Sandbaggers

[Bunny]

Wow! We compared league sheets from the end of spring league and the first week of fall league.

Holy Sandbaggers Batman!!

J.C. Spring high game/series 237/600 ave 171. Fall 1st week ave. 139. Huh?
B.S. Spring high game/series 224/601 ave. 169. Fall 1st week ave. 122. Whaaat?
K.B. Spring high games/series 212/588 ave. 164. Fall 1st week ave. 139. Say again?


The last two guys are on the same team and won the league spring and summer.

I have to give these guys pins? :confused:

[J Anderson]

It does seem suspicious since at least two of them bowled over the summer. Back in the days when your average league bowler put his ball in the closet for the summer and didn't think about bowling until the reminder that the league was starting again is September it was normal to see a lot of rust the first week. Normally guys who didn't bowl in the summer would shoot 15-30 total pins under their average for the night. Usually it was either a really bad first game or the ball feeling like it weighed 20 pounds by the third game.

I admit there are nights when I'm 30 under for each game but I usually save those for position nights;)

[e-tank]

Its possible or maybe they just had a bad night.

i averaged 175 the end of my last league and the first night of my current one i average 120 i think.

[Bunny]

Its possible or maybe they just had a bad night.

i averaged 175 the end of my last league and the first night of my current one i average 120 i think.



Nope. I bowled with these guys. You don't bowl 600 series by accident.

And, keep in mind that Spring league's averages include their Sandbag scores from the first week of that league. (To bring a 122 average up to a 169 in 9 weeks you'd have to average something like over 200 a game, hence the 600 series.)

If anyone should be rusty it's me, and my league average went up 20 pins!

If it was a Vegas league I'd be contacting Burkhalter and they could just un-post it!! :cool:

[vdubtx]

Does your league not use the prior season average or the book average for the first few weeks of league? If not, perhaps your league should institute that rule next time. That helps keep sandbaggers to a minimum.

[billf]

I bowled all summer. My first two weeks of my SCRATCH league I didn't break 600. The last three weeks of summer league I wasn't under 800. Somehow my timing and release just left. Luckily they are now back from vacation as I shot four 700+ series last week.

[Bunny]

Does your league not use the prior season average or the book average for the first few weeks of league? If not, perhaps your league should institute that rule next time. That helps keep sandbaggers to a minimum.

That makes sense.

Thank you!

[MICHAEL]

I bowled all summer. My first two weeks of my SCRATCH league I didn't break 600. The last three weeks of summer league I wasn't under 800. Somehow my timing and release just left. Luckily they are now back from vacation as I shot four 700+ series last week.

something doesn't add up here Bill?? I went to bowling awards com, like a do on many occasions to check up on Jason, THE REAL DEAL Jason! with 5 sanctioned 300, and now two 800s! But Bill they must have made a huge mistake, It has your name, Bill H Freitas, Sidney Oh, and your ID #1901-2857, also that you are a bronze coach, but NO 300's, no 800s, and your average for the last 6 years around 167???????

If I were you I would call them, they have a phone number, and email address to fix this error! Wow,,, I would be UPSET, if they messed my averages up that bad!!!

[Bunny]

I admit there are nights when I'm 30 under for each game but I usually save those for position nights;)

Umm. Isn't that sandbagging? :(

[vdubtx]

Umm. Isn't that sandbagging? :(

J Anderson was being facetious. He "saves" the off nights for when they really count on position round. :D

[dnhoffman]

something doesn't add up here Bill?? I went to bowling awards com, like a do on many occasions to check up on Jason, THE REAL DEAL Jason! with 5 sanctioned 300, and now two 800s! But Bill they must have made a huge mistake, It has your name, Bill H Freitas, Sidney Oh, and your ID #1901-2857, also that you are a bronze coach, but NO 300's, no 800s, and your average for the last 6 years around 167???????

