00 position.
Braces help to feel the cup and improve side roll but restrict the un-cup needed for great revs, in my opinion. Also, if you're throwing too fast now, with a brace it will be harder.

[Tampabaybob]

I haven't bowled consistently for a couple of years. I just started up two weeks ago and alternate between straight down the right side and thumbless. I hate just going straight at the pocket and leaving a lot of 7's and 10's. Thumbless is a lot more of a challenge to me and when I hit my mark I love the carry, but it's much harder to be consistent. If I could somehow be able to achieve a higher rev rate and have the improved accuracy from using thumb then I would definitely average higher. Tonight was my first week of leagues in years and I only averaged in the 170s. I was all over the place. So if I learned how to maintain a cupped wrist with my thumb in the ball and then uncupped it at release my thumb would be out in time to put revs on it? I saw they have new wrist supports that allow you to stay cupped but I don't know if that would help at all.

Thanks!

If you can keep your wrist cupped until the last second before your release and if you can rotate your wrist and fingers the same as you do with having no thumb in the ball, you should be able to pull this change off. As Bill mentioned, if your speed is to fast, you will be overpowering the ball and not giving it a chance to go into a roll. What are you using for a ball and what is your speed at when using your thumb?

I would suggest staying at about 16 mph at most until you get the handle on throwing it this way. Also, if you're not using a fairly aggressive ball it'll slide too far if you overpower it.

Bob

[rab91787]

I have a Virtual Gravity for when the lanes are oily and use an old Brunswick Power Groove that I've had forever when they dry up. Thanks for the responses, though. I'll have to practice the wrist cup/un-cup this weekend. With thumb I usually throw around 17.

[RoccoRock]

I can speak on this from personal experience. I bowled thumbless/two handed for 2 years. Any time I tried to put my thum in, I couldn't get revs, the ball went straight, and I sprayed it all over. Over the summer, I put a lot of time amd effort into figuring out why this was the case. Most of it is what everyone is saying, my thumb was coming out late. I had to figure out how to get out quicker, and cleaner. I went to a larger thumb hole, and worked hard on keeping my thumb straight, and getting the ball on my fingers at the bottom of my swing, and off my thumb. I was even doing release drills yesterday for this same thing. Even though I started doing better with getting the thumb out quicker, the last few times out I got lazy, so I had to drill it again. When your sitting around at home, take your ball, and a bunch of pillows, and just try releasing the ball a few times into the pillows. Don't swing it back that far, just concentrate on getting the thumb out quicker. Scince I've been doing that, my rev rate has gone up, I can't match my two handed revs, but I get close enough. I still don't have one hand thumb in quite down yet, and still am not sure that's how I want to bowl, but I have gotten much better at it. In fact my second and third highest games ever were over the summer, in a 4 day span, with my thumb in. For me the larger hole worked well too. When I did the dills yesterday, if I put so much as one peice of tape in, my thumb hung up in the hole. The downside to the big thumb hole is you have to grip the ball hard with your fingers, and you tend to grab with you thumb at the bottom of the swing.

[AngeloPD]

Rocco, you can try adding Rom's Magic carpet tape so that your thumb is snug and you'l get a consistent release everytime.

[rab91787]

I have practiced throwing on to my bed for release practice and can get a lot of revs that way, but once I try that with a full backswing I can't replicate it. I will definitely have to focus on getting my thumb out fast. Do you think the best motion for doing that is going from cupped to uncupped?

[billf]

There is nothing wrong with that speed. In time you will get the release down and the revs will match.

[Tampabaybob]

I have a Virtual Gravity for when the lanes are oily and use an old Brunswick Power Groove that I've had forever when they dry up. Thanks for the responses, though. I'll have to practice the wrist cup/un-cup this weekend. With thumb I usually throw around 17.

Well, with the virtual gravity, that ball should be hooking out of the house. I'm assuming that your 17 MPH is at the cameras down lane, so off your hand you're releasing at about 18.5 to 19 MPH. Thats pretty fast. Depending on the oil pattern, I'm guessing the ball is sliding a bit too long before getting into the hook phase. I know its hard but give it a try to get down a mile or so an slower with emphasis on that quick uncapping release. If you're on a THS shot, (about 40 feet of oil) use the rule of thumb and subtract 31 and play the 9 board on your first ball. You should probably have to drop on the 10 - 12 board, and float the ball out as far as the 7 board to get the ball to roll up into the pocket. If it doesn't come up to the 1 -3 pocket move a board right and vice-versa if it's too much. If its dead on the nose, move 3 left with your feet and two boards left with your target and get more into the oil.

Let us know what's working for you or what didn't happen. This is coaching by osmosis and hard when you can't be right next to the person you're coaching but hey we'll give you as much help as we can.

Bob

[Fatal]

I'm also having troubles with my release. I think it might be that my span is to short as well. I got my ball about 2 years ago and my hand span has changed. I let the ball out way to late. I was at the lanes last night working on my release and i notice when i let the ball go early is creates more revs but it seemed to lack the power i usually have.

[RoccoRock]

Rocco, you can try adding Rom's Magic carpet tape so that your thumb is snug and you'l get a consistent release everytime.

Haven't tried that product, I'll look into it. I've tried Ace Shur Cushin, didn't like it. I'm going to try Vise Hada Patch tomorrow.

[billf]

To be matched at a ball speed of 17mph, I would guess a release at 19-20mph, would require a rev rate of 400-450 rpm. The 600+ you say you are getting at 17mph thumbless is very rev dominate. Obviously with either style, if you're matched instead of rev dominate, you will play a different line but get better carry.

[rab91787]

Wow I just saw an instructional video on youtube describing what to do with your thumb during a good release and he said it should always be pointing toward the gutter. I always tried turning it but that has never worked well. I gave the thumb to the right a try practicing on my bed and it seemed like it helped get my thumb out and allowed my fingers to rotate the ball during the follow through. Does that sound correct? I always tried finishing with my thumb turned inwards but maybe that is incorrect.

