Need help and lots of advice

[classygranny]

Here is a bit of background. This year I am struggling to carry a 175ish average...last few years were 180 and over.

I'm still using a Brunswick Revolver that is probably 4/5 years old. May not have cleaned it as I should, but lately have been faithful about cleaning - and yes, I wipe my ball before every shot.

I have been working on my timing, balance, hand positions, almost to the point that I have myself totally confused.

I have a few questions for all of you that seem to be so knowledge and willing to share that and experience.

1. Do I get my approach, etc worked out (perhaps with a new coach) before purchasing a new ball? Or purchase and then work on the timing/release, etc?

2. When I do purchase a ball, I would like to purchase two (I know this isn't much of an arsenal, but it will have to do for now). Neither to be a spare ball, as I will either determine to buy a spare ball, or just use my first shot ball and change my finger position to take away from the ball to pick up the 10 pin. What would your suggestions be for a two ball arsenal? Bowl on THS for league in evening and morning.

Unfortunately, I am unable to tell you much about my bowling ball layout, etc (a weak point). By looking, the pin is to the right of the fingers about an inch and above the fingers about 1/2". The CG is directly below about 3-4". I can tell you that I do turn the ball, I tend to play down and end, but am able to swing/belly the ball if the shot and ball are there. I tend to be pointing the revolver more at the pocket and it doesn't feel aggressive enough to me. Some of my reading tells me that it could just be "dead" from age. I am right-handed, and currently throw a 14 lb ball. Went down a pound when I purchased the Revolver, and haven't thrown my 15 lb Fury in about 2-3 years. When I do purchase, I plan on going to a different ball driller and have a feeling that this will not be the layout he will use.

Any ideas and suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks!

[noeymc]

my only advise is a bowling ball will not make you a better bowler =D instead of buying 2 balls buy 1 and use the other money on a coach its a win win if u ask me but thats just what i think

[J Anderson]

Here is a bit of background. This year I am struggling to carry a 175ish average...last few years were 180 and over.

I'm still using a Brunswick Revolver that is probably 4/5 years old. May not have cleaned it as I should, but lately have been faithful about cleaning - and yes, I wipe my ball before every shot.

I have been working on my timing, balance, hand positions, almost to the point that I have myself totally confused.

I have a few questions for all of you that seem to be so knowledge and willing to share that and experience.

1. Do I get my approach, etc worked out (perhaps with a new coach) before purchasing a new ball? Or purchase and then work on the timing/release, etc?

2. When I do purchase a ball, I would like to purchase two (I know this isn't much of an arsenal, but it will have to do for now). Neither to be a spare ball, as I will either determine to buy a spare ball, or just use my first shot ball and change my finger position to take away from the ball to pick up the 10 pin. What would your suggestions be for a two ball arsenal? Bowl on THS for league in evening and morning.

Unfortunately, I am unable to tell you much about my bowling ball layout, etc (a weak point). By looking, the pin is to the right of the fingers about an inch and above the fingers about 1/2". The CG is directly below about 3-4". I can tell you that I do turn the ball, I tend to play down and end, but am able to swing/belly the ball if the shot and ball are there. I tend to be pointing the revolver more at the pocket and it doesn't feel aggressive enough to me. Some of my reading tells me that it could just be "dead" from age. I am right-handed, and currently throw a 14 lb ball. Went down a pound when I purchased the Revolver, and haven't thrown my 15 lb Fury in about 2-3 years. When I do purchase, I plan on going to a different ball driller and have a feeling that this will not be the layout he will use.

Any ideas and suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks!

1. As a Level one coach I bound to say that you should work out the the technique issues with a coach before buying a new ball. Until you find a local coach and start working with him or her I have some suggestions:

For balance take a Yoga class. Many Yoga exercises either strengthen balance directly or strengthen the core muscles with help maintain good balance. You may also need to see an ear, nose and throat doctor to make sure there isn't a medical problem with your balance.

To avoid confusion, work on one thing at a time. Don't worry about having a lot of releases. Start with a basic hook release and practice it until it becomes automatic. Then work on a straight or relatively straighter release for spares. Get that down pat, and then practice switching back and forth.

No step and one step drills are great focusing on parts of your game especially arm swing and release. I find they also force me to use my opposite arm for balance, otherwise it gets lazy.

