I wanna be a hooker!

[DLP]

In another aspect of my life, I'm a happy hooker. As in, I crochet! You know, hook, yarn.. make pretty things that collect dust on the back of couches.

On the lanes though, all I want to do is learn HOW to hook the ball. Unfortunately, as it turns out, my husband is NOT the one to teach me as he has is own style that he gets a hook with, and it doesn't look like anything I've ever seen, nor can he dictate to me how he is doing it.

That being said, I've read up on trying to lean how to hook the ball and have a few questions.

1) Does it really take a fingertip grip? My Pyramid Path (my older spare ball) is drilled semi-fingertip, but my two heavier balls (my Tzone and my Cyclone) are not. The reason why is that they used to feel way to heavy to be throwing fingertip with for my taste. That being said, I've read numerous websites that say fingertip! fingertip! fingertip! Is the only way to go when throwing a hook?

Since I mentioned about the ball feeling way to heavy to bowl fingertip (like I wouldn't have control of it), since I've changed my release but haven't tried my Path again, I'm curious if there is any difference to how I throw that.

2) If the fingertip grip is the case on throwing a hook, what are my chances of trying to learn how to throw one with a conventional grip?

3) I'm 100% convinced I was built backwards. I constantly throw a fade (the ball just beautifully drifts from left to right on the backend) when I'm not "thinking" of actual release. Anyway to take this and reverse it? No, I don't know what I'm doing to cause this, because the minute I think about what I'm doing, I can't do it anymore. Make sense?


Thanks in advance for your advice
-Donna

[billf]

1. Can a conventional grip be hooked? Yes but it takes a tremendous amount of revs.
2. Chances of learning how, decent. Being able to actually get it to hook? Slim to none and none has left the building
3. It's called a back up ball. It happens when the release has the hand still inside the ball instead of under it or outside it. It's actually a good drill to train how to get inside the ball. If your wrist would move counter-clockwise just a bit, your ball would hook.

Conventional grip call for more thumb gripping (bending the thumb to hold on to the ball in the downswing) than fingertip grips. The fingertip grip is actually tighter on the fingers which helps distribute the weight better allowing for a relaxed thumb. The base of the thumb is where all the weight/pressure should be.

[GoodGorilla]

Well, your gonna need a fingertip grip ball with a decent coverstock and core. Throwing a large hook isn't always the best thing to do with a ball, but if you really want to throw a big hook you'll need the right equipment then the right technique. The technique is basically, sometime before letting go of the ball, you got to get your hand underneath the ball. By getting your hand under the ball your wrist will be in a cocked position, and after the ball passes your right leg you let your thumb out of the ball and uncock your wrist to create some revs on the ball. Now, when the ball is rev'd up the core in the ball should be enough to create a hooking pattern. If the ball isn't hooking enough, you can change the angle of your hand when uncocking the ball, the simplest way i can describe that angle is if you were to try and spiral a football underhanded. You can get more hook by putting more rev's on the ball, changing the angle of the reving, and changing the ball you are using. Typically it is really hard to get hook on a plastic ball, or a ball from the bowling ally. If you want to hook one of those, you got to throw the ball with your tumb out of the ball by bracing it on your forearm then doing that underhand spiral release. All in all it takes a right ball and a lot of practice, I got my lil bro a nice ball last christmas and have to show him how to do it everytime we go bowling, he still doesn't have it right.

A few other things worth mentioning. If the lane has a lot of oil on it the ball will be harder to hook because they ball will skid on the oil, and the ball will hook more on dry lanes because there is more friction there. Also, I would not get the ball that has the most hook for your first ball, I would go for a ball made for medium oil lanes. You can go on many manufacturer's websights and see the hooking pattern they create on different amounts of oil. The ball I like the most at the moment is ment for medium to dry lanes and I have a length+backend layout on the ball. Layouts are the way the driller puts the holes in your ball and can change the way the ball reacts. Here is the link to the meanstreak. http://www.bowlwithbrunswick.com/balls/detail/meanstreak/

