Lol now my ball speed is too high.

[Ball99999]

I think I figured out how to get high ball speed, I really learned how to just let the ball drop and it really drives my arm back. I don't know what I was doing before, I guess it wasn't really a free arm swing.

I consistently got 16+ mph on Qubica. This is pretty good yes?

I just can't curve the ball lately.

[striker12]

well if you bring your arms up and down on the starting stance that can change your ball speed i hold my hands as low as i can and i still throw 18-19mph so i shortened my backswing and it has brought it down to 16-17mph but when you change speed your release could have chnaged soo my best way of getting back the hook is going back to the basic make sure i cna keep the arm swing then i work on th release then i work on getting my hand under the ball.

[AngeloPD]

are you aiming at the 2nd arrow with 16mph?

[Ball99999]

are you aiming at the 2nd arrow with 16mph?

Sometimes, why?

[AngeloPD]

and it doesnt hook??

[Ball99999]

and it doesnt hook??

Last night it hooked. Today, different alley, didn't do ANYthing. I don't get it to be honest. There wasn't that much oil on the lanes. It just... wouldn't even drift left.

[striker12]

well 1 thing i need to ask from the 2 different bowling allies are the lanes different like is 1 wood and 1 the other one(can not figure out how to spell)


but also you said there was not much oil on the lane it could be your ball had burned up all the energy before the back part of the lane so it would not hook at all.

[Ball99999]

well 1 thing i need to ask from the 2 different bowling allies are the lanes different like is 1 wood and 1 the other one(can not figure out how to spell)


but also you said there was not much oil on the lane it could be your ball had burned up all the energy before the back part of the lane so it would not hook at all.

THe lanes tonight are almost certainly synthetic.
It had to have energy.. speed was high.. there was more oil than there was last night.

[AngeloPD]

speed was high, but does the rev on the ball match with your speed? if not, then speed will take over and will not hook

[75lockwood]

speed was high, but does the rev on the ball match with your speed? if not, then speed will take over and will not hook

This.

when you increase your ball speed you will loose hook unless you increase your rev rate to match the new speed, however with the higher back swing it may be harder to control the ball (for me it is) and as such you ca loose rev's thus amplifying the problem


Why did you wan't to increase ball speed? sure it gives you more force, but if it takes away from accuracy don't do it. if you want to slow down a bit but keep the same free swing motion, start your ball from a lower rest point, instead of holding at chest height before push away, try waist height.

[Mike White]

well 1 thing i need to ask from the 2 different bowling allies are the lanes different like is 1 wood and 1 the other one(can not figure out how to spell)


You found a word you know you don't know how to spell..

That's amazing considering the quantity of words you don't know you don't know how to spell. :)

[UBowling]

Your ball speed is mostly dictated by your feet. If you start with your ball lower in your stance, your feet have less time to get through the approach before your arm is ready to release the ball so your feet speed up to accommodate and now you have more momentum and more ball speed. The higher in the stance you go, the more time your feet have and the slower they go. Same with moving forward and back with your feet on the approach. The longer the distance the bigger the steps and the faster your momentum is.

You want to get a good ball speed/rpm matchup. If you are 16 mph at the pins, that is about 20 at release and you should be around 400 or so rpm to have a good match. If you are more around 300 rpm the ball won't hook much. If you are around 500 rpm, the ball will hook a ton.

[Ball99999]

My speed before was horribly low, like 13mph. After giving up on speed, I worked on having a really free swing and somehow my body changed how I bowl fundamentally and voila higher speed. I love the kinetic energy but my revs suck now

[AZBowla]

My speed before was horribly low, like 13mph. After giving up on speed, I worked on having a really free swing and somehow my body changed how I bowl fundamentally and voila higher speed. I love the kinetic energy but my revs suck now

This is where I'm at right now, my speed at the pins is about 13 mph versus the 14-16 I was getting with my old ball. I'm going to try a few things to get the speed up now that I have no problems releasing the new ball and getting rev's. Glad I opted to go with a lighter ball for my spare ball so that I can get a couple more MPH out of it once I learn to get my speed up.