2. I don't really know enough to recommend a new set of bowling balls. Before buying something new I would take the ball to a pro shop that has a revivor oven and have them bake the oil out and re-surface the ball back to the factory finish.

[Zothen]

I agree with J Anderson! It's more important t0 get a coach and work on your issues,then once you get your bowling problems worked out,then buy a ball.

Zothen

[billf]

Technique first then ball. Now that being said, really focus on the technique and not the results on the score board. If your ball is dead or just oil-soaked, all the technique in the world won't solve that. Over-compensating for inferior equipment has led to many bad habits for bowlers.
I have been known to spend hours practicing without even turning the pinsetter on. You really don't need the pins to tell if the ball came off your hand correctly, if the balance arm was right, good slide, etc., etc.

As for which balls to purchase...that depends on the shot at the house you normally bowl at. Heat, humidity, barometric pressure and all that crap all play a role in how quickly the lanes transition and even how well they absorb the oil to begin with. If the pro shop at the lanes where you bowl is good, ask their opinion. If they make a suggestion without ever seeing you bowl, take it with a big grain of salt. Another option is to post a video so style, revs, tilt, rotation, etc. can be analyzed for an informed suggestion.

[classygranny]

Thanks all for confirming what I already knew. What Bill had to say is true, but hard to implement since it's the last few weeks of leagues.

I found a new coach to work with, but we can't get together until mid-May (of all things...he's golfing at Pebble Beach!)

In the meantime, I am going to concentrate on footwork (I tend to get to fast) and "posting" my shot - I step out to the right after releasing. Although, I've had a coach tell me that since it's after I release that it is ok. But I see the difference in the ball reaction when I do - even after release, as I think I'm off balance just enough to make a difference. And hitting my mark. AND not listening to every "coach" behind the foul line on the days I do struggle! Some of them can help, but lately, they have been more hinderance than help. Why is it when you struggle, everyone seems to KNOW what you're doing wrong? Don't get me wrong, I love the help, ideas, and comments, but sometimes you know what you are doing or not doing, and just can't seem to get the correction going in the right direction.

After I work with the new coach, I will come back with more info to get ball suggestions.

In the meantime, I'll see if I can get someone to do some video work with me.

Thanks again for the great comments and help!

[J Anderson]

In the meantime, I am going to concentrate on footwork (I tend to get to fast) and "posting" my shot - I step out to the right after releasing. Although, I've had a coach tell me that since it's after I release that it is ok. But I see the difference in the ball reaction when I do - even after release, as I think I'm off balance just enough to make a difference. And hitting my mark. AND not listening to every "coach" behind the foul line on the days I do struggle! Some of them can help, but lately, they have been more hinderance than help. Why is it when you struggle, everyone seems to KNOW what you're doing wrong? Don't get me wrong, I love the help, ideas, and comments, but sometimes you know what you are doing or not doing, and just can't seem to get the correction going in the right direction.



Thanks again for the great comments and help!

You're most welcome, and I'm sure all of us hope that your game is soon back on track.

While technically anything that happens after the ball leaves your hand doesn't affect the shot, sometimes what happens is a symptom of something bad happening before the release that does. Falling off to the ball side is a sign that you were out of balance as you released the ball, and while sometimes bowlers can get away with it, most times it means a bad shot.

I know what you mean about the "coaches". One of my friends in the sport league is excellent at analyzing technique. While what he says is almost always correct, in the heat of competition it usually distracts me from focusing on my target and throws me off even worse than what I was doing wrong. Then there is my partner in a doubles league who is great about pointing out what I did wrong, but hasn't a clue as far as how to fix it.

[Tampabaybob]

ClassyGranny.... The guys here are correct in telling you to go to a coach first. I've coached over 30 years, and wished that people would at least ask my advice first, before dropping lots of money on equipment. A good coach, will be able to recommend what type and aggressiveness of balls you'll need based on the conditions you currently bowl on. Ask him for his advice. As far as you falling to the right at your point of release, here's a couple of things to keep in mind that you can try. First, your steps should be slow, slow, quick, quick. You don't mention if you slide on your last step, but if you do slide, how much knee bend do you have? When you end at the line is your right leg behind you and your toe on the floor? If not it should be, that will increase your balance. How about your right arm ? Is it extended out to the let of your body? If not, get it out there. Again that's your balance arm. And lastly, where is your slide foot pointing? Hopefully its pointing fairly straight towards the pins. A little angle to the right won't hurt, but extreme pouting to the right is very bad.

