Why am I leaving this spare??

[Aslan]

A common spare I left today (and have been lately) is the:

1-2-4-7-10

I "think" it's the ball just not having the back end reaction it used to. I mean, I can't stand too far left of center and throw at board 10 because the ball won't come back. So I've had to move to where my left foot is just to the left of center...maybe 3-4 boards. And on synthetics, it's even worse because I have to adjust my target by 1-5 boards left.

It's hard because if I move too far right and start throwing straight at the head pin...barely any strikes, lots of spare opportunities, some splits. But if I try to stay left and the ball doesn't react...it hits right of the headpin and I get these dang 1-2-4-7-10 spares which I have just NOT had good luck picking up. I can usually take the 1-2-4-7 out, but I can't get the ball to deflect into the 10 nor can I get any of those pins to move over and knock the 10. Frustrating.

Some anticipated Q&A:
1) is the ball just soaked with oil? Have you cleaned it lately?
Answer: Yes, wipe it after each frame...alcohol wipe after every couple series. Use a 50/50 ethanol/simple green solution after every 6-9 series. I usually give it a hot bath in degreasing detergent every couple weeks.

2) Have you tried to increase revs?
Answer: No...nothing other than making sure my form is good. I'm not a high rev bowler and if I try to put additional revs on my stroke I end up going over the top, my arm goes lateral, and I end up pulling it left.

3) Have you tried to slow the ball speed down?
Answer: Yes. I've cut my backswing by 1/3 on wood lanes and 2/3 on synthetics. It has helped, but I can't cut down the backswing much further or I'm just gonna be dropping the ball over the foul line.

4) Have you tried to adjust the surface of the ball?
Answer: Yes. It started out a very glossy yet tactile finish. As I've washed it 2-3 times...I've also on a couple occasions taken a 1000 grit wet sandpaper to it...just to "matte it up" a little, give it a little more "bite".

5) What ball is it, what is the weight, did it have more reactivity when you first bought it?
Storm Frantic, 15lb, 1500 grit polished, medium oil. And yes, it did have a noticeably greater reactivity on the back end when it was new.

6) How many games on it? Have you had it resurfaced and put in the de-oiling oven at a pro shop?
Answer: Probably about 140-145 games on it. Haven't had it resurfaced or de-oiled yet. Planning on doing that after the second week of Friday leagues...so probably early the week of October 7th.

Thanks!

[dnhoffman]

Not be mean here, but it sounds much more like operator error than equipment failure.

Very hard to say what's going on without seeing video, but if I had to guess, I'd say you're wrist-break and release are probably the culprits.

You can de-oil the ball and that will help the performance a ton, but if you're release isn't right then you're not going to hook the ball. Do you work with a coach?

[Zaxmazr]

Record a game of two of play. This is will more than likely lead to an answer.

[vdubtx]

Have to agree with dnhoffman, operator error. If you are leaving that on a regular basis your ball is going too straight when it gets to the pins. The reaction of the ball has all petered out by the time it makes it to the pins obviously not making it to the pocket and just driving through the pins. You mention you are not a high rev player, but what is your ball speed. You can approximate it, but perhaps you are strong arming it and not letting the ball complete it's roll?

[Aslan]

Not be mean here, but it sounds much more like operator error than equipment failure.

Well that was mean. :mad: Videos posted on the site already; http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15108-Aslan-s-Displays-of-Embarrassment?highlight=aslan


Record a game of two of play. This is will more than likely lead to an answer.

Videos posted on the site already; http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15108-Aslan-s-Displays-of-Embarrassment?highlight=aslan


You mention you are not a high rev player, but what is your ball speed. You can approximate it, but perhaps you are strong arming it and not letting the ball complete it's roll?

ALL those bits of information and he asks for one thing I didn't list!!! ;) Ball speed is roughly 15.4-15.7mph. I'm more comfortable around 16mph, but I've had to dial it back to try and get some reaction from the ball on the back end. On wood lanes, it's probably in the 15.7-16.2mph range but on synthetics it's closer to 14.2-15.4mph.

