Trying to get axis rotation, rotating fingers around ball?

[Ball99999]

I'm trying to rotate my fingers around the ball now... does it feel like you're partially lifting with the sides of your fingers? I don't want to break my fingers or anything if I'm doing it wrong.

If I really cup my wrist I can get a lot of axis rotation... but would that create too much hook?

Orrr is all that need is to cock my wrist (not cup, though I could cup when I need hook) to get axis rotation?

[Ball99999]

I think I found the problem.. I was
Convinced the rotation had to be after the thumb came out. If I rotate before thumb comes out much easier to do

[Ball99999]

Tried everything tonight. I think I want to cut my hand off. Can't get side roll to save my life.

[Zothen]

Try throwing the ball as if your going to shake someones hand and bring hand & forearm to side of your head. If done right,you will create lift and roll.

Zothen

[Ball99999]

But are you lifting with the sides of the tips of your fingers?

[Tampabaybob]

Ok, to get the best roll AND axis rotation your thumb should be 'on the way out' of the ball as you start rotating your wrist and "LIFTING" with your fingers. Remember, your thumb is only there to help hang onto the ball and the work/motion is handled by your wrist and fingers. One of the hardest things is to "FEEL" your hand coming past your leg, which is where your rotation starts. If you start it before then your hand/thumb is going to go over the top of the ball. Try a few swings standing at the foul line next time you practice and actually WATCH your arm swinging and your hand coming down thru the back swing and coming past your leg. Then go back to your full approach and try it. It's not the hardest thing in the world to do but you do have to feel it. Start keeping your wrist straight instead of cupping.....one step at a time. Keep your thumb at about 2:00 all the way thru and start the release as your hand is passing your slide leg. Try it and let me know if that helps. And yes, you are lifting with the tips of your fingers !

Bob

[Ball99999]

The tips yes, but are you lifting with the sides of the tips as well?

I've done practices at home and it's easy, and it's also easy to get side rotation without using a thumb. But when actually bowling and with a thumb, it just never happens for me. I can't seem to feel it. And it happens so fast.

Also trying to figure out if you can ONLY turn when the thumb is out or if you can start turning right before the thumb will leave.

[bowl1820]

The tips yes, but are you lifting with the sides of the tips as well?

Your lifting with the pads of the fingers. The Rotation of the ball comes as the thumb exits the ball, the wrist rotates the (RH)hand counterclockwise where the fingers release the ball.

It would be kinda like turning a dial, where you grip the dial with the pads of your fingers and turn it by rotating your wrist.

[Zothen]

Bowl99999 do you live in the area of Los Angeles,CA? If you do,I would be glad to help you.

Zothen

[AngeloPD]

Zothen, maybe you can help me? :D

[Tampabaybob]

Of course you'll feel the ball on the edges of your finger tips somewhat as the ball leaves your hand. As bowl1820 stated you're gripping it with the pads of your fingers, but as you rotate it at the point of release you may feel some pressure on the sides of your finger tips. It's normal, don't worry about it. If the ball is drilled correctly your ball should come of your hand comfortably.

Bob

[Zothen]

@AngeloPD-I'm free Tues,Thurs,Sat & sunday mornings after 11a.

Zothen

[AngeloPD]

Zothen, tuesday before 5pm maybe around 4? right before my league starts. are you free?

[Ball99999]

Your lifting with the pads of the fingers. The Rotation of the ball comes as the thumb exits the ball, the wrist rotates the (RH)hand counterclockwise where the fingers release the ball.

It would be kinda like turning a dial, where you grip the dial with the pads of your fingers and turn it by rotating your wrist.

See this is what I have a problem with though. If I only lift with the pads then I'm lifting end over end, no side rotation. I don't know how else to rotate counter clockwise unless I'm doing it with the sides of my finger tips.

So it's ok to rotate with the wrist? People confuse me when they say rotate with the fingers.

[Ball99999]

Bowl99999 do you live in the area of Los Angeles,CA? If you do,I would be glad to help you.

Zothen

No :( but I wish I did lol. I really appreciate the offer I'd take you up if I could. I can't believe how much of a problem I'm having with side rotation.