[billf]

If your thumb was turned in then you already started the rotation. That's way too late. Thumb should be at around 1:00 or 2:00 position when exiting. 3:00 for those who like to really crank a ball (rough on the wrist).

[Ball99999]

For some reason I can only reply if I hit "go advanced" but anyway,

what you said helps because it gives me a definite time frame of when and when I can't turn with my fingers. After my thumb exits I can just jerk up with my fingers then.

When lofting, do you delay the thumb release?

[rab91787]

Wow that's huge. I bet my turning the thumb from out to in at the end of the release was making it stay in the ball way too long and killing my revs. I have no idea why it has never been clear enough for me to catch that through all of my reading on the subject. I always heard about clock positions and turning the fingers around the clock. Well I figured that included the thumb as well. I'm really pumped to work on cupping/un-cupping and maintaining thumb to the right this weekend! If it works I will be so happy!

[billf]

For some reason I can only reply if I hit "go advanced" but anyway,

what you said helps because it gives me a definite time frame of when and when I can't turn with my fingers. After my thumb exits I can just jerk up with my fingers then.

When lofting, do you delay the thumb release?

To loft properly DO NOT ALTER YOUR RELEASE. Proper lofting is done with the slide leg, specifically the amount of knee bend. Watch the King of Swing, Michael Fagan, probably the premier loft bowler on tour of Mika Kovuniemi. (wow that messed with spell checker lol)
They both alter the amount of bend at the start position which in turn alters it in the finish position. Just another reason to start with a good knee bend. Once' your body is use to the correct amount for a proper release it becomes easier to alter for loft and be able to estimate accurately for the amount of loft.

[Ball99999]

So the knee bend is how high your ball is released then? Makes sense.

[striker12]

yes ball99999 just dont bend your knees soo much that u get too much loft that you end up throwing the ball right on top of the pins lol thst somethings i have already almost done with sut alittle knee bend soo i had to take some of the bend out of my knees

[billf]

Less bend = more loft.
Striker, you're full of ****. There's no way you "almost" lofted a ball on top of the pins. I'm willing to bet you couldn't even loft a 6 lbs ball that far. Plus if you took bend out of the knees then you would loft it more. Not sure how you expect a ball delivered lower to go higher but whatever. I call bull**** on that post!

[striker12]

bill my old style of bowling i had no backswing soo i was different to you guys but it was not really on top of the pins but it was close just abit past half way down the lane with a 15lb ball because i use to mussle the ball and my bowling coach told me i should stand up more because when i got to the foul line i stood up soo it would give me alot of loft soo he had me put less bend in my knees to make me push the ball more outwards know i dont even loft the ball nomore cause i have no need to i just adjust my speed and revs or if i need a later hook i will just get another one of my balls drilled to go farther up the lane.

i will try to get the video of when i lofted the ball on o jsut the 1 frame but at first i need to edit it cause its a 2hr video of me and some buddys bowling

[striker12]

bill here is a video of me throwing a strike with my old style u can hear it smoke the pins and a somewhat video of me lofting the ball it was the first one that i can up to and just took it cause u will see what i mean by when i stood up on the release it dose not go far but i think the ones wher ei loft it hard are farther in the video.

heres my old bowling style throwing my hammer hawg getting a strike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-gx5V3C-X4&feature=plcp

[striker12]

heres with me lofting it as a spare shot jsut see how my body stands up on the release abit.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvR8xOORtGw&feature=plcp


srry for bad video just took them with my ipod from the computer saved me from having to edit the hole 2hr video.

[Tampabaybob]

Striker, I've warned guys that lofted the ball that far out, that if they did it again, I'd show them the door ( when I managed a center). Probably missed a bunch of spares , too, right? LOL

Bob

[The German Shepherd]

I would bet that your thumb is staying in the ball a split second too long and chances are the release is a tad late.

Funny but that was exactly what I was thinking....

Jay

[billf]

Striker, watch your video very closely. You were the same height, if not slightly lower, at release as you were in your starting stance. You didn't stand up until well past the release point. And to be blunt, that was obviously a forced loft with poor form.

[billf]

Funny but that was exactly what I was thinking....

Jay

Great minds think alike? lol

[striker12]

bill watch right before i get to the line my body dips down then back up my bowling coach got me out of it for awhile and it jsut happened again but know i will try to get a video of my new bowling style to show how much of a big different it was in changing.

[striker12]

Striker, I've warned guys that lofted the ball that far out, that if they did it again, I'd show them the door ( when I managed a center). Probably missed a bunch of spares , too, right? LOL

Bob

well bob thing is my bowling allie is a crap hole the lanes are worped and they have not fixed the lanes in over 40years but i bowl ther ejust for the fun of it but trust me that shot is nothing to what most of do there 1 lady there walkes up dose not go down low to let the ball on the lane she like side arms the ball down the lane and it just slams the lane.

but one thing they jsut did at the bowling allie they never fixed the lanes but they go and put 5 pin lanes in witch took them over 4 months to put in and it is only 8 lanes and it should of been done is 2 months thats how worped the lanes where they where braking in half taking up jsut alittle bit.

[Tampabaybob]

Striker, how about posting a video of a few frames of your approach now.......rear view and side view.

Bob

[striker12]

yeah i will do that once i go to the bowling allie cant be today cause i have to go and pay for my jrs today but maby on wed the league there is not that big soo im able to get on some decent oil and not much burnt out.

i guess i did end up going bowling today my brother wanted to go and i end up forgetting my camera and ipod at home i would probly forget my head if it was not attached to me.