The meanstreak has a pretty high RG value so you would have a harder time putting revs on the ball. If I was you I would try to find a ball that has a low RG, medium/high RG differential and has a pearl coverstock ment for medium oil lanes. This is the closest ball I can find that has those specs. The IQ tour pearl - http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/iqtourpearl

Oh yeah, you need to find a good driller. I would get my ball drilled at an AMF bowling center, and find what layout you want to get put on your ball. bowlingball.com has layouts for balls, here is one for the iq tour pearl http://www.bowlingball.com/drilling-layouts/Storm/10632/IQ-Tour-Pearl
I would print the layout and bring it to the driller to see how much inch pin you need for the layout. The inch pin is how far the bowling ball pin is from it's center of gravity, and not all layouts can go on all bowling balls. Bowling ball layouts require a minimum to maximum inch pin, and when you order a bowling ball you have to get the inch pin within that range for the desired layout. Then order the ball on a sight like bowlingball.com because if you don't your gonna play like 50-80 bucks more for the same ball if you buy it from a proshop.

[Gunz1911]

Don't worry, I want to be a hooker too. But my wife says I don't have the body for it.

[DLP]

;) Gunz :D

On a serious note - would it make sense to get my Cyclone re-drilled yet again?
Or just break down and do the "I'm not worthy" and pick up a slightly lighter ball and get it drilled fingertip? (afraid that 14lb (which I am throwing right now but with very little revs) is to heavy for a fingertip and no I don't know where I got this idea from)

Or stick with just bowling like I am for awhile, work on a higher average and think about learning how to throw a hook later in life?

[classygranny]

Donna, my humble opinion such as it may be...find a coach - a good one. Spend the money on a coach first and then rework your bowling balls accordingly. Work with him/her and make your main objective for the first time to be these type of questions...ball weight, hook or no-hook, stance, footwork, release. Someone watching you closely will be able to ascertain if your difficulties are arising from the weight, the drilling, your stance/footwork/release. Sometimes our bodies just don't want to adjust to something new. My coach will have me try something new and within a few attempts he will be able to tell if I will be able to "pick it up" or we have to "try another way" as he says our bodies/minds don't always adapt the way we believe they should. You will find that it will be well worth the money spent! You can then choose whether to keep working with them or to adventure the road alone. You seem to have lots of options available to you, and your desire/passion is most certainly in the right place! Oh, and learn to throw a hook - the sooner, the better.

[GoodGorilla]

Norm Duke is like 120 pounds and throws a 16. I started out with a 16, but it took to much a toll on my joints and caused pain after several games. But it is better to be to light than to heavy.

[billf]

Well, your gonna need a fingertip grip ball with a decent coverstock and core. Throwing a large hook isn't always the best thing to do with a ball, but if you really want to throw a big hook you'll need the right equipment then the right technique. The technique is basically, sometime before letting go of the ball, you got to get your hand underneath the ball. By getting your hand under the ball your wrist will be in a cocked position, and after the ball passes your right leg you let your thumb out of the ball and uncock your wrist to create some revs on the ball. Now, when the ball is rev'd up the core in the ball should be enough to create a hooking pattern. If the ball isn't hooking enough, you can change the angle of your hand when uncocking the ball, the simplest way i can describe that angle is if you were to try and spiral a football underhanded. You can get more hook by putting more rev's on the ball, changing the angle of the reving, and changing the ball you are using. Typically it is really hard to get hook on a plastic ball, or a ball from the bowling ally. If you want to hook one of those, you got to throw the ball with your tumb out of the ball by bracing it on your forearm then doing that underhand spiral release. All in all it takes a right ball and a lot of practice, I got my lil bro a nice ball last christmas and have to show him how to do it everytime we go bowling, he still doesn't have it right.

