I've been bowling for 35 years - can I get a little help?

[Batmite]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Thanks for reading.

I've had carpal tunnel off and on for almost 8 years. I used to average around 220+ on a standard house shot. The older I got the less I seemed to hook the ball. This was OK because the straight I threw it the more accurate I became and I got better. A couple years back I got into a rut and really don't know what the problem is. I've video taped myself bowling and nothing seems out the ordinary but everything just feels off. I was so frustrated at the end of the season last year that I took the entire summer off (which I haven't done since I was a kid). When I came back after the summer lay off it was worse than ever. My ball speed dropped to 11.5 from 14-15. Sometimes I hang onto the ball too long and it flys out to the 1-3 board. Other times I drop it and it goes brooklyn. I've had my friends who bowl me with tell me I'm topping the ball, others tell me my arm is wrapping around my body. I even bought a new ball from a new driller with an extended span (the previous driller was a half short) but that didn't help either.

I've tried more tape, less tape, not squeezing the ball (I used to just grip it and rip it even when thowing down and in), squeezing the ball more, counting my steps, walking slower, walking faster, ugh.

Frustrated and ready to throw the towel in.

Any advice?

Thanks.

[Mike White]

Any chance of posting some video?

[Tampabaybob]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Thanks for reading.

I've had carpal tunnel off and on for almost 8 years. I used to average around 220+ on a standard house shot. The older I got the less I seemed to hook the ball. This was OK because the straight I threw it the more accurate I became and I got better. A couple years back I got into a rut and really don't know what the problem is. I've video taped myself bowling and nothing seems out the ordinary but everything just feels off. I was so frustrated at the end of the season last year that I took the entire summer off (which I haven't done since I was a kid). When I came back after the summer lay off it was worse than ever. My ball speed dropped to 11.5 from 14-15. Sometimes I hang onto the ball too long and it flys out to the 1-3 board. Other times I drop it and it goes brooklyn. I've had my friends who bowl me with tell me I'm topping the ball, others tell me my arm is wrapping around my body. I even bought a new ball from a new driller with an extended span (the previous driller was a half short) but that didn't help either.

I've tried more tape, less tape, not squeezing the ball (I used to just grip it and rip it even when thowing down and in), squeezing the ball more, counting my steps, walking slower, walking faster, ugh.

Frustrated and ready to throw the towel in.

Any advice?

Thanks.

Very hard to analyze you're own bowling style and figure out what you're doing wrong. If you carried a 220+ average before then I've got to believe that's it's probably something very small that you've unknowingly changed. A video upload with shots from behind and side shots will help us take a look to help you figure out what's going on. Also if there are and "certified coaches" in your area it would be money well spent.

As far as the carpal tunnel goes a wrist guard or steel fingers could help a great deal. I had an injury a whilee back, bout the steel fingers and within 2 -3 week s the pain was gone. Best 20 bucks I ever spent.

Look forward to seeing a video posted soon and will give you all the help I can.

Bob

[75lockwood]

Like everyone else said, a video of you bowling would definitely help, but as a side note, what ball are you using and how long have you had it? if the ball hasn't been re drilled to fit your hand in x number of years the fit may be poor witch could explain some of the problems your having. also, what kind of grip are you using? conventional/fingertip

does the thumb go into the ball fully without being to tight or loose?

if the thumb is fine you can check your span (finger tip grip only) , fully insert your thumb and lay your fingers flat across the ball. the edge of the whole's should be half way between first and second knuckle without stretching for a proper span.

the below document explains it better than i can lol
http://www.athletics2000.com/andrew/Documents/USBC%20Bowling%20Ball%20Parts%20and%20Dynamics.pdf

Edit: WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!

[J Anderson]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Thanks for reading.

I've had carpal tunnel off and on for almost 8 years. I used to average around 220+ on a standard house shot. The older I got the less I seemed to hook the ball. This was OK because the straight I threw it the more accurate I became and I got better. A couple years back I got into a rut and really don't know what the problem is. I've video taped myself bowling and nothing seems out the ordinary but everything just feels off. I was so frustrated at the end of the season last year that I took the entire summer off (which I haven't done since I was a kid). When I came back after the summer lay off it was worse than ever. My ball speed dropped to 11.5 from 14-15. Sometimes I hang onto the ball too long and it flys out to the 1-3 board. Other times I drop it and it goes brooklyn. I've had my friends who bowl me with tell me I'm topping the ball, others tell me my arm is wrapping around my body. I even bought a new ball from a new driller with an extended span (the previous driller was a half short) but that didn't help either.