[rab91787]

Well I'm about to give up unless anyone has any more ideas for me to try. I practiced all week on mini swings on to my bed and was getting nice revs and rotation with my thumb in the ball. I go today to try and duplicate that with a full swing and I either got revs with straight rotation or rotation with low revs. I tried a bunch of different things to try and get the same feel but just couldn't do it. I tried everything I could think of for two games and since I was making zero prograss I did one practice game without thumb to prepare for leagues on Tuesday. Just one game with my style I bowled a 191 with an open in the 9th. I'm starting to think that I should just put my practice time towards my thumbless style so that I can hopefully get more consistent. I wish I could have found someone to go to get a video of me trying with a normal grip but couldn't get anyone today. :(

[AngeloPD]

Well I'm about to give up unless anyone has any more ideas for me to try. I practiced all week on mini swings on to my bed and was getting nice revs and rotation with my thumb in the ball. I go today to try and duplicate that with a full swing and I either got revs with straight rotation or rotation with low revs. I tried a bunch of different things to try and get the same feel but just couldn't do it. I tried everything I could think of for two games and since I was making zero prograss I did one practice game without thumb to prepare for leagues on Tuesday. Just one game with my style I bowled a 191 with an open in the 9th. I'm starting to think that I should just put my practice time towards my thumbless style so that I can hopefully get more consistent. I wish I could have found someone to go to get a video of me trying with a normal grip but couldn't get anyone today. :(

Im in the same boat aswell. You can use a tripod to mount the camera so you wouldn't need anyone to take a video of you.

[rab91787]

Ya I have a camera that I can do that with but I'd feel awkward video recording my awful shots with a tripod lol.

[AngeloPD]

Ya I have a camera that I can do that with but I'd feel awkward video recording my awful shots with a tripod lol.

Don't be, iv'e done it a couple times before and im pretty sure most of us in here too. People will know you are serious about the sport and your trying to be better at it.

[billf]

I put the camera either on a table or the floor. It's not as obvious, not that I care either way. I've made the biggest strides since I started recording myself. It's amazing the difference between what we think we are doing and what is actually happening.

[Tampabaybob]

I'm with Bill on this. You'll be doing this to improve your game, so do't be shy about setting up a tripod and filming yourself. If you go during a time it's slow, ask for a lane so you can set the tripod up 2 lanes away so you can get a couple or more frames in from the side. That'll really help you and us help you out. You might even attract someone that is a very good bowler or even a coach that'll offer some advice on the spot. If so, roll the camera some more.

One Lady I worked with for over a year went on to break the house record that stood for 18 years. She shot a 786 series. Give us a shot at helping and then go out and practice. Give it some time and you'll get it.

Bob

[Tampabaybob]

rab......what part of the country are you in ???

Bob

[rab91787]

PA. Alright, if I don't average something good like 180+ at leagues Tuesday night then I'll go back to practicing thumb and make sure I get a video. I appreciate the help :)

[rab91787]

WOW I just found a very thorough article on axis rotation that explained the technique completely different than what I was trying.

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_4_point_btm_nov_2006.pdf

So for maximum rotation you start your fingers at 3 and move your thumb from 9 to 12? I never thought of moving my thumb clockwise before. I just tried it a couple of times with mini swings and it looks like it is working! If this is the proper way to do it then that would explain why I would get revs last time I practiced when I would focus on keeping my thumb to the right but I had no backend because I didn't start with it to the left. I always thought you started with thumb to the right and ended with it left and fingers to the right. Which is correct? If this is the proper way then I'm going to have to try it out this weekend.

[billf]

I hope you're left-handed otherwise you will be throwing a backup ball. Right-handers rotate counter-clockwise, lefties clockwise.

[rab91787]

Oh, okay. That's what I thought, but the "focus points" for each release had me confused. Like for the 90-degree it says to finish with your thumb at 12 o'clock. I don't understand how that happens if you want your thumb at 9 at release. I was rotating counter-clockwise in all of my previous attempts but was unsuccessful.

[billf]

Don't confuse thumb exiting the ball with thumb in follow through. The thumb must exit before finger rotation or you will have axis rotation but no revs. There is a huge difference between the ball spinning and generating revs. If you held your hand with thumb at 9, fingers at 3 through the wole swing and release, you would have to axis rotation but very little revs. Starting the release with your thumb at 12 to 3 and rotating the fingers as fast as possible to 3 would generate revs at a 90 degree axis rotation. The better you get at rotating the fingers quickly the more revs you will generate. As the revs increase the amount of needed axis rotation will decrease. The biggest key is learning to let the ball roll of the end of the fingers as the rotation finishes.

[rab91787]

Tonight was awful. I couldn't keep the ball on the right side of the pocket two finger. Had a decent normal release game throwing practically straight (170 somethin cuz I opened the 10th) and then did horrible the last frame. I have to change the way I'm practicing I think. If I can release with the right rotation and revs doing mini releases at home, maybe this weekend I should try doing one step approaches and releasing it properly and then slowly add on? Does that sound good? I'll try to get some video, as well.

[billf]

That is probably the best way to go. 1 step drill fixes a lot of stuff.

[rab91787]

May have just made a breakthrough! I know I can release correctly with thumb when I take mini backswing and practice at home, but that's because my hands cupped and under ball at release too. I can never get under my ball during the downswing when I try a full swing, but I think that may be because I'm staying too upright. When I stay too tall I think I'm depending solely on my wrist to get under the ball which is damn near impossible, but I tried a couple swings and just really dropped my right shoulder to get under the ball and was able to do it! I'm going to stop by the alley and test it out one game after work tomorrow.

[billf]

Congrats! That's the whole point to Joe Slowinski's DYDS campaign (drop your damn shoulder). Sorry, I should have asked if you were staying under the ball. Too upright killed me the last two nights.

