Too hard to join a league... : (

[Aslan]

As I try to figure out some of the reasons for the decline in bowling...one thing out there is regarding the blue collar to white collar thing. And related to that, the loss of the old church leagues and work leagues. Back then everyone had the same shirt with their name on it...sponsored by their work or church usually.

Nowadays ya don't see that as much. Budgets are tighter...with churches as well as companies. But the other thing is, it's hard to find 4-5 people to play. I am trying to form a team where I work...I got 3 other people interested...but none of em know how to bowl and one lives near hollywood while the rest of live near Anaheim...so thats not gonna work.

I'm super frustrated today...because I've contacted my bowling alley FIVE times about joining a Friday league...and it's up in the air...because I'm just a "guy"...I don't have a team...so they have to find a team with an opening.

First Contact: I'm interested in being a floater, I don't have a team.
Them: NO PROBLEM...we'll get you on a team...what day do you want to play?

Second Contact: Fridays looks good, put me down for that one.
Them: Great! We're getting the league together and I definitely have you down on the list so we'll be in touch.

Third Contact: Haven't heard anything lately and the league starts later this week, just wondering when to get there, what team I'm on, etc...
Them: ....

Fourth Contact: League is supposed to start tomorrow but I still haven't heard anything and I'm wondering what time I should be there and what I should do. Since I haven't heard from you, I'll send a message via the website in case you''re ill or out of town.
Them:.....

Fifth Contact: I sent a message to *** but I haven't heard back and since the league starts tomorrow I kinda need to know what I need to do or if I'm not in the league or what.
Them:....Sorry. I'm at sweeps in Laughlin with a couple other leagues this weekend. I let my manager know to get you established and we'll find you a team later.

So WTF does that mean?? So I show up at 6PM and just walk around in a circle hoping there's an announcement or something?? Then I bowl by myself like a weirdo? And why does it take a WEEK to return my friggin email? Early on it was all a go...everything was great...welcome to the league...etc... Then nothing.

And to tie it in to my initial sentence...thats one of the hard things about bowling is trying to find a "team". You gotta find 3-5 other people...all willing to show up once a week on that day. It's like bowling teams are small enough that they tend to get formed independently (rather than random assignment)...yet large enough that its hard to put a team together.

Frustrated with my game yesterday. Frustrated with this new league today. :mad:

[Bunny]

Forget Concourse. There's a fun league starting next week at your favorite lanes Carter. I know you're wanting to get into a "serious" league. I totally understand. I'm looking at joining a scratch league next season. Timing is tough too. Most of the fall leagues have started already.

The Tuesday night league is kind of like Thursday but you get money back at the end. Sweet! The main thing I like is that they're short leagues. I don't have to commit to half a year. They're going with 4 person teams this season as opposed to 2, so there will be teams looking for people. I'm going Tuesday by myself to see what happens.

I like the Tuesday and Thursday schedule. I get a day off in between and I don't have to wait a whole week to bowl league.

Come on down if you like. You'll know at least one person and maybe we can be teammates! :)

It's a 7pm league the first meeting is at 6pm.

[Aslan]

The Tuesday night league is kind of like Thursday but you get money back at the end. Sweet! The main thing I like is that they're short leagues. I don't have to commit to half a year. They're going with 4 person teams this season as opposed to 2, so there will be teams looking for people. I'm going Tuesday by myself to see what happens.

Yeah, but isn't that "no tap"? I know it's hard to imagine this given my astronomical 114 average and stellar 319 Series yesterday...but I think I'm too advanced to bowl no tap. Don't get me wrong....it aint showin...at ALL right now. But I don't want to bowl no tap.

Eventually, I think I'm probably going to do 2-3 leagues, and probably most or all at Carter. I like their practice rates and free games. But I want at least one league that is sancitoned and sweeps in either Vegas or Laughlin. I've never been to Vegas or Laughlin so it gives me an excuse to finally go. And if I can turn things around...might wins some money to pay for the trip.

Starting mid December I'm gonna only be able to do one league...until I get some stuff straightened out with the ex. But hopefully by the end of next year I'll be able to do 2-3 leagues. At least one "fun" one and at least one "serious/sanctioned/sweeps" one.

I'll probably see you Saturday and we'll see how tonight goes. If it's stupid I might try your Tuesday idea. I tried to go to Carter Lanes to get league info...but one knock on Carter....the AMF website is stupid. I can't find a link to "leagues" anywhere on the site. eClubs and MClubs and birthday parties and food drinks and hours of operation...no league link. There was some link I saw last week to click on to have them call you about leagues forming, but I couldn't find it today. Took me 5 minutes just to get directed from the AMF site to the Carter site...because if you google Carter Lanes AMF...and click it, it goes to amf.com. Then they want you location to find you a bowling center...even though I already KNOW the bowling center I'm trying to go to...ughhhh!! Stupid technology.

Oh...and on Sunday I thought I'd swing by and practice...they were actually FULL on Sunday. I fortunately called ahead and the manager said there wouldn't be an open lane for a couple hours. I mean, it's good they're busy...but dang...that only happened to me once at Concourse and that was like 8:30PM on a Tuesday or Thursday...when they had two leagues going and two corporate events.

[DLP]

That's really a shame and pretty much the exact opposite of my experience.

We started bowling regularly in May... by June we were invited onto a short 8 wk league (July/August) by the general manager. She set us up with the house league secretary who got us paired up with another couple to make a 4 man team.

We talked to her when we decided to do the Wed night mixed league and she set us up with a group of three other people.

We've never had issues finding a group as there are always others who are short for an overall team and they've always grouped us up with great people :)

[Bunny]

Yeah, but isn't that "no tap"? I know it's hard to imagine this given my astronomical 114 average and stellar 319 Series yesterday...but I think I'm too advanced to bowl no tap. Don't get me wrong....it aint showin...at ALL right now. But I don't want to bowl no tap.

Eventually, I think I'm probably going to do 2-3 leagues, and probably most or all at Carter. I like their practice rates and free games. But I want at least one league that is sancitoned and sweeps in either Vegas or Laughlin. I've never been to Vegas or Laughlin so it gives me an excuse to finally go. And if I can turn things around...might wins some money to pay for the trip.

Starting mid December I'm gonna only be able to do one league...until I get some stuff straightened out with the ex. But hopefully by the end of next year I'll be able to do 2-3 leagues. At least one "fun" one and at least one "serious/sanctioned/sweeps" one.

