Dilemma emulating pro bowler's styles...

[Aslan]

Okay, so I've been struggling with my game on synthetic lanes. I seem to do really well on wood lanes where the oil is more soaked into the wood...but on slick synthetic lanes...horrible. We're talking at LEAST a 10-30 pin difference in average.

So I tried to get professional coaching...but the first guy (bronze certified, 210 USBC sanctioned average) advocated a upright, high loft, shortened backswing, shortened approach...and the second guy (hall of famer PBA bowler) advocated a much more traditional stay low, release earlier type of approach.

But thats neither here nor there...the overall point I'm getting at is I'm really, really struggling. I can go bowl 165-185 on wood lanes...bowl series ranging from 411-500...then I go bowl on sythetics with the same approach, swing, release...just changing my target due to my ball having ZERO reactivity on the back end...and I'm bowling 97-134...series in 300-380 range. And I'm struggling with the advice of BOTH pros because if I shorten everything and do high loft...there are advantages...but disadvantages as well. Same with setting the ball down earlier...advantages...but disadvantages. For example;

If I go "high loft" (15ft out) I take out any possiblity the ball will hook. It doesn't get spinning early enough and the impact takes away it's energy. However, because I'm upright...it helps me keep my shoulders straight and I'm more consistent at hitting the head pin.

If I release earlier (traditional "setting it down just past the towel" type of release)...I have to target the dots instead of the arrows and if you "miss" by just one board...you miss the head pin. Simple physics/geometry...take 2 points that are close together...try to draw a line between them that hits the target...now move those dots apart and draw the line...if you "miss" you still can hit the headpin; it's more forgiving. Plus, I have REAL problems either rotating my shoulders too much or too little when I release early...which leads me to not just "miss"...but miss huge...like hitting the 4-pin kinda miss.

So...long backstory to a much simpler question...but I decided maybe I can learn to tweak my approach/swing/release/follow-through by watching pro bowlers. I picked my personal favorite pro bowler...Walter Ray Williams Jr. Future hall of Famer...most titles...and a good guy overall. The PROBLEM is...his approach is FUNKY. I mean, if he wasn't Water Ray...and he took a lesson from a pro..the pro would want to change his approach/swing. Why? Well...most obvious...look at his sweeping/balance leg. Just youtube him...his approach/swing is always the same from year to year tournament to tournament. After he releases...he's standing on one foot like a flamingo. That...and he does a "jerky" release/follow-through.

So I think I'll takle a look at my 2nd favorite bowler's (Earl Anthony) approach and see if I can learn something from him. Because trying to emulate Walter Ray...I just think that has disaster written all over it.

So the question for the forum is...do you guys/gals ever emulate a pro bowler? Have you tried to emulate one and it did/didn't work out? Is there any pro bowler you root for/like but his style is just too quirky/weird for you to emulate?

[vdubtx]

I have taken bits and pieces from several different bowlers and adapted those tweaks into my approach etc. In the end though, I just made the tweaks and adjusted them to my liking and how my game is.

I like Mike Fagan, but his approach and HIGH back swing is something I couldn't adjust to.

[Zaxmazr]

I have taken bits and pieces from several different bowlers and adapted those tweaks into my approach etc. In the end though, I just made the tweaks and adjusted them to my liking and how my game is.

I like Mike Fagan, but his approach and HIGH back swing is something I couldn't adjust to.

I'm amazed with his 'no pause' motion

[Stormed1]

If I were trying to copy an aproach and armswing I would look at David Ozio , smooth and controlled. Was coached by one of the best , JohnJowdy. As for your synthetic league you will probably need to get something stronger than your Frantic due to the harder surface , and therefore less friction than wood of the synthetic surface

[classygranny]

Ozio is good. Think about watching Chris Barnes for his approach and timing. Chris can change between 5 steps, 4 steps, even 3 steps when in front of ball rack, because he KNOWS where the ball is and where it needs to be at each point of the approach.

Until your approach is consistent and your timing is good, it won't help too much to work on other things (this according to my coach). And I see he is right. What I worked on prior to getting my approach consistent has now changed somewhat, so I am starting over in some areas.

If you haven't read The Game Changer by Mark Baker, you may want to pick up a copy and give it a read.