[rab91787]

Well I tried getting under the ball like I could on mini swings and once again I wasn't able to replicate it. BUT it wasn't a complete failure. By dropping shoulder and getting low I was still getting a moderate hook due to a visible increase in revs, so that's a minor success! I was able to play a Walter Ray type line at 19mph and was getting a lot of carry. I struck the first four and when I hit light in the 5th, I experimented for more hook a few more frames to no success. I went back to the right side at the end and still ended up with 197. I really do want to figure out how to play from the left, though, on a PDW type line.

[Tampabaybob]

As much as I greatly value Joe Slowinskis advice and knowledge, this article was written in 1996. Now, a lot of things have changed during these 16 years, through lots of trial and error, not to mention all the changes that have taken place in balls and lane oils.

The process he's demonstrating is what's called suitcasing the ball. Basically doing little or nothing as far as a wrist rotation or a finger lifting motion. this would have been taught in the eighties and early 90's but not in todays world of aggressive balls.

Bob

[Tampabaybob]

Watch these two videos I think they'll help explain some of your questions.

SloMo 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00q9veGknzg
SloMo 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIyiDCcbhs4

Bob

[rab91787]

I've seen just about every bowling release video on youtube. I love how Rhino Page can keep a cupped wrist the entire downswing. If I could do that I would be fine. I don't know if it's just a strength issue or a technique issue. I really don't want to spend 70 dollars to get a cupping brace, either.

[Tampabaybob]

I would not start by cupping. Try to leave your wrist straight, (meaning not bending your wrist backwards), thumb at 2:00, fingers at 8:00, and as the ball passes your leg, turn the hell out of your wrist.

Bob

[rab91787]

Will that allow me to play from inside to the outside part of the lane? I will add that to my to-do list when I do the 3 hour practice special on Sunday lol

[billf]

Another thing, if you're throwing it 19mph, that's not PDW style. There is a reason he has one of the slowest, if not the slowest, ball speeds on tour and it isn't his age. To play the inside part of the lane you need to be rev dominate. As hard as Tommy Jones throws the ball, he is still rev dominate.
Also, there is nothing wrong with playing the outside line with speed and power. If that line is good enough for WRW Jr then it's sure as hell good enough for me.

[billf]

I would not start by cupping. Try to leave your wrist straight, (meaning not bending your wrist backwards), thumb at 2:00, fingers at 8:00, and as the ball passes your leg, turn the hell out of your wrist.

Bob

I already gave that release position in post 20 but thanks for backing it up.

[rab91787]

I would just like to learn how to be more rev dominant with my thumb in the ball in case I face conditions where it would benefit me. I'm only a one-trick pony right now and want to be a little more versatile.

[billf]

Try them all, learn them all, practice them all. When I practice I will pick a style/release and use it all across the lane from 1 to 40. Some of the shots look like crap BUT I learn how, when and where to use each style, release, etc. so maximize each night.

[aoboy_15]

Take a light ball and practice spinng the ball with your thumb in. keep doing that till you get the motion right. Then slowly move up in weight.

[rab91787]

Okay I give up. The only thing I can think of is that my thumb is not drilled correctly. It is impossible for me to focus on rotating the fingers on a full release because I can't relax my hand during the swing. It's not that I don't know how to do the motion, because I can do it taking mini swings on to my bed. On a full swing, though, I think because of the grip I need to put on my ball I can't let it roll like it should. Oh well.

[Tampabaybob]

rab......two things.....If you have a good proshop operator go to him and ask him to check your pitches on your thumb. Start by explaining what's happening and what you're trying to accomplish. If he thinks a different pitch could help, start with a ball you normally wouldn't use all the time and experiment with that. The second thing, if that doesn't work, is to find a "good" accredited coach and spend an hour with him. It might be the best $$ you can spend.

Bob

[rab91787]

I don't have one... and I find out AFTER I get my Virtual Gravity drilled that the shop I used isn't very good. I saw online that there are "thumb socks" that can be used to help hold your thumb in. Maybe I will try that if putting a bunch of tape in doesn't help. Until I get some tape, though, I've been trying to focus on staying completely relaxed bowling thumbless and it seems to really help the ball read the lane rather than hook uncontrollably, so I should be able to get my average up until I figure out my thumb situation.

[Tampabaybob]

Don't know much about the thumb sock, have never seen them or anyone use them. Won't hurt to try. Ask some of the 'higher average' bowlers in the house you bowl in who drills their equipment and where they are located. Most good bowlers are usually more than willing to help.

Bob

[AngeloPD]

rab......two things.....If you have a good proshop operator go to him and ask him to check your pitches on your thumb. Start by explaining what's happening and what you're trying to accomplish. If he thinks a different pitch could help, start with a ball you normally wouldn't use all the time and experiment with that. The second thing, if that doesn't work, is to find a "good" accredited coach and spend an hour with him. It might be the best $$ you can spend.

Bob

I called my pro shop earlier regarding my thumb pitch because i tend to grip the ball with my thumb at the very bottom of the down swing. He said I'm griping the ball because i was muscling it down, when i tried to just let the ball fall in motion i still grip the ball with my thumb!

My thumb reverse pitch is 1/4, is that too much or too little? you guys think i should re-drill my thumb hole and adjust the pitch?

[Zothen]

AngeloPD-That was 1 of the problems I had! 1/4 right and 1/4 down I think was what I had. Changed to 0 pitch with slightly snug fit. Took about 2 weeks of practice to get used to not squeezing the ball. Now I have a much better track on my ball and i'm not coming over top of ball like I used to. If you don't want to change pitches,you can try a thumb straight. Thumb straight helps keep your thumb straight.

Zothen

[AngeloPD]

AngeloPD-That was 1 of the problems I had! 1/4 right and 1/4 down I think was what I had. Changed to 0 pitch with slightly snug fit. Took about 2 weeks of practice to get used to not squeezing the ball. Now I have a much better track on my ball and i'm not coming over top of ball like I used to. If you don't want to change pitches,you can try a thumb straight. Thumb straight helps keep your thumb straight.

