Can the roll phase be the culprit?

[Ball99999]

When I think of hook, I think of that back end reaction that snaps from right to left. But from everything I've read, the 'hook' phase is during the midlane where it kind of puts the breaks on rightwards ball motion and keeps it in line to a point where it WILL then jump. So when I think of hook I think of when it's at its point of jumping from right to left, but now I'm thinking this is the roll phase?

I video taped myself and the ball does JUMP from right to left but it does so very close to the pins... so it may be because of speed dominance it really is just going too long? In other words, if the lane was 10 feet longer, I WOULD see a huge right to left hook.
The worry I have is that if it starts its roll phase earlier, will that mean less carry?

So tomorrow I will try lower surface, as well as more up the back release and try to balance it.

[kmf]

The skid phase is from where it leaves your hand and goes to just before the breakpoint; the ball goes away from you will spinning in another direction. Then it hits the hook phase where it grabs the lane and goes in the same direction as the spin. The ball also can give the illusion of picking up speed here. I say illusion because it's usually just that the spin and direction of movement now match. The roll phase should occur just before the ball reaches the pins. At this point it may appear to straighten out some and roll through the pocket. If I'm undertanding what you're saying correctly then your ball is breaking very close to the pins and never has a chance to get into the roll phase. The roll should occur about a foot or so before the pocket. Speed dominance can cause this as will not getting the ball out far enough. Rolling too early (rolling out) can cause less carry but if in the right area will cause more carry than rolling too late or not at all. You're right, balance of the phases is the key.

[bowl1820]

Three Phases of Ball Motion
http://www.bowlingboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=695&d=1353247701
http://www.bowlingboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=696&d=1353247723

[bowl1820]

Video Examples: Phases of ball motion by USBC


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R4Vjmhr_sbA

[billf]

Three Phases of Ball Motion
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/6/66/Three_Phases_Slide_1.jpg

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/7/7f/Three_Phases_Slide_2.jpg

I'm getting the 403 forbidden message again when trying to view (open in new tab)

[Ball99999]

Hmm well it does get in a roll right before the pocket a couple feet.. I thought maybe it was supposed to start more like 5-10 feet to give that big back end. Always a puzzle with bowling.

[Ball99999]

Also the more I study this the more I realize im trying to turn my wrist THEN lift with fingers. Too much loft and skid lately. I think I'll start lifting with fingers starting from a 7/8 o'clock position and either that creates siderotation but not too much, or the fingers naturally rotate or no siderotation but im gonna just try it because maybe my tilt is too much

[Ball99999]

Err axis rotation too much. But I think tilt is too much too

[Zothen]

BOWL1820-Thanks for the diagrams and video! So if i'm to understand,the midlane read is actually the hook phase?

Zothen

[Ball99999]

Funny isn't it? Anyone else fooled into thinking the roll was the hook?
Oh well lesson learned. I know what to look for now. Going to change my release (more revs less skid hopefully) and hopefully get a motion more now I want.. Really curved. Then will try lower speed.

[AZBowla]

Don't forget to factor in the lane conditions too. If you're doing mostly open bowling like me then there's no telling when those lanes were oiled last. My Marauder soaks up what little oil is left like a sponge so after the first couple of games it's like a desert out there. If you have a lot of revs and find you have to go coast to coast just to hit the pocket then try a different line and put less revs on the ball or you'll just be burning off all the ball's energy, resulting in soft pocket hits. That's been my experience at least.

[Tampabaybob]

BOWL1820-Thanks for the diagrams and video! So if i'm to understand,the midlane read is actually the hook phase?

Zothen

Yes, you are correct.

Bob

[J Anderson]

Funny isn't it? Anyone else fooled into thinking the roll was the hook?


At one point, back in the dark ages, bowlers used to refer to it as skid, roll, and hook, as if the ball had to get into a full roll before hooking. The ball motion studies proved the hook was actually the transition from skid to roll.

[billf]

The length and area of each phase will be different for each bowler and each style. Funny? Hardly. It creates frustration.
Speaking of frustration, you're in for more. In post 10 you stated you were going to change your release to get more revs less skid. Revs increase the push past the oil, hence more skid. If you are only just confusing revs with axis rotation then yes, a higher rotation angle will decrease the skid phase. That's why high speed, high rev crankers use a 90* axis rotation, to get that harder bite further down lane. But a consistent, high scoring release can be had with low revs, 30-45* axis rotation and a more gradual hook. Remember, it's angle into the pocket that creates the highest strike potential, not how it gets there.

[bowl1820]

At one point, back in the dark ages, bowlers used to refer to it as skid, roll, and hook, as if the ball had to get into a full roll before hooking. The ball motion studies proved the hook was actually the transition from skid to roll.

Actually, there are two transitions.

The first transition is from skid to hook.

The second transition is hook to roll.

http://www.bowlingboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=697&d=1353288760
http://www.bowlingboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=698&d=1353288944

[Ball99999]

What's the part about spin time?

[bowl1820]

What's the part about spin time?

That's referring to putting the ball on a determinator and the checking the spin time on it.

[Mike White]

That's referring to putting the ball on a determinator and the checking the spin time on it.

Hook phase and spin time aren't quite the same thing.

According to Mo (some time ago) the hook phase ends when the migrating axis point reaches the line between the Pin and PSA.

The Spin time is how long it takes the ball spinning at an unknown (not commonly known) RPM on the DeTerminator to migrate from the "neutral position" to the PSA.

Not exactly apples to oranges, but at least different types of apples.