I might have to get new videos up because those old ones are me trying to do what my coach was showing me..which was a very upright approach and a high loft of the ball. It was meant to keep me from leaning forward over the foul line but unfortunately it wasn't consistent enough for me and I was having trouble with pin carry so I took some of the parts of his instruction (staying upright, follow-through) and added them into my more traditional approach. Maybe during Thursday leagues I can have Bunny shoot 2-6 of my approaches with my new/revised style. Plus those old videos are shot during cosmic abortion bowling so it's like trying to evaluate someone's singing while wearing ear muffs.

[Mudpuppy]

I don't see anything about feet position in your list. I assume you have moved back and forth and left and right as well as adjust feet angle?

[Aslan]

I don't see anything about feet position in your list. I assume you have moved back and forth and left and right as well as adjust feet angle?

At the time of the videos, the coach wanted me more upright so I was standing much closer to the foul line on approach. I now midway between the dots because standing that close was messing with my natural stride.

And I thought I explained the left-right movement...but when the ball was new I was standing (left foot) at about board 30 and aiming at about board 10. The ball would go out and curve back into the pocket. As I've lost that hooking ability...I've moved right to approximately boards 20-25, still aiming at around board 10.

[noeymc]

my guess ur ball is rolling out

[Aslan]

my guess ur ball is rolling out

According to what I read online...it could be that by dulling the surface a little (1000 grit), that can lead to "rolling out". So I tried to combat the ball being soaked in oil by scuffing it a little and now I have a different issue. It was also wood lanes, lower oil...also things that lead to "rolling out".

But...the problem is...the solutions.
1) Polish ball. Works great except now you have the oil soaking in issue.
2) Try to create more revs. Works great except it'll mess with your delivery and hand position and probably cause you to top or pull the ball left.
3) Carry 6 different balls for the various types of lane conditions, odds are one will react better on that particular lane. Works great...but I shouldn't need an "arsenal" to bowl. I'm not going to the PBA World Championships for crying out loud.

Now...what "may" have solved the problem...as you notice if you saw my score update...I was bowling in the 120s, leaving a lot of these 1-2-4-7-10 spares...but I finished with a 181. Suddenly not as many of those spares. The change? More "snap"...a more vertical arm movement...a more natural delivery...more balance. In other words, I "think" I was able to create more revs by simply throwing with a better overall release/twist/follow-through. We'll see on Thursday...but in that last game...even though the ball has lost some reactivity on the back end since I bought it....it did seem to be moving a little more once I got my whole swing/release/follow-through/balance worked out.

[Mudpuppy]

At the time of the videos, the coach wanted me more upright so I was standing much closer to the foul line on approach. I now midway between the dots because standing that close was messing with my natural stride.

And I thought I explained the left-right movement...but when the ball was new I was standing (left foot) at about board 30 and aiming at about board 10. The ball would go out and curve back into the pocket. As I've lost that hooking ability...I've moved right to approximately boards 20-25, still aiming at around board 10.

I missed it - sorry. Sounds to me like very limited and specific movement of your feet - I used to start at the back end of the approach - actually would hang a foot off the back at one house (when I threw a strike someone tried to tell me it didn't count). Then because people complain about everything and I found the super long approach screwed me up because too many steps (and sometimes too many beers) so I played around with close to the foul line and I found the same thing - felt like I had to short step 1 or 2 steps and messed up my release. So I ended up midway as well - but there is 1,000 adjustments within that midway range to make. And outside temperature, humidity, oil patterns, other bowlers lines, barometric pressure and 100 other variables play in - so you really need to adjust, adjust, adjust, adjust, adjust unless you are hitting strike after strike in the perfect spot. And you are right handed? So you moved right - that will move your ball right unless you adjust angle. I am left handed so when I hit light pocket shots I move right to move the ball right for a stronger pocket shot. Tiny adjustments left and right make a big difference. Last night I had 3 light pocket shots for 9 so I moved 1/4 board to the right and it drove clear through the head pin for a split. Next ball I gave a slight angle adjustment and bam there it was. Maybe 1-2 degrees on the angle. Minute tiny adjustments.

[dnhoffman]

According to what I read online...it could be that by dulling the surface a little (1000 grit), that can lead to "rolling out". So I tried to combat the ball being soaked in oil by scuffing it a little and now I have a different issue. It was also wood lanes, lower oil...also things that lead to "rolling out".