Zothen

Mine is 1/8 left and 1/4 down, right now i have Ron Clifton's magic carpet to make it snug but i still grab the ball with my thumb! Zothen, how did you manage to fix your pitch? is it just trial and error? would you recommend me going to your driller? I want to change my pitch but my driller insisted that im squeezing the ball because im muscling it down, as i said, i let the ball fall in motion and i still squeeze on the bottom of the down swing. maybe this is why i have a very low track on my ball and my ball spins so ugly haha

[Zothen]

AngeloPD-I would suggets talking to my pro guy first and get a second opinion before changing. Going to a 0 pitch is something to consider once you get another opinion. I corrected mine by putting a thumb slug in my ball and drilling it for snug fit,then adjusting the snugness so I could get my thumb out.

Zothen

[rab91787]

Went to a rock n glow last night and worked on my 2 finger technique. Had 8 strikes first game for a 212 I think, then a 190 something, but once the oil broke down I was doomed. If I stood at the gutter and drifted left during my approach I'd hit 1-3 half the time, but I didn't have a good game after that. I'm thinking of getting a entry-level reactive ball from another pro shop and having them drill it for max length in order to control the ball once the lanes dry up.

[billf]

Thumb pitch is a personal thing and one that's hard to get correct, or at least find a driller to get correct. The frustrating part is how much is affects rotation, tilt, revs, accuracy and speed. With so many "certified" drillers that can't seem to get the proper thumb pitch and/or fit, it's no wonder so many bowlers struggle to improve and others just abandon the game.

I've had three very experienced drillers come up with totally different spans and pitches for me. I let the one that fits and works best drill them. What's even nicer is he is now letting me lay out my own balls. Next for me is a new spare ball so the thumb pitch will be the same, let's see if that helps my spare game some.

[bowl1820]

If you want a starting point for thumb pitch you can try this

For the laterial pitch.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/thumb/3/33/Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg/250px-Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg
Lateral pitches found with a standard sized beverage can, can be calculated using figure 2.
For a right hander, negative is left and positive is right pitch.
For a left hander, negative is right and positive is left pitch.
The proper lateral pitch in the image is 0.


For the forward or reverse, look at the thumb angle section of Mo's fitting guide here:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/2/26/MorichFitting.pdf

then use the thumb angle pitch chart here:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/4/41/Thumbanglechart.JPG

Alternate links
Okay heres a different link to the fitting guide:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/c/cb/ThumbAngleInstructions.pdf

And heres a different link to the thumb angle chart:
http://www.innovativebowling.com/pro%20shop%20info/Thumb_Angle_Conversion_Pitch_Chart.gif

For the laterial pitch
634

[AngeloPD]

bowl1820, the first picture is not working. could you fix it please. thanks!

and also the second wiki link too

[bowl1820]

bowl1820, the first picture is not working. could you fix it please. thanks! and also the second wiki link too

Their working here and there's nothing I can change or fix.

All I can do is repost them
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/thumb/3/33/Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg/250px-Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/2/26/MorichFitting.pdf (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MorichFitting.pdf)

http://www.innovativebowling.com/pro%20shop%20info/Thumb_Angle_Conversion_Pitch_Chart.gif

[billf]

First works..for some reason the second says forbidden.

[bowl1820]

Okay heres a different link to the fitting guide:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/c/cb/ThumbAngleInstructions.pdf

And heres a different link to the thumb angle chart:
http://www.innovativebowling.com/pro%20shop%20info/Thumb_Angle_Conversion_Pitch_Chart.gif


http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/thumb/3/33/Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg/250px-Lateral_thumbpitch.jpg

For the laterial pitch
634

[AngeloPD]

Here's my grip
http://imageshack.us/a/img254/9436/20120907185357.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/20120907185357.jpg/)



According to the chart, my ideal reverse pitch would be 1/8?

[bowl1820]

Here's my grip
http://imageshack.us/a/img254/9436/20120907185357.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/20120907185357.jpg/)

According to the chart, my ideal reverse pitch would be 1/8?

If your asking is that (1/8) correct, we'd need the thumb angle you determined and your actual span (Doe's the sheet show actual span or cut to cut span).

Will that be your ideal pitch? It's a starting point. It might be perfect or it may need to be adjusted, each person's flexibility is different.

[AngeloPD]

I believe the sheet shows the cut to cut span

[bowl1820]

I believe the sheet shows the cut to cut span

Okay and what was your thumb Angle?

Also I see your using powlerlifts, are you using the flat side or the oval?
http://www.viseinserts.com/images/power_lift_oval.jpg

[rab91787]

Rather than thinking about rotation and clock positions and all that, I think next time I practice with thumb I'm going to try only this until I get it working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdMhD9jTko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdMhD9jTko

Releasing the ball like an underhand spiral with thumb at 1 o clock position should give a decent hook, right? If I know that and ONLY try that then I'll know when I get it.

[bowl1820]

Rather than thinking about rotation and clock positions and all that, I think next time I practice with thumb I'm going to try only this until I get it working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdMhD9jTko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCdMhD9jTko

Releasing the ball like an underhand spiral with thumb at 1 o clock position should give a decent hook, right? If I know that and ONLY try that then I'll know when I get it.

The Football drill is a widely used method for getting the hand motion your looking for. Just be careful not to come over the top of the ball, this can cause you to throw the elbow out.

There is a newer drill using a softball that works also, but eliminates the possible elbow movement. Don't have a video yet to post yet of it.

[rab91787]

Cool. So if I practice ONLY this motion and maintain thumb angle at about 1 o clock, should I be looking to achieve a hook of maybe straight down first arrow and into 1-3? Or more or less? I have no idea how much hook I should get when I actually release it properly with thumb, so a general idea would be good so I know when I actually do it correctly.