If I were you I would call them, they have a phone number, and email address to fix this error! Wow,,, I would be UPSET, if they messed my averages up that bad!!!


Woah, we got ourselves a fallout thread!!

Over on BBE they have this cool addition on your profile where you can put in your USBC and it's... Telling.

[vdubtx]

something doesn't add up here Bill?? I went to bowling awards com, like a do on many occasions to check up on Jason, THE REAL DEAL Jason! with 5 sanctioned 300, and now two 800s! But Bill they must have made a huge mistake, It has your name, Bill H Freitas, Sidney Oh, and your ID #1901-2857, also that you are a bronze coach, but NO 300's, no 800s, and your average for the last 6 years around 167???????

If I were you I would call them, they have a phone number, and email address to fix this error! Wow,,, I would be UPSET, if they messed my averages up that bad!!!

Must be one of those 4 game leagues that are so popular that he bowls in.

[Zaxmazr]

Must be one of those 4 game leagues that are so popular that he bowls in.

4 game leagues?? I can't imagine!

[vdubtx]

4 game leagues?? I can't imagine!

Yup. One of the Sport leagues I bowled years ago were 4 games. We had 3 man teams on the PBA patterns. One of the leagues at a house I bowl in is a doubles league and they bowl 4 games.

[Zaxmazr]

Yup. One of the Sport leagues I bowled years ago were 4 games. We had 3 man teams on the PBA patterns. One of the leagues at a house I bowl in is a doubles league and they bowl 4 games.

Oh okay, so there's less than 5 per team, I could see it now.
Because 4 games with 5 people would take so long lol

[Mudpuppy]

this is an epic thread and sometimes 3 games with 5 guys takes forever. even 3 games with 4 people on saturdays can drag on.

[Aslan]

this is an epic thread and sometimes 3 games with 5 guys takes forever. even 3 games with 4 people on saturdays can drag on.

I don't know how much of it is games/team sizes versus just the "atmosphere" of the league. The Thursday league I bowl in with Bunny...I swear we're the last team done each night...even on the night we bowled against the "BYE" team. Our team is so relaxed and non-serious that I think we spend a lot of time just standing around drinking and eating and people watching.

Also, we don't get a lot of strikes...so that means ya roll twice every frame rather than once...double the time.

[dnhoffman]

No reply... Call out unanswered :(

[vdubtx]

No reply... Call out unanswered :(

Yeah, was waiting for reply on that as well.

Was looking at the other site at his Post Scores thread and he mentioned he had a game where he started with 6 opens and then shot a 201 in that game. Scratching my head of how that was pulled off as the max with starting 6 open frames with a 9 count is 54 through 6 and then strike out gives a 174. :confused:

[Mudpuppy]

I don't know how much of it is games/team sizes versus just the "atmosphere" of the league. The Thursday league I bowl in with Bunny...I swear we're the last team done each night...even on the night we bowled against the "BYE" team. Our team is so relaxed and non-serious that I think we spend a lot of time just standing around drinking and eating and people watching.

Also, we don't get a lot of strikes...so that means ya roll twice every frame rather than once...double the time.

Well it's hard for me to understand this year. In the past I have been on teams where a player is in the bar doing shots or down talking to other team's players, etc. This year everyone on both teams is always ready to bowl and there is no un-necessary delays. But on both leagues we are always the last team to finish. And on Tuesdays there are a lot of strikes thrown. Maybe you are onto something there about the atmosphere because both leagues do have that relaxed atmosphere - which is how I like to bowl. Life is too short to be serious. So maybe that drags out the games - if that is the side effect then I will take it.

[Bunny]

No reply... Call out unanswered :(

Nothin' but crickets. :confused:

[Bunny]

I don't know how much of it is games/team sizes versus just the "atmosphere" of the league. The Thursday league I bowl in with Bunny...I swear we're the last team done each night...even on the night we bowled against the "BYE" team. Our team is so relaxed and non-serious that I think we spend a lot of time just standing around drinking and eating and people watching.