[noeymc]

any coach will say chris barns has the best forum out of any bowler hands down and easy

[vdubtx]

Ozio is good. Think about watching Chris Barnes for his approach and timing. Chris can change between 5 steps, 4 steps, even 3 steps when in front of ball rack, because he KNOWS where the ball is and where it needs to be at each point of the approach.

Until your approach is consistent and your timing is good, it won't help too much to work on other things (this according to my coach). And I see he is right. What I worked on prior to getting my approach consistent has now changed somewhat, so I am starting over in some areas.

If you haven't read The Game Changer by Mark Baker, you may want to pick up a copy and give it a read.


any coach will say chris barns has the best forum out of any bowler hands down and easy

Both of you absolutely correct. When I have trouble with my timing and need to tweak it, I always look at Chris Barnes' timing video on Youtube. Very good video and shows both 4 and 5 step approaches broken down and clear.

[Bunny]

If you haven't read The Game Changer by Mark Baker, you may want to pick up a copy and give it a read.


Just finished reading it. Great Book!!

My husband has his private lesson with Mark on Friday. He's pretty excited. :D

[classygranny]

Just finished reading it. Great Book!!

My husband has his private lesson with Mark on Friday. He's pretty excited. :D

OOOOhhhhh, I am sooooooo jealous!

[e-tank]

im not sure if my form looks the same as some of the people i try to emulate but yes pretty much different bits of my form are taken from pros

when i first started i watched a lot of dick weber and as i result i used to do that "ta da" thing he would do with his hand at the end of his follow through

[J Anderson]

So the question for the forum is...do you guys/gals ever emulate a pro bowler? Have you tried to emulate one and it did/didn't work out? Is there any pro bowler you root for/like but his style is just too quirky/weird for you to emulate?

I don't think that I consciously try to copy any of the pros. Having watched the P.B.A. Tour since I was a kid I may have adopted some things from the pros without realizing it. I did emulate my dad when I first started bowling, but I suspect that the only part of his game that remains in mine is the number of steps.

If you do choose to copy one of the pros, you should probably pick one whose physical build is similar to your own. At 5'8", 150 to 160 pounds depending on whether my wife is on a diet or not, I'm not likely to have much success trying to throw like Wes Malott. Fortunately there are and nave been a number of great bowlers with similar builds, so I can choose from styles like Dick Weber, to Pete Weber, to Amletto Monicelli, to Tom Smallwood, etc.

In the end though it's going to be your style. Kepp practicing and trying different things until you find what work, and then practice till it becomes automatic.

[Aslan]

I picked my personal favorite pro bowler...Walter Ray Williams Jr. Future hall of Famer...most titles...and a good guy overall. The PROBLEM is...his approach is FUNKY. I mean, if he wasn't Water Ray...and he took a lesson from a pro..the pro would want to change his approach/swing. Why? Well...most obvious...look at his sweeping/balance leg. Just youtube him...his approach/swing is always the same from year to year tournament to tournament. After he releases...he's standing on one foot like a flamingo. That...and he does a "jerky" release/follow-through.

So I think I'll takle a look at my 2nd favorite bowler's (Earl Anthony) approach and see if I can learn something from him. Because trying to emulate Walter Ray...I just think that has disaster written all over it.

So I watched some Earl Anthony and I noticed something. When i first started getting a lesson here or there...the first two things I was told to try and change were leaning over the foul lane after release and not taking such a long last step. Well...guess what Earl Anhtony does? Long last step and leaning over the foul line after release.

He does get a little lower and gets the ball down sooner...so I guess I could try to meld that into my game.

[classygranny]

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree here. While I am a big fan of Earl Anthony and believe he is the all-time greatest bowler, I believe you have to keep that in context of "during his time". With the modern game as it is, leaning over the foul line is NOT a good thing. You lose leverage when this is done, and a few other issues develop.

Now with the long last step, I won't entirely disagree with that. Most people fair well with a long slide step (but planting works too) providing you use it to get the knee bent and the plant foot centered under your body.

