Low backswing??

[AZBowla]

I'll upload video of this tomorrow, but basically my backswing feels like it's going a lot higher than it actually is. I'd like to get it higher, at least parallel with the floor. Right now, it's only going about 1/2 way up to parallel with the floor. Anyone have this same problem? How did you overcome it?

Also, I got a new wrist brace today and it helped BIG TIME with my consistency. Now I'd just like to get my swing up high enough to put some speed on the ball. Right now I throw it about 12mph which is pretty slow. It works, I get a decent amount of strikes, but I'm concerned that on a lane with some actual oil on it I'll need to get the ball spinning and moving faster.

I'll add video to this thread tomorrow - it's getting to be close to bed time over here. :)

[billf]

Bend at the knees and waist more during the stance and approach. Ideally you want the backswing parallel to the floor & coming down when the slide foot hits flat on the floor

[ArtVandelay]

Push ups, my man! hahaha. That's what I did! I had a small back swing and I was using mostly arm strength to get the ball down the lane. Most of that was because I was big, fat and lazy and (as embarrassing as it is to say) getting the ball further back would have required more strength than I had at the time. You probably don't have that problem. Once I started working out on a regular basis, and had grown some triceps, it became easier to get the ball further back. I DID have to make the effort to remember to draw it back further than I was used to. My scores struggled for a little bit, because it was a foreign movement that I had never really done before. Once I was used to it, it helps dramatically.

You will notice more speed AND (more importantly) you will notice more ball control! Why? Because it feels like (to me, at least) gravity is doing most of the work in generating the ball speed. With my old release my biceps (which I didn't really have to begin with, but that's a different story!) had to generate the power. Now gravity takes over and does most of the work generating the speed, while my arm simply concentrates on getting the ball going in the right direction. Yes, my arm is STILL giving it some power, but not as much as it had to in the past.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and I hope that helps!

[AZBowla]

OK, here's the video - this is my typical strike shot right now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Cl5CTeuT8

It works, but looks awful. I know if I can get a more "professional" looking swing, I'll get better results. The question is how do I get there? Bill's advice is always sound so I will give those things a try. As for the pushups, well... I don't know how helpful that would be, but it couldn't hurt to get in better shape I suppose. :) Anyway, if anyone has any other pointers for me, that haven't already been mentioned, feel free!

[ArtVandelay]

hahahaha. Yeah, I was just saying that's what worked for me. But you have to remember, I was HORRIBLY out of shape, so adding the proper muscles just made it easier to bring the ball back further.

No matter what you choose to do, I believe it's like anything else: Repetition is key. It's all about the process of taking the unfamiliar and committing it to muscle memory until it's familiar.

Working out helped me dramatically in a lot of areas (golf too!), BUT it was only a small part of the change. The rest came from a substantial effort to change my ways.

[billf]

Lower the ball in your stance. You are pushing it in front of your face. This causes two things 1. the ball ends up blocking your sight to the target 2. the back swing shortens to keep the timing that you're use to.
Keep your elbow tight to your side like you are. Upper arm perpendicular to the floor and lower arm parallel to the floor. On a 4 step approach unbend your arm into the swing so it's straight as your left foot hits the floor in front of you. Combined with getting lower you will have a nice back swing and a lot better ball speed and revs.

[Mike White]

Bill, one quick thing I see related to the length of the backswing.

To achieve a higher backswing he has to either drop or open his shoulder.

Drop like Slowinski says, or open like Petraglia does.

Bending more (getting lower) only gives the illusion of a higher backswing.

[billf]

Lowering the ball in the stance usually results in a higher back swing. Being a Slowinski and Baker disciple, I teach to drop the shoulder. The spine tilt usually allows a natural shoulder drop that is easily reproduced.
Mike, you're very good at this. Have you considered coaching? There are many young bowlers who could benefit from your educated insights. Old ones too but they are usually more stubborn lol

[LonelyBowler]

Dip forward around the second step when the ball is near the ground, that should make it go back farther.
What do you need a high backswing for?

[billf]

Dip forward around the second step when the ball is near the ground, that should make it go back farther.
What do you need a high backswing for?