A few other things worth mentioning. If the lane has a lot of oil on it the ball will be harder to hook because they ball will skid on the oil, and the ball will hook more on dry lanes because there is more friction there. Also, I would not get the ball that has the most hook for your first ball, I would go for a ball made for medium oil lanes. You can go on many manufacturer's websights and see the hooking pattern they create on different amounts of oil. The ball I like the most at the moment is ment for medium to dry lanes and I have a length+backend layout on the ball. Layouts are the way the driller puts the holes in your ball and can change the way the ball reacts. Here is the link to the meanstreak. http://www.bowlwithbrunswick.com/balls/detail/meanstreak/

The meanstreak has a pretty high RG value so you would have a harder time putting revs on the ball. If I was you I would try to find a ball that has a low RG, medium/high RG differential and has a pearl coverstock ment for medium oil lanes. This is the closest ball I can find that has those specs. The IQ tour pearl - http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/iqtourpearl

Oh yeah, you need to find a good driller. I would get my ball drilled at an AMF bowling center, and find what layout you want to get put on your ball. bowlingball.com has layouts for balls, here is one for the iq tour pearl http://www.bowlingball.com/drilling-layouts/Storm/10632/IQ-Tour-Pearl
I would print the layout and bring it to the driller to see how much inch pin you need for the layout. The inch pin is how far the bowling ball pin is from it's center of gravity, and not all layouts can go on all bowling balls. Bowling ball layouts require a minimum to maximum inch pin, and when you order a bowling ball you have to get the inch pin within that range for the desired layout. Then order the ball on a sight like bowlingball.com because if you don't your gonna play like 50-80 bucks more for the same ball if you buy it from a proshop.

A few corrections although the intent was well meant
1. Any ball can go straight with revs. With 0° axis rotation the end of end roll is still counts as revs. If the lanes are super burnt up then the ball may still move a couple of boards, just as a plastic ball could.
2. Low RG, medium/high RG diff blah, blah blah...what do you consider low, medium and high?
3. Internet is cheaper than pro shop to buy a ball. Maybe at some shops but not all. Research is needed to find total cost at shop if purchased there and cost of drilling, grips and inserts if purchased elsewhere. In my area, the internet is the same or more.

HAVE A GREAT DAY!!

[GoodGorilla]

2. Low RG, medium/high RG diff blah, blah blah...what do you consider low, medium and high?

Well, in relation to all the RG values I have on bowling balls. I know a Brunswick Aura is considered low at 2.4, and another ball is considered high at 2.5+. I've read the higher RG will make the ball harder to rev, and the higher the differential the more flare potential/hook power.

1. Any ball can go straight with revs. With 0° axis rotation the end of end roll is still counts as revs.

Wouldn't the core would also have to be placed vertical for this to happen? What I was trying to say is that you can still hook the ball end over end. A few of my balls will do it on a dry lane.

3. Internet is cheaper than pro shop to buy a ball. Maybe at some shops but not all. Research is needed to find total cost at shop if purchased there and cost of drilling, grips and inserts if purchased elsewhere. In my area, the internet is the same or more.

That just blows my mind from the prices I have seen at 5 different proshops where I live. I don't doubt it though.

I didn't want to come off as a know it all, I just wrote about things I think I know. Being corrected just helps me out, I don't know anyone personally who knows their stuff well.

[Tampabaybob]

WOAH Guys.....I think that you're getting off track a bit here and Judy had the correct answers to her questions. Cudo's to Judy !!!!