As I see it, Aslan, you seem to want to take everything you've been told and turn it around. Apparently, you just defy being told what to do, or what you should be doing. I believe you could be a coach's worst nightmare. When you do get coaching, try something new....LISTEN, and also, why don't you ask the coach WHY they suggest something and then go from there. It seems you take what they say and then try to get the people on this forum to back you up when you try and dissect it to be wrong.

[Aslan]

As I see it, Aslan, you seem to want to take everything you've been told and turn it around. Apparently, you just defy being told what to do, or what you should be doing. I believe you could be a coach's worst nightmare. When you do get coaching, try something new....LISTEN, and also, why don't you ask the coach WHY they suggest something and then go from there. It seems you take what they say and then try to get the people on this forum to back you up when you try and dissect it to be wrong.

I think you must be confused or listening to hoffman or maybe it's just a personality conflict.

I got lessons from a guy, I listened, I incorporated a lot of what he said into my game...and got better. There were some things that didn't seem to fit. I went to a second guy, he had a completely different take so now I'm trying to incorporate some of things he told me into my game. Unfortunately, some of things guy #1 and guy#2 have told me are at odds...which makes it a little more difficult to "just do what I'm told". Actually, it would make it impossible barring the ability to clone myself.

I know you and hoffman seem to dislike my personality, I get it, I can even understand it. But geez, lets not turn every thread into personal attacks.

[J Anderson]

So I watched some Earl Anthony and I noticed something. When i first started getting a lesson here or there...the first two things I was told to try and change were leaning over the foul lane after release and not taking such a long last step. Well...guess what Earl Anhtony does? Long last step and leaning over the foul line after release.

He does get a little lower and gets the ball down sooner...so I guess I could try to meld that into my game.

I realize that it's natural to try to copy either the most flamboyant people or the most successful ones. Obviously you have chosen to study the successes rather than the excesses. Since WRW isn't a good match for you, instead of going back to Earl, why not try a right-hander from the current era who has been successful? Norm Duke and Pete Weber each have over thirty titles. Brian Voss has 25 and though he doen't regulayly compete on the tour his last title was only 3 years ago.

[Aslan]

Norm Duke and Pete Weber each have over thirty titles. Brian Voss has 25 and though he doen't regulayly compete on the tour his last title was only 3 years ago.

I'll take a look at a bunch of em. I watch a LOT of old ABC Sports bowling championships online. I did watch a little of Pete Weber versus Walter Ray.

I actually like Walter Ray's form. It's just not "conventional". I like the little "umphh" he puts on the ball at the end. I think if I can do something like that on my release, perhaps I can get a little more revs. Same thing with Anthony. I like that his backswing is rather small...that might help me as I try to figure out synthetics. My natural tendency is to have a high backswing...but it throws my timing off (I get to the line before the ball gets down and then I'm forcing it down). Not to mention, both coaches were in agreement that I don't need more speed. I didn't realize it...but I guess I was throwing in excess of 18mph. Kinda hard to get a ball to hook when you loft it 15ft at 18mph.

So for me, it's not about trying to "copy" a form. I mean, I don't like the way Anthony leans forward like he does. That tends to make my shoulders go out of alignment. But I do like his fluid approach and the easy way he sets the ball on the lane. And I might try to play the far outside of the lane like he does...again...something to maybe get some more reactivity. And I like Walter Ray's release. It's not enough "muscle" to throw the shoulders out of alignment, but enough to get the ball spinning. So maybe take both of those...add my own tendency to sweep my leg a bit more...it's just trying different things and seeing how they work.

All I know is...I'm not DRESSING like Ernie Schlegel.

[Aslan]

And like someone else mentioned...one of the things is trying to find a body type that matches. I am taller and lankier...so it's really hard to get super low. I'm not a young pup anymore and after 10-15 frames of a 90 degree sliding foot/knee bend...I start walking with a limp. So watching taller, lankier guys like Anthony and Williams...how low they get down or don't get down...kinda helps me guage what I should try doing. Shorter guys like Bohn, Weber, Duke....I love watching them and their forms...but I'd have trouble getting that low. So I do agree...I think finding a pro with a similar body style is important.

I'd love to throw like Tommy Jones or Sean Rash...I just don't know how they can get the revs they do. I think I throw a lot like Parker Bohn III...except from the right side. But Bohn uses the far outside of the lane and I struggle if I get near that first arrow...I get scared of the gutter.