[bowl1820]

Cool. So if I practice ONLY this motion and maintain thumb angle at about 1 o clock, should I be looking to achieve a hook of maybe straight down first arrow and into 1-3? Or more or less? I have no idea how much hook I should get when I actually release it properly with thumb, so a general idea would be good so I know when I actually do it correctly.

There's too many variables to say just how much hook you'd get. Simplest thing is to try it and see how it compares to what you did before.

[AngeloPD]

Okay and what was your thumb Angle?

Also I see your using powlerlifts, are you using the flat side or the oval?
http://www.viseinserts.com/images/power_lift_oval.jpg

i have the flat side, and i dont know my thumb angle

[bowl1820]

i have the flat side, and i dont know my thumb angle

Since you don't know your thumb angle, that means you didn't do other steps to find the pitchs correctly in the first place. So that means 1/8 reverse isn't right.

Go back to the other posts with the links and do the fitting guide to find your thumb angle.

As for the Powerlifts since your using the flat side. this would throw off the your finger pitchs.

Your drill sheet shows you have a 1/8 reverse pitch on the fingerholes.

But by using the powerlifts they add 1/4 forward pitch, so that put's your fingers pitch around a 1/8 forward.

That can throw off your grip and release and can change the roll on the ball.

If you were originally measured for a 1/8 reverse fingers, why did you go to the power lifts?

[AngeloPD]

Since you don't know your thumb angle, that means you didn't do other steps to find the pitchs correctly in the first place. So that means 1/8 reverse isn't right.

Go back to the other posts with the links and do the fitting guide to find your thumb angle.

As for the Powerlifts since your using the flat side. this would throw off the your finger pitchs.

Your drill sheet shows you have a 1/8 reverse pitch on the fingerholes.

But by using the powerlifts they add 1/4 forward pitch, so that put's your fingers pitch around a 1/8 forward.

That can throw off your grip and release and can change the roll on the ball.

If you were originally measured for a 1/8 reverse fingers, why did you go to the power lifts?

i went with power lifts because thats what i had when i started bowling 9 years ago, then after 2 years of bowling i stopped for almost 7 years then got back to bowling again.

[rab91787]

Bowled two straight games concentrating on football release and could not get anything consistent. Anytime I'd miss by a fraction, it didn't have enough hook to recover at all. At least with two finger style I have a margin of error from all the power. :(

[Tampabaybob]

After you release the ball, is your thumb pointing up to the ceiling (fairly close to 12:00) ? If your thumb is at 9:00 or 10:00 then you're going over the top of the ball. In other words turning it too soon. The football release requires you to leave your thumb at the 1:00 position all the way thru your backswing and just to the point of release. As your thumb STARTS coming out of the ball, THAT"S when you want to rotate with your wrist and fingers. The area next to your slide leg should be your explosion point with the wrist and fingers. Check your hand position after you release the ball. Hold your stance at the foul line and look at your thumb (is it somewhat straight up ?), and look at your elbow (is for elbow too far away from your body?) Those two things will make you go over the top of the ball and lose rotation and roll.

Bob

[rab91787]

Hmm... I'll have to check. I figured out how to do Jason Belmonte's shovel backswing last night, so during league warmups if I can get my ballspeed high enough to keep the ball on track with thumbless I'm going to go with that tonight since I couldn't get thumb down practicing yesterday.

[Tampabaybob]

Not many people have the ability to throw both ways. My take on this, is that you may end up with the ability to shoot both ways. With that said, that's a huge advantage you will have over 90% of the other bowlers you'll run up against. Being able to do both will help you on varying conditions. Continue not using your thumb in the league and practice with your thumb in practice. When you feel you have a handle on using your thumb try it some nite in the league. OR, if you're having a rough nite not using your thumb switch over to style number two and see if it works for you. It'll require using different spots on the lane and that could just open up a whole new area for you.

Bob

[rab91787]

I like your style! I tried thumb with my Virtual Gravity and was having no luck with carry. I also couldn't get a good shot off with thumbless grip either and was going nuts. I had two **** poor games to start but at the end of the 2nd I switched to my old Brunswick Power Groove and the glossy finish helped me keep a good grip on it every shot and increased length. If I wouldn't have pulled my 2nd shot in the 10th due to nerves I woulda had a game in the 240's for the first time in years. I ended up with a 228 :D The last game I had success using no thumb for strike ball and then thumb for spares.

[Tampabaybob]

Consider having two entirely different releases just another trick you have in your bag of tricks. Again, that could put you over the top of what many bowlers can pull out of theirs.

Bob

[rab91787]

I have a lot of work to do to make my thumb release effective for a strike ball. I'll keep working on it, though.

[Ball99999]

I think I have things figured out.

It never made sense for a long time because people said "Throw like an underhand football" which never made sense to me.

Then someone brought up the turning the door knob THEN It started making sense how to properly release the ball (I originally thought I had to actually twist the fingers by themselves which was impossible for me but then I realized you have to use the muscles in your fingers, wrist and fore-forearm).

So here's how I think you do it. Make sure your elbow and hind-forearm always point forward. (Hind forearm being the half next to elbow and fore forearm being the half next to the hand). Now the clock analogy people use gets confusing because if you looked the side of a bowling ball perpendicular to the lane/gutter (picture a line drawn from the foul line to the pins), your thumb will end up in the 9/10 position and your fingers will end up in the 3, 4 or 5 position.

So instead of thinking about where your thumb is pointing to in relation to a clock, think of a straight line going through your thumb... it should end up relatively parallel to the lane/gutter and not pointed toward the left since that means you're creating a spinning (spinning a top) motion.

Now I think, as a progression on that, instead of turning your hand like a doorknob, make the same motion but try to keep the thumb in the same position; it'll look like the fingers are rotating around the thumb from the left side, pointing downish to the right side pointing forward.

I originally had a release like this but because I didn't know about keeping wrist firm I was coming around the ball and spinning it so I banned myself from ever doing it for a whole year.