Donna, Whenever I answer a question, I always look at someones profile first to see if they're a new bowler or someone averaging 190. Because you are fairly new to the game, I'm going to side with Judy and tell you to find a GOOD (spelled "recommended") coach in your area. That would be the first step. They will be able to work with you and 'show' you how to throw a hook, and also recommend whether you should go to a fingertip grip. I will say that I have continually recommended that bowlers, both kids and adults, change to a fingertip ASAP, as it's more comfortable, and easier to throw. I even recommended that to my wife, when she got her new ball a couple of years ago, and you know I wouldn't take a chance on recommending that to my wife, because I'd never hear the end of it. She also was a beginner bowler, loved the fact that it was more comfortable, and she also threw a back-up ball. Of course I "tried" to change her, but you can imagine how that went. Anyway, to me, it is definitely recommended. Ask your coach, when you find one and get some lessons, what he or she thinks about the grip change. It'll always be easier to throw a hook with the fingertip.
By the way, while we're on the subject, do you know why most women automatically throw a back-up ball? If you stretch your arms, straight out in front of you, notice that your arms bend outward (more than a mans does) from the elbows. That shape is more naturally conducive for women to throw a back-up naturally. That is not to say you cannot "learn" to throw a normal hook. It simply means, that physically, because "most", not all, women's arms bend that way, it's just more natural. Now go find a good coach, and work with him or her to set you on the path you want. Good luck, and keep us updated on how you're doing.

[Gunz1911]

Is it still considered a Brooklyn if you get a strike with a back-up ball? I know random question, Tampa just made me withink of it with how a woman's arm bends further than a man's. Has anyone ever done soley back-up balls as thier primary delivery?

[GoodGorilla]

Is it still considered a Brooklyn if you get a strike with a back-up ball? I know random question, Tampa just made me withink of it with how a woman's arm bends further than a man's. Has anyone ever done soley back-up balls as thier primary delivery?

I heard an announcer ask another one about that, and they didn't know either.

[classygranny]

Is it still considered a Brooklyn if you get a strike with a back-up ball? I know random question, Tampa just made me withink of it with how a woman's arm bends further than a man's. Has anyone ever done soley back-up balls as thier primary delivery?

I bowl on Fri am with a lady that throws a beautiful "reverse hook". Do NOT by any means tell her she throws a back-up ball (altho we all refer to it as that) and being right handed she only considers a 1-3 pocket strike a Brooklyn strike as she says; "a Brooklyn strike is a strike that hits the opposite side of the head pin than you were aiming" and since her "reverse hook" aims to hit the 1-2 pocket it is not considered a Brooklyn.

Someone who may be throwing a bit of a fade/backup ball and aiming for the 1-3 pocket as a right hander, would then consider a 1-2 pocket strike a Brooklyn.

Just my take on the question...I'm by no means an expert.

[Tampabaybob]

You are correct Gayla. Anyone that throws "a reverse hook" has their pocket in the 1 - 2 pin. And as you mentioned, their "brooklyn" is the 1-3 pocket.

Many years ago, when I bowled the New England Bowlers Association tournaments, there were a couple of guys that threw reverse hooks. These guys were tough and almost always made the cut. There's probably not that many anymore, but from time to time you might run across one. Remember they have the same advantage as a left hander because they don't have to be concerned with oil depletion the way right handers do. So I guess that's a good thing to consider.

[DLP]

Got a name and got a phone number :) Turns out my hubby went down to get his Black Mamba redrilled (he is being persnickety) and while in the Pro shop ran into a guy who happens to be a coach. Go fig. I must have rubbed the jeanie bottle the right way this morning.
Guess who ended up being the center of attention and I wasn't even there to defend myself? :P

Tomorrow I make the phone call and we'll see what happens :)
There is hope for the hopeless yet!

[GoodGorilla]

A few corrections although the intent was well meant
1. Any ball can go straight with revs. With 0° axis rotation the end of end roll is still counts as revs. If the lanes are super burnt up then the ball may still move a couple of boards, just as a plastic ball could.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!

I'm a little confused after reading this in bowling this month magazine. Axis rotation is in relation to your finger holes? But hook is created by the flare of the ball, and the flare of the ball is caused by the core from going from tilted to strait? I mean, if you have a layout for an end over roll it should still hook or if the layout permits. Anyhow, I don't understand why a plastic ball would hook end over end if it's going strait at the target. I can also hook a spare ball if I want to, it baffles many of people including myself. I need to put some polish on it with my new ball spinner.

