Online League Bowling

[Spinner1]

Looking for your help and thoughts.
I work for an outfit that is looking for ideas about organizing an online bowling league(s). The basic idea is to use scores bowled during regular sanctioned leagues and post those to the web site for stats. We are looking for any thoughts anyone might have about such a league. The format would be best if it were developed from the ideas of a wide range of bowlers. The basics at this time might be, 4 week sessions, 3 man teams, handicap, 80% of 250?, point money and entry $3.00 per week, optional brackets and pots. There is no plan to make money with this as it will require a lot of work and custom software, but having been in the bowling business for over 25 years I do think it could be good for bowling. If you would like to help design this league you could do it at www.nationalbowler.com (http://www.biggest-dream-tournament.com/The_Nine/N_L_B/n_l_b.html) or on this post. Looking for ideas.

[ArtVandelay]

I dunno, man. It would be too hard to really regulate. For instance, I happen to get along quite well with my league secretary.... I don't think I could get her to lie for me, but I bet other people could get their league secretary to lie for them if they give them a cut. Ya know? I just wouldn't be comfortable with it, personally.


Good luck to you!

[kakcpa]

Let's say you have two bowlers who average 207. One averages 207 on a house walled up condition, and the other averages 207 on a sport condition....how would you compensate for that to make it fair?

[Spinner1]

I dunno, man. It would be too hard to really regulate. For instance, I happen to get along quite well with my league secretary.... I don't think I could get her to lie for me, but I bet other people could get their league secretary to lie for them if they give them a cut. Ya know? I just wouldn't be comfortable with it, personally.


Good luck to you!
Thanks for the comment.
One of the obvious challenges is going to be verifying scores. There are a number of ways to approach verification of scores. The consideration and tools include.

1) There will be three people on a team, getting three people to cheat together will keep the temptation lower.

2) When the team captain uploads scores he must also attach a copy of the previous weeks local league standing sheets. Either get a copy from the secretary or copy past and attach from league secretary.com

3) Before any point or bracket money is paid out the scores must be verified by league secretary.

3) As the amounts of money won gets larger the verification would increase.

4) We are considering an approach that would encourage others to check reported scores. The “watch your back game”, any person discovering and reporting an inaccurate score reported to the league would receive ½, 2/3, or all of whatever point, bracket and pot money the offending team would have received.

5) There could be a hall of shame page for any bowlers caught reporting bad scores.

6) We will take legal against any bowlers attempting to defraud the league.

Working out the mix of how to use these and other approaches is where we are now.
Thanks again and we appreciate any thoughts on this subject.

[Spinner1]

Thanks for the post, keeping this fair is the challenge and where we want suggestions.

The rules will state that a bowler in this league would bowl essentially on the same conditions as his highest average was bowled, this was to address sport averages.
All bowlers will use their highest average of the last three (3) years. This means someone would have sandbagged for 3 years in every house and league, for 42 games in each league. That would be pretty tough. .

The rules also allow the league to re rate any bowlers average for any reason, which would probably be other local bowlers questioning a bowlers average.

We are considering an approach that would encourage others to check reported scores.
The “watch your back game”, any person discovering and reporting an inaccurate score reported to the league would receive ½, 2/3, or all ? of whatever point, bracket and pot money the offending team or bowler would have received. This would be an anonymous tip style of hotline.

Most people that cheat have lots of enemies, we want those enemies to help maintain the integrity of the league.
Thanks again

[Spinner1]

Let's say you have two bowlers who average 207. One averages 207 on a house walled up condition, and the other averages 207 on a sport condition....how would you compensate for that to make it fair?
Thanks for the post, keeping this fair is the challenge and where we want suggestions.

The rules will state that a bowler in this league would bowl essentially on the same conditions as his highest average was bowled, this was to address sport averages.
All bowlers will use their highest average of the last three (3) years. This means someone would have sandbagged for 3 years in every house and league, for 42 games in each league. That would be pretty tough. .

The rules also allow the league to re rate any bowlers average for any reason, which would probably be other local bowlers questioning a bowlers average.

We are considering an approach that would encourage others to check reported scores.
The “watch your back game”, any person discovering and reporting an inaccurate score reported to the league would receive ½, 2/3, or all ? of whatever point, bracket and pot money the offending team or bowler would have received. This would be an anonymous tip style of hotline.

Most people that cheat have lots of enemies, we want those enemies to help maintain the integrity of the league.
Thanks again

[Baroncad]

Okay, first off great concept, implementation of said Concept may not be feasible.
My opinions and/or comments are in red
Thanks for the comment.
One of the obvious challenges is going to be verifying scores. There are a number of ways to approach verification of scores. The consideration and tools include.

1) There will be three people on a team, getting three people to cheat together will keep the temptation lower. You mean four people (three person team and their League Secretary)

2) When the team captain uploads scores he must also attach a copy of the previous weeks local league standing sheets. Either get a copy from the secretary or copy past and attach from league secretary.com
What if that League doesn't use League-secretary.com for stats. My three leagues don't. No Access to a scanner to scan said standing sheet.

3) Before any point or bracket money is paid out the scores must be verified by league secretary. By what means if you can't verify team's scores without standing sheet and that team's League Secretary to verify

3) As the amounts of money won gets larger the verification would increase.

4) We are considering an approach that would encourage others to check reported scores. The “watch your back game”, any person discovering and reporting an inaccurate score reported to the league would receive ½, 2/3, or all of whatever point, bracket and pot money the offending team would have received.