Let us know and if you can't wait until May for your coach, have someone video you for about 5 frames from the back and a couple from the side and post it here. We're all here to help you so feel free to ask away. Good luck, let us know how you're doing.

[billf]

ClassyGranny.... The guys here are correct in telling you to go to a coach first. I've coached over 30 years, and wished that people would at least ask my advice first, before dropping lots of money on equipment. A good coach, will be able to recommend what type and aggressiveness of balls you'll need based on the conditions you currently bowl on. Ask him for his advice. As far as you falling to the right at your point of release, here's a couple of things to keep in mind that you can try. First, your steps should be slow, slow, quick, quick. You don't mention if you slide on your last step, but if you do slide, how much knee bend do you have? When you end at the line is your right leg behind you and your toe on the floor? If not it should be, that will increase your balance. How about your right arm ? Is it extended out to the let of your body? If not, get it out there. Again that's your balance arm. And lastly, where is your slide foot pointing? Hopefully its pointing fairly straight towards the pins. A little angle to the right won't hurt, but extreme pouting to the right is very bad.

Let us know and if you can't wait until May for your coach, have someone video you for about 5 frames from the back and a couple from the side and post it here. We're all here to help you so feel free to ask away. Good luck, let us know how you're doing.

Bob meant left arm is your balance arm and should be to your left (for right handed bowlers such as classygranny)

[classygranny]

Thanks Bob & John. I know coach first, and ask way too many questions.

I do slide and my foot is fairly straight, but old coach had me trying to "step into my slide" more so the left toe ends up pointing a bit to the left. I do drift left 5 boards, but it is very consistent at 5 boards.

Balance arm - it is out to the left and I am working on keeping the "thumb down" - hard for me to get that down.

Right leg - it is behind me, not always on the ground. This is what makes me believe it's affecting my shot.

Knee bend - not as much as when I was younger...attempting more. Will more knee bend help to keep the right toe on the floor? Seems like many years ago I was always low to the floor and I always wore the toe of my shoe.

If I get too frustrated before mid-May, I will see if I can get some video.

You guys have already been a hugh help.

Question on footwork....slow, slow, quick, quick...but everyone seems to think slowing the feet down is the answer. But if you get power and ball speed from the lower body, how does slowing the feet down help, other than a timing issue? And if it's timing, shouldn't you start the ball earlier if you are ahead of it? Can one or more of you very knowledge people please elaborate on this, please?

[billf]

I agree with you about the footwork speed. Everybody use to tell me to slow my feet down, slow my speed down. It took me a couple of years to lower my speed the these bowlers acceptable level. Then I had a lesson with Gold coach Ron Hatfield and Silver coach Andy Parker. They told me to speed my ball up. Andy told me to walk like I was angry. Ron asked why I had slowed my speed down so I explained it to him. They had me increase the length of my first two steps and shorter steps the last two. Long, long, short, short. By keeping the third (power, pivot) step short, my momentum allowed for a powerful acceleration into the slide. It took me about two weeks to get my timing back with my returned 20+mph ball speed (at release). My first step is also a cross over step.

As long as your drift is consistent and away from the ball side, don't worry about it. Drifting ball side means you have to come around the body to hit the proper laydown point.

[J Anderson]

Question on footwork....slow, slow, quick, quick...but everyone seems to think slowing the feet down is the answer. But if you get power and ball speed from the lower body, how does slowing the feet down help, other than a timing issue? And if it's timing, shouldn't you start the ball earlier if you are ahead of it? Can one or more of you very knowledge people please elaborate on this, please?

I probably shouldn't try to answer for Bob since he's more than capable of explaining this himself, but I'll try anyway.

Bob's "slow, slow, quick, quick" ( I think he's got the copyright ) is a tempo that starts slow and accelerates to the release. For many bowlers this works well and is reasonably safe advice to give to someone who you haven't seen bowl.

Since we haven't seen you bowl, we really don't have the slightest idea of whether you need to slow down or speed up. For timing with a four step approach, the push-away should be complete when your ball side foot touches down. as the foot touches the floor you should let the ball drop into the swing. At the end of the third step the ball should be at the top of the back swing. Doing one step drills lets you develop a feel for when the ball stops rising and letting gravity send it into the last part of the swing.