Also, we don't get a lot of strikes...so that means ya roll twice every frame rather than once...double the time.



We have the best team ever!! I dig my teammates. They totally rock!! Go Michael Bowltonz!!!


I'm lead off this season so it's weird. The only time I make anyone wait is maybe between games. A girl's gotta pee! :o

[Aslan]

A girl's gotta pee! :o

And a teammate has to watch!!

"On weekends, I travel to capital city and watch ladies while they make toilet."

Our team is exceptional. If I could actually turn my game around...with you consistently over 150...and Buddy usually over 160...both with 300 potential...we could DOMINATE this league!

I think I take a long time to ball because it takes longer for the ball to get down the alley if you drop it in the gutter. Couple that with my frequent gin and tonic runs and my strategizing about how I'm gonna pick up the bartender without using the creepy yet obvious line "nice rack".

[Bunny]

And a teammate has to watch!!

"On weekends, I travel to capital city and watch ladies why they make toilet."


Eeeewwwwww. That's gross.

[Zaxmazr]

What..the..heck did this thread turn into lol

[Mike White]

something doesn't add up here Bill?? I went to bowling awards com, like a do on many occasions to check up on Jason, THE REAL DEAL Jason! with 5 sanctioned 300, and now two 800s! But Bill they must have made a huge mistake, It has your name, Bill H Freitas, Sidney Oh, and your ID #1901-2857, also that you are a bronze coach, but NO 300's, no 800s, and your average for the last 6 years around 167???????

If I were you I would call them, they have a phone number, and email address to fix this error! Wow,,, I would be UPSET, if they messed my averages up that bad!!!

Haha 7 months ago I asked bill the same thing. Crickets then too.

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/13726-Three-years-later-I-am-in-a-very-different-place-mentally?p=79208#post79208

[Mike White]

this is an epic thread and sometimes 3 games with 5 guys takes forever. even 3 games with 4 people on saturdays can drag on.

People seem to bowl much slower than years ago. More distractions? I don't know.

I used to bowl in a 6:15 league, 5 man 3 games, then drive across town in time to bowl in a 9:00 scratch league.

[Bunny]

Haha 7 months ago I asked bill the same thing. Crickets then too.

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/13726-Three-years-later-I-am-in-a-very-different-place-mentally?p=79208#post79208


You guys are awesome and crack me up!



Mike, did you end up drilling that tri grip? if so, how did it go?

[Mike White]

You guys are awesome and crack me up!



Mike, did you end up drilling that tri grip? if so, how did it go?

I worked 10 hours Thursday, and only had time to draw a few lines on my own ball, no drilling yet.

There might be a little more delay.
I've ordered a new HV Ovalmatic Jig on Tuesday.
If it is delivered soon I'll be setting that up before continuing work on my own equipment.

[Bunny]

I worked 10 hours Thursday, and only had time to draw a few lines on my own ball, no drilling yet.

There might be a little more delay.
I've ordered a new HV Ovalmatic Jig on Tuesday.
If it is delivered soon I'll be setting that up before continuing work on my own equipment.


No rush. Thanks for the update.

Congrats on the new Jig. :)

[Bunny]

Does your league not use the prior season average or the book average for the first few weeks of league? If not, perhaps your league should institute that rule next time. That helps keep sandbaggers to a minimum.


Spoke with the Manager last night. The desk guy overheard and went, "Who? KB and those guys?" So they know what's going on.

Anyway, the league will implement your suggestion next season! Very Cool!!

Thanks vdubtx for the excellent (and easy) solution!! "You said it Man, nobody f's with the Jesus!" :p


By the way-That team was in last place after the second week. Serves 'em right!! They came up to us afterwards and asked "How many games did you win?" Not, how'd you roll 'em? What a couple DB's. We bowl them next week. I'm totally going to use "Bush League Psych Out" on them and get into their heads!