[billf]

So many threads with the same discussion. If you rotate the middle and ring fingers the wrist will naturally rotate. If you try to purposely rotate the wrist and not the fingers the ball will spin but will not generate any usable revs. Rotating the wrist from facing up, as in the down swing, to facing towards you, as done in the handshake drill, produces the axis angle but does not produce any revs. It only dictates the axis direction that the revs the fingers produce. So if you properly rotate the fingers fast enough (revs) and far enough for the wrist to naturally rotate (axis rotation) you can control both the rev rate and the axis rotation.

This is so much easier to show in person. BTW, the sides of my fingers are calloused from the side rotation I generate. That's one of the reason I learned to play the inside of the ball, to save my fingers. By playing the inside part of the ball you start with the ball weight on the sides and end on the pads. The other way you start on the pads and end on the sides.

Any of that make any sense? To me it does but I also know what I'm trying to say so I have an advantage.

[Zothen]

Bowl9999 I would ask your pro shop if they could show you. It's difficult to explain without showing how to release and I think you will benefit more by someone showing you,then keep trying to explain it. I learned by someone showing me how to throw a finger tip ball,now the ball rotation comes naturally.

Zothen

[Zothen]

AngeloPD-4 should be fine! Do you normally bowl at Jewel City in Glendale or are you in the San Fenando Valley(Northridge,Mission Hills,etc)?

Zothen

[AngeloPD]

AngeloPD-4 should be fine! Do you normally bowl at Jewel City in Glendale or are you in the San Fenando Valley(Northridge,Mission Hills,etc)?

Zothen

Hey Zothen, i pm'd you

[rab91787]

BTW, the sides of my fingers are calloused from the side rotation I generate. That's one of the reason I learned to play the inside of the ball, to save my fingers. By playing the inside part of the ball you start with the ball weight on the sides and end on the pads. The other way you start on the pads and end on the sides.

This is what I would like to figure out. So to go from sides to pads, you start with the weight on the left side of your fingers with pads facing right and then finish with pads up? Wouldn't you still need to push fingers past 12 o clock anyway or no?

[Zothen]

Your hand should be around 5 or 6 o'clock and when you release the ball,your index finger should be around 3 o'clock and when finished index should be by your ear which is 12 o'clock. Basically your turning your hand 1/4 up not half way. 1/4 up will give you your side rotation if done right. If the ball goes end over end,you did'nt put any lift on the ball.

Zothen

[rab91787]

Ok I can kind of see that in the PDW release video (the only one I've found even tho his release is so smooth and effective).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlATUjFf1QA

Is it necessary to go from the inside to the ball and then to the outside before u do the finger rotation? He seems to make the change so early that I don't see how it would help add revs other than just get his hand into position to turn. It looks like he takes his fingers in the path you described but not until getting his hand on the right side of the ball.

[bowl1820]

Maybe this can help, several pic of the release here:

Click for The Bowler’s Release (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip20.htm)

Click for LEARNING NEW RELEASES (part 1) (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip35.htm)

part 2 (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip36.htm)

part 3 (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip37.htm)

part 4 (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip38.htm)

http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/New%20Releases/Tilt%201%20copy.jpg
The black arrow shows the path the fingers will take as the release takes place.

[billf]

Here is a video of Sean Rash and Ronnie Russel in slow motion. They both play the inside part of the ball. The motion starts on the downswing due to how fast the swing is.

http://youtu.be/6rtFHyZPj3Y

[AngeloPD]

Thanks bowl1820 and Bill! i will try these next time i practice :D

[Ball99999]

Just an update on my *new* unifying hypothesis on what is wrong with my game (low ball speed, no axis rotation, difficulty turning the ball) is that I have been very very late on the ball as well as hitting up on the ball. Ron Clifton had a tip of creating a landing zone. I notice some people can launch their ball silently while mine hits with a thud. I think that might be causing a lot of problem. If I think about it, if I launch the ball when it's traveling up, it still has momentum of wanting to go up as well as forward and I think that could be cutting off a lot of ball speed.

[Ball99999]

Also to consider, when I started a year ago and learned "how to hook" I had this idea in my head I had to spin the ball, and I WOULD turn the ball as if I was turning a door knob. People pointed out that my hand was on top of the ball and came around so much that it was just spinning like a top so I specifically trained myself not to do that. Maybe that's what I've been fighting this whole time.

Now that I realize I need to turn my forearm I might be on the verge of a breakthrough.