[Ball99999]

Your ball speed is mostly dictated by your feet. If you start with your ball lower in your stance, your feet have less time to get through the approach before your arm is ready to release the ball so your feet speed up to accommodate and now you have more momentum and more ball speed. The higher in the stance you go, the more time your feet have and the slower they go. Same with moving forward and back with your feet on the approach. The longer the distance the bigger the steps and the faster your momentum is.

You want to get a good ball speed/rpm matchup. If you are 16 mph at the pins, that is about 20 at release and you should be around 400 or so rpm to have a good match. If you are more around 300 rpm the ball won't hook much. If you are around 500 rpm, the ball will hook a ton.

I have found this to be a case of different for everyone. The lower I hold the ball/pushaway the slower the ball speed.

I need to figure out how to get revs up.

[75lockwood]

I have found this to be a case of different for everyone. The lower I hold the ball/pushaway the slower the ball speed.

I need to figure out how to get revs up.

Cup + Cock is the easiest method of increasing revs, pro's tend to "unload" there wrist to increase rev's further (not recommended, very advanced)

[billf]

if you want to slow down a bit but keep the same free swing motion, start your ball from a lower rest point, instead of holding at chest height before push away, try waist height.

This is an incorrect, old school teaching. Follow the link that should explain why better than I can. Zothan should read this too so I can stop reading about the "push away" lol

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb09.pdf

[Ball99999]

This is an incorrect, old school teaching. Follow the link that should explain why better than I can. Zothan should read this too so I can stop reading about the "push away" lol

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb09.pdf

It's not incorrect it's just that it's different for different people. I wonder if people starting the ball earlier are pushing the armswing back with their arm?
Anyway when I start higher it goes faster, start lower it goes slower.

[Ball99999]

Cup + Cock is the easiest method of increasing revs, pro's tend to "unload" there wrist to increase rev's further (not recommended, very advanced)

I can't seem to hold my hand sideways to cock it.. when I cup it I get stuck in the ball so I'm not used to it yet. Trying with no ball is different than doing it with a 15 lb ball.

[billf]

It's not incorrect it's just that it's different for different people. I wonder if people starting the ball earlier are pushing the armswing back with their arm?
Anyway when I start higher it goes faster, start lower it goes slower.

It is incorrect. If done correctly. But as usual there are three certified coaches on this site that have stated the same thing yet it's the novice bowlers that keep saying we are wrong. Evidently instead of wasting our time and money learning the SCIENCE behind the bowling and bowler we should have just asked people without a clue.

[Ball99999]

It is incorrect. If done correctly. But as usual there are three certified coaches on this site that have stated the same thing yet it's the novice bowlers that keep saying we are wrong. Evidently instead of wasting our time and money learning the SCIENCE behind the bowling and bowler we should have just asked people without a clue.

Maybe you're just thinking it's incorrect if people are hinging it. I don't know. But I know it's not incorrect for me. Not everyone wants to hinge it, certainly a lot of pros don't.

[billf]

So if your feet move faster but your ball goes slower, contact Guinness because you are the exception to the laws of physics. No chance you are doing anything wrong. The science and coaches must be the ones that are wrong.

[Ball99999]

So if your feet move faster but your ball goes slower, contact Guinness because you are the exception to the laws of physics. No chance you are doing anything wrong. The science and coaches must be the ones that are wrong.

The article is referring to the hinge method. I use a push away, so clearly it can be different.

[Ball99999]

How can people, coaches, have taught higher for faster, lower for slower, for so many years, if it didn't work? Wouldn't they realize that they were obtaining the opposite effect? That's what I'm not getting.

[75lockwood]

This is an incorrect, old school teaching. Follow the link that should explain why better than I can. Zothan should read this too so I can stop reading about the "push away" lol

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb09.pdf

Interesting read, the coach that i first learned to bowl with is quite old school.