[rab91787]

Ball I tried the hold thumb at 12 and turn fingers with mini swings at home and it looks good! I knew the thumb at 12 o clock thing but if I focused on that then I wouldn't really focus on fingers. I tried a bunch of releases focusing on keeping thumb at 12 and turning fingers toward my thumb and the ball was coming out with decent revs at 45 degrees! I'll have to try it this weekend and see if it works on a full swing.

[Tampabaybob]

I think I have things figured out.

It never made sense for a long time because people said "Throw like an underhand football" which never made sense to me.

Then someone brought up the turning the door knob THEN It started making sense how to properly release the ball (I originally thought I had to actually twist the fingers by themselves which was impossible for me but then I realized you have to use the muscles in your fingers, wrist and fore-forearm).

So here's how I think you do it. Make sure your elbow and hind-forearm always point forward. (Hind forearm being the half next to elbow and fore forearm being the half next to the hand). Now the clock analogy people use gets confusing because if you looked the side of a bowling ball perpendicular to the lane/gutter (picture a line drawn from the foul line to the pins), your thumb will end up in the 9/10 position and your fingers will end up in the 3, 4 or 5 position.

So instead of thinking about where your thumb is pointing to in relation to a clock, think of a straight line going through your thumb... it should end up relatively parallel to the lane/gutter and not pointed toward the left since that means you're creating a spinning (spinning a top) motion.

Now I think, as a progression on that, instead of turning your hand like a doorknob, make the same motion but try to keep the thumb in the same position; it'll look like the fingers are rotating around the thumb from the left side, pointing downish to the right side pointing forward.

I originally had a release like this but because I didn't know about keeping wrist firm I was coming around the ball and spinning it so I banned myself from ever doing it for a whole year.


I Love to see it when The Light Bulb turns on !! Congrats on getting it figured out, now get out there and make it work for you.

Bob

[Tampabaybob]

Ball I tried the hold thumb at 12 and turn fingers with mini swings at home and it looks good! I knew the thumb at 12 o clock thing but if I focused on that then I wouldn't really focus on fingers. I tried a bunch of releases focusing on keeping thumb at 12 and turning fingers toward my thumb and the ball was coming out with decent revs at 45 degrees! I'll have to try it this weekend and see if it works on a full swing.

rab, where is your thumb ending up "after you release the ball" ? If you're starting with your the at 12:00, I hope your thumb is coming out "before" you turn the ball with your wrist and fingers. Otherwise you're going to come over the top of the ball and you don't want that to happen. If you are going over the top with your thumb try starting the thumb at 1:00 or even 2:00. Just try to have your thumb come out early enough so it will stay pretty much straight up at the ceiling after you release.

Bob

[rab91787]

I have no idea... like I said, I know when I tried before and focused on one thing the other part would go wrong. If I focused on thumb straight I'd get good revs but no tilt so it didn't matter. If I focused on fingers my thumb would go over the top. I was planning on practicing today but I'm coming down with a cold so decided to wait until tomorrow or the weekend. If I can't get it doing ball's method then I'll have to record it to see what I'm doing wrong.

[Ball99999]

I Love to see it when The Light Bulb turns on !! Congrats on getting it figured out, now get out there and make it work for you.

Bob

Yeah feels good to finally get it but frustrating to know I could have gotten it long ago.

I started bowling seriously a year ago or so. And I went online to see how to hook and they said twist your hand at the bottom of a swing... so I'd practice on the Wii bowling doing it.. turns out I was doing it right lol. But when I got a real bowling ball I ended up doing kind of the same thing but it was more of a chicken wing spinning thing. Not bad, I do recall some strong hook but the two coaches (Teachers of two consecutive bowling classes) told me under no uncertain terms 1) you don't ever twist your wrist and 2) you are supposed to lift with your fingers and that they should be sore after a night of bowling from so much lifting. It blocked me from even realizing I had it right to begin with.

[rab91787]

Ok I finally got my buddy to go to the Sunday special with me so I had someone to record. I helped him change his form because he was really bending at the elbow to get under the ball and get a big hook but was injuring himself a lot, so I helped him figure out a more stroker-tweener release. It's sad that I can help him change his form but can't get my ball to hook with thumb :( Here I am (excuse the MC Hammer pants, they are old and apparently don't fit anymore). The strike ball from side view looks good to me I have no idea why it only hooks slightly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rytC1iV49HQ&hd=1o

Make sure you set it to 720p or else it's hard to see. I recorded using my iPhone.

[billf]

I saved it, converted and analyzed using Storm's know your game software. Your arm at about 6" behind your back, your hand is on top of the ball from there through the release. You're well under the ball in the back swing. That's the biggest thing I see stealing your hook. Your slide knee doesn't stay bent long enough either meaning you're coming up on the shot. If you can keep your hand under the ball and stay down on the shot it will hook.

[rab91787]

Oooo that sounds like a neat program. I have no idea how to keep hand under ball. I have tried maintaining a cupped wrist with thumb in but can't do it right with a full swing for some reason. I can do it with mini swings at home, but once I take an actual full swing I can't do it. I'll have to experiment some more, I guess. I did have two 190's and two low 200's bowling thumbless today, though, so I should atleast post some good scores this week :)

[Tampabaybob]

rab...good video. The i-phone's not too bad, it's clear enough. Yes, clear enough for me to see you're not bending your knee at the foul line, not staying down at the line, and kicking your "BALANCE" leg up in the air instead of keeping it low or better yet on the floor ! Ok, just watched it again (6x), and your balance is completely off at the foul line. You should be able to to stay on your left leg balanced (until the ball drops off of the pin deck).

Knee bend should be about 47 degrees at the line (and don't ask how the hell to measure that !) and your torso should be leaning out over the slide leg with your right leg EXTENDED to the floor and your left. Your arm swing and ball should be swinging in a straight line, under your chin.