I'll probably see you Saturday and we'll see how tonight goes. If it's stupid I might try your Tuesday idea. I tried to go to Carter Lanes to get league info...but one knock on Carter....the AMF website is stupid. I can't find a link to "leagues" anywhere on the site. eClubs and MClubs and birthday parties and food drinks and hours of operation...no league link. There was some link I saw last week to click on to have them call you about leagues forming, but I couldn't find it today. Took me 5 minutes just to get directed from the AMF site to the Carter site...because if you google Carter Lanes AMF...and click it, it goes to amf.com. Then they want you location to find you a bowling center...even though I already KNOW the bowling center I'm trying to go to...ughhhh!! Stupid technology.

Oh...and on Sunday I thought I'd swing by and practice...they were actually FULL on Sunday. I fortunately called ahead and the manager said there wouldn't be an open lane for a couple hours. I mean, it's good they're busy...but dang...that only happened to me once at Concourse and that was like 8:30PM on a Tuesday or Thursday...when they had two leagues going and two corporate events.


We had some pretty awesome bowlers last time believe it or not.

Here's the link to their leagues. We started a week late on Thursday, same for Tuesday, not sure about the other leagues.

http://amf.com/carterlanes/leagues/bowling-leagues


Check out the bowling news they have a lot of info on upcoming leagues and specialty leagues where they bowl different oil patterns, stuff like that.

On Saturdays, usually the first four lanes of the clinic are oiled in a sport pattern. So that's cool.



It's a bit daunting. At one point we had a calendar with the starting dates/times for all the leagues we were interested in at different alleys. That's the only way we could keep track.

Good Luck!

[noeymc]

most leagues will let you join late

[Aslan]

It worked out well. I got there and the guy was waiting for me. He put me on a team with 2 others that only had 2 players. Everything will make more sense next week once a lot of the teams get back from sweeps in Laughlin.

[noeymc]

glad u got to join a league =D

[Bunny]

We had some pretty awesome bowlers last time believe it or not.




Hugo Chavez Jr. bowled a 300 last week at Carter and was in the Tues night no tap last season.

My teammate and I beat him and his Dad, Hugo Sr. when we bowled against them. My 70+ year old partner (210 scratch average) beat Junior scratch.

It was Awesome! The old guy was so stoked!! It's one of the best times I've had bowling seeing the guy so happy.

[Aslan]

Hugo Chavez Jr. bowled a 300 last week at Carter and was in the Tues night no tap last season.

My teammate and I beat him and his Dad, Hugo Sr. when we bowled against them. My 70+ year old partner (210 average) beat Junior scratch.

It was Awesome! The old guy was so stoked!! It's one of the best times I've had bowling seeing the guy so happy.

That sounds awesome!!!

[Perrin]

No tap leagues are a blast. make for a fun time.

just hav to make sure you still proctice 1 pin spares for regular league :)

[Zaxmazr]

No tap leagues are a blast. make for a fun time.

just hav to make sure you still proctice 1 pin spares for regular league :)

Dang, if my league was a no tap league, there would be a TON of 300s.

I mean, every week in my current league, there are at least a couple perfect games. Crazy!

[Aslan]

I mean, every week in my current league, there are at least a couple perfect games. Crazy!

That seems like a lot for one league at one alley. I might be wrong though. The Free Press used to publish 300 games in the Detroit area each week. And I think it ranged from 1-5 to 30-40 per week. But that seems high as well.

For some reason I thought that in the modern era with easier lane conditions and stronger equipment that bowling alleys tended to have 2/month (300 games). Thats 12 months per year...6400 bowling alleys in the US...thats over 150,000 (300) games per year. For some reason, I thought it was closer to 13,000/year. And if you're saying your one LEAGUE has 2/week...thats 104/year just for one league. If you have 6 leagues going...and lets say 3 of them are sanctioned/decent competition as I'm sure your's is...thats over 300 perfect games per year for that one alley. If every alley had that same situation, thats just shy of 2 million perfect games per year. And thats gotta be wrong.

Does anyone know any of those kinda statistics? I looked on the USBC site, but I couldn't find anything. Wikipedia had some historical numbers from the 60s, 70s, 80s....but I didn't see anything current. I know the 6393 (number of alleys) is close to correct...but I can't find decent stats on 300 games per year, state, alley, etc... Does anyone else that has been doing leagues for quite some time have even a "feel" for it in terms of how many have happened at your alleys over the years? Curious. Does 13,000 sound more right? Or 2/month (150,000/year)? Or is what Zax is witnessing (2.0 million/year) more likely?

[JaMau24]

That seems like a lot for one league at one alley. I might be wrong though. The Free Press used to publish 300 games in the Detroit area each week. And I think it ranged from 1-5 to 30-40 per week. But that seems high as well.

For some reason I thought that in the modern era with easier lane conditions and stronger equipment that bowling alleys tended to have 2/month (300 games). Thats 12 months per year...6400 bowling alleys in the US...thats over 150,000 (300) games per year. For some reason, I thought it was closer to 13,000/year. And if you're saying your one LEAGUE has 2/week...thats 104/year just for one league. If you have 6 leagues going...and lets say 3 of them are sanctioned/decent competition as I'm sure your's is...thats over 300 perfect games per year for that one alley. If every alley had that same situation, thats just shy of 2 million perfect games per year. And thats gotta be wrong.

Does anyone know any of those kinda statistics? I looked on the USBC site, but I couldn't find anything. Wikipedia had some historical numbers from the 60s, 70s, 80s....but I didn't see anything current. I know the 6393 (number of alleys) is close to correct...but I can't find decent stats on 300 games per year, state, alley, etc... Does anyone else that has been doing leagues for quite some time have even a "feel" for it in terms of how many have happened at your alleys over the years? Curious. Does 13,000 sound more right? Or 2/month (150,000/year)? Or is what Zax is witnessing (2.0 million/year) more likely?

Aslan, I think you drastically over-estimate how easy it is for a great bowler to bowl a 300. I understand why you do, but just know, when you reach a certain level, bowling on a house pattern with equipment that continues to get better is easy. A lot of the time, what dictates a 300 or not for said bowlers is whether or not they get robbed and leave a corner pin. I just didn't like your comment a few days ago saying when someone says they bowled a high series or high game you automatically assume it's a lie. I believe everyone on here, including myself and excluding one other guy we all know of by now, tell the truth. For you to just say, "Wow, that series is too high, can't be true" or "wow, they bowled multiple 300's in x amount of time!? no way" is rather insulting.