What I'll do now is hopefully create a good flat spot, uncup by my hips whilst rotating my forearm and then letting my fingertips do the last bit of push off.

I might even over do it and then back off from that point, at least I'd have some side rotation.

[Zothen]

Ball9999-Do this excersize at home! Make sure you have large area in house where you can roll a ball. Get on your knees,hold back of hand on floor with ball in palm of hand and do a simulated ball release by moving arm forward while bring your hand up to a handshake postion and ending movement by your ear. If you do it right you will see that the ball will have a side roll to it. Do that about 20-30 times every couple hours to build up muscle memory,then go to the lanes and see if that helped.

Zothen

[Tampabaybob]

You can watch a hundred videos and try to emulate them but it's still hard just to be able to execute it when you get out there and try it. Remember these pros will sometimes shoot a hundred games a week and that's what it takes to be able to repeat the same motion over and over and over during a high pressure tournament,

Just looked at PDW's slo mo video and I love the way he finishes with his follow thru. I'd love to be able to copy that myself. Heres another link, this one of Chris Barnes, probably my second best release perfectionist. Try and stop it at 14 secs an between 16 and 18 secs. Notice she his fingers are in relation to his thumb and then notice his thumb "always" is facing up straight and facing straight back. ALL of the rotation is done with his wrist and finger motion. A great style to emulate.

Bob

[billf]

Ummm, Bob, it appears you forgot the video link.

I love Barnes' game. Don't know him but have heard good and bad about his personality.

[AngeloPD]

Where's the link Bob! i want to see!!

[Zothen]

I met Chris Barnes last Tuesday at a seminar I went to. He was very nice and had some great tips for me to use in my sport league.

Zothen

[Ball99999]

Can anyone settle something for me:

Do you impart hook/rotation using ONLY the fingers or do you use part of your forearm and use the same motion as opening a door knob?

[Zothen]

Hook/lift is created by the fingers lifting the ball when the wrist is rotated from 6 o' clock to 3 o'clock.

Zothen

[billf]

Can anyone settle something for me:

Do you impart hook/rotation using ONLY the fingers or do you use part of your forearm and use the same motion as opening a door knob?

Depends. Do you want to throw a correct hook with the least amount of effort and maximize the rev potential or throw the type of hook most intermediate to lower level bowlers throw? The doorknob way is the easiest to teach and learn. And as I've said many times here, if you are rotating your fingers at a fast pace the wrist will rotate naturally. As for the forearm, the lower part by your wrist has to rotate with the wrist but the upper part should not rotate in either style as they would cause the elbow to rotate (chciken wing).

[Ball99999]

I just don't see how it's possible to do the hook thing with just fingers :/

[billf]

I need to copy and paste this. It seems I have to post this at least once a month lol
Hold your arm and hand down on the release position. Watch your body as you slightly uncup the wrist, with thumb at 1:00, rotate your middle and ring fingers to around the 4:00 position. The wrist will rotate. It has to. The finger rotation is beyond the flexibility point of the human hand which causes the wrist to rotate to a slight degree. Naturally the lower half of the forearm has to rotate with the wrist. It has to. It's basic human kinesiology. Now doing this at full speed with the ball weight can create times where the fingers end up closer to 3:30. The goal is index finger at 3:00 which puts the middle finger at 4:00, ring finger at 5:00, thumb on follow through at 12:00.

[billf]

http://youtu.be/bSOorSbT0mI

This video doesn't cover playing the inside part of the ball but that technique appears to be too difficult for most bowlers.

[Ball99999]

Things are allll starting to make sense now

http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip20.htm

Before I would try to really lift the ball using the fingertip grips. Now I'm realizing I don't have to grab at all and just let go.
Right?

[billf]

Yes!

[Tampabaybob]

Sorry guys...here's the slo mo link of Pete Weber.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlATUjFf1QA

Bob

[billf]

Everyone, please take notice of how far under the ball PDW's fingers are in the flat spot of his down swing. Most amateur bowlers closer to the equator taking away a lot of rev potential. The further around the ball the fingers can't turn the ball the more revs it will generate. That isn't the hand turning but rather the ball rolling off the end of the fingers. If you can get it to roll of the fingers for say half the ball compared to a quarter of the ball you will generate more revs.