Just had exactly the same thing with one of my junior bowlers on Saturday. Leg up in the air, and off balance at the line. Wish I lived near you, because it's really a quick fix. Maybe a little uncomfortable at first, but it's where you will get the most and strongest leverage to throw the ball. It will also get the ball closer to your leg (not a big problem from the video) and get the ball released lower to the floor. By not bending, you're essentially rearing up at the line.

I always kid around with the kids, that I'll go out to my car, and get my "bowling 2 x 4 " to help them get my point. They laugh and think it's funny,,,,,one of these day's I think I'll paint one up and bring it with me. LOL

Keep at it, send us another video, and lets see what you can do.

Bob

[AngeloPD]

Rab, you can try doing this release. When i tried it, it worked for the first time but i noticed i was releasing the ball a bit late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQr22IQnmZk

[billf]

[I have no idea how to keep hand under ball. I have tried maintaining a cupped wrist with thumb in but can't do it right with a full swing for some reason. I can do it with mini swings at home, but once I take an actual full swing I can't do it. I'll have to experiment some more, I guess.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying you bowl thumbless which requires the bowler to keep the hand under the ball yet can't do it with thumb in? And you can do it with mini swings but not a full swing yet it's the forward swing where you TURN TOO EARLY and end up on top of the ball. Okay, enough of the irony. We all know there is no way you bowl thumbless with your hand on top of the ball. The thumb is just for balance, not to grip with. Being on top of the ball that soon you have to be gripping it. Keep the feel and motion as close to thumbless as you can only letting the thumb keep the ball of your forearm.

[rab91787]

I can easily keep my hand under the ball thumbless because I can't take a full back swing. I don't hold the ball with my other hand like Belmo and two-handers do. I take a partial backswing with my hand under the ball. I can't replicate that with thumb in... well I guess I could if I took a mini swing but I'd like to be able to do a full swing with thumb and stay under the ball.

[rab91787]

Thanks for the responses! I'll have to work on keeping my hand under the ball, trying that yo yo release again some, and making sure I have my left leg bent. I have a lot more knee bend doing thumbless since I stay low the whole approach. Now atleast I have some more things to work on next practice session :)

[billf]

You can do it. Try during a practice session doing the one-step approach drill with a full swing. Concentrate on feeling and being under the ball. Don't worry about the score or the reaction for this time.

[Tampabaybob]

rab....you have all the pieces of the puzzle, just put them together. Slow your feet down just a little and get that knee bent at the line and I think you'll be fine. Do another video in a couple of weeks and show us the improvement.

Bob

[rab91787]

I defintely am going to work on the thumb release some more on Sunday. Tonight I started off good with a 201, but as soon as the lanes started drying out I could not get a consistent reaction. I threw five or six splits the second game and completely bombed it. I managed to scrap out a 160 something the third game and we managed to win, but I need to figure out my thumb release soon since I cannot find any consistency thumbless. I think the biggest thing I'm going to focus on is cupping my wrist at bottom of swing to make sure I'm under the ball at release. I may go Fagan style and just stay relaxed the entire swing until I need to cup. I know I stay under the ball good during the backswing now and that doesn't help at all. I'm going to focus on cupping at the right time and also making sure I keep my left knee bent and right shoulder low. Thanks for the tips!

[rab91787]

I tried two and a half damn games to get hand under ball using thumb and failed miserably. I tried everything I could think of. The only slight success I had was taking miniature backswings similar to how I do when I don't use thumb. That worked with thumb in the ball but it wasn't really more affective than just taking my thumb out of the ball anyway. :(

[Zothen]

Rab here is a drill that helped me! Take a football and toss the ball underhanded and make sure you put a spiral on it. This will simulate throwing a bowling ball.

Zothen

[Tampabaybob]

I defintely am going to work on the thumb release some more on Sunday. Tonight I started off good with a 201, but as soon as the lanes started drying out I could not get a consistent reaction. I threw five or six splits the second game and completely bombed it. I managed to scrap out a 160 something the third game and we managed to win, but I need to figure out my thumb release soon since I cannot find any consistency thumbless. I think the biggest thing I'm going to focus on is cupping my wrist at bottom of swing to make sure I'm under the ball at release. I may go Fagan style and just stay relaxed the entire swing until I need to cup. I know I stay under the ball good during the backswing now and that doesn't help at all. I'm going to focus on cupping at the right time and also making sure I keep my left knee bent and right shoulder low. Thanks for the tips!

Something is bothering me about this one line - "I threw five or six splits the second game and completely bombed it." You were going brooklyn and or hitting the nose, were you moving left as soon as you left the first one? Did you make sure you were hitting your target and not lifting your eyes which makes you pull the ball? Ask yourself those questions and when you go practice on Sunday "make sure" you're seeing that ball hit your target. If you are, MOVE quickly. Change your entire shot. Maybe one entire arrow on the lane.

Bob

[rab91787]

Bob, that was bowling thumbless. I move left but sometimes if I do I overcompensate and end up getting more backend and still go through the nose. I definitely did better last night going thumbless than I did with thumb. I could not get the same feeling at all.

[Tampabaybob]

ok, was wondering what was happening.

Bob

[rab91787]

I definitely could not get my hand under the ball at all last night with a full swing no matter what. I guess next weekend I could try to just focus on keeping my hand behind the ball and doing the underhand spiral motion to try and increase revs. I have to focus back on thumbless though to prepare for leagues Tuesday as we play the first place team and if we win all three we'll take first place.

[Tampabaybob]

It's funny you mentioned that. Thursday night I went into my garage and pulled out a Brunswick Power groove "DRY R" because our lanes have been absolutely awful lately. Got to the lanes, polished it up and used it second and third game. Problem solved, no runaway hook !!! You've got the right ball !

Bob