5) There could be a hall of shame page for any bowlers caught reporting bad scores.

6) We will take legal action against any bowlers attempting to defraud the league. How? Your in state "A" the offending person (s) in state "B". unless you plan on charging them with wire fraud across statelines (Federal rap=felony). You would need a local lawyer in their state to file charges. Major $$$ to defend for a misdemeanor charge. Gambling across statelines (Brackets) might have the Feds. coming after you.

Working out the mix of how to use these and other approaches is where we are now.
Thanks again and we appreciate any thoughts on this subject.

A lot of questions would need to be addressed before you could even begin implementation of your online league. You have contacted a Lawyer for legal issues?

[Iceman]

This would be a nice idea - but my first thought - Rules of USBC say no gambling involving bowling correct? Also like Baroncad said gambling across state lines, I'd be afraid to even take that step.

We do a house bracket each week - it's kinda the same idea, but it's all local in house - and we have a running house jackpot (not league based)

Sounds like you'd need an attorney to help sort out the legality here, watch the USBC - since they have that new building in Texas, they may want a piece of your ideal too to cover even less lifetime awards :rolleyes: (yes - just a small shot at USBC)

[Spinner1]

Okay, first off great concept, implementation of said Concept may not be feasible.
My opinions and/or comments are in red

A lot of questions would need to be addressed before you could even begin implementation of your online league. You have contacted a Lawyer for legal issues?


Thanks for the questions, hope these responses answer or at least partially answer your questions. responses are in blue
Okay, first off great concept, implementation of said Concept may not be feasible.
My opinions and/or comments are in red
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner1
Thanks for the comment.One of the obvious challenges is going to be verifying scores. There are a number of ways to approach verification of scores.
The consideration and tools include.
1) There will be three people on a team, getting three people to cheat together will keep the temptation lower. You mean four people (three person team and their League Secretary) Yes, the more people the better. Printing out false local league standing sheets would require a pretty ambitious and crooked secretary. Luckily people that bad usually don’t last long in those positions.

2) When the team captain uploads scores he must also attach a copy of the previous weeks local league standing sheets. Either get a copy from the secretary or copy past and attach from league secretary.com What if that League doesn't use League-secretary.com for stats. My three leagues don't. No Access to a scanner to scan said standing sheet.
This is an Online League, any bowler that is unable to verify his or her scores online won’t be able to participate at this time. In the future I expect online connections with score systems to address this, but it’s not feasible today.

3) Before any point or bracket money is paid out the scores must be verified by league secretary.
By what means if you can't verify team's scores without standing sheet and that team's League Secretary to verify.
If the secretary is unable to make a copy available a bowler can ask the center. Centers have standings available on their score system servers, and centers are in business to take of their bowlers. I owned a center for over 25 years and I’m most familiar with Brunswick touchworks. In that and most systems weekly stats are available until the next weeks scores are entered and approved.

3) As the amounts of money won gets larger the verification would increase.

4) We are considering an approach that would encourage others to check reported scores. The “watch your back game”, any person discovering and reporting an inaccurate score reported to the league would receive ½, 2/3, or all of whatever point, bracket and pot money the offending team would have received.

5) There could be a hall of shame page for any bowlers caught reporting bad scores.

6) We will take legal action against any bowlers attempting to defraud the league.
How? Your in state "A" the offending person (s) in state "B". unless you plan on charging them with wire fraud across statelines (Federal rap=felony). You would need a local lawyer in their state to file charges. Major $$$ to defend for a misdemeanor charge. Gambling across statelines (Brackets) might have the Feds. coming after you.
Though our other businesses we and our lawyers have had a fair amount of experience in multi state cases. For this league the most likely step would be small claims court. These vary from state to state, in Michigan for example amounts up to $3500.00 can be addressed in small claims. It’s simple, quick, cheap, and no lawyers are needed. It would actually be very good PR to prosecute a visible case to show we are serious. We have investigated for this and our other events (golf tournaments) in all states we have investigated Gambling is defined essentially as outcomes being determined by chance, drawing a card, throwing dice, pulling your number out of a box, etc, a sporting competition with the winners determined by skill is not.
Working out the mix of how to use these and other approaches is where we are now. Thanks again and we appreciate any thoughts on this subject.
A lot of questions would need to be addressed before you could even begin implementation of your online league. You have contacted a Lawyer for legal issues?
Thanks again, these are the kind of questions we are looking for.

[Spinner1]

This would be a nice idea - but my first thought - Rules of USBC say no gambling involving bowling correct? Also like Baroncad said gambling across state lines, I'd be afraid to even take that step.

We do a house bracket each week - it's kinda the same idea, but it's all local in house - and we have a running house jackpot (not league based)

Sounds like you'd need an attorney to help sort out the legality here, watch the USBC - since they have that new building in Texas, they may want a piece of your ideal too to cover even less lifetime awards :rolleyes: (yes - just a small shot at USBC)
Thanks for the post.
We’ve investigated the gambling aspect and sporting events where the outcome is determined by skill, is not considered gambling. Gambling involves outcomes determined by chance like drawing a card, throwing a dice etc. We have done much work to address the legal concerns of this and ut other events (Golfing)
Check out out site www.biggest-dream-tournaments.com (http://www.biggest-dream-tournament.com) for this and other events.
Thanks again