I've tried more tape, less tape, not squeezing the ball (I used to just grip it and rip it even when thowing down and in), squeezing the ball more, counting my steps, walking slower, walking faster, ugh.

Frustrated and ready to throw the towel in.

Any advice?

Thanks.

1. If you could post some video one of us may be able to spot what's going wrong.

2. Are you doing anything for your carpal tunnel syndrome? I just happened to look over at my book shelves and spotted End Your Carpal Tunnel Pain Without Surgery by Kate Montgomery. I think my wife read it when she thought she was showing early signs of the problem.

3. A well fitted bowling ball doesn't require a lot of strength to hold on to but it does take some. Since carpal tunnel has robbed you of some of your grip strength, you really need the span, pitches and hole sizes to be perfect.

4. Since it seems that your problems deal with the release, check the FAQ thread for release drills, preferably ones that you could do at home.

[75lockwood]

check the faq thread for release drills, preferably ones that you could do at home.

wooot the faq is spreading! Lol

[Batmite]

I can post some video clips later today. I don't have any of me bowling from the side just from the back. I've never had a great armswing. It tends to move a bit but I was always able to straighten everything out at the bottom of release.

When I got refitted for my new ball a couple months ago (from the different driller) that's when I was told that my span was a bit short. He extended it and made the fingers tighter because I wasn't throwing a true finger tip at that point. It was actually going down a little bit past the first knuckle because that's what felt good. Keep in mind my problems started before I actually bought a new ball (which I barely throw now) but this is what I was told.

My armswing definitely isn't free, I'm grabbing everything like it was black Friday and if I get *any* speed on the ball (13mph tops) who knows where it will end up.

Thanks for all the tips.

[AZBowla]

A free armswing is key. By tightening up, your limiting how loosely and freely you can swing your arm.

I squeeze the ball too - I know I probably shouldn't, but that's what I'm used to, but I don't squeeze it until the top of my backswing and then only for a brief moment - once the ball is moving back down I loosen up again so that my thumb will come out of this new ball I've got. I might have the thumb hole drilled out just a little bigger so that I can have more confidence that it will actually come off my thumb when I want it to. It usually does now but it still sticks sometimes and that messes up my mental game from that point forward because every shot after that I'm worried that it'll stick to me again.

I also find I get better ball speed when I play down and in versus throwing a big arcing hook. The hook looks cool and all, but I get better carry when I'm not burning up all the ball's energy on making it look "cool". I still like to throw the hook ball now and then just for fun. It's really fun to do it when some kid in the next lane over wants to impress his friends with a hook so they throw it with no thumb, and then I go up after them and throw an even bigger one that goes coast to coast and then right into the pocket with my thumb in and watch the jaws drop as I calmly walk back to my seat. Hee hee...

[UBowling]

There are a lot of possibilities, but the most important thing to getting help is to remember to keep an open mind and to try something before you discount it, and not to try too many things at one time. Try one change and get it down, and then try the next one. Once video is uploaded I am sure you will get many ideas to try out.

[Zothen]

I had the same problem and after listening to those who helped me,I went to the grandfather clock method(my name for it). Think of your arm as a pendulam on a grandfather clock. All it does is swing back & forth,so apply the same method when you bowl. Allow the ball to carry your arm back as high as it wants to go,and when it comes forward,extend your arm straight out and let the ball go. Do not help it,just let it be natural. Your arm should be pointing towards the 1 & 3 pin right hander or 1 & 2 pin lefty.

Zothen

[billf]

I'm waiting for the video before I give any advice :cool:
There are some real knowledgeable people here and others with good intentions. Together I'm sure we will all figure it out.

[Batmite]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help.

The video was taken about a month ago. It's just 12 random minutes of me throwing the ball like a 3 year old. I was trying something different with my crossover step but it didn't work out too well.

http://youtu.be/r3bVU-xITFs

Thanks for looking.