But...the problem is...the solutions.
1) Polish ball. Works great except now you have the oil soaking in issue.
2) Try to create more revs. Works great except it'll mess with your delivery and hand position and probably cause you to top or pull the ball left.
3) Carry 6 different balls for the various types of lane conditions, odds are one will react better on that particular lane. Works great...but I shouldn't need an "arsenal" to bowl. I'm not going to the PBA World Championships for crying out loud.

Now...what "may" have solved the problem...as you notice if you saw my score update...I was bowling in the 120s, leaving a lot of these 1-2-4-7-10 spares...but I finished with a 181. Suddenly not as many of those spares. The change? More "snap"...a more vertical arm movement...a more natural delivery...more balance. In other words, I "think" I was able to create more revs by simply throwing with a better overall release/twist/follow-through. We'll see on Thursday...but in that last game...even though the ball has lost some reactivity on the back end since I bought it....it did seem to be moving a little more once I got my whole swing/release/follow-through/balance worked out.

So I watched your videos, and your release is, in my opinion, your real problem. All these. Equipment changes aren't going to help you until your mechanics are sound and repeatable. Let got of the equipment changes because they are distracting you from the real problem.

I don't think your ball is rolling out, I think that most of the time your release is is spinning the ball down lane. Sometimes you have a smoother release where your fingers lift the ball and it comes off clean and the ball goes through skid/hook/roll, like on your strike shot video.

Is your coach certified? Does he/she use video? The release is one of the hardest things to master, because of its subtlety, but once you have it down you won't need a Storm Sync to make a ball move, and you'll understand the subtle differences in equipment.p

Also, ditch the jean shorts ;)

[Aslan]

So I watched your videos, and your release is, in my opinion, your real problem. All these. Equipment changes aren't going to help you until your mechanics are sound and repeatable. Let got of the equipment changes because they are distracting you from the real problem.

I don't think your ball is rolling out, I think that most of the time your release is is spinning the ball down lane. Sometimes you have a smoother release where your fingers lift the ball and it comes off clean and the ball goes through skid/hook/roll, like on your strike shot video.

Is your coach certified? Does he/she use video? The release is one of the hardest things to master, because of its subtlety, but once you have it down you won't need a Storm Sync to make a ball move, and you'll understand the subtle differences in equipment.p

Also, ditch the jean shorts ;)

Again....and I rock the jean shorts so...but whatever...those videos are the "old" approach. I have changed it because I didn't like:
1) The excessive loft.
2) I don't like being that upright and rigid.
3) The shorter approach...I feel like it was too condensed.

Yes the coach is certified. He does use video. For some reason he didn't like me getting lower and my shoulder tilting...he's a big fan of a condensed approach, higher loft, straight up and down approach.

[Bunny]

Again....and I rock the jean shorts so...but whatever...those videos are the "old" approach. I have changed it because I didn't like:
1) The excessive loft.
2) I don't like being that upright and rigid.
3) The shorter approach...I feel like it was too condensed.

Yes the coach is certified. He does use video. For some reason he didn't like me getting lower and my shoulder tilting...he's a big fan of a condensed approach, higher loft, straight up and down approach.


Sorry, but that guy/coach sounds totally retarded. :eek:

He don't make no sense! (Said with a southern drawl.)

My recommendation is to take one private lesson with Mark Baker and go his saturday $10 clinics for tune-ups.

:D

[Aslan]

My recommendation is to take one private lesson with Mark Baker and go his saturday $10 clinics for tune-ups.
:D

Well...not sure I can afford private lessons with him...but I am planning on being there for the $10 lessons Saturday morning!!

[noeymc]

According to what I read online...it could be that by dulling the surface a little (1000 grit), that can lead to "rolling out". So I tried to combat the ball being soaked in oil by scuffing it a little and now I have a different issue. It was also wood lanes, lower oil...also things that lead to "rolling out".

But...the problem is...the solutions.
1) Polish ball. Works great except now you have the oil soaking in issue.
2) Try to create more revs. Works great except it'll mess with your delivery and hand position and probably cause you to top or pull the ball left.
3) Carry 6 different balls for the various types of lane conditions, odds are one will react better on that particular lane. Works great...but I shouldn't need an "arsenal" to bowl. I'm not going to the PBA World Championships for crying out loud.

