An idea to address Sandbagging...

[ArtVandelay]

Im in a non sanctioned company league. Its just for fun, but the sand bagging is completely out of hand. My team is the best overall by a landslide, but a night when we give up on,y 150 pins per game is a great night.

Anyway, Ive been keeping track of scores and everyone seems to be regularly 15+ pins over average now that the league is coming down the back stretch. In addition, there were 5 different 700 series on position night for the first half, and the high average in that group was in the 160s. That same guy has had 3 700 series so far, all against top 3 teams, but he has also had 10 400 series against bottom 5 teams. Some bowlers have simply gotten better...

The league is set up to handicap 90% of the difference between someones average, and 200. Our top bowler is a 196 average, the next 2 are in the 180s. The league average is a 152.

Im trying to think of a motion to make for the summer league to alleviate this problem without discouraging people from joining. The summer league is generally 3x the size of the fall league so lots of people will se setting averages and most of them will be purely recreational bowlers.

Too many people will have to set average, and using book averages is out of the question since no one has a book average. Prize money is on the line, thats the only reason this matters. Lots of people feel cheated. Its not just our team.



So Im kicking around a few ideas. What do you think?

1. Take the top 10 averages, average them together, and use that number in place of 200. So lets say the top 10 bowlers average a 170. Everyone gets 90% of the pins it takes to bring their average up to a 170. Anyone over 170 is scratch.

2. Lower the percentage of pins awarded. Keep things at 200, but instead of getting 90%, you get 70-80%. Less incentive to sand bag since you lose more pins that way.


But I worry any ideas like that might drive some people away. We DO have people who average an 80 or something like that... And they mean well, theyre just there to have fun, and the league IS fun. I dont want to discourage them, I just want to stop the 15 or so people who are so blatantly sandbagging.

Does anyone have input? What option sounds better (theyre both almost the same if you do the math). Do you think setting a lower league average is the better option, or lowering the percentage of pins allowed. Does anyone have a structure system that allows the TRUE 80 average people to still compete in a league like this? perhaps averages under 90 get 95% of the pins or something like that? Does anyone have a success story they can share about how their league killed sandbagging?

[bowl1820]

Ah the age old handicap/sandbagging problem, First thing to say is "This is no perfect answer that will please everyone"

The most viable option's are

1- when you set the handicap XX% of scratch number XXX (Ex. 90% of 200).
You have so set the scratch figure at a number higher than the highest average in the league (or expected average).

Also the USBC recommends the percentage be 100% (This doesn't make team totally equal, about 116% is need for that but it's not recommend)


2-The league should adopt a 10 pin drop rule.
This means that a persons average can't drop more than 10 pins below their entering average (for figuring handicap)

Ex: If a bowlers entering average is 200 and their average drops to say a 180 ave. Their handicap would be figured on a 190 ave.



So Im kicking around a few ideas. What do you think?

1. Take the top 10 averages, average them together, and use that number in place of 200. So lets say the top 10 bowlers average a 170. Everyone gets 90% of the pins it takes to bring their average up to a 170. Anyone over 170 is scratch.

No that's just lowering the scratch figure of the handicap. That would give the higher averages a huge advantage.



2. Lower the percentage of pins awarded. Keep things at 200, but instead of getting 90%, you get 70-80%. Less incentive to sand bag since you lose more pins that way.

Lowering the percentage is just as bad.

Here's from the USBC

But isn’t it a fact that when 75 % handicap is used, the higher average team is giving its
lesser competitor 75% of the difference in team averages when they bowl against each
other?
FACT: True! But what of that other 25%? That is the real handicap, and it is given by the
weaker team, to the stronger one! (The same “reverse handicap” situation is true at any figure
less than 100%, which is why it is not until the handicap reaches 85% that lower average teams
can win at all.)

[e-tank]

id say at the end of the season have the top 4 teams compete tournament style for the top spots via scratch play

[Perrin]

That 10 pin drop rule looks good. The only thing I would add to that is have some kind of documented way to get an exception to that. (injury reasons etc.)

THe reason I say that is a couple years ago I broke my thumb on my bowling hand and it took me nearly 2 years to get my average back up.

[J Anderson]

Two basic thoughts on this subject.

People with averages of 80 shouldn't be bowling for money.