[striker12]

How can people, coaches, have taught higher for faster, lower for slower, for so many years, if it didn't work? Wouldn't they realize that they were obtaining the opposite effect? That's what I'm not getting.

ball99999 thing about the rasiing the arms up and down yes speed will change if you stay at 1 approach speed but normaly when someone eather raise's there arms or lowers them there approach speed changes ik this because i have done it i have been working on 1 speed and i still cant stay at one speed that's why my spare shot is much faster then my strike shots by 4-5mph i throw avg 18-19mph and spare hots 23-24mph.

the thing bill was trying to tell you but u never under stood if you lower your arms your feet could go faster witch puts you in the same spot you are in the first place before you move your arms ik bill is not wrong i have been told these things and more by silver and bronze coach's and alot of pba bowlers like mike fagan, norm duke, pete weber, and more i have asked them and they all told me the same things but all in different ways.

[Ball99999]

ball99999 thing about the rasiing the arms up and down yes speed will change if you stay at 1 approach speed but normaly when someone eather raise's there arms or lowers them there approach speed changes ik this because i have done it i have been working on 1 speed and i still cant stay at one speed that's why my spare shot is much faster then my strike shots by 4-5mph i throw avg 18-19mph and spare hots 23-24mph.

the thing bill was trying to tell you but u never under stood if you lower your arms your feet could go faster witch puts you in the same spot you are in the first place before you move your arms ik bill is not wrong i have been told these things and more by silver and bronze coach's and alot of pba bowlers like mike fagan, norm duke, pete weber, and more i have asked them and they all told me the same things but all in different ways.

No I understand it. I just think that him saying "incorrect" is just wrong. There are different ways different people bowl.

[striker12]

No I understand it. I just think that him saying "incorrect" is just wrong. There are different ways different people bowl.

yes everyone bowls different but i agree with bill saying "incorrect" i can stay at the speed me feet go and change where my hands start and the ball will eather increase or decrease but if my speed of my feet change in speed the ball will not have increased or decreased because my aprroach speed is different like for ex:

if i had a fast approach i will have a fast throw with my hands being at my chest but if i left my hands where they where and slowed my feet down alot my speed of my ball would go down the lane slower then when my feet where fast.

[Ball99999]

speed was high, but does the rev on the ball match with your speed? if not, then speed will take over and will not hook

Yeah that's the problem pretty much. I sanded my ball so hopefully it has more grab.

Oops that was from the first page

[Brother_jd]

This is an incorrect, old school teaching. Follow the link that should explain why better than I can. Zothan should read this too so I can stop reading about the "push away" lol

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb09.pdf

Awesome article Bill. I am a pushaway guy and am gonna give this a try in practice before league on Friday.

[AngeloPD]

each to their own, but its proven that hinge improves accuracy and timing. i used to do the push away before i joined this forum. after reading a couple articles about the hinge method, i decided to try it during practice and now my avg went up and keeps going up. some people prefer the hinge or push away, like i said, each to their own.

[Ball99999]

each to their own, but its proven that hinge improves accuracy and timing. i used to do the push away before i joined this forum. after reading a couple articles about the hinge method, i decided to try it during practice and now my avg went up and keeps going up. some people prefer the hinge or push away, like i said, each to their own.

Exactly. I just hate the attitude that it's so awful to do the push away and no one does a push away..

[75lockwood]

Exactly. I just hate the attitude that it's so awful to do the push away and no one does a push away..

Like i said, i don't think anyone was trying to say the push away is completely wrong and stupid, simply that is has been found to be the more effective style.

[Ball99999]

Like i said, i don't think anyone was trying to say the push away is completely wrong and stupid, simply that is has been found to be the more effective style.

No, billf has specifically stated as much. That the push away is completely wrong and he doesn't want to see anyone talking about how they use it.
Then he says go to a coach when coaches have told me to use a push away. I don't know, it just seems like if he wants to give advice he has to accept that not everyone has to take it and not everyone is dumb to not understand why they aren't taking the advice. Saying something is incorrect and getting pissy when I say it isn't, and that it's different for different people, suggests he wants everyone to know that ONLY THE HINGE is the right way so to do something that is incorrect for the hinge or for a certain comfort level of feet speed is incorrect for everything.

