Pin placement?

[GoodGorilla]

Pin up means the ball turns later, pin down means the ball turns earlier. What does pin left and pin right do?

[Perrin]

really that depends on the bowler and where their PAP is.

for right handers in most cases Moving the Pin right would shorten the Pin-PAP distance. This would affect how much the ball Flares. but if it increases or decreases would depend on the bowler and ball.
This would also increase the Drill angle(PAP-PIN-CG angle) while decresing the VAL angle(PIN-PAP-VAL)

from the dual angle wiki
• Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).
• Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).

[Stormed1]

Basically the difference between pin up and pin down is how fast the ball responds to friction. Oin up balls respond quicker to friction and as a result are more angular off the spot. Pin down balls respond slower and as a result are smoother off the spot. Drill angle and pin to pap distace determine when the ball goes into its hook phase

[bowl1820]

Here's a quote from another post in regards to pin up and pin down

1. Do the terms "pin up" and "pin down" actually mean anything, or is the pins ending position merely a function of using the appropriate angle to VAL, and the fact that the pin is either "up" or "down" is really irrelevant?

They mean something, in relation to the grips, but the actual placement of up and down is extremely dependent on many other factors (span size, how far "up" or "down" for instance) In general it is a super inexact method of drill notation, and is OUTDATED in that, it tells the reader/driller absolutely nothing about the expected reaction. The Pin's ending position should be a 100% product of the angle to the VAL and the distance to the PAP. The up/down is 100% irrelevant.

as for left or right it's more about how close the pin is to the PAP(positive axis point) which will determine how much flare the ball has.

[GoodGorilla]

Here's a quote from another post in regards to pin up and pin down

1. Do the terms "pin up" and "pin down" actually mean anything, or is the pins ending position merely a function of using the appropriate angle to VAL, and the fact that the pin is either "up" or "down" is really irrelevant?

They mean something, in relation to the grips, but the actual placement of up and down is extremely dependent on many other factors (span size, how far "up" or "down" for instance) In general it is a super inexact method of drill notation, and is OUTDATED in that, it tells the reader/driller absolutely nothing about the expected reaction. The Pin's ending position should be a 100% product of the angle to the VAL and the distance to the PAP. The up/down is 100% irrelevant.

as for left or right it's more about how close the pin is to the PAP(positive axis point) which will determine how much flare the ball has.

I think my driller knows those things. He just asks me how would I like the ball to react, and I would give him the ball make I am interested in. Then he would tell me how much inch pin I need to get. The layouts I have on my balls are pretty different, but the inch pin has always been 3 or less. The balls he had drilled for me do pretty much exactly what I asked him to do. I just don't understand much of it even after reading revolutions 2 a few times.

[billf]

Ahh, where two worls collide. Old school with PSA layouts that are outdated vs. new school dual angle layouts.
Basically, pin up and pin down are terms used by bowlers with outdated knowledge or those trying to sound like they know what they're talking about. That's not meant to offend anybody just an observation.

Pin to PAP also affects how easily the ball core will rev up in addition to track flare. There is a point of diminishing returns however as distance closer than 3 1/2" start to reduce the affects.

[Gunz1911]

I should have paid more attention in math..... to be honest without doing it hands on, All this Pin-Pap-CG angel-val just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully once I get a 2nd ball the guy I take it to knows what he is doing!!

[GoodGorilla]

I just might start doing things like measuring my own PAP. My driller has it, I should try comparing numbers and go from there. I wonder how much it matters though. I do change the angle I roll the ball depending on the condition, ummmm should I take PAP by throwing the ball strait?

[Mike White]

If you visualize the core of the ball shaped like a football:
A pin up ball would have the finger and thumb holes drilled into the "laces"
which would increase the differential.

A pin down ball would have the fingers and thumb straddling the point of the "football"
reducing the differential.

Bill, a balls RG is an indicator of how easily a ball with rev up, (or technically how much energy is required)
So a higher RG ball won't spin as easily regardless of Pin to Pap distance.

Pin To Pap effects track flare.
Less track flare, the more the ball rolls on previous oil rings causing it to react to friction later.
More track flare, the fresher the surface it rolls on, an reacts to friction sooner.

The number you were thinking of is 3 3/8" and that is the peak position for symmetrical balls.
For Asymmetrical balls the flare increases as the Pin to Pap increases, with a practical limit at about 6 3/4"

[Tampabaybob]

Ahh, where two worls collide. Old school with PSA layouts that are outdated vs. new school dual angle layouts.
Basically, pin up and pin down are terms used by bowlers with outdated knowledge or those trying to sound like they know what they're talking about. That's not meant to offend anybody just an observation.

Pin to PAP also affects how easily the ball core will rev up in addition to track flare. There is a point of diminishing returns however as distance closer than 3 1/2" start to reduce the affects.

BillF.............. "OLD SCHOOL" ??? I'm offended !! LOL

[Greenday]

Basically, pin up and pin down are terms used by bowlers with outdated knowledge or those trying to sound like they know what they're talking about. That's not meant to offend anybody just an observation.

I'm going to have to disagree. It can still be a relative term to use even with new layouts. It's more of a generalized term to use to describe the drilling.

[billf]

But it doesn't. Given an average PAP of 4" over and 1/4" up, a 60° drill angle will be pin up. Seeing as that is not a long drill angle it doesn't correlate well at all.

[Mike White]

But it doesn't. Given an average PAP of 4" over and 1/4" up, a 60° drill angle will be pin up. Seeing as that is not a long drill angle it doesn't correlate well at all.

I think you mean Val angle. Drill angle doesn't factor into the pin up/down issue.

[billf]

Mike, however a 10° drill angle will roll the soonest while a 90° drill angle will roll later. Pin up in a PSA layout will roll later and pin down earlier.

[Perrin]

I think you mean Val angle. Drill angle doesn't factor into the pin up/down issue.

that would depend on the position of the CG.

CG towards grip center from the line of the move, pin up would be a narrower angle.
CG in line with the move would be no change of Angle.
CG towards PAP from line of the move, Pin up would be a wider angle.

[Mike White]

Mike, however a 10° drill angle will roll the soonest while a 90° drill angle will roll later. Pin up in a PSA layout will roll later and pin down earlier.

I meant changing the drill angle doesn't change whether the pin ends up above or below the fingers, changing the val angle does.

[billf]

I meant changing the drill angle doesn't change whether the pin ends up above or below the fingers, changing the val angle does.

OK, now we're on the same page.

[GoodGorilla]

Mike, however a 10° drill angle will roll the soonest while a 90° drill angle will roll later. Pin up in a PSA layout will roll later and pin down earlier.

So this is pretty much the answer then for up and down. What about pin left and right? Also, is dual angle system better than psa?

[Mike White]

So this is pretty much the answer then for up and down. What about pin left and right? Also, is dual angle system better than psa?

Moving the Pin Left or Right could change both the Pin to PAP distance as well as the Val angle.

Changing the Pin to Pap distance changes the flare potential, and the "energy burn rate"

[GoodGorilla]

Moving the Pin Left or Right could change both the Pin to PAP distance as well as the Val angle.

Changing the Pin to Pap distance changes the flare potential, and the "energy burn rate"

Probably off topic but how does rev's effect energy burn rate? I mean I know that revs = rotational energy when striking the pins, but if your ball burns energy from the revs why rev it up?