[classygranny]

I think you must be confused or listening to hoffman or maybe it's just a personality conflict.

I got lessons from a guy, I listened, I incorporated a lot of what he said into my game...and got better. There were some things that didn't seem to fit. I went to a second guy, he had a completely different take so now I'm trying to incorporate some of things he told me into my game. Unfortunately, some of things guy #1 and guy#2 have told me are at odds...which makes it a little more difficult to "just do what I'm told". Actually, it would make it impossible barring the ability to clone myself.

I know you and hoffman seem to dislike my personality, I get it, I can even understand it. But geez, lets not turn every thread into personal attacks.

Aslan, it's not a personality conflict NOR a personal attack. I really don't care how you portray yourself on the boards as long as it isn't offensive to the general board members. I also realize you have been to two conflicting coaches. What I was attempting to instill is 1) decide who you want to listen to - coach wise, by either an in depth interview into their coaching methods, how they stay up-to-date on current bowling trends, etc and 2) make a decision of what you want to learn and stick with it. If you go back and reread the majority of your posts you will see how conflicted you really are. And, oh, by the way - it's getting a bit old...every post seems to turn into your conflicting this and that. I was this, but now I'm that, but that didn't work, so I'm doing this...and on and on.

What I was attempting to get across was that until you can get to the foul line on a consistent basis, all the other stuff isn't really going to matter much. Make one decision and stick to it long enough to see if it works or not...and anything less than 100 games is too little to make a determination.

[J Anderson]

All I know is...I'm not DRESSING like Ernie Schlegel.

Good, it's much better to dress like Guppy Troup!

[vdubtx]

Aslan,

For the record, this isn't a personal attack nor a personality conflict. Feel I have to say something with the statement you made towards classygranny. From posts I have read where advice you have been given by her and others including myself, it truly seems you don't want to listen to them. The advice given over the past several weeks or month has been good and sound tips on what could be wrong with your game. For myself, and who really cares about what I say since you don't, I am done giving advice to you. I truly hope you find success in your bowling and you find whatever works for you. Best of luck!!

[Aslan]

If you go back and reread the majority of your posts you will see how conflicted you really are. And, oh, by the way - it's getting a bit old...every post seems to turn into your conflicting this and that. I was this, but now I'm that, but that didn't work, so I'm doing this...and on and on.

Point taken...I will no longer discuss my bowling struggles on bowlingboards.com. If I get the urge, I will find a way to just say something non-offensive and maybe educational or inspirational...something non-related to my current struggles. I apologize that a person struggling with their bowling game is so boring and offensive to you.

[Aslan]

Aslan,

For the record, this isn't a personal attack nor a personality conflict. Feel I have to say something with the statement you made towards classygranny.

Why? Why do you feel you have to say something regarding what I said to her?


I am done giving advice to you.
Thank You


I truly hope you find success in your bowling and you find whatever works for you. Best of luck!!
I doubt you feel that way. But I agree and also hope I find the success I'm looking for.

On a side note...would it be possible if those that dislike me just "PM" me this kinda stuff. I don't want to clog the forum with this nonsense. Bowl1820 has already asked 1-2 times that this kinda stuff not be aired publically and I 100% agree. Please feel free to PM me with whatever "hate" or "personal criticisms" you might have. I am older than 13 so if you're "mean to me" online/via PM I won't get suicidal or anything...I promise. I just think it's getting old for everyone else. Some people are here to chillax and try to win a free ball...they don't want an episode of "As the World Turns" every time Aslan is dimwitted enough to make a post on the forums. Thanks in advance.

[Aslan]

Good, it's much better to dress like Guppy Troup!

Actually...those killer plaid pants he wore weren't much worse than what you see on the pro golf tour.

One thing I like about going back to old videos is seeing how styles have changed (fashion). I've been watching a lot of Earl Anthony and to see him with the feathered hair and the giant spectacles...totally 80s look. Then you go back to the golden era...all the guys are wearing essentially "uniforms"...just plain shirts with thier names on the back. Then fast forward to today and it looks like the bowling ball manufacturers are having a contest to see who can make the most fluorescent and distracting bowling jersey. Whino (I meant Rhino but mis-typed...but I'm leaving it because it's funny) Page looks like a creamsicle exploded!!