[Aslan]

There were only 2 players that I can say without a shadow of a doubt DID NOT sandbag in week 1. Bunny and that Tom guy with the dredlocks who coming into last night had the highest average in the league (180 I think).

Everyone else sandbagged at differing levels. Guys like me and a few other guys I was watching...we were "trying"...but if we missed a spare here or there...we didn't really care because it was week 1. Then...other sided of the spectrum...I saw:

- 1 guy walked up and just dropped his ball in the gutter. It didn't "roll" in the gutter...he just walked up and pushed it in the gutter.
- Two ENTIRE TEAMS decided to bowl left-handed (and they are right handed bowlers).
- I watched 1 guy (that Bunny referenced...who carries a 160+ average and last night bowled TWO 200+ games)...bowl at least one frame between his legs.

It was a joke. I mean, I had an excuse. My FIRST league....FIRST time playing at that alley...FIRST game ever on those lanes. So my 112 was pretty much legitimate...AND...better than I bowled last night. :(

I feel..all leagues should use book averages from the previous season going into week 1...unless it's a new bowler to the league. There's virtually no way to sandbag if you do that. If a person was in more than one league...use an average of their averages. Nobody is gonna tank an entire season just to set themselves up for the next season.

But...I feel good about our team's chances. I know it's just for fun...but we came into the night in second place...one game behind the leaders. The leaders got beat by the sandbaggers last night...so we're gonna be in first place. And the sandbaggers had to "stop sanbagging" last night in order to beat that good team...where as we had a BAD night (overall, especially game 3) so their averages skyrocketed while our averages actually went down (Me and Buddy). You and Babs...your averages probably went up...because you guys played amazing, especially in the second game. But those 2 guys...they started out at 150-160 and both through near 600 series...so we'll be getting some decent handicap pins next week despite being the top team (team to beat). And from here on out...all we need to do is take 2 out of 3 games and have more pins at the end. We don't need to take all 4 points...3 out of 4 the rest of the way and we should be solid.

And god forbid...I fix my game...those guys are gonna be pretty pissed if our worst player (me) with a 114 average bowls a 529 series. :cool: But...lets not put our eggs in my basket...because my basket is a friggin abortion right now. But if you and Babs bowl like you did this week...and Buddy bowls like he did LAST week...we're talking 1800+ scratch...at LEAST a 2400 handicap total each week.

[vdubtx]

Spoke with the Manager last night. The desk guy overheard and went, "Who? KB and those guys?" So they know what's going on.

Anyway, the league will implement your suggestion next season! Very Cool!!

Thanks vdubtx for the excellent (and easy) solution!! "You said it Man, nobody f's with the Jesus!" :p


By the way-That team was in last place after the second week. Serves 'em right!! They came up to us afterwards and asked "How many games did you win?" Not, how'd you roll 'em? What a couple DB's. We bowl them next week. I'm totally going to use "Bush League Psych Out" on them and get into their heads!

Cool. Glad could help.

Is the league sanctioned via USBC?

Aslan mentioned in comment below yours that some guys bowling left handed. They can't just do that. They have to have separate average for left hand vs. right and they cannot switch between games. In USBC certified competition where handicap is involved, you must be right-handed or left-handed corresponding to the hand you established your average with and stick with it once a competition begins. A bowler can be allowed to change hands during an event if they are injured.

Seems like your league officers are not real serious(or not sanctioned) or just simply don't care.

[Aslan]

I don't think it's a sanctioned league. It's just a "fun" league...I think. Bunny would know.

[Aslan]

Well...we played the sandbaggers last night....didn't go well.

It sucks...because it was actually a close and very good match between two very good bowling teams. They brought close to their best, we brought close to our best...and it could have went either way. But...they had a nice little handicap built up...in part due to their BS week 1. And it was frustrating and Bunny mentioned it...but they seemed not apologetic at all...they actually bragged that in response to "cheaters never win" that they have 2-3 trophies at home that beg to differ.