I hate it when I or others will ask for advice (and not just about bowling it could be about a car) and then when they get advice but choose, not arbitrarily, to ignore it, that the offerers get mad. It's appreciated that advice is given but don't get mad if it's not taken. Maybe if I was say 6 feet tall it would be different. Or have longer arms.

[75lockwood]

No, billf has specifically stated as much. That the push away is completely wrong and he doesn't want to see anyone talking about how they use it.
Then he says go to a coach when coaches have told me to use a push away. I don't know, it just seems like if he wants to give advice he has to accept that not everyone has to take it and not everyone is dumb to not understand why they aren't taking the advice. Saying something is incorrect and getting pissy when I say it isn't, and that it's different for different people, suggests he wants everyone to know that ONLY THE HINGE is the right way so to do something that is incorrect for the hinge or for a certain comfort level of feet speed is incorrect for everything.

I hate it when I or others will ask for advice (and not just about bowling it could be about a car) and then when they get advice but choose, not arbitrarily, to ignore it, that the offerers get mad. It's appreciated that advice is given but don't get mad if it's not taken. Maybe if I was say 6 feet tall it would be different. Or have longer arms.

To be honest, i think this had more to do with that he was getting annoyed at this point, on more than one occasion you did say his advice was wrong (regardless of what you meant that's how it came off), take it from bill's prospective, he is here offering his time to help all of us improve, and on more than one occasion his advice has been responded to with less than appreciation, can you see how this might get annoying? if you disagree with something that's fine but then simply don't take the advice.


Keep calm and bowl on

[Ball99999]

To be honest, i think this had more to do with that he was getting annoyed at this point, on more than one occasion you did say his advice was wrong (regardless of what you meant that's how it came off), take it from bill's prospective, he is here offering his time to help all of us improve, and on more than one occasion his advice has been responded to with less than appreciation, can you see how this might get annoying? if you disagree with something that's fine but then simply don't take the advice.


Keep calm and bowl on

Like I said, if he wants to offer advice, it's not very polite to say well if you don't take my advice I'm taking my advice and going home.
He can get annoyed if that's how he handles criticism. I just don't get why he hasn't stopped giving me advice and just give it to others. I'm still happy to take advice from others.

[75lockwood]

Like I said, if he wants to offer advice, it's not very polite to say well if you don't take my advice I'm taking my advice and going home.
He can get annoyed if that's how he handles criticism.

Please knock it off, if the roles were reversed can you honestly say you would do differently? Bill Takes Criticism fine, but given that he paid to learn the correct ways, when his advice is met with flat disagreement it can be irritating.

Let us move on to a new topic, shall we?

[Ball99999]

Please knock it off, if the roles were reversed can you honestly say you would do differently? Bill Takes Criticism fine, but given that he paid to learn the correct ways, when his advice is met with flat disagreement it can be irritating.

Let us move on to a new topic, shall we?

YES I would do it differently.

If someone tells me "well that's not how it is for me, or what I prefer" I wouldn't say NO IT'S INCORRECT and since you won't take my advice I'm leaving.

And that's just it, oh, so he paid to learn the "correct ways" (which is an odd thing to say), only his advice should be taken. It's insulting. The way he gets annoyed is by insinuating that I'm a 14 year old who can't even tie his own bowling shoes so I'd have no idea about bowling technique.

[Ball99999]

And just to recap, what I said:


It's not incorrect it's just that it's different for different people. I wonder if people starting the ball earlier are pushing the armswing back with their arm?
Anyway when I start higher it goes faster, start lower it goes slower.



What he said

"It is incorrect. If done correctly. But as usual there are three certified coaches on this site that have stated the same thing yet it's the novice bowlers that keep saying we are wrong. Evidently instead of wasting our time and money learning the SCIENCE behind the bowling and bowler we should have just asked people without a clue. "

NOT mature.