The head should never go beyond the knee when both are forward. The back swing should ideally get to at least parallel. Only two players in the top 100 in the history of the PBA/ABC had a back swing that didn't get to at least parallel. Did you watch the video? AZBowla's back swing is a lot lower than normal and extremely lower than ideal. Can he get away bowling a league with it? Sure. Be competitive at higher level tournaments? No sir. To be competitive at the higher levels all facets of the game have to be close to sound including proper timing and control. AZbowla has posted many times how he wants to improve. The only way to truly improve is to identify (which he has) a weakness and improve upon it.

[AZBowla]

What do you need a high backswing for?

Couple of reasons, one is I'd like to get more speed and rev's on the ball, secondly as Bill said, my current pushaway puts the ball in my face and I lose sight of my target. I'm looking for a backswing that's more in line with what is illustrated in the Game Changer book. I'm also hoping that having a higher, more relaxed backswing will take some of the strain off my arm. I've been subconsciously muscling the ball so that my swing can keep up with my feet - I can really feel it in my forearm the next morning.

[billf]

Awesome book. Having read it you know what I mean then about how you can't have the correct timing going into the slide. One thing you're doing and we all do to some degree, is using shoulder muscles to stop the back swing. The forearm is from gripping hard with the wrist cupped. That alone puts tension into the swing.

[AZBowla]

Awesome book. Having read it you know what I mean then about how you can't have the correct timing going into the slide. One thing you're doing and we all do to some degree, is using shoulder muscles to stop the back swing. The forearm is from gripping hard with the wrist cupped. That alone puts tension into the swing.

Yeah, that book is great, well worth the $10 for the e-version.

One thing I've really learned from it is how many things I'm not doing right - I've got about 30 years of bad bowling habits to unlearn. :) I figure the weird backswing should be the easiest bad habit to break first.

[billf]

Starting with the correct set up will help with that. Every sport has an athletic pose and bowling is no different. As with other sports there are variations but they all have the correct timing at specific intervals.

[GoodGorilla]

OK, here's the video - this is my typical strike shot right now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Cl5CTeuT8

It works, but looks awful. I know if I can get a more "professional" looking swing, I'll get better results. The question is how do I get there? Bill's advice is always sound so I will give those things a try. As for the pushups, well... I don't know how helpful that would be, but it couldn't hurt to get in better shape I suppose. :) Anyway, if anyone has any other pointers for me, that haven't already been mentioned, feel free!

Fist thing I have noticed which has already been mentioned is opening the shoulders. After you let go of the ball put your balance arm forward with the thumb down, when the ball passes your leg on the release move the balance arm square with your shoulders. One thing that helps me also, is I stand up strait and when the ball passes my legs on the downswing, I bend forward (I've seen other pros do this also).

[GoodGorilla]

Couple of reasons, one is I'd like to get more speed and rev's on the ball, secondly as Bill said, my current pushaway puts the ball in my face and I lose sight of my target. I'm looking for a backswing that's more in line with what is illustrated in the Game Changer book. I'm also hoping that having a higher, more relaxed backswing will take some of the strain off my arm. I've been subconsciously muscling the ball so that my swing can keep up with my feet - I can really feel it in my forearm the next morning.

You have to slow your feet down.

[scottymoney]

Since it has worked for me I am really promoting the shift bowl technique. And to make it plain and simple starting in the athletic stance has made it easier for me to finish that way. Instead of working on bending the knees through the approach start with them bent to begin and stay low. As Bill said the setup is very important. And this may help you. Also I think this may help you with your backswing as it seems you are starting to bend your knees as you are in your backswing.

By already having your knees bent maybe it will help you with not having to think about doing so much at once to get yourself to the foul line they way you want to be.

[AZBowla]

Since it has worked for me I am really promoting the shift bowl technique. And to make it plain and simple starting in the athletic stance has made it easier for me to finish that way. Instead of working on bending the knees through the approach start with them bent to begin and stay low. As Bill said the setup is very important. And this may help you. Also I think this may help you with your backswing as it seems you are starting to bend your knees as you are in your backswing.

By already having your knees bent maybe it will help you with not having to think about doing so much at once to get yourself to the foul line they way you want to be.

I was intrigued by this but haven't taken an indepth look at it just yet. I think my footwork is fine - I need to start closer to the foul line, but other than that what I'm doing seems to be working. That swing though is a big problem, I'm having a tough time staying consistent and after realizing what Bill was saying was right in that I'm blocking my target with the ball, that makes total sense. The new brace was a big help there though. At least now I can consistently release the ball the same way each time and that helped me bowl well in spite of all the other things I was doing wrong. Once I get my swing doing what I want it to, then I'll give the shift-bowl technique a try and see if that makes things better or worse.