[Tampabaybob]

Bob meant left arm is your balance arm and should be to your left (for right handed bowlers such as classygranny)

Thanx Bill....the older the brain gets the less it works right !!!!!

[Tampabaybob]

Thanks Bob & John. I know coach first, and ask way too many questions.

I do slide and my foot is fairly straight, but old coach had me trying to "step into my slide" more so the left toe ends up pointing a bit to the left. I do drift left 5 boards, but it is very consistent at 5 boards.

Balance arm - it is out to the left and I am working on keeping the "thumb down" - hard for me to get that down.

Right leg - it is behind me, not always on the ground. This is what makes me believe it's affecting my shot.

Knee bend - not as much as when I was younger...attempting more. Will more knee bend help to keep the right toe on the floor? Seems like many years ago I was always low to the floor and I always wore the toe of my shoe.

If I get too frustrated before mid-May, I will see if I can get some video.

You guys have already been a hugh help.

Question on footwork....slow, slow, quick, quick...but everyone seems to think slowing the feet down is the answer. But if you get power and ball speed from the lower body, how does slowing the feet down help, other than a timing issue? And if it's timing, shouldn't you start the ball earlier if you are ahead of it? Can one or more of you very knowledge people please elaborate on this, please?


Granny, Glad to hear that most of your approach is right on. I also teach to to "try" to slide left, too, but it's difficult for some people to get it. Balance arm good (sorry about the wrong arm quote !). Right leg behind you, that's good but is it over to the left side of your body? Having it on the left side opens your hips up enabling you to have a good swing plane area. Keeping it on the floor just helps with the balance as opposed to keeping it in the air. Knee bend...tough on us older folks and one my my own dilemmas that I constantly have to be aware of. With me, it makes the difference between shooting mediocre scores and averaging over 220. At 66 my knees are not what they used to be. If I at least get a decent bend at the line (with forward motion at my release) it helps immensely.

Now for your question......slow, slow, quick, quick is a preferred speed for your feet. Can it vary from person to person? Sure, but it's one of those things that can help your timing. If you're trying to add speed to you ball, then a faster approach is warranted. The main concern is that you're able to end up "completely balanced" at the line so you can post your shot. This enables you to deliver the ball easier to your target, watch your ball hit your spot and then follow your ball all the way into the pit, remaining balanced all the way through. Lowering the ball about 6" in your starting position will add speed and raising it will slow it down. You are correct in stating that you get power from your lower body, but that's also another reason for the knee bend at the line, too. Hope I answered your question.

[classygranny]

What's the easiest way to post video? Make it simple, please.

[classygranny]

http://youtu.be/I60HeHzNT3A

Ok...I figured out how to post the video. Sorry, it isn't great - I told my sister she needs photography lessons as bad or worse than I need bowling lessons.

So please help me figure out how to get back on track. The first few balls show how I am stepping out, but the last few aren't too bad, in that way.

Ok....I'm waiting for all the experts tips - Don't forget, I've lost most confidence in my bowling and in the ball. I need that back, please. You won't hurt my feelings.

Thanks in advance!
Granny Gayla

[SouthpawTRK]

If you could please change the video from private to public, that would be greatly appreciated :)

[classygranny]

Ok...accomplished. Sometimes I hate technology, but I love what I can get out of it!

[J Anderson]

It looks like bend forward as you release the ball instead of maintaining a consistent spine tilt. Other wise it looks pretty good.

[Tampabaybob]

Granny..... Johns right about the spine tilt as your going down the approach, but I'm more concerned with your position at the line. Here's what I'm seeing. Your starting position is very good, but as you approach the line it appears that your slide leg straightens too much. I'd say you need a little :) more knee bend at the line. Also, notice your right leg. It's too straight behind you. That does two things. First, it doesn't allow you to open your right hip enough, which will move your swing arm further away from your body. Secondly, it's keeping your leg in the air (also caused by the lack of enough knee bend).

So, here's the drill for you. TRY to get more knee bend at the line. try to keep your starting position (bent over) all the way down. In other words, you should be a little lower at the line than when you start. That should help the spine tilt problem that John mentioned. Next, try to KICK that right leg further to the left on that last slide step keeping your right toe ON THE FLOOR. This should help stabilize your entire delivery allowing you to get a better and cleaner swing.