[Tampabaybob]

Got a name and got a phone number :) Turns out my hubby went down to get his Black Mamba redrilled (he is being persnickety) and while in the Pro shop ran into a guy who happens to be a coach. Go fig. I must have rubbed the jeanie bottle the right way this morning.
Guess who ended up being the center of attention and I wasn't even there to defend myself? :P

Tomorrow I make the phone call and we'll see what happens :)
There is hope for the hopeless yet!

DLP...... That's great !!!! Hope this works out well for you and by all means keep us abreast of what's happening. "You Go Girl " !!!

[billf]

I'm a little confused after reading this in bowling this month magazine. Axis rotation is in relation to your finger holes? But hook is created by the flare of the ball, and the flare of the ball is caused by the core from going from tilted to strait? I mean, if you have a layout for an end over roll it should still hook or if the layout permits. Anyhow, I don't understand why a plastic ball would hook end over end if it's going strait at the target. I can also hook a spare ball if I want to, it baffles many of people including myself. I need to put some polish on it with my new ball spinner.

My old Storm Ice, I can hook with ease when rev dominant. My Brunswick T-Zone won't move more than 1 board. Both have a pancake weight block and according to the manufacturers are identical. So why one will hook easily and the other won't is beyond me.

Axis rotation. This may be the easiest way to explain it when not in person lol
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Axis_Rotation_Comparison_Video
Basically the angle of the finger holes in relation to the foul line. Tilt is the angle across the center of the ball, like the Earth's equator if it were tilting to one side. This is controlled by the angle when the thumb exits the ball. Very difficult to learn to vary.

What confuses me is being told to use available charts to measure the oil track and flare rings to determine tilt, etc. but BTM says flare creates hook? Layouts and ball design both can affect flare so them also affecting hook makes sense.

[GoodGorilla]

My old Storm Ice, I can hook with ease when rev dominant. My Brunswick T-Zone won't move more than 1 board. Both have a pancake weight block and according to the manufacturers are identical. So why one will hook easily and the other won't is beyond me.
.

The spareball I use is a pyramid, If I try, I can hook the ball quite hard on dry lanes, and even a decent amount on oily lanes. The ball will also grab the dry parts of the lane at times and change the ball direction slightly resembling a hook. I wonder if there is a straiter spareball out there, or do I just need to polish it up, or maybe even sand it. I havn't heard anyone talk about sanding their spareball yet, sounds like a bad idea.

[billf]

I know people who polish them but haven't heard of anybody sanding them yet. Given that the lane surface smoothes out the finish on a reactive resin ball, I would assume the same is true for polyester. If that's the case, it's not worth sanding.
Polish it up and see what happens. You can use Turtle Wax Polish. Comes in a green tub and works great. Shines as good as the bowling products and seems to last a little longer while being drastically cheaper.

The Hammer Taboo spare ball is the big misnomer, It has a polyester cover with the Taboo core so it will hook. The reason? To help their bowlers win the plastic ball PBA event is my guess.

My initial order with BowlerX I asked for a plastic ball that goes straight as an arrow and I don't care what it looks like. Send me the ball that fits that description but is too ugly to sell. The sent me the T-Zone orange/yellow. Goes straight and straight only. Plus it looks good, not that I care about that.

[J Anderson]

Given that the lane surface smoothes out the finish on a reactive resin ball, I would assume the same is true for polyester. If that's the case, it's not worth sanding.


I think its the the lane surface changes the finish of any ball. A ball that is finished with a very coarse grit will get smoother. A ball with a fine grit finish like 4000 will get rougher. Either way your advice to polish the spare ball is right on.

[Tampabaybob]

The spareball I use is a pyramid, If I try, I can hook the ball quite hard on dry lanes, and even a decent amount on oily lanes. The ball will also grab the dry parts of the lane at times and change the ball direction slightly resembling a hook. I wonder if there is a straiter spareball out there, or do I just need to polish it up, or maybe even sand it. I havn't heard anyone talk about sanding their spareball yet, sounds like a bad idea.

Polish your spare ball once every two league sessions and you "should never" miss another ten pin or six-ten.