[scottymoney]

The biggest thing I see is the arm swing. It seems very "loopy to me". You let the arm move away from your body then correct and then go back away when you release. I am no coach or anything nor do I know much about muscle structure, but it looks to me like it would be causing more pain with the carpal tunnel than if you worked more on a straighter arm. I am not sure where you are actually aiming but that much arm in and out has to be effecting your accuracy. As far as the gripping part, I think if you worked on a straighter arm swing with less motion that you would probably not grip the ball as much as you might be gripping as a result of thinking you are going to lose the ball. I am guessing someone else will comment also and I would like to see what they think. But I would say straighter armswing .

[J Anderson]

I Agree with Scott. I don't remember seeing a swing with that big a loop. There have been some pros with a slight loop in their swings, but the loop is much less and usually out to in, not in to out like yours.

It may help to start with holding the ball a little further to the right in your stance. Your current position may be what is sending the ball behind your back.

You will need to practice just swinging the ball to get the feel of a correct swing. You can even do this holding the ball in one of those bowling ball 'see-saws' so it doesn't mess up your release point.

[Batmite]

Well I've never had a straight back swing. I have tried to just swing it back and forth but for some darn reason I Can't keep my wrist straight when I do it. I'm usually looking over the 2nd arrow when I throw. I'll try to get the pendulum motion going and see if that helps. I might go practice later this afternoon but I tore my thumb up pretty bad Wednesday night (bad drilling?). I have a big blister on the outside of my left thumb.

Thanks for the tips guys.

[Batmite]

BTW, what is a bowling "see-saw"?

[75lockwood]

BTW, what is a bowling "see-saw"?

A see-saw is a bag used to clean the ball:http://www.bowlingball.com/products/bowling-accessories/Brunswick/5183/Microfiber-See-Saw.html

[75lockwood]

Just watched the video, i have to agree with the others, you have a lot of side to side movement on your swing, i could see this making it a lot harder to control and aim.

[Batmite]

Would the goofy back swing make me tend to throw it out to the 1st board and in the next shot yank it 10 boards?

[scottymoney]

possibly as by not keeping your arm straight and always having to adjust to get back to the correct position you will definitely pull shots. You will stay much more consistent with a striaght swing.

[75lockwood]

Would the goofy back swing make me tend to throw it out to the 1st board and in the next shot yank it 10 boards?

Very possible, given that your swing has side to side movement, if you don't release the ball at the perfect point it will go either left (early) or right (late).

when it comes to your swing or anything else in bowling for that matter, you want it to be repeatable 100,000 times without variation, which would be easier to replicate precisely, a nice smooth straight swing or one that has as much movement as yours does?

[Batmite]

Thanks for the tips guys. I just swung my ball here in the basement about 30 times. I'm trying to swing it from the shoulder and it did feel like my ball was starting to slip off my thumb. Is there any way to isolate just the shoulder so I know I'm not muscling the ball?

[Batmite]

It also seemed the higher my backswing went the more it started to move away from my body. (I was looking into a mirror as I did it). I'm also not walking which I'm sure will affect it.

[AZBowla]

If you've been swinging it like that for 35 years, it's going to be hard to break that habit.

This video has been linked on here a million times but it's great study material for just about any aspect of your physical game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nnDbV0znE

I've probably watched it 100 times, each time looking at something else I'm currently working on, such as footwork, timing, release, armswing, stance, you name it. For you, there's a part in here that talks about the swing plane - you want to keep it as straight and in line with your head as you can, just like these pro's do it.

It's going to take a ton of practice and drills to unlearn your old ways but keep at it and you should see results next time you go bowling. Even though I know I have a long way to go, I've already seen big improvements in my own game just from studying and practicing with videos like this one.

[J Anderson]

Thanks for the tips guys. I just swung my ball here in the basement about 30 times. I'm trying to swing it from the shoulder and it did feel like my ball was starting to slip off my thumb. Is there any way to isolate just the shoulder so I know I'm not muscling the ball?

That's why I suggested using the see-saw, that way you don't have to worry about holding on to the ball.