[75lockwood]

And just to recap, what I said:





What he said

"It is incorrect. If done correctly. But as usual there are three certified coaches on this site that have stated the same thing yet it's the novice bowlers that keep saying we are wrong. Evidently instead of wasting our time and money learning the SCIENCE behind the bowling and bowler we should have just asked people without a clue. "

NOT mature.


Look, i agree that Bill could have handled that a bit better, but we're all human, from the sound's of things, bill has been trying to help you for longer than i have been on the site, and last night he finally got annoyed.

Now, what are you doing? publicly insulting someone calling them immature after they spent so much time trying to help you. how is this mature?

It's over, let us be done with it.

[Ball99999]

Look, i agree that Bill could have handled that a bit better, but we're all human, from the sound's of things, bill has been trying to help you for longer than i have been on the site, and last night he finally got annoyed.

Now, what are you doing? publicly insulting someone calling them immature after they spent so much time trying to help you. how is this mature?

It's over, let us be done with it.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Because this is the way things work, people will take his side when I was clearly right, you're even saying I'm being immature for pointing out he's being immature. Ok. Then people will all stop giving me advice, or discussing things, because "he's the guy that doesn't take anyone's advice and thinks he knows everything." It doesn't makes sense.
Done.

[75lockwood]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Because this is the way things work, people will take his side when I was clearly right, you're even saying I'm being immature for pointing out he's being immature. Ok. Then people will all stop giving me advice, or discussing things, because "he's the guy that doesn't take anyone's advice and thinks he knows everything." It doesn't makes sense.
Done.


Saying you were "clearly right" is just plain arrogant, like i said, there is no right/wrong way. People are not taking bills side, its simply that bill has come to be a well known and respected person here, and they don't want him to leave, not over something as ridiculous as this whole argument.

[Ball99999]

Saying you were "clearly right" is just plain arrogant, like i said, there is no right/wrong way. People are not taking bills side, its simply that bill has come to be a well known and respected person here, and they don't want him to leave, not over something as ridiculous as this whole argument.

It's not arrogant, what he said was. He said it was incorrect, I said it wasn't since it's different for everyone. That is a fact. I mean look at the scenario. Decades go by, if higher ball position didn't cause higher speed for certain people, it would have been figured out a long time ago, for those specific methods. Then people develop the hinge method and as a result, old speed methods don't work the same way (again not always true even for hinge).

Obviously it's his issue if he leaves and not mine. It's not like I caused it, he just can't stand the idea that not everyone agrees with how he wants everyone to bowl because he has gotten training. It's ridiculous.

[75lockwood]

It's not arrogant, what he said was. He said it was incorrect, I said it wasn't since it's different for everyone. That is a fact.

Obviously it's his issue if he leaves and not mine. It's not like I caused it, he just can't stand the idea that not everyone agrees with how he wants everyone to bowl because he has gotten training. It's ridiculous.

Based on statistics, the method Bill gave is correct, his issue is not with you disagreeing with you but how you made your statements, just like your issue with his, you both got a bit rude, the main difference is bill chose to walk away and cool off where you continued to be insulting, now i recommend you go cool off and come back and we can have level headed discussions on bowling.

Thank you.

[AngeloPD]

Ball, have you tried doing the hinge multiple times? maybe you tried once and gave up and thats why you think it is not for you. it takes a while to get used to.

[Ball99999]

Based on statistics, the method Bill gave is correct, his issue is not with you disagreeing with you but how you made your statements, just like your issue with his, you both got a bit rude, the main difference is bill chose to walk away and cool off where you continued to be insulting, now i recommend you go cool off and come back and we can have level headed discussions on bowling.

Thank you.

If he has an issue with how I made the statement then he has very thin skin. Because all I said was it's NOT incorrect, because it's different for everyone.

See this is what I mean. Because he is the "wise and respected one", as if it was some kind of tribe, I'm the one labeled as insulting. No, sorry, I don't care. I don't like people insinuating that I'm a moronic novice who doesn't know anything about bowling because he paid and got his certification blablabla.