I don't claim to be the best bowler in the world. In fact, I'm far from it. As someone who just started bowling again in December 2011, and who spent almost every other day in the bowling alley trying to perfect my game, I know the hard work I put in. At the time I started bowling again (after a 5 year break), I was averaging about 206, and I had never been that good in my life prior to that point. After practicing all that time, it raised to 220-225ish just in half a year. This last summer league I averaged about 230, and now 15 games into this winter league (which is still VERY early and my average will likely go down) I'm averaging 244. So when I say I've bowled ten 300's (5 sanctioned, 5 practice) and five 800's (3 sanctioned, 2 practice) since December 2011, I'd like for the people, including you, to not just assume it's a lie. I could post my USBC number, I could post my trophies, rings, etc, but why do I have to prove myself? Still, if you insist, I gladly will post everything. In fact, I believe I already have posted one of my rings on here at some point. The point of that wasn't to list my accolades and brag, not at all. I just want you to understand how quickly it can be for some people to learn to bowl well, if they put in the time.

What I'm trying to say is, it's just not as hard as you think. Me and MICHAEL bowled in a summer league this year with a bunch of high rollers. On ONE NIGHT, we had five 300's and three 800's rolled on the league. On any other week, you could expect at least one 300 from someone in the league, but obviously not every week. Just don't write people off as liars, it's a bad character trait. If you suspect they are lying, maybe politely ask if you can see proof.

[Aslan]

Is it possible anymore to just have a discussion and answer questions without people getting offended for one reason or another?? I mean, for crying out loud!!

I didn't call ANYONE a liar...I could repost the thread if you'd like...which is right there. I MERELY ASKED how common people think a 300 game is. It was simply a question. It's simply mathematics. For crying out loud...enough already. According to extrapolations based on what I thought, what I saw in the newspaper, and what Zax posted....there could be anywhere from 13,000 to 150,000 to 2 million 300 games bowled each year. For roughly 2-5 million sanctioned bowlers. I'm just asking for an opinion on...from you vast experience...what you think that number might be. Is that a crime? Is it so so very hard to just give an honest opinion without attacking someone? Is there any question I AM allowed to ask in this forum that won't spark a personal insult/attack?

I say I don't like 2-handed bowling...attacked.
I post about my struggles with my game recently...attacked.
I ask about PBA bowlers people tend to emulate...attacked.
I ask how common a 300 game is these days...attacked.

You say you're Michel's bowling buddy...Michel is the one that called out a guy for lieing about his average and accomplishments. Go rant about how you don't like your accolades questioned to him...not me. I never questioned your skills. I merely stated that on the internet I assume most people embellish or lie. I don't. I guess I should...since posting my honest average got me mocked in a couple threads...but I don't see the point in it.

Like I said in the last thread...for the sake of the forum...and to honer a request made by a moderator already...if you really, really want to attack me...please do...but please do it via PM. I don't care....I really, really don't. I can give as well as I get. But this public bullying is getting nauseating. Are we giving away a free ball to people who contribute to bowling discussions...or to the forum member who can come up with the most ways to attack Aslan in a week??

All you had to do was say, "I think 300s are quite common. My alley sees 6/week x 52 weeks...probably over 300 per year...6400 alleys...I think Zax's experience holds true and there are roughly just under 2 million per year." Look how easy that was! It was a valuable opinion...by an experienced bowler...and it was on topic...and there was no hidden insults or "jabs". Totally civil. Come on people...play nice!!

[JaMau24]

Aslan, please, don't play the victim man. I didn't and I'm not attacking you personally. I was merely pointing out that great scores are obviously more common than you think. I also let you know I thought it was wrong how you just assume peoples good scores are phony.

This is from you:

"On the other hand...I firmly believe that literally 80% of the scores people post on here are made up. Far too many multiple 300, 900 series, and "last night I bowled 289-246-276"s. I mean, either this site is a place for the most elite bowlers in the United States to congregate or we got quite a bit of "fishing stories". So as to what you said e-tank...I just assume most of them are lies and move past it."

You say you didn't call anyone a liar.. Yeah, not directly, but what does this insinuate? That a lot of us are liars, right?

and

"I think, and Iceman can speak for himself obviously, but I think your response touched on a few things that beneath the surface of the frustration. Things that you are used to, that younger members may be used to which is the whole online universe. To young people, the internet is like a giant game of Sims...where you can be whoever you want and say whatever you want and you'll never have to answer for it.

You said you don't do it because you have nothing to gain from it. But remember, many people with small lives or who are unhappy with themselves...they NEED some outlet where they can feel loved, adored, important, etc... As sad as that sounds...the internet is full of people who DO need to come in forums like this and claim they threw 7 300 games and have a 215 average...because they WANT others to think they're important...because in real life they aren't."


This goes back to the fact that you think it's some sort of crazy, impossible feat to have seven 300's and a 215 average. Those scores aren't that hard for great bowlers, especially over a long period of time. You don't have to be "elite". Again, you know what I've done in my short career at the age of 24, but trust me, I don't at all consider myself "elite".

Have people lied on this site? I'm sure they have. Do people continue to lie? Possibly, I don't know.

That being said, for you to just generalize anyone that posts good scores frequently as "liars" and that it is a "fishing story" because you can't see why good bowlers would want to join in on the discussion on this site, is just ridiculous. There has been at least one occurrence of someone making up their scores, but you shouldn't just assume everyone else is too because they have ridiculous averages or bowl crazy high games. It just isn't fair to everyone else, and as I said, it's insulting.

If you "firmly believe that literally 80% of the scores people post on here are made up." why would you want to even be around all of us?

Bottom line, I believe you should give everyone the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming it's bologna. If you have your doubts, ask for proof. No one has given you any reason to believe they are lying except for one person.

Again, don't act like I'm attacking you personally, because I'm not. I just want you to recognize some of the things you said, and realize how insulting it is for people that do have high averages on this site and do bowl big games.


To the MOD - There is no reason to lock this thread. No one is getting personal. I haven't, and I won't.

[bowl1820]

To the MOD - There is no reason to lock this thread. No one is getting personal. I haven't, and I won't.

A few seasons back on the mens league here (32 , 5 man teams), they had 7 -300 games, a 166 ave. guy had a 960 something handicap series and I think there 2-800 series And that was all on the first night of the league! over half of that league had a 200+ ave.

The next week I think there was like 4-300's, and I'd say at least half of those 300's were shot by bowlers who never shot one before.

[Aslan]

Aslan, please, don't play the victim man.

Hey man...like I said, if people have a problem, please feel free to PM. I'm just trying to be sympathetic to the rest of the forum and the moderators. You probably got the worst of my "wrath" just because this was literally the 4th or 5th thread where a handful of people took it right off topic and made it personal. I was asking about opinions on scores...not your opinion of my view of the internet.

I stand by my previous comments, including supporting your fellow bowler friend Iceman that it's pretty easy to back things up with the USBC ID number in your signature...and I'll leave it at that.