In retrospect, it's pretty amazing actually that I'm able to bowl over 200 on occasion with all that I'm doing wrong in that swing. After watching myself in that video I wanted to cringe and hide under the table. I so did not feel like I was doing that, but the camera doesn't lie. Next week (or whenever I go bowling next) I will have my lovely GF video me from the side as well so I can see from both the side and back what I need to work on (probably everything, lol).

[AZBowla]

Fist thing I have noticed which has already been mentioned is opening the shoulders. After you let go of the ball put your balance arm forward with the thumb down, when the ball passes your leg on the release move the balance arm square with your shoulders. One thing that helps me also, is I stand up strait and when the ball passes my legs on the downswing, I bend forward (I've seen other pros do this also).

OK, here it comes... my GF will read this and say "See? I told you so!"

She mentioned this exact same thing about my balance arm but I was getting strikes so I told her I didn't want to fix something that wasn't broken. :o Yes, yes, I know, I'm stubborn. She tells me that all the time too.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try that next time also.

[scottymoney]

Once I get my swing doing what I want it to, then I'll give the shift-bowl technique a try and see if that makes things better or worse.).

I think maybe by trying something like starting with knee bend it may promote a better swing. Worth a shot, just thinking that maybe too much motion of trying to bend knees and backswing during the approach could cause themselves to cancel each other out.

I would say I am of the other extreme, where I had a huge backswing, but I don't think I get as high with the new approach. At this point who knows!!!!! Watching so many different people bowl, you can pick out things that everyone does wrong/could do better and if you try to fix it it could just make it worse. I really need to video myself and get a look at what my current style is. Also I would like you guys to tear it apart to show me what I am missing.

[GoodGorilla]

OK, here it comes... my GF will read this and say "See? I told you so!"

She mentioned this exact same thing about my balance arm but I was getting strikes so I told her I didn't want to fix something that wasn't broken. :o Yes, yes, I know, I'm stubborn. She tells me that all the time too.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try that next time also.

Yeah, when you put your balance arm forward you want to reach for the pins kinda so your shoulders open up, but make sure they are square when it counts.

[Tampabaybob]

Lots of good ideas expressed here but the one that will get you to where you want to be is Bills comment on lowering your ball in your stance. I would say it should be just below your belt line and you want to just let the ball drop into your swing. If necessary speed up your first step and see if that helps.

Bob

[jbeck]

I've been having this issue as well...I don't see it, but I feel my swing not going any higher than my ribcage. If I force it higher my timing and my release is way off! Do any of you practice your swing away from the alley or play a game with just practicing your swing?

[AZBowla]

I find it hard to practice at home since part of that practice would involve releasing the ball at full speed, and I don't want to accidentally put it through a door or wall. I'm hopefully going to be going out again tonight though, so I'll try the tips and pointers that have been posted here and see if that helps.

[billf]

I practice my swing every where without a ball. I'm the only smoker at work so when I'm outside smoking during lunch I will do the 1-step drill.
I'm sorry guys but I have to laugh every time I see a post saying, "slow your feet down". I was told that for years then went to a mybowlingcoach.com session. Two Gold and one Silver coach all told me to speed my feet up. The purpose is to match your ball speed and rev rate. Once you know what you need to do, you can adapt. The guys in my leagues had me rolling around 14 mph. Now I'm back to 18.6 mph at the pins will the same amount of hook and a lot better carry. I know everyone is trying to help but...it's not always the case.

[Tampabaybob]

Bill, you're correct, speeding up your feet is the best answer to speeding up the ball.

Bob

[AZBowla]

I practice my swing every where without a ball. I'm the only smoker at work so when I'm outside smoking during lunch I will do the 1-step drill.

I though about doing that, but everyone would wonder what the hell I was doing and I'm too shy lol! For me, it's different anyhow, I can do a real high Pete Weber style backswing without a ball, but with one as I'm moving towards the foul line at full speed, well that's another story. I know what I'm doing wrong though, thanks to all the input in this thread so I'm sure I'll be able to fix this going forward. Just gonna take lots of practice which is great - another excuse to go to the lanes more often... ;)

[AngeloPD]

also lower your ball in your stance

[AZBowla]

Alright guys, an update....