Apparently I can't have level headed discussions on bowling because if I ask so many questions I'm not taking advice, and if I disagree with something, rightly so, I'm calling him wrong. OH WAIT, no that's not me that can't have the level headed discussions, it's the one who has a superiority complex.

[Ball99999]

Ball, have you tried doing the hinge multiple times? maybe you tried once and gave up and thats why you think it is not for you. it takes a while to get used to.

Yes, but I prefer the push away. I've made a conscious decision that I don't want to use it. Plus I feel like a Trex with tiny arms trying to bowl. It's like telling Belmonte he has to use the hinge, it wouldn't make sense.

[Tampabaybob]

Guys, having been a certified coach for several years, let me chime in here for a comment. When I first went to coaching school, we were taught to teach the push-away. At that time, 30 years ago that was the only "accepted" way to teach a bowler how to start their approach. Fast forward 25+ years, and with the advent of computer simulations and video cameras, the mindset has changed to state that the hinge system will help "most" bowlers improve their accuracy. (see the article Bill posted). As a coach I have had to change my thinking and techniques several times over the years. I always do this reluctantly, and with much research. I'm a show me, prove it to me type of guy. I will even try these myself BEFORE I will tell someone else to try it.

With that said, I'm going to agree with Ball9999, in so much as EVERY bowler is not cut from the same thread. What will easily work for some people will NOT work for others. If he states that he's more comfortable pushing the ball away AND can maintain a good accuracy, then I would never attempt to change his style. I might recommend he try the hinge, but as I said if his normal routine is to push the ball away, I would work with him doing that and help him to achieve as good an accuracy rate as possible.

Bill has good intentions, but sometimes......well my opinion. He means well and has offered many people on this site valuable help. Let's not beat him up over one comment.

Bob

[Ball99999]

Exactly, thank you. And thank everyone who gives advice and thank billf I appreciate anyone's advice even if it won't work for me, I'll at least try it.

[Tampabaybob]

As I said in previous threads, I've had many coaches myself over the years and with their guidance, achieved my goal, which was to hold a PBA card. Many times after trying their advice I would find it didn't work for me and I'd go back to my own style. Sometimes you will find what's "right" for you all by yourself. There's nothing wrong with that.

Bob

[UBowling]

This is why USBC changed their whole coaching curriculum a few years back. They recognized that there is no "perfect" style for someone to use, no "template" that you have to force every bowler into to improve their game.

In both the Bronze and Silver seminars they taught coaches to identify an item of concern and then watch and see if it is a liability or an asset. For some bowlers, a push away may be a liability, for some it is an asset. You have to be familiar with the bowler's game to know for sure. And if they try it the other way and it becomes a liability, you can go back and keep it the same or try something else.

I have had good coaches tell me I need to relax my arm on the downswing. This didn't really help me as I thought I was relaxing as much as possible. I go to another coach and he teaches me three or four things that help me improve my angles and guess what happens as a result? My swing becomes looser and more relaxed. Sometimes when a coach sees an item of concern, they think they are helping the bowler fix it by making a certain change, but it can be detrimental if that bowler doesn't understand, or can't make those changes. A coach has to connect to the bowler and teach them in a way that makes sense to them. One bowler may make a change and it helps them, the next bowler makes the same change and it hurts them.

Every bowler is different and different things will work. Look at the two handed movement as a great example.

[billf]