Now...what "may" have solved the problem...as you notice if you saw my score update...I was bowling in the 120s, leaving a lot of these 1-2-4-7-10 spares...but I finished with a 181. Suddenly not as many of those spares. The change? More "snap"...a more vertical arm movement...a more natural delivery...more balance. In other words, I "think" I was able to create more revs by simply throwing with a better overall release/twist/follow-through. We'll see on Thursday...but in that last game...even though the ball has lost some reactivity on the back end since I bought it....it did seem to be moving a little more once I got my whole swing/release/follow-through/balance worked out.


i carry 5 bowling balls with me lane oil is normally the same but humidity temp what lines the other bowlers all come into play there rev rate your rev rate speed alot goes into this any way i can get a video to see how u bowl and this is going to sound like a dick move but everyone bowls a good game now and then you might have just carried enough that game to leave less spares theres so much that goes into this i wouldn't make any surface changes to your bowling balls id just move your on a house shot u can pretty much play any where but a video would help me a lot in helping you

[Bunny]

Well...not sure I can afford private lessons with him...but I am planning on being there for the $10 lessons Saturday morning!!


Just take 1 private lesson with him.

Then go for Saturday clinic once or twice a month.

Every Saturday can be a bit much if you haven't practiced a lot during the week. (Like me!)

Not sure Mark will be there this Saturday. He hasn't been there the last two weeks. (Maybe back on Oct 2nd?) Hall of Famer Barry Asher will be however. Last week I also got some personal tips from some guy that was a PBA Bowler in 90-92 (and some crazy stories about some famous bowlers back then.)

It was very cool!!!

I know for sure Mark will be back by Friday Oct 4th 'cause I bought a lesson with him for my husband for his Birthday!!

:cool:

[GoodGravy]

Just throwing in my 2 cents-----

I didn't read all of the posting, just to lazy, but I also use a Frantic as my main ball so I can give my experiences using this equipment. What I can say is that the Frantic has a TON of back end on it if you drill it aggressively. Depending on lane conditions, I have used every board from 8-20 as a target to get it to the pocket. My biggest problem is that I get too much hook at the end and the results are either a bunch of splits or hits left of the head pin.

I just say this because the RS2 hybrid cover stock on this ball is a monster and pairs great with the N.O.S weight block. I would suspect that a small tweak on your release or a new drill pattern and your world will open up!

[Aslan]

Just throwing in my 2 cents-----

I didn't read all of the posting, just to lazy, but I also use a Frantic as my main ball so I can give my experiences using this equipment. What I can say is that the Frantic has a TON of back end on it if you drill it aggressively. Depending on lane conditions, I have used every board from 8-20 as a target to get it to the pocket. My biggest problem is that I get too much hook at the end and the results are either a bunch of splits or hits left of the head pin.

I just say this because the RS2 hybrid cover stock on this ball is a monster and pairs great with the N.O.S weight block. I would suspect that a small tweak on your release or a new drill pattern and your world will open up!

I don't know man. I know the ball CAN move. I saw the video online, saw another youtube video, even saw an old asian guy throwing it super slow along the right side of the lane and there was movement. But mine goes straight as an arrow on synthetics with only a slight flare on wood lanes. And the pro I worked with yesterday morning saw the ball and said, "yeah, you need a new ball. That ball isn't going to hook much...you don't really need a spare ball since that one goes so straight."

If I can figure out how to attach a pic, I'll attach a pic of it as far as pin position, etc...

[vdubtx]

Aslan,from watching a couple of your videos again, the way you loft the ball is the reason you are not seeing any reaction of the ball. All it has a chance to do once it lands is skids and struggle to get into a roll.

Try delivering the ball closer to the foul line. Can still loft a bit if more comfortable, but maybe a loft of 2' or so.

Also, your ball is filthy. Could be too much oil has soaked into it and could use a Rejuventor session in the pro shop.

[Aslan]

@vdub

I've been working on that. My loft isn't that high anymore. But it's still higher than average. As I said in a previous thread...I struggle releasing it low and earlier because it tends to go right or left. The higher loft forces me to keep my shoulders straight....and the ball goes straight.

On wood lanes, I can loft it and still get it to hook back into the pocket. On synthetics I can't. It's a harder, slicker surface and like you pointed out, I can't get the ball to start rotating enough to get a hook at the end.

The "dilemma" is...I can't seem to get it to hook releasing earlier either. And multiple people have told me that ball just doesn't have the reaction to move much on synthetic surfaces. So...if I'm going to throw a straight ball....regardless of where I release it...does it matter where I release it? One of my coaching sessions the guy said, "as long as your arm is moving in a straight line/arc...the ball will hit the same target no matter where you release it." So if thats true...a high loft may actually be better.

But...still working on it. On synthetics I'm trying to get down more and release it sooner...but trying as hard as I can to keep my shoulders straight. So far, not having much success...but a work in progress. And I AM getting it rejuvinated/resurfaced this coming weekend. The picture makes it look darker than it really is...but it's overdue for reconditioning.

[dnhoffman]

Look man, I'm gonna try to be blunt with you here, because you keep going back to the same tune.

It is NOT an equipment issue, has nothing to do with synthetics vs wood.

Your high loft is NOT better, people who talk about using loft as a compensation tool are, no offense, far ahead of you in mechanics, technique, experience, and skill.

You asked for opinions and you keep going back to equipment. At first I thought you might have a bad coach but if you're half as stubborn in person as you are in this thread I'd bet you're not listening to him/her.

Rejuving your ball will help, but the way you're throwing that ball it will not consistently make it into its roll.

[classygranny]

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH DEREK ON THIS ONE!

The other way to look at this is - you keep saying you are changing your approach, swing, loft, release, etc between woods and synthetics. Now keep in mind that I haven't had the pleasure of bowling on wood in many, many years, but I do watch a lot of bowling and work with a touring pro/coach. I am POSITIVE that there is no pro or coach that is going to say to change your form to bowl on one or the other. The line you are playing and perhaps the release can be changed for the lane condition, but the way you get to the foul line should be as consistent as possible whether you are bowling on wood, synthetic, or on your back porch. Sounds to me like you need to find an approach and posting position where your timing is good and practice that until you maintain the consistency to work on the other areas of your bowling. You can do lots of shadow bowling anytime, anywhere....practice, practice, practice.

Oh, and by the way....if you still think it's equipment related...go get the darn ball de-oiled like many have suggested and prove to yourself it's not the ball - and quit crying about equipment!

[Hammer]

First get your ball brought back to OUT OF BOX FINISH which will make it like new. To me it sounds like release issues. One thing might be that when you swing your ball on your approach you have to let it swing back with it's own weight with the help of gravity and no arm muscle. On the forward swing let gravity swing the ball forward and not tensing up your arm muscle to muscle it forward. This is a real killer of letting the ball work like it is supposed to. Also don't grip the ball hard with your fingers and thumb, use a relaxed grip. At release if your are letting your hand go up the side of the ball to get revs you won't get revs but something called a spinner. At release your hand should be behind the ball and when your thumb comes out your hand and fingers only turn one or two inches to get revs.
The weight of the ball pulling off your finger tips is what puts revs on the ball Plus when you swing through the release area if your ball
is not close to your sliding ankle you will have problems with pulled shots and lack of revs. A video you can pull up on youtube is called
Analysis of the modern 10-pin bowling swing and release by Dean Champ. You will see what a swing and release should be. It involves the pro bowlers but at least you can see what you should strive forin your practice. At release remember that the thumb comes out first
then all of the balls weight goes onto your finger tips and pulls off to give you revs. Leave your fingertips bent like they are when you put them into your ball. Never straighten them to let the ball come off your hand because then you can wave goodbye to any revs you where looking for. Good luck to your quest for good pocket hits.

[Aslan]

I'd say my swing is most like Dave Ferraro's or Mark Roth's but I try to emulate Walter Ray. Here's Ferraro and WRW bowling against each other (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC9jnsZqmIo).

The old skool approach to a swing is simply the pendulum...no need to muscle it backwards or forwards. However, as you watch the various pro players, you'll see that some have extreme backswings (like a Rhino Page) and many add strength to their downswing.

I would say that I add minimal backswing. I start with the ball rather high and as Barry Asher recommended...I've started to push the ball out rather than drop it. The coach I worked with was a proponent of dropping it...but both Asher and Earl Anthony (in his tutorial video) are advocates of pushing the ball outwards which creates that pendulum.

I then add quite a bit of momentum on the forward swing. Not so much trying to "fire it" down the lane...but more just trying to get a "snap" of the wrist. I've tried to get rid of that forward momentum/snap...but I tend to have huge accuracy problems if I drop the ball short or try to "lay it down gently".