I'm getting better and more consistent now. I've incorporated the following changes:
1. Lower the ball in my stance to about belt level.
2. Drop my left shoulder and lined my head up with the ball and my arm.
3. Instead of starting feet together I start with my right foot out ahead of my left by about a full step.
4. Both knees are bent before I take the first step.
5. Pushaway goes down instead of up.

Doing this has made my strike shot much more consistent. Unfortunately my scores don't reflect this much yet because I leave a lot of opens when I don't strike - I'm having to relearn how to shoot spares with this new stance. I could just shoot the spares my old way and strikes the new way but I think it would be better to use the same stance and swing for both spares and strikes so it's one less thing to have to think about and remember.

First game was 175 or so (I don't recall the score, just the little trophy that appeared on the overhead monitor that said 175 on it), second game was 203 but then it all fell apart and I shot a miserable 137. AZBowla's girl beat me by two pins in that game., which is great because yesterday was her first time bowling a full series with a fingertip ball. The lanes we were the old (and I mean OLD) wooden lanes at Santa Cruz lanes in Tucson - those from the area will know what I mean, these lanes look like they haven't been redone since the place opened way back in the 60's. So getting a 203 on those old wooden lanes was a big accomplishment and a good sign that I'm on the right track with these changes.

My backswing still isn't parallel with the floor, but I think if I can build on these changes I'll be happy with the result. It definitely "feels" better and the results seem to reflect that as well. Hopefully soon I'll be able to score 200+ consistently. That's my next goal.

[AZBowla's Girl]

OK, here it comes... my GF will read this and say "See? I told you so!"

She mentioned this exact same thing about my balance arm but I was getting strikes so I told her I didn't want to fix something that wasn't broken. :o Yes, yes, I know, I'm stubborn. She tells me that all the time too.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try that next time also.

See....I am not the only one who saw that. ;) LOL

[AZBowla's Girl]

Alright guys, an update....

I'm getting better and more consistent now. I've incorporated the following changes:
1. Lower the ball in my stance to about belt level.
2. Drop my left shoulder and lined my head up with the ball and my arm.
3. Instead of starting feet together I start with my right foot out ahead of my left by about a full step.
4. Both knees are bent before I take the first step.
5. Pushaway goes down instead of up.

Doing this has made my strike shot much more consistent. Unfortunately my scores don't reflect this much yet because I leave a lot of opens when I don't strike - I'm having to relearn how to shoot spares with this new stance. I could just shoot the spares my old way and strikes the new way but I think it would be better to use the same stance and swing for both spares and strikes so it's one less thing to have to think about and remember.

First game was 175 or so (I don't recall the score, just the little trophy that appeared on the overhead monitor that said 175 on it), second game was 203 but then it all fell apart and I shot a miserable 137. AZBowla's girl beat me by two pins in that game., which is great because yesterday was her first time bowling a full series with a fingertip ball. The lanes we were the old (and I mean OLD) wooden lanes at Santa Cruz lanes in Tucson - those from the area will know what I mean, these lanes look like they haven't been redone since the place opened way back in the 60's. So getting a 203 on those old wooden lanes was a big accomplishment and a good sign that I'm on the right track with these changes.

My backswing still isn't parallel with the floor, but I think if I can build on these changes I'll be happy with the result. It definitely "feels" better and the results seem to reflect that as well. Hopefully soon I'll be able to score 200+ consistently. That's my next goal.

I have to agree that his form is getting better and he is becoming more consistent now as well. As far as my bowling yesterday...my scores were really low. They were 112, 124, and 139. The last game I did bet AZBowla by 2 points. :) However, I just had my ball plugged and re-drilled into a fingertip ball. I absolutely love it. I am soooo glad that I did that. It feels a little strange, but my back does not hurt like it did when I bowled with a conventional ball. I am looking forward to getting my new ball soon and then get out there and whoop AZBowla on the lanes.

[AZBowla]

I am looking forward to getting my new ball soon and then get out there and whoop AZBowla on the lanes.