I wish we coulda beat them. Even just 3 out of 4 points. Even though it's only week 3, that was essentially for the championship. I think our team is stronger than the rest of the teams...and I think they're team has already played the 2 best teams...so it's clear sailing for them.

Oh well...whatta ya gonna do. I can't say it was "ALL" sandbagging effect. I mean, their 108 average bowler broke 125 twice. I thought my 635 handicap series might be the best this week...then I look over and she's got something like 697. And...our aces (Bunny and Buddy)...got off to a rough start in game 1. Eventually they got back in form...but game 1 we were just a little "off" for some reason. And it seemed like the lanes were just heavy, heavy oil...nobody's balls were hooking much...just a tough start. And it's hard when you lose by 2 pins...as we did in game 2...because you think about every frame...and if you just woulda been an inch this way or that way. I mean, in game 3 I almost picked up a 4-6 split...inches...less than inches. And game 3 the gin started kicking in...and suddenly I wasn't quite as sharp....so despite having a much better game this week (I think I raised my average 10 pins)...I coulda done better as well.

But...it was a fun night...and thats what that league is all about...FUN. And ya know what...we gave a very good team....that came in with a little padded averages...we gave them a run for their money.

[bowlerRob2]

Things are not always as they seem. Here is how our 12 week spring league ended average wise with the two guys I bowl with regularly:

Me: 182
2: 190
3: 204

Here are our averages after week 6 of winter league.

Me: 198
2: 170
3: 188

It's easy to pass judgement just by numbers alone but I can say for sure, those guys are struggling (esp #2). The first week we just sorta joked about me suddenly being the "top dog" and I laughed along with it too. Now I really wonder WTF, but they are definitely NOT sandbagging.

[Aslan]

I don't think what you posted meets the definition of "sandbagging".

182 vs 198??

We're talking about a team with 2 guys that are 150-250 bowlers who bowled like 112....left-handed....and then bragged about it.

New term, "sandbragging"?

[bowlerRob2]

I don't think what you posted meets the definition of "sandbagging".

182 vs 198??

We're talking about a team with 2 guys that are 150-250 bowlers who bowled like 112....left-handed....and then bragged about it.

New term, "sandbragging"?

I was referring to my teammantes #2 and #3 not me. They were afraid to be called sandbaggers and I just said, don't worry just get your game back in order cuz I can't keep this avg up forever LOL

[mjoyce]

The fun league I'm in combats this by giving all new bowlers a 125 averGe for the first 3 weeks. After the third week you get whatever your average is from those first three weeks. All bowlers established I the league carry their average from the prior year. It helps. The first year everyone bowled for average the first week and it was a mess of low average/high handicap. But luckily there are only 6 teams and not really any bagging.

[mike_thomas93]

Oh yeah you know I just realized my status updated to sandbagger ;p

[circlecity]

I never understood why there are sandbaggers. I show up to bowl and try my best and let the chips fall where they may.

[Aslan]

I never understood why there are sandbaggers. I show up to bowl and try my best and let the chips fall where they may.

It's a rare area of agreement and shared aggravation for Iceman and myself.

My theory is that some people are so pathetic and have such a low self worth...that they need to be awesome at something...and can justify cheating. If there's money involved, then it's just simple greed. But even in trophy leagues...guys feel like if they can cheat their way to 1st place, they can brag about how awesome they are.

Also why you see SO many house players throwing 210-220 averages...bowling multiple 300 games...yet they never bowl sport patterns...never go to tournaments. They like being "the man" at their local alley...and they don't want to go bowl against real competition and risk bowling a 155. Their egos are too fragile to risk that.

[circlecity]

It's a rare area of agreement and shared aggravation for Iceman and myself.

If there's money involved, then it's just simple greed.

I think money plays a big part especially in one of those vegas leagues with big money sweepers.