I don't think more or different rules will change this behavior. In my state it seems like the only rule is that anything is alright as long as I get away with it. "The sign says no turn on red, but there's no cop in sight so I'll go." "The sign for the express check out says 12 items or less, but my cart isn't completely full so I'll get in line." These seem to be the basic thought processes of my fellow Nutmeggers. Not exactly new since the Nutmeg State was so named because in colonial Connecticut they would carve pieces of wood and stain them to look like nutmeg and sell them to the unwary as the real thing.

[75lockwood]

I don't know how the league scoring is set up, but why not set up the points system so that every team is playing every other team every week? if the sand bagger has to look at the scores for every lane to know whether they can afford to sandbag without loosing points, it would make it a lot more difficult to pull off. In this situation if you don't try your hardest because your going to beat the team next to you regardless then you get wrecked by the other 12 teams and end up in second last place.

[ecub]

Maybe you can also incorporate a 30 point system? This way, each bowler competes against their opponent on the other team, as well as the team bowling. For example, the bowlers in the 1st position with the highest score (including handicap) would get a point. 2nd position bowler the same. After the game, the winning team with the highest points (including handicap) wins a points. Additional points would be awarded to the team who wins the series. This way, even if a bowler scores 50 above his average and is obvious that the team will will the game, even if the other bowlers on the team slack off using the 7 point system, they still need to bowl well in order to gain points if using the 30 point system.

[Kobra167]

There isn't much you can do if it is being done intentionally, if you dont want to destroy the league. All you can do is promote fair play and do things to minimize the effect. My league uses last years league average for the first few weeks. There are team and individual points for a grand total of 36. So if you are sandbagging you could lose out on a lot of points early. Ive heard of people putting a cap on how much a persons average can drop, but I dont know how effective that is against sandbaggers that do it to cheat. They'll go for any advantage they can get. Also you could have two halves or more to the season. In which the subsequent halves, all the teams will start with zero points again. To make it work, the top teams from the different halves will then engage in match style play for more money or something on the last night. And it's normal for people who took the summer off to come in not bowl so well the first few games because they are rusty. It's particulary true if new lanes get put in, change in oil pattern, or get new heavier pins.

[panbanger]

There are a couple drastic things you could do that everyone would probably hate and are probably almost impossible to pull off –

Assign teams to the lanes at random, and don’t tell them who they are bowling against. You keep that information in a sealed envelope and open it at the end of the night.

Assign teams to the lanes at random, but keep everything else the same. The people who keep checking to see what the other team is doing….you hit them over a head with a roll of quarters in an old sock and yell “homie don’t play that”.

Once you bowl a 700 series you lose your handicap for 3 weeks. Or maybe 2 weeks. Or a week. Or ten minutes I dunno.

[ArtVandelay]

Yup.... Just as I feared when I hit the post button: there is no easy answer.

Perhaps a mixed system is the only answer. Right now we just bowl for total team points. There are no individual points. I used to bowl in a league that had 48 total points per week. The sandbagging was much less prevelant in that league.

Oh well... I guess the only thing to do is deal with it.

[billf]

You're in Texas. Take them out back and shoot them!

[Gunz1911]

I have yet to do leagues, but trying to learn all I can. Want to make sure I get "sandbagging" correct. Is it basically:

Start off the season bowling good.
When playing a team that you should beat, you bowl worse to lower your average and raise your handicap.
When playing a team you really need to beat, with a higher handicap, you have a greater chance to bowl good and beat them?

Just want to make sure I get it. If that is the case, could you not have a side prize for overall scoers through the entire league? That way a team that drops its scores on purpose will have a harder time meeting the over-all scoring.

[J Anderson]

I have yet to do leagues, but trying to learn all I can. Want to make sure I get "sandbagging" correct. Is it basically:

Start off the season bowling good.
When playing a team that you should beat, you bowl worse to lower your average and raise your handicap.
When playing a team you really need to beat, with a higher handicap, you have a greater chance to bowl good and beat them?

Just want to make sure I get it. If that is the case, could you not have a side prize for overall scoers through the entire league? That way a team that drops its scores on purpose will have a harder time meeting the over-all scoring.

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

[e-tank]

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

True. You cant make someone bowl their best or prove that theyre not just having an off day. The only time i thought someone was bagging was when i saw he almost bowled a 900 handicap series. His average was 120 i think so he had like a 80 pin handicap and had a 200+ average for that series. I can see one game but all 3? I think it only irked me cuz he destroyed my handicap high series of 859 haha.