For those who read the posts in order the comment I said was incorrect wasn't the push away (which I don't prefer) but rather the ball higher for faster speed, lower for slower speed.
If the ball is lower it will travel less distance. If the arm swing is at the same speed then to have the correct timing at the end the feet have to move faster. Why have so many coaches and the USBC decided to teach this method, backed by science, over the previous method that was used since the beginning of bowling? Most human beings, when they increase the arm speed (has to happen with the arm higher, longer swing in same time) lose accuracy. With speeding up the legs and keeping the arm speed the same as before, it is exponentially easier to hit the desired target.
Just because you like a style doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best style to suit you and improve your game. I wish I could bowl like Norm Duke or Walter Ray Williams Jr. (don't we all?) but they are part of the 1% of the bowling population that has that kind of ability.
As for the comment (don't remember who posted it) that most pros don't use the hinge method, I can't think of one under 40 years old that doesn't use it. Plus remember, most pros have been bowling for at least 20 years (most started around 4) so even if they wanted to use it, they would have to retrain themselves. Why do you guys think there are so many younger winners the past few years? It use to be that you hit your bowling prime in your mid-thirties, now it's mid-twenties. Not only do coaches have to be flexible with styles so doesn't the bowler if they want to truly improve their game. If I could show you one thing that would raise your average 50 pins but you couldn't bowl like Norm Duke, wouldn't you do it? I betcha Norm can do it already but doesn't have to.
Did I get upset that you said once again that I was wrong? Sure did. You said the same thing months ago when you first posted wanting more speed and I said you needed to free up your swing. You said I was wrong, your swing is a free arm swing. Then months later, whoa, you felt a freer swing. Is it totally free? No. How can I say that? Because even the tops pros are not completely free but damn close. When you posted awhile ago about getting more revs I made a suggestion about hand positions. You said I was wrong, it doesn't work. Bob made the same suggestion two pages later and you replied how much better your ball moved. So yes, your inconsistency is annoying to be blunt. Why do I keep trying to help you? Because one day something will click, the light bulb will go off and all these posts will finally be able to help you. Just because you sometimes get on my nerves doesn't mean I don't want to see you bowl better.
I would bet that you are the type of person that learns easier from seeing something done. That's not a problem as a lot of people are that way it just makes it harder to do with words. If I lived closer I would take a road trip and show you everything I've been trying to get into your head including how to play the inside part of the ball.

[AngeloPD]

Very well said bill. about getting inside the ball, is it the position how you throw a back up ball? so for a better release, you need to cock/cup and get inside the ball right?

[billf]

I've tried explaining it before and I guess it didn't translate well. I showed Derrick last week and we taped it. I will see when he plans on posting it. I have video (here and on my laptop) of his previous release and captured some good video of his new release. It was the first time he really got any side roll and he didn't change anything but his set up position.
Derrick and I have been friends for years but we are both stubborn so I thought showing him would be tough. Turned out he was the easiest person I've coached on anything so far. He listened intently and within two throws had it down. We spent the next hour taping and letting him get comfortable with it. I will see him in the morning. His son, my Godson bowls in the youth league (at age 6!) so if he isn't ready to post it I will try to make a recording of how to do it before my league tomorrow.

[AngeloPD]

I've tried explaining it before and I guess it didn't translate well. I showed Derrick last week and we taped it. I will see when he plans on posting it. I have video (here and on my laptop) of his previous release and captured some good video of his new release. It was the first time he really got any side roll and he didn't change anything but his set up position.
Derrick and I have been friends for years but we are both stubborn so I thought showing him would be tough. Turned out he was the easiest person I've coached on anything so far. He listened intently and within two throws had it down. We spent the next hour taping and letting him get comfortable with it. I will see him in the morning. His son, my Godson bowls in the youth league (at age 6!) so if he isn't ready to post it I will try to make a recording of how to do it before my league tomorrow.

yes, please post a video.

is it like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&list=UU0oUPkQqn2z6G_Th1aE5GjQ&v=fr9lDk848-g&feature=endscreen

[billf]

Exactly like that video. I didn't think Joe had a video I hadn't seen before.

[Brother_jd]

Dumb question. Who is Joe Slowinski? 2nd I am going to try that dril, it looks like it can be effective.

[75lockwood]

Dumb question. Who is Joe Slowinski? 2nd I am going to try that dril, it looks like it can be effective.

he is a world renounced usbc gold certified coach, you can find a link to his site in the FAQ (yes i'm pushing people to check out the FAQ lol)

[billf]

Dumb question. Who is Joe Slowinski? 2nd I am going to try that dril, it looks like it can be effective.

Joe Slowinski, Gold Certified USBC coach. www.bowlingknowledge.info is his website and includes a bio that way I can't accidentally recall any of his accolades incorrectly.