Also...sidenote...Earl Anthony's wife...HOT. They usually show the wives during the matches, at least they used to. Parker Bohn's wife got interviewed and she seemed really nice. But Suzie Anthony, circa 1981...wowsers.

I think I'm gonna go old school and try to watch some old Carmen Salvino...see if I can pick anything up from an old school great.

[Aslan]

I picked my personal favorite pro bowler...Walter Ray Williams Jr. Future hall of Famer...most titles...and a good guy overall.

Man…this still bugs me. Been watching a lot of WRW…we're similar in height, both right handers…and I gotta think if there's a pro bowler to emulate…nobody alive has the hardware that Walter Ray does. But man…I just CANNOT see how that guy gets the consistency he does with that delivery. Must be his horseshoe throwing background or something. I watched the Wichita Open where they actually slow motioned his swing and WOW…that thing he does where his right hand snaps up and his right leg swings up…Wow! :eek: :confused:

[sprocket]

Walter Ray has the ability to accelerate his release even though his hand is not in a very strong position. He does so by getting pretty much his whole body into it at the foul line. If he simply released it smooth with his hand where it is, he would have a weak end-over-end roll with far less revs or else he would have to throw it slow and the ball would likely roll out.

As with many top pro bowlers he has many great things about his delivery but also has one oddball thing that is almost impossible to imitate and it makes him great. He also has incredible hand eye co-ordination which he has always had, probably genetics, but has been greatly enhanced by his millions of horse shoe tosses.

[Aslan]

Yeah. I've found that to be rather frustrating about "emulating the pros". No matter who you pick..there's something that they do or don't do that makes it hard to just "emulate them". With WRW it's that funky sort of "jump release". With Earl Anthony it's the way he leans over the foul line. Even PDW…he has that sort of old skool "side release"….where after releasing the ball his arm goes off to the side and he sort of moves off to the right.

I'm gonna try to watch Parker Bohn or Mika and see if maybe they have styles that are a little easier to emulate. Doubtful about Mika though…I have no idea how he can get a low enough speed to make the ball hook with that high of a backswing.

[Perrin]

The announcers were talking about Mika's style one time in a show he made...

Something along the lines of his bowling style was heavily influences by his height and the lanes he learned/bowled on where wood with dry heads.

Those things (combined with others of course) are the reason he lofts the ball so much and is so good at doing so consistently and accuractely.

[Aslan]

The announcers were talking about Mika's style one time in a show he made...

Something along the lines of his bowling style was heavily influences by his height and the lanes he learned/bowled on where wood with dry heads.

Those things (combined with others of course) are the reason he lofts the ball so much and is so good at doing so consistently and accuractely.

Thats a good point. I am also tall and started on dry/wood lanes so I tend to loft it more as well. Thats why I was thinking maybe he'd be a more natural one for me to emulate.

[sprocket]

Mika lofts the ball a long ways but it still lands soft like a plane coming in for a landing. He does this by hitting out, not up, on the ball and he releases the ball from a fairly high point. Since his ball is released so far above the lane, the only way possible for it to land soft is if he lofts it a long ways. The less his loft, the steeper the downward angle and the harder the ball is going to hit the lane. It takes great athletic ability to do that and also long arms and a lanky frame. So forget it if you think his style is anything but very difficult to emulate.

Parker Bohn's delivery isn't going to be easy to copy either. How many other pros throw it like him? He has tremendous knee bend and continuation, especially considering his age, and a golden armswing that never at any point relies on cupping or cocking the ball. He just has incredible release timing where he is able to hit the ball effortlessly without ever changing the tempo of his swing. Like Weber, he doesn't really play the inside of the ball. His hand gets to the side before release and like Weber he has a very soft release with no grab. His flawless timing allows him to generate speed and a powerful roll. Good luck trying to do what he does. If you could throw it like Parker Bohn you would BE Parker Bohn.

If you want to see a delivery that you could actually try to emulate watch David Ozio. He doesn't do anything remarkable except that he does everything very, very well.

[Aslan]

Now you're gonna make me watch even MORE video (kidding). :cool: