Ten Pin help needed -- Sorry if covered before.

[Arc&Roll]

After leaving 8 ten pins last night and only making 2 of them. I need help. How do you shoot and more importantly MAKE a ten pin? I have gotten many suggestions ranging from equipment to only putting one finger in the ball. 6 Missed ten pins cost me big time. I don't have trouble with any other spare.

What has worked best for you over the years?

[vdubtx]

1) How do you shoot the 6 or 9 pin?

2) Do you use a plastic spare ball?

The way I do it and works for me approx 85% of the time if I maintain my focus on the shot is as follows:

I stand all the way to the left, big toe on Right foot is at the 36 board. I then focus on my target on the lane which for me is the 15 board(3rd arrow from right) and then approach and deliver. For me it took a little trial and error to find what works and I have stuck with it.

We have all likely been there with an issue picking up those pesky corner pins. Usually my problem is when I take my eyes off target during my approach.

Reason I ask about how you pick up the 6 or 9 pin is the 10 pin should only be a few board adjustment to the left and using same target down lane that you use for those pins.(Assuming using plastic/poly equipment)

[Aslan]

Originally I was using a 3-6-9 approach...but it wasn't working. I changed, due to a suggestion by Bunny (thanks!), and used a 4-8-12 approach. That seems to work for the 7 (I'm a righty) but not so much for the 10.

So for the 10 or the 6-10 I use Norm Duke's approach of just throwing cross lane. I'm by no means "good" at it yet. But it is easier once you find that target in the middle of the lane to just aim at that target and throw it straight across.

At the clinic I went to last Saturday, I spoke with Barry Asher about the 10-pin and the conversation went like this:
Barry: See, that was better!
Me: Yeah, but that darn 10-