It sounds like bowl1820 is in agreement...I guess 300 games, 800 series, and 900 series are far more common than I thought. I still don't think the total each year is 150,000 to 2 million. I haven't seen any stats to that effect. But like I asked, if anyone knows of a place that has those stats...please share.

[classygranny]

That seems like a lot for one league at one alley. I might be wrong though. The Free Press used to publish 300 games in the Detroit area each week. And I think it ranged from 1-5 to 30-40 per week. But that seems high as well.

For some reason I thought that in the modern era with easier lane conditions and stronger equipment that bowling alleys tended to have 2/month (300 games). Thats 12 months per year...6400 bowling alleys in the US...thats over 150,000 (300) games per year. For some reason, I thought it was closer to 13,000/year. And if you're saying your one LEAGUE has 2/week...thats 104/year just for one league. If you have 6 leagues going...and lets say 3 of them are sanctioned/decent competition as I'm sure your's is...thats over 300 perfect games per year for that one alley. If every alley had that same situation, thats just shy of 2 million perfect games per year. And thats gotta be wrong.

Does anyone know any of those kinda statistics? I looked on the USBC site, but I couldn't find anything. Wikipedia had some historical numbers from the 60s, 70s, 80s....but I didn't see anything current. I know the 6393 (number of alleys) is close to correct...but I can't find decent stats on 300 games per year, state, alley, etc... Does anyone else that has been doing leagues for quite some time have even a "feel" for it in terms of how many have happened at your alleys over the years? Curious. Does 13,000 sound more right? Or 2/month (150,000/year)? Or is what Zax is witnessing (2.0 million/year) more likely?

This article is a few years old, but it has some of the numbers you are looking for....

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/jan/21/for-some-bowling-300-is-way-too-easy/

[Perrin]

The two houses I bowl in have probably a couple dozen a year each. not counting people that bowl more than 1.

800's are less frequent but still happen relatively often.

I don't know know any 900 series ever being bowled here :)

[vdubtx]

My Tuesday night league has had 7 300's this year through 5 weeks of bowling. 1 800, and several others very close to the 800 mark. I would expect that the league would have upwards of 30-40 300's and a half dozen 800's by the time the season is done.

[Aslan]

This article is a few years old, but it has some of the numbers you are looking for....

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/jan/21/for-some-bowling-300-is-way-too-easy/

That was actually the article I read where I got my initial numbers. The problem is, that data is a decade old and given vdub, Zax, 1820, et al's accounts...way, way, way lower than what we're seeing today.

According to that article, 2002-2003 (1 decade ago), there were 43,812 sanctioned perfect games in that year...for around 1.8 million registered bowlers at 6400 centers in the United States. Thats 7 per year per alley. And, if we're looking at it as each perfect game is a different player (conservative of course)...thats roughly 2.5% of registered bowlers bowl a perfect game.

Now, in that article...they are saying that THOSE numbers are absurd when you compare it to 1979-1980 when there were 5,373 bowled nationally. And, back then there were MORE registerred bowlers (4.8 million). Doing the math....0.1% of registered bowlers bowled a 300 game in 1979-1980 (again, conservative number as it assumes each 300 was a different bowler). That means, in 79-80, with MORE bowling centers and more than twice as many bowlers...there was less than 1 perfect game per bowling alley per year.

So...here's the summary based on the numbers "today" extrapolating what the consensus is:

1979-80: 5373 perfect games/year (less than 1 per bowling alley per year)
1989-90: 12,766 perfect games/year (less than 2 per bowling alley per year)
1999-2000: 39,470 perfect games/year (around 6 per bowling alley per year)
2002-03: 43,812 perfect games/year (around 7 per bowling alley per year)
2012-13: 153,600 to 1,830,400 per year (see below for individual estimates) (24-286 per alley per year)

Zax's (2 per week): Extrapolates out to 665,600 perfect games per year (around 104 per alley per year)
JauMau24 (1 per week in any given league): Extrapolates out to 332,800 perfect games per year (around 52 per alley per year)
Bowl1820 (4-7 per week): Extrapolates out to 1,830,400 perfect games per year (around 286 per alley per year)
Perrrin (24/year per alley): Extrapolates out to 153,600 perfect games per year (24/alley)
vDub (35/year): Extrapolates out to 224,000 perfect games per year (35/alley)

And those are CONSERVATIVE estimates assuming each alley has only one, good league. Obviously each alley is going to have 3-14 leagues runnning at any given time. However...the number is also going to be liberal given that the people posting here (except me) likely bowl in above average or scratch leagues with far better bowlers than an average "pizza league".

Am I the only one that is kinda disappointed in that trend? I mean, assuming those numbers are accurate...to put it in perspective...between 1895-2000 there were 350,858 perfect games over 105 years. Between 2000-2006 there were 279,561 (in 6 years). Even if we use the most conservative number of our sample population...that number today is 307,200 every 2 years. Far, far less bowlers...far less alleys...yet more 300 games than the 6-year span between 2000-2006 and nearly as many as the first 105 years of bowling history.

That makes me sad. Not only because it seems like it's easier to do and what that means in the "big picture"...but now I feel even $*&%ier that I've never bowled one!! :(

[Aslan]

And just as a sidenote....

I will NEVER say bowling a 300 is too easy. Even if I don't like those numbers...even if I feel a person who really shouldn't be able to but does it and it's more ball than talent...I personally don't feel ANYONE who has never bowled a 300 should be able to say it's "too easy". The numbers are what they are...a reasonable deduction can be made...but my personal belief is that the only people who should be able to answer that question are those who are in that club. It's a "membership benefit".

I mean, my goal each time I bowl is a clean game. And I've only ever done that once. So...no matter how obvious the numbers are...I won't say those words. BUT...if I ever do bowl one...then I get to comment.

[BDOG10]

Asian, Hey man keep your head up man you will get that 300 one day. If that is what you want to do than keep that goal in your sites. Keep bowling and practicing and you will get there man.. I believe in you.

If I may add some other information to this discussion that at times has gone astray. We must understand several things here when we look at the national average of 300 per year. The average league bowler whom you note, bowling multiple 300 games spends these men and women spend a great deal of time working on there game, and also mastering his/her skill simply bowling multiple times each week in league as well as practicing. Please understand to the credit of some blowers they have been bowling on more challenging oil patterns as well. With this said, the typical house shot is much easier plus forgiving and because of the already growing experience in these bowlers whom have bowled on challenging oil patterns, faced tough tournament conditions, and practiced many times a week have a better understanding of there equipment and the lane condition of the house they usually bowl in.