[billf]

Scott hit the nail on the head. I did see some small things to tweak later but that reverse loop has to go. It's so big I don't see how you can realistically duplicate your release every time plus with it going in reverse it should be taking reaction away from your ball but instead you are working ten times harder to catch your hand back up at the bottom of the swing. Ideally, the ring finger should lead the way on the down swing, elbow close to the body while NEVER pointing outward. Your finish position looks awesome.

[Batmite]

Thanks for the compliment. It's funny, when I was younger I used to rip the cover off the ball. As I got older my hook went away but my average went up. I started throwing the ball right over 2nd arrow and was averaging around 230. My average is down to about 175 now with no ball reaction. I've also lost all speed on the ball too. I'm going to work on the hinge and see if I can get rid of that loop. I've always had a loop but it was never this bad.

[Tampabaybob]

Batmite....... I'm in agreement with most of the guys here about your looped delivery, but its' almost like a figure eight with your arm. Another point would be your head movement during your steps. It changes, moves up and down too much and that will cause inaccuracies in your targeting.

Now, how to fix these things. Your footwork looks good, try tucking your elbow in to your side and "Feel IT" brush your side back and forth through your swing plane. Try keeping the front of your elbow facing the pins. This makes it much easier to keep it tucked in and if you can execute this down and back I believe it will help get rid of that loop.

As far as head movement, that may be caused in some part because of muscling the ball. Relax, let the ball drop on that second step (as you now do) and let gravity take over. NO MUSCLE until you reach the release point and then just a little bit of effort with muscles to release it. Let your head/torso move downward in increments with your steps so you can stay focused on your target. Moving your head (eyes) makes it much more difficult to keep your accuracy intact.

If I walked in and saw you bowling at a local center, I would tag you as a high average bowler just from a quick glance. When you explain what's going on, I can see the little things that may be occurring to keep you off of that average you once had. You'll get it back, just need to tweak a few things. Good luck, and keep us updated.

Bob

[scottymoney]

Glad I picked out something correct, thanks for backing me up Bill. Now if I could just figure out what I am doing wrong. Might be time to video tape myself for you guys to tear apart.

[billf]

Glad I picked out something correct, thanks for backing me up Bill. Now if I could just figure out what I am doing wrong. Might be time to video tape myself for you guys to tear apart.

I hate taping myself. I see so many issues it's very traumatic and disheartening. Plus I can't make the corrections until I see them and then get back to the alley. Part of why I see my own coach, on the spot corrections. Plus seeing how fat I've gotten over the years really sucks.

[scottymoney]

I have to say after reading up and seeing how the "pros" do it, I can now tell when I do something bad. I threw one in the gutter on Monday and I knew exactly what I did. I guess just the fact of being more aware of what I am doing helps. And I agree with the taping thing too. I would have to go by myself and do it, cause my wife would think I am crazy.

[Tampabaybob]

Glad I picked out something correct, thanks for backing me up Bill. Now if I could just figure out what I am doing wrong. Might be time to video tape myself for you guys to tear apart.

Scotty.......we promise we won't tear it (YOU) apart !! LOL And if you want to bring your wife along to help video tape you bowling, that's ok, just mute the audio part of the tape so we don't hear her laughing !!!!! LOL AGAIN !

Bob

[scottymoney]

Bob throwing the zingers! Her and I went today and I was happy to try some new tips out that I wanted to. She bowled well as it was her first time in well over a year to throw a ball. It was a bit tough with our 18 month old son running around trying to keep him from running onto the lanes. So I wasn't able to focus well. I am going to put my thoughts on here and see if anyone has other things for me to try and maybe my tips will help someone else.

1. move closer to the foul line. A no brainer but I finally decided to fix that. an extra foot closer makes a difference.

2. Holding the majority of the ball weight in the offhand up until the backswing. I could not get used to holding all the weight as it seemed to mess up my motion with the weight transfer. I think I got it down to hold about 75% of the weight. It did help and it also got me in better position for the third thing I did.

3. The balance arm thumb down and facing out toward the pins. I have no clue how this works but wow what a difference. It kept me so much more balanced and I was able to be much more consistent.

All together I felt much more consistent when I used all these tips. Now just to translate it to league night Tomorrow!