Uh oh, looks like I need to step up my game soon! Plus she will no doubt in addition to the new purple ball bring out the SECRET WEAPON - her amazingly intoxicating perfume! I'm doomed! :D

[Tampabaybob]

Uh oh, looks like I need to step up my game soon! Plus she will no doubt in addition to the new purple ball bring out the SECRET WEAPON - her amazingly intoxicating perfume! I'm doomed! :D

Just re-visited your video and picked up something that I didn't catch before. When you're releasing the ball, it appears that your thumb and fingers may be coming out almost at the same time and you're stopping with your follow through. You want your thumb to be almost half way ou "BEFORE" you start lifting the ball with your fingers. This will give you added revolutions (that you wanted) and if you can get a longer (upward) follow through that should give you some more speed. Watch the video again and stop it just as you release the ball and yo'll see what I'm talking about.

As for the perfume.......enjoy it.

Bob

[Tampabaybob]

I have to agree that his form is getting better and he is becoming more consistent now as well. As far as my bowling yesterday...my scores were really low. They were 112, 124, and 139. The last game I did bet AZBowla by 2 points. :) However, I just had my ball plugged and re-drilled into a fingertip ball. I absolutely love it. I am soooo glad that I did that. It feels a little strange, but my back does not hurt like it did when I bowled with a conventional ball. I am looking forward to getting my new ball soon and then get out there and whoop AZBowla on the lanes.

And now on to the "Boss"..........Now that you have a fingertip, let's see a video so you can kick some but when you two are bowling. The fingertip will help you get much more roll on the ball which in turn equates to more force hitting the pins.

Let's see what we can do to get this games that are below 140 up to 170's. Shoot a video next time you two go out of both of you so we can see what you're doing or not doing and get your scores up. By the way, how heavy is your ball ? That also will make a difference.

And keep the perfume thing going, you've got him mesmerized !! LOL

Bob

[AZBowla's Girl]

Uh oh, looks like I need to step up my game soon! Plus she will no doubt in addition to the new purple ball bring out the SECRET WEAPON - her amazingly intoxicating perfume! I'm doomed! :D

It looks like we are going to have to go out and practice more so that I can get better and beat you. ;) And I will make certain to wear my perfume so that I have an edge since you already know how to throw a fingertip ball. LOL

[AZBowla's Girl]

And now on to the "Boss"..........Now that you have a fingertip, let's see a video so you can kick some but when you two are bowling. The fingertip will help you get much more roll on the ball which in turn equates to more force hitting the pins.

Let's see what we can do to get this games that are below 140 up to 170's. Shoot a video next time you two go out of both of you so we can see what you're doing or not doing and get your scores up. By the way, how heavy is your ball ? That also will make a difference.

And keep the perfume thing going, you've got him mesmerized !! LOL

Bob

My ball is a 14 lb. ball. I am looking into getting possibly the Karma Pearl or the DV8 Misfit next and that ball would either be a 14 or 15 lb. ball. I haven't decided which weight as of yet.

I will make certain to have AZBowla film me the next time we go bowling. I do know that each game I was getting better, so that made me feel good. Plus, I would have gone on more, but we had to go after the three games. The great thing about that is, my back was not hurting like how it used to before. I had problems getting through two games at the time until now. :)

[billf]

Stay at 14 lbs. There's no reason to chance the added weight hurting your back. If it did, that would be too expensive of a paperweight.

[Tampabaybob]

Agreed with Bill. My new ball is a heavy 14 #er and I love it. With these newer balls it's not necessary to throw the heavier balls anymore. Especially if you have back problems.

Look forward to seeing your video.

Bob

[AZBowla's Girl]

Thank you for the advice. I have to agree with you all about keeping it a 14 lb. ball. I really don't want to hurt my back more that it has already been hurt. Thank you...we will be going again really soon, so I will have AZBowla film me the next time we go.

[Mike White]

Lowering the ball in the stance usually results in a higher back swing. Being a Slowinski and Baker disciple, I teach to drop the shoulder. The spine tilt usually allows a natural shoulder drop that is easily reproduced.
Mike, you're very good at this. Have you considered coaching? There are many young bowlers who could benefit from your educated insights. Old ones too but they are usually more stubborn lol



Ok Bill, you talked my into it.

http://membership.bowl.com/USBCsearch/SearchCoachesResult.jsp?rbHow=ByZip&cbCSCountry=US&cbCSState=&eCSZip=92506&cbCSRadius=5&btnSearch.x=12&btnSearch.y=6

[billf]

Glad to see that Mike. There are too many "coaches" out there that don't truly understand the science behind bowling and try to adapt the bowler to how they bowl rather than enhance the bowler's current style. Of course there is nothing wrong with showing them different styles it's the cramming down their throats that bugs me.