In closing we must also understand on the bowling centers perspective that due to the better equipment that we have at our disposal at this time in age, and the bowling centers strive to keep bowlers in league play it has become more and more important that the shot stays much easier to give novice bowlers a chance to score higher to keep these bowlers interested in returning to the bowling centers. In return the bowlers whom wish to seek a more challenging oil pattern will normally only bowl in a sports shot league in this case the average will be lower and the overall 300 drop dramatically in number as well.

Keep your head up man thanks for your time.

[bowl1820]

Aslan 40-50,000 would be a fair estimate of the number of 300's in the country. But it might be a little higher Imo

Doing extrapolations you have to realize they are just estimates and your basing them on a small data sample and a rate of occurance thats taking place at one place or at one time. And those rates might not be constant and/or are not the same at all alleys or all leagues. Which will give you some inaccurate numbers.

Like when I said we had 7 300's in one night, you can't get a good estimate for the number of 300's for the country just based on that sample. That rate is not maintained through the whole season.

Also there are areas where scoring is higher and you have lots of honor scores vs areas where scoring is always lower. So you can't base your estimates just on one or the other you wont get a good accurate estimate.

[Aslan]

Aslan 40-50,000 would be a fair estimate of the number of 300's in the country. But it might be a little higher Imo


Well, maybe I'll write to the USBC and see what they say. In this age of email and websites...who knows? Maybe they'll reply.

I know the sample size we have here is relatively low...but if you have 5 guys/gals saying they see 2 per week or 1 per week or 35/year...and bowling lanes are "supposed to be" similar in length, house patterns, most are synthetic...there really shouldn't be much difference alley to alley.

One other contributer, although I think minor compared to the equipment issue, is that back in the day...when a 300 was rare...the USBC sould shut down that lane, have the 300 bowler send his/her ball in for measurements, and they'd inspect the lane before officially recognizing the accomplishment. I don't remember when they stopped doing it.

It's just sad that it went from being such a badge of honor...like a hole in one in golf...and now it's something that is happening so often we can't even count how many times it actually happens.

[JaMau24]

It's just sad that it went from being such a badge of honor...like a hole in one in golf...and now it's something that is happening so often we can't even count how many times it actually happens.

and so often that the USBC will only give one (more) ring in your lifetime from here on out...

[Aslan]

and so often that the USBC will only give one (more) ring in your lifetime from here on out...


OMG!! It's funny that you mentioned the ring! I was actually going to ask if they still do that!! So they still give out rings? I was going to ask but then got wrapped up in the stats/numbers (because I'm a dork) and forgot.

Also...I know theres a lot of ole timers on here...youth challenged if you will...does anybody remember bowling back in the 60s/70s? Do you notice the difference in the way a 300 is treated now versus then? Any interesting stories? How many do you remember back then per alley? I didn't start bowling till the 80s...but only casually; so I don't really remember.

[billf]

Here's something to mess up your numbers. We had four 300s last season, two by the same bowler. This season, one so far. The twenty previous 300s have been thrown by a total of four bowlers.

[bowl1820]

Well, maybe I'll write to the USBC and see what they say. In this age of email and websites...who knows? Maybe they'll reply.
They should reply, the info is on the website it's just hard finding stuff on the site.


I know the sample size we have here is relatively low...but if you have 5 guys/gals saying they see 2 per week or 1 per week or 35/year...and bowling lanes are "supposed to be" similar in length, house patterns, most are synthetic...there really shouldn't be much difference alley to alley.

Alley's are not even remotely the same! The lanes in one house are not even the same from one end of the house to the other! They might have the same general spec's, but they don't play the same. A lot has to do with the topographical conditions of bowling lanes, the weather etc.

here's a article with just a little info: Topography: What does it mean.
http://www.kegel.net/V3/ArticleDetails.aspx?ID=51

The same lanes won't play exactly the same from night to night, let alone week to week. Houses near the coasts score differently than those that are more in the middle of the country (one scores higher than the other, I don't remember which way it went.).


One other contributor, although I think minor compared to the equipment issue, is that back in the day...when a 300 was rare...the USBC would shut down that lane, have the 300 bowler send his/her ball in for measurements, and they'd inspect the lane before officially recognizing the accomplishment. I don't remember when they stopped doing it.

They stopped doing it quite awhile back, because there were so many 300's being shot, it got to be too much trouble and expense.


It's just sad that it went from being such a badge of honor...like a hole in one in golf...and now it's something that is happening so often we can't even count how many times it actually happens.

It's still a badge of honor, Just ask someone who just shot one for the first time. While there are a lot of bowlers who have multiple 300's, there a lot more who have only one and for them it's a badge of honor.

[J Anderson]

It's still a badge of honor, Just ask someone who just shot one for the first time. While there are a lot of bowlers who have multiple 300's, there a lot more who have only one and for them it's a badge of honor.

One of my friends got his first 300 a few years ago, long after earning his P.B.A. card by cashing in P.B.A. regional tournaments. The people he was bowling with barely even congratulated him for a good game let alone a 300, because they all thought that he must have already hit 300 several if not many times.

[Aslan]

Here's something to mess up your numbers. We had four 300s last season, two by the same bowler. This season, one so far. The twenty previous 300s have been thrown by a total of four bowlers.

I've given up on the "extrapolate from bowlingboards" theory. I'm just gonna ask the USBC. I sent them an email, hope to hear something back.

[vdubtx]

I've given up on the "extrapolate from bowlingboards" theory. I'm just gonna ask the USBC. I sent them an email, hope to hear something back.

Will be interesting to hear the real numbers from them when/if you get a reply back. :cool:

[Aslan]

Will be interesting to hear the real numbers from them when/if you get a reply back. :cool:

If I were a "betting man"....based on everyone's input...nationwide...a total guess....total guess...53,799 in 2012.

Anyone wanna play "guess how many jelly beans are in the jar?" And it's not "Price is Right Rules"...it's who is "closest" not "closest without going over"...so no guessing "1".

[bowl1820]

Here's some old info I dug up:

"The American Bowling Congress, the governing body of the sport, reports that in the 1968-69 season, it recorded 905 perfect games in league and tournament matches; in the 1998-99 season, it recorded 34,470."

"In 2001 Despite ABC membership shrinking to 1.7 million bowlers, there was a staggering 42,163 perfect games"

From 2008:
"How is it difficult to launch a 300, or Perfect game? There are an estimated 4 million more avid bowlers in the United States, if each of these bowlers, bowl an average of 20 games per year (which would be a very conservative estimate), which means there are at least 80 million games bowled In the United States each year. In a normal year, there will be between 40000 and 50000 shocked perfect games, according to the USBC, the Official Guardian's annual game statistics published. By doing a little math shows that 0.0005 to 0.0006 percent of all games shattered in a typical year could be a game 300."