You have all of the good basics, now you just need to tweak them. One of the things that I do, before I take my first step, I say to myself, "Bend & Reach".
Then I start my approach. After you teach your sister something about photography, is she's still willing (LOL), have her shoot another video. Also ask her to shoot a few shots from your right side. That'll also help. Good luck, show us what you can do.

[classygranny]

John & Bob

Thanks so much. I hadn't put it together that I was leaning so far forward at the line.

Tomorrow I am going to concentrate on Bob's suggestion with the right leg, and the knee bend. I can't ruin this league's average anymore than it already is. And as a team we can't really move up much, so bending knee and kicking balance leg out and toe on the floor it is.

I knew that about the video, but Mr Macho Assistant Manager was working that day and NO ONE that isn't bowling is allowed in the bowling sitting area - she couldn't get close enough to get a good side shot as HE wouldn't let her stand on the lanes to get a good view. He really only allowed her in the sitting area, because I told him the last time I was there I had stuff stolen from my area and she was my protection, since they don't have any sense of security - oh, how I wanted to say "common sense", but I held it as it is a cheap, convenient place to practice.

[Tampabaybob]

Mr Macho sounds like Mr JERK. He needs a lesson on how to impress people so they'll go to another bowling center. ( and yes you tell him that comment came from a former center manager !!) Best time of course to get some side views is their very slow times. See if you can find out when that is, WITHOUT Mr Macho there, and drop in to shoot a couple of games with your semi-professional photographer. LOL

[classygranny]

Mr Macho sounds like Mr JERK. He needs a lesson on how to impress people so they'll go to another bowling center. ( and yes you tell him that comment came from a former center manager !!) Best time of course to get some side views is their very slow times. See if you can find out when that is, WITHOUT Mr Macho there, and drop in to shoot a couple of games with your semi-professional photographer. LOL


I'll be happy to tell him. A few of us tend to give him a piece of our minds...I just didn't that day since I was alone. I will try and take my husband, the low-pro photographer and then see how he reacts to my husband - he takes no gruff from anyone. I'm also thinking of writing to Brunswick...I just don't know if it would do any good. I sure miss the good 'ol days when we had independently owned lanes.

I hear they are redoing an alley that's not too far from me...hopefully, the prices won't be through the ceiling...and maybe they allow someone in the area with you...and maybe they will allow someone on the approach to take a pic or two!

[JPbowl]

>>I'll be happy to tell him. A few of us tend to give him a piece of our minds...I just didn't that day since I was alone. I will try and take my husband, the low-pro photographer and then see how he reacts to my husband - he takes no gruff from anyone. I'm also thinking of writing to Brunswick...I just don't know if it would do any good. I sure miss the good 'ol days when we had independently owned lanes.

Have you talked to the Manager in charge of the center ? if the ***.manager won't listen go right above him.
If its a Brunswick house, then call corporate. emails and snail mail is far too easy to ignore.

I had an issue with not getting my AMF 2-free game coupon (we get for being on a league)
Their assistant manager expected me to pay for the games until they corrected their own error.
I spoke to the manager and told her i was not receiving the emails and she said its fine "just tell them i will take care of it"
next time i go in and say she will take care of it i get " What is she gonna pay for your games NOW ??"

I go back into the manager and tell her the reaction i just got. Ever since have not had any more problems and her attitude has adjusted since .

[Tampabaybob]

Sometimes you have to be a little firm and go over their head. I swear sometimes they think it's coming out of their own pocket. Good for you !!

[classygranny]

Funny thing...last Thursday he started down to my lane...I'm sure to oust my sister while I was warming up. He had just come up to our area, and before he could say anything, my coach came in the back door - about 4-6 lanes away. He left without saying anything to me...I guess the sight of Coach Haugen, Jr intimidated him. Maybe this will help when I go practice..."it's not what you know, but who you know" - LOL.

I had called Brunswick about a week ago and they took my "complaint", but also indicated that the individual centers can instill any "house" rule they feel is necessary to keep the center safe and in good working order...??

Found out later that the manager has been on medical leave...should be back about the time summer leagues start. I will have to have a little chat with him upon his return.