[billf]

Good luck translating it after one day. 1) Lots of people stop 1'-3' before the foul line. Why give your opponent this extra advantage? The heads burn up quick and this only adds to the problem.
2) Ball weight transfer. It's a personal thing but does help, especially for stamina reasons. The transfer also helps get the hinge moving right into the swing, smooth and free.
3) I love this part. We all know balance is important and how important a good swing is. By properly using our balance arm (and leg) it allows the core to stay stable. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It allows us to provide more torque through momentum without muscle and helps align the torso properly. This is actually the key to my game. My arm gets lazy, my reaction and carry go down.

If you can bowl while watching a baby then focusing during league shouldn't be an issue. I practice a lot with birthday parties to help with focus and patience.
Do you slide? Are you a cranker?

[scottymoney]

I will definitely be able to focus more in league. especially without the annoying loud music they had going at this different lane than I normally bowl at.
I do slide a bit, probably not as much as a normal slider would.
As far as style I am still not sure where I land.
Was able to figure out my ball speed today, the machine said between 18-20mph
I do not throw very many revs, at least I don't think I do.
I normally stand around 15 with my left foot and throw 10.
So I guess you tell me, what am I characterized as?

[scottymoney]

After going and reading about them I would say I am a stroker with a high backswing, but it is less of a backswing as I moved toward the follow line and am not waiting to release the ball as long.

[billf]

Stroker. Nothing wrong with it. Crankers plant and aim in a general area. Strokers slide, some more than others, and target a specific board. The only issue with a high back swing is if any part of it is muscled. If not, if you truly are that flexible (some are) then that's fine. If not, then you need to learn how to take the muscle away, completely away, at the top and before the down swing starts. Very, very few people can do this. Your ball speed is nice. Revs are over rated so don't worry about them too much.

[scottymoney]

I think the high backswing came from my longer approach. Where I held onto the ball longer as I still had some more approach to cover. I believe when I moved up on the approach to start to get rid of the 1-2 feet i had extra I believe I used a bit less backswing. Now that I think about it, I am not sure. Will pay attention tomorrow and see what I do. I don't really have much muscle in my swing. I know I throw it fast enough so I don't try to put anything extra into it. And I am finding when I try to put revs on the ball I end up throwing bad shots, so I am done with revs.
As far as aiming I definitely aim 2nd arrow, and when I hit my mark it is usually an X on the screen. I just tend to pull my release left or right and miss my mark.

[billf]

Sounds like you're definitely headed in the right direction. The balance arm, used as you said earlier, should really help keep the release consistent. I know I get upset with myself when I miss by a board never mind when I miss by ten or more. That's usually when the arm gets lazy and I'm usually the last to notice it.

[Tampabaybob]

I think the high backswing came from my longer approach. Where I held onto the ball longer as I still had some more approach to cover. I believe when I moved up on the approach to start to get rid of the 1-2 feet i had extra I believe I used a bit less backswing. Now that I think about it, I am not sure. Will pay attention tomorrow and see what I do. I don't really have much muscle in my swing. I know I throw it fast enough so I don't try to put anything extra into it. And I am finding when I try to put revs on the ball I end up throwing bad shots, so I am done with revs.
As far as aiming I definitely aim 2nd arrow, and when I hit my mark it is usually an X on the screen. I just tend to pull my release left or right and miss my mark.

You'll miss your mark if you're lifting your eyes off of your target a split second before releasing the ball. When you get set on the approach, get your feet lined up and from the time you look at your spot, "do not blink your eyes" until AFTER you release the ball. Takes a little getting used to but you'll find that just by blinking during your approach you're much more likely to miss your target. VERY important to watch the ball roll over your target on every shot. You can't hit, what you don't see.

Bob

[kmf]

You can't hit, what you don't see.

Bob

That's not entirely true but it does help. The ITRC did a study with coach Slowinski over seeing it with bowlers blindfolded. I found it interesting but I'm too chicken to try it.

[Tampabaybob]

That's not entirely true but it does help. The ITRC did a study with coach Slowinski over seeing it with bowlers blindfolded. I found it interesting but I'm too chicken to try it.