[JaMau24]

OMG!! It's funny that you mentioned the ring! I was actually going to ask if they still do that!! So they still give out rings? I was going to ask but then got wrapped up in the stats/numbers (because I'm a dork) and forgot.

Also...I know theres a lot of ole timers on here...youth challenged if you will...does anybody remember bowling back in the 60s/70s? Do you notice the difference in the way a 300 is treated now versus then? Any interesting stories? How many do you remember back then per alley? I didn't start bowling till the 80s...but only casually; so I don't really remember.

Well, remember, I'm still young. It's of my understanding though, that whenever you bowled an honor score, or an achievement, the USBC would always give you something to recognize that score or that achievement. Whenever a 300 or 800 was bowled, you would get a ring for EVERY time you did it (need someone else to confirm that). Then years ago they changed it to only giving you a ring for a 300 or 800 ONE TIME each season. Now the USBC, effective this new season, is only giving one more lifetime ring if you bowl a 300 or 800. Each year they have gotten rid of other awards, like the triplicate award, or 7-10 split conversion award. Did I mentioned they also raised the USBC member fee this season, and they also made it to where you have to pay for a summer membership as well!? In other words, they are getting a lot more money, and giving out a lot less awards and rings. I heard they are going to do away with the 11 in a row award next season too.

I just don't understand why they get so cheap. One ring a season for each a 300 or 800 seems totally reasonable, ESPECIALLY when you consider they redesign the ring each season. I'm also upset that I picked up a 7-10 split (absolutely shocked me and still can't believe it) during the summer, and what do I get!? I get to go to the USBC website and print out a stupid certificate! LOL

Anyway, I'm still hopeful that at some point down the road, things will change again for the better, or they will get someone in charge that will change it for the better.

[Aslan]

At the risk of Jamau24 hating my guts (more than currently)...i have to disagree.

JaMau...what used to be a once in a lifetime thing for amateurs has turned into a 1-2 times per season thing. I think the USBC has just recognized that it's not the accomplishment it used to be...so they aren't awarding it like they used to. And I think thats actually a good thing.

Can you imagine in 1964 bowling a perfect game...you biggest life achievement...getting a ring you cherished your entire life...your name on a plaque at your local alley...then some kid shows up and says, "Oh...you bowled a 300 once? I bowl one per season. I had two this year...I'm kinda annoyed if I don't get at least one per season."

I mean, this used to be a BIG BIG deal. And for better or worse...a matter of individual opinion...it's just not anymore. I bet guys bowl them nowadays and don't even want to fill out any paperwork...even if they could get a ring...they just figure it aint worth the bother....because they already have 5 and one from that same year.

Ya know aht I mean?

[JaMau24]

I mean, I'm fine if you have that opinion. I don't like the fact that it's only one more in your life time, but I'd be just okay with it IF:

1. If you do put that rule in place, then not only do you need to NOT increase the sanction fee, but you need to DECREASE it.

2. If you do put that rule in place, then you need to have one design on the rings from now until they change the rule again (if that ever happens). If they are going to have it where you can't get a ring again, then the ring I get for this season, needs to look the same as the ring in 5 years (or next year even). The problem is, they are going to keep remodeling the ring every year, and the people who bowl a 300/800 will never get the newer remodeled ring. Make it one generic design.

[vdubtx]

USBC used to give an award for every honor score given, couple years ago they changed that to 1 free award for each honor per bowling year. Of course the free rings are the very basic and any upgrades you pay for yourself. Beginning next bowling season 14/15 they are changing to lifetime awards.

You can still purchase ring, plaque etc if you want after you have bowled additional awards.

[vdubtx]

Jason, I don't think paying for summer sanctioning fees is correct. That may be a local association thing but for USBC you pay one time per year only. Sanctioning covers bowling year August/July.

If someone begins bowling in a summer league they would need to sanction for said league, and then again sanction for the next fall season.

[bowl1820]

updated 300 info: Here's the current info over 50,000 perfect 300 games are being submitted and approved every season.


In regards to 300 rings.

You use to get a solid gold ring for a 300 every time you shot one. But they quit doing that and changed to siladium because of the high price of gold and the increased number of 300's being shot. (But you had the option to get gold if you pay for the gold)

For now you can get one 300 award during a fiscal year (August 1-July 31). The 300 rings will go to once a lifetime starting in 2014-15. But if you want another one you can still buy it.


My thought is quit comparing today to what it was 10-20-30-40-50 years ago, you can't get a cup of coffee for a nickel anymore and it's not likely to change back.

So go out and bowl your first 300 and get your once in a lifetime award and enjoy it, just don’t expect one every time you shoot one.

[classygranny]

Jason, I don't think paying for summer sanctioning fees is correct. That may be a local association thing but for USBC you pay one time per year only. Sanctioning covers bowling year August/July.

If someone begins bowling in a summer league they would need to sanction for said league, and then again sanction for the next fall season.

It used to be that if you sanctioned for a summer league, it was good for the following fall and summer, then you renewed every fall from there. New summer bowlers don't get that freebie any longer.

[JaMau24]

Jason, I don't think paying for summer sanctioning fees is correct. That may be a local association thing but for USBC you pay one time per year only. Sanctioning covers bowling year August/July.

If someone begins bowling in a summer league they would need to sanction for said league, and then again sanction for the next fall season.

You may be right. That was something I had heard but never confirmed. I sure hope what I heard was wrong, but it's ridiculous to pay for a sanction fee for both summer and winter.

[vdubtx]

New summer bowlers don't get that freebie any longer.

Correct, my statement reflects this current practice.


You may be right. That was something I had heard but never confirmed. I sure hope what I heard was wrong, but it's ridiculous to pay for a sanction fee for both summer and winter.

Agreed. Since I have started taking summers off I wouldn't want to pay a sanction fee to sub for someone if they asked me to, then again a month or two later for fall.

[Aslan]

(But you had the option to get gold if you pay for the gold)
Ooooo....I did not know that. Bowl1820 is wiser than the average bear me thinks.

DAMN!! $875??!!! Stupid gold prices. This makes me sick that I lost my 14k gold class ring. That dang ring is probably worth $240.


My thought is quit comparing today to what it was 10-20-30-40-50 years ago, you can't get a cup of coffee for a nickel anymore and it's not likely to change back.

I don't drink coffee, so I don't really care. : ) I agree, I'm just saying that 300 games are like cash prizes. If you could pay a quarter to enter a raffle to win $50, would you? Probably not. But in 1960...$50 was a lot more money...so you probably would have. Same with 300 games...people get them now and wonder why it's not given the same "honor" as it once was....it's because since there's 10x as many...you get 1/10th the honor. Thats the penalty for it being easier to achieve. Thats just my take on it. I'll have a formal opinion when I actually roll one...hopefully this week. : )

[J Anderson]

Agreed. Since I have started taking summers off I wouldn't want to pay a sanction fee to sub for someone if they asked me to, then again a month or two later for fall.

If you are sanctioned this Fall/Winter season, you will be able to sub in a sanctioned league next summer. In other words the membership is good for one year.

[scruffwhor]

I tried to join a Thursday night league at the Brunswick Zone right by my house, as an individual, no team.

The center's manager said he would work with me and the established teams to try and find me a spot.

He gave one guy my phone number, and this team captain called me up.

Since my pro shot average was 155, that wasn't high enough for there team to stay competitive on a THS league.

I was able to find a team at a different center, but I must admit that was a little frustrating.

[noeymc]

what was your ths avg if ur pro shot is 155 i am rough guessing house shot 180-190 confused how thats not high enough,,,

[J Anderson]

what was your ths avg if ur pro shot is 155 i am rough guessing house shot 180-190 confused how thats not high enough,,,

According to USBC, a 155 sport average is equivalent to a 179 house average. Most of the leagues I know wouldn't turn away a bowler with a pulse, let alone some one with an average that good.

The captain made the mistake of just looking at the average. If it's a league with a team cap, he's probably trying to get the sum of the team's averages as close to the cap as possible. Statistically that's gives you the best chance at winning the league. What he's ignoring is that someone who has a sport league average is likely to improve over the course of the season. Our fellow BowlingBoards member may start out at 179 and may very well end up averaging in the 190s. As he improves he will be shooting over his average most of the time giving his team an advantage.

[noeymc]

i was just guessing but i guess was kinda close lol =D and all very good points J

[J Anderson]

i was just guessing but i guess was kinda close lol =D and all very good points J

Very close. If I hadn't looked up what my sport average translates to for a couple of tournaments, I would have thought you were right on the money.

I've seen a few 190-200 average bowlers who have a hard time breaking 160 the first few weeks they try to bowl on sport patterns.

[noeymc]

Very close. If I hadn't looked up what my sport average translates to for a couple of tournaments, I would have thought you were right on the money.

I've seen a few 190-200 average bowlers who have a hard time breaking 160 the first few weeks they try to bowl on sport patterns.

gotta have that plastic ball lol

[circlecity]

USBC used to give an award for every honor score given, couple years ago they changed that to 1 free award for each honor per bowling year. Of course the free rings are the very basic and any upgrades you pay for yourself. Beginning next bowling season 14/15 they are changing to lifetime awards.

You can still purchase ring, plaque etc if you want after you have bowled additional awards.

I sent my ring back and got the watch instead. The ring was poorly made.

[bowlerRob2]

Getting back to Aslan's original subject of this thread, I had wanted to bowl two leagues this winter - Thurs and Fri. For Friday I had 3/4's of team already setup so that was no problem (we picked up a 4th member on week 3). Never did get into the Thurs night league I wanted because my team didn't want to bowl that night so I had to go solo. That caused a problem with "fitting me in" to an existing team.

I asked the bowling center coordinator for a spot on a Wednesday night league if I couldn't get into to Thursday. She said she would get back to me in a "few days" (that was 4 weeks ago and I have yet to hear from her). Meanwhile I can see by the league sheets there are still 4 vacant spots on the Wed night league I was interested as an alternate choice. So I suspect there must be some weird kind of politics here. It would seem they would be anxious to fill a league esp. if there are interested people. Last time I checked, vacant spots don't pay the weekly fees.

I think next week I am going to show up on Wednesday night and offer to substitute and see what happens. I also think it has to do with the part of the country you live in. If I were in Wisconsin for example, I suspect I could have all the league slots I wanted. Well at least I got this thread back on topic! LOL; somehow it turned into a discussion about 300 pins.

[Aslan]

She said she would get back to me in a "few days" (that was 4 weeks ago and I have yet to hear from her).

Thats what really annoyed me most...I reached out, offered to be a sub....she tells me she'll have a spot for me...then confirms that she'll have a spot for me...then the week before league starts...I send 3 unanswered emails....not knowing where I needed to go, who I needed to see/speak to...nothing. And she almost acted "annoyed" that I wanted the information.

Bowling leagues are the heart and soul of bowling alleys. The problems as the numbers have faded is that you might have 20 people that want to bowl...but they are all singles/doubles/trios...so a lot of people don't join a league because they "don't have enough people to forma a team". I think alleys need to do more promotion of the fact that they want more people to play leagues...and you don't need a full team to join. I know me personally, I woulda joined a league years ago...but always thought that I needed a full team to join a bowling league.

[bowlerRob2]

Bowling leagues are the heart and soul of bowling alleys.


You would think so. In the case of our Friday night leagues, we give the center a lot of steady business. We have 30 teams on our league, and the other league has 8 so that nearly fills the house. You would think that would be a bowling proprietor's dream! Having a guaranteed house full of bowlers every Friday night. I know Wednesday and Thursday nites are the same scenario when I look at the numbers and times they are bowling. So what is going on with those folks?

It is now week 9 on those leagues and they still have 3 "vacant" spots on the Wednesday night league. I went down last Wednesday and offered to sub but there were no takers so I wasted the trip. :-(

[JJKinGA]

One house in my area claims they make over $10,000 on a $0.25 a game night promotion that mostly fills the house. For leagues they make ~$1000 in linage with a full house. They would need to average $9 per person in food and drink profit. You can see which way they are going to lean.

The house I bowl in has multiple leagues filling the house almost every night. The are trying to make it as a league driving house. They just might as the ohter houses are not. but if the example I was told above is consistent, the economics to be a league house is not a as good as being a fun party house.

[bowlerRob2]

One house in my area claims they make over $10,000 on a $0.25 a game night promotion that mostly fills the house. For leagues they make ~$1000 in linage with a full house. They would need to average $9 per person in food and drink profit. You can see which way they are going to lean.

The house I bowl in has multiple leagues filling the house almost every night. The are trying to make it as a league driving house. They just might as the ohter houses are not. but if the example I was told above is consistent, the economics to be a league house is not a as good as being a fun party house.


25 cents a game! No wonder they fill the house. That creates a loss since I'm pretty sure it costs them more than 25 cents a game so they must really make up the difference in food and drink. League bowlers use the bar and food service very heavily where I bowl and one other thing to add is they give business to the pro shop that "fun time" bowlers probably do not. So I don't know what the real numbers are but I would hate to see leagues declining.