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

[ecub]

Sandbagging is not really bowling to your full potential. Let's say you normally average 210, and you're bowling really well by the 6th frame that you could finish off with a 230. But you're team is already winning by over 100 pins. So you intentionally not bowl your best. Purposely NOT shoot a strike, but shoot high or light and just go for spares or get splits. You finish off with a 180, but your team still wins the game.

[ArtVandelay]

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

Exactly. And in our league it is VERY difficult to find a solution because its a company sponsored league designed for fun. It has to remain fun and inclusive because there are a lot of people who are truly there just to bowl and have fun. We have a ton of straight ball bowlers and I completely believe they have improved over the course of the league because if you start doing something regularly, after a while you will likely improve.

But then there are people who understand the league rules and exploit them. The first sign of sandbagging was when we got clobbered by a team who was in 2nd place. At the time we were in first (not to brag, but we have the best team by averages) and the season was in the first stages. We gave this team about 200 pins each game, and they beat us scratch in game one and game 2. In game 3 they started doing math to find out what they needed to win. Sadly for them, their plan backfired a bit and they were down going into the 9th. After our first bowler bowled, our victory was sealed, so their team closed out the 10th with 8 gutter balls.

But we keep pretty good records, so I started crunching some numbers. Its amazing how much better the top teams bowl when positioning becomes involved.

Our team bowled in the championship position round for the first half of the season, and that same 8 gutter ball team clobbered us so badly it made us wonder why we should even try... The problem with my team is we actually try our best, so its very rare for someone to bowl 30 pins over average and we often have games when we are below our average by a little or a lot. It makes it impossible for us to win because most of the top teams have averages a good 20-40 pins below their actual averages.

2nd half of the season? We are in dead last by a good margin.

[ArtVandelay]

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

Im not aware of a rule against that, but thats a whole new level of awful.

At least the sandbaggers still actually BOWL. I think if you care THAT much about winning to not even BOWL when it matters, something is wrong with that.

I LOVE bowling in the big games. I just want it to be fair. Its tough carrying a 180 average when you know the person bowling across from you can put up a 650+ series with VERY little effort, but you have to GIVE that bowler pins because he has a lower average than you... Twice in this league I have given up pins to the other teams anchor only to have a 700 series rolled against me. To split, I would have had to bowled around a 750 series with my 185 (at the time) average. But in other weeks against teams that matter less, or when positions cant b drastically changed, would you believe a 2 time 700 series guy can struggle to hit 400?

Yup... Im not bitter...

[e-tank]

Im not aware of a rule against that, but thats a whole new level of awful.

At least the sandbaggers still actually BOWL. I think if you care THAT much about winning to not even BOWL when it matters, something is wrong with that.

I LOVE bowling in the big games. I just want it to be fair. Its tough carrying a 180 average when you know the person bowling across from you can put up a 650+ series with VERY little effort, but you have to GIVE that bowler pins because he has a lower average than you... Twice in this league I have given up pins to the other teams anchor only to have a 700 series rolled against me. To split, I would have had to bowled around a 750 series with my 185 (at the time) average. But in other weeks against teams that matter less, or when positions cant b drastically changed, would you believe a 2 time 700 series guy can struggle to hit 400?

Yup... Im not bitter...

haha thats rough man. That team is currently in 3rd place and were playing them this week actually. Theres only one team i struggle against and its because theyre freakin hilarious so when im trying to get ready im still thinking about what they said and loling.

[got_a_300]

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

Around here all of our league rules that states you must have at least 2 regular team members
present on a 4 person team and are allowed to only have 2 subs or you must forfeit the games
or points and no new subs are allowed to come in and bowl on position nights.



you hit them over a head with a roll of quarters in an old sock and yell “homie don’t play that”.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL!!!! I just love that answer and it might just work.


Now as for the original question about sandbagging there isn't really an answer as that is
an age old thing that has probably been around since team bowling first started.

The way we do it around here to try and cut down on anyone trying to sandbag for the first
few weeks on our money leagues is to use last years highest book average from any of the
leagues you bowled in for the first 2 to 4 weeks of bowling of anyone starting out on any fall
money league which cuts way down on any attempts to sandbag the first few weeks.

[got_a_300]

You're in Texas. Take them out back and shoot them!

Hey that might just work bill; but the league would shrink in size in a hurry probably. LOL!!!!!!

[Perrin]

Sadly the only way I know to truely eliminate sandbagging is remove all incentive of winning.

no prize funds, no trophies, no publicity of who wins.


as long as there is something someone can win there will be someone willing to cheat to get it :(