Ok, so you and I will bowl for a $1,000.00 a game and you wear a blindfold. How's that for a challenge. Could it be possible you "MIGHT" hit your spot with a blindfold on, sure. But really now, would love to see the actual study. Maybe 1 out of 10 - 15 shots would be ok, otherwise keep your eyes on the target.

Bob

[scottymoney]

So last night was bad. I think I was trying to do too much at once. Kept missing my mark to the outside. The part that gets me is that this week I will be getting my new ball that will compensate for missing that far wide and I might need to actually play that line with the new ball. My current ball just can't recover when I miss like that. Part of me is kind of happy I don't have to throw that thing again. Now I just need to work on my spares, I find myself easing up and not following through. Anyone have drills for practicing hitting your mark?

[75lockwood]

Ok, so you and I will bowl for a $1,000.00 a game and you wear a blindfold. How's that for a challenge. Could it be possible you "MIGHT" hit your spot with a blindfold on, sure. But really now, would love to see the actual study. Maybe 1 out of 10 - 15 shots would be ok, otherwise keep your eyes on the target.

Bob
Hey! when my glasses broke and i had to bowl blind i was way above average :cool:

[Tampabaybob]

Hey! when my glasses broke and i had to bowl blind i was way above average :cool:

Then why are you now bowling with glasses?????? How's that guide dog working out for you on the approach ? Does he get in the way ? LOL !!

[Tampabaybob]

So last night was bad. I think I was trying to do too much at once. Kept missing my mark to the outside. The part that gets me is that this week I will be getting my new ball that will compensate for missing that far wide and I might need to actually play that line with the new ball. My current ball just can't recover when I miss like that. Part of me is kind of happy I don't have to throw that thing again. Now I just need to work on my spares, I find myself easing up and not following through. Anyone have drills for practicing hitting your mark?

Scott......I teach the kids every Saturday and most times I sound like a broken record telling them the same things over and over, and from one pair of lanes to the next. What I mentioned earlier, about hitting your target is true. If you're missing to the right you could be right eye dominant. That is when you look at a target your right eye sort of takes over as far as directing what's going on. If you're doing this consistently, try this. If you're shooting the second arrow, look two boards to the left of the arrow. Watch where the ball goes and see if you hit the second arrow. If you still miss to the right after a couple of shots, look 3 boards to the left and try that for a couple of shots. Also not sure if I mentioned it earlier, but try not to blink your eyes from the moment you step off with your first step, until you actually release the ball.

Let us know how you're coin.

Bob

[scottymoney]

Thanks Bob it makes sense, I will give it a try although we will see what happens with the new ball now. my current spot might be perfect seeing as I have alot more hook to deal with. Going form perfect scale number of 89 to 200 something. I bet I have to adjust.

[noeymc]

hes right about blinking if i blink i seem to lose my mark

[scottymoney]

So I take it I should make blinking part of my pre-shot routine.

get in position on the approach, get arm and grip set, blink, find target, start steps.

[Tampabaybob]

yes, if you're going to blink do it before you step off. Blinking only takes a micro second, but it's long enough for you to lose track of your target. Remember, you entire approach only takes 1 - 2 seconds from the time you move your first step. So a micro second within that time frame is a lot.

As far as your new ball goes, going from 89 to 200+ is a huge jump, so be prepared to move quite a bit. Bring both balls just in case you run into trouble and can't get lined up. I'll be throwing my new one this Thursday in league as well, but I'll have 2 other back-up balls, JUST IN CASE. Sometimes it may take several games to learn the characteristics of a particular ball, but don't give upon it. Also, when the lanes start to transition, don't be afraid to put it back in the bag and go to the lesser aggressive ball. Good Luck.....let us know how you do and what happened.

Bob

[scottymoney]

Thanks, my 2 balls I use now are practically the same so I am going to retire my 15lb track crash and just carry the 16 lb scout. The madness is 16lbs, so I know if I need to the scout will do what I need. from how I have been throwing the ball I don't think I will have to adjust much and the way I have been throwing it the extra hook is probably just what I need to get into the pocket. Most of the time my ball gets out too far and never has enough hook to get back to the pocket and surely not with the same hitting power if it does. So I am expecting the Maruader Madness to actually be pretty strong on how I have been throwing it. But of course WE WILL SEE!!!!