[Aslan]

League bowlers use the bar and food service very heavily .

THIS x 500!!!

On league night...Thursday...which is the "El Cheapo" league ($10 per night, non-sanctioned) so by definition...not "big spenders"...I'd say on average...our team or any given team will spend $40-$80 for 4 people. So even in this CHEAPSKATE league...they're making over the $9 they say they need.

On league night on Fridays...5-person league...EVERY WEEK our food/drink bill is roughly $100. And thats AFTER the $24/person to play in it. So thats more than DOUBLE the $9 they say they need.

And like bowlerRob said...the KEY is that league players drive other players to your alley. They bring in people...new league players, new teams. They also spend money in the pro shop. How many times have I been to some weekday/midday alley for some $1.25 a game special...and the pro-shop is open with ZERO people ever even so much as looking in there?? Yet on league night...people are in and out and in and out and in... When I went to visit Mike White...once it got within an hour of league night...there were like 4 people lined up to see him! On Fridays, the pro shop has someone else on staff watching it so the pro can bowl in the league (he's the president of the league).

You lose league players...and you try to rely on cosmic bowlers and birthday parties for your revenue...forget about it. Your alley will close in under 4 years. Cosmic bowlers have a LOT of people competing for their dollars. You're not getting them once a week. And birthdays are once a year and most people don't go to the same place for their birthday party EVERY year.

But, alleys are stupid...and rather than look back at the 70s...see so many leagues that you had turn people away...and thinking, "How can we build more leagues and get younger folks interested in league play?"...they listen to some arcade consultant that feeds them all that nonsense about turning their alleys into goofy looking bars with wine spritzers and tofu sandwiches. It's just too bad.

[circlecity]

All of this stuff is opinions and not fact which I'm sure everybody knows. I would love to hear from an actual bowling alley owner or someone who really knows the numbers and isn't guessing.

[e-tank]

And like bowlerRob said...the KEY is that league players drive other players to your alley. They bring in people...new league players, new teams. They also spend money in the pro shop. How many times have I been to some weekday/midday alley for some $1.25 a game special...and the pro-shop is open with ZERO people ever even so much as looking in there?? Yet on league night...people are in and out and in and out and in... When I went to visit Mike White...once it got within an hour of league night...there were like 4 people lined up to see him! On Fridays, the pro shop has someone else on staff watching it so the pro can bowl in the league (he's the president of the league).


Sounds like the pro shop in my house. Although i never see people in there league night or not. Ive never used his drilling services but the few times ive spoken to him it sounds like he has no idea what hes doing. The guy i go to which is about 20 min from me always has customers and hes not even in a alley. Been meaning to head up to see Mike to get the tri grip done. Glad to see hes so popular lol

[Aslan]

All of this stuff is opinions and not fact which I'm sure everybody knows. I would love to hear from an actual bowling alley owner or someone who really knows the numbers and isn't guessing.

I agree, but I think that will be difficult. Companies that are "advising" bowling alleys…according to an article I read online…are feeding them statistics about demographics being younger and kids trending towards easy lane conditions and open bowling. They then tell them all their profits are going to be private parties and liquor sales from turning their alleys into semi-night clubs. If an alley owner is losing money…he'll listen.

[mjoyce]

From my experience I can see why the house that has my league would favor cosmic bowling. Cosmic bowling there is $14 all you can bowl including shoes. 2 weeks ago my fiance and I stayed after leagues to cosmic bowl with her sister and boyfriend. The house wasn't nearly full but probably about 50%. I'd say of the patrons 25% were children then some over 21 couples and friends having a good time.

The food and beverages at this bowlmore AMF house is EXPENSIVE. $11 for a pitcher of domestic, I think $16 for sam adams. If you want a bucket of 6 coronas...$30.

The league bowlers will be happy with their $11 domestic (well not happy but you know what I mean) The randoms that come in are out for a night of fun. So if they're on a date or whatever they're more inclined to buy the more expensive beer.

Leagues are good because it will bring repeat business. But from a business owner standpoint they can bank profit by charging the non regular customers a ton for cosmic bowling.

It also seems that $14 for two hours of bowling is pretty much the going rate like on a Sunday afternoon...which explains why the place is usually DEAD then. We still get the $2 practice games.

I would think that after a while charging these prices is going to dry up the client pool and centers will be less and less busy. I really like bowling in the league I'm in but honestly if I wasn't in a league I wouldn't have stayed for cosmic bowlling two weeks ago. We'd have done something else, gone to a bar, grabbed some food, whatever instead of spending that money bowling.

I feel like the $0.25 per game model makes more sense. You get the people in there for the cheap and they come back because the bowling is cheap and they had fun and this way you drive volume. The model AMF is currently running is driving profits through price, that's all well and good but eventually capitalism either forces a drive down in price due to competition in the area or the profits die and the places close.

[bowl1820]

House here does pretty good for the leagues.

Reward card and Play pass card

League bowlers Pay $15+tax a month for unlimited open bowling

Free Rewards Cash: Your card comes with cash already loaded on it! It's our way of saying thanks for joining! ( You got a $1.00 for each week you bowled in a league last season I got $34 this time.)

Cash Back: 10% cash back! For examples, you'll get $2 for every $20
Also for every $100 you put on your card, they give you a extra $15


there's also a card upgrade for $15 with slight increases in above stuff

[e-tank]

House here does pretty good for the leagues.

Reward card and Play pass card

League bowlers Pay $15+tax a month for unlimited open bowling

Free Rewards Cash: Your card comes with cash already loaded on it! It's our way of saying thanks for joining! ( You got a $1.00 for each week you bowled in a league last season I got $34 this time.)

Cash Back: 10% cash back! For examples, you'll get $2 for every $20
Also for every $100 you put on your card, they give you a extra $15


there's also a card upgrade for $15 with slight increases in above stuff

sounds like a good deal. I spend anywhere from $12-18 a week for practice. Id be there every day if it was free opening bowling haha

[Aslan]

The AMF/Bowlmor lost my business today due to their new 4PM opening time on Wednesdays.

And more than that…most days during the week when I go there…EMPTY. Last Monday there was ONE lane playing plus me. Until when? When LEAGUES showed up.

I just think it's funny that during league nights (Mon-Fri) I many times can't find ONE open lane…yet a bowling alley would prefer to tell all those die hard bowlers to take a hike…close their alleys until 4PM on weekdays…then "hope" that enough people on dates during the week or scheduling birthday parties will just randomly show up. Big mistake in my opinion. Every single alley I've seen that has lost it's leagues has died. Maybe not right away…but cosmic bowlers aren't bowling every week…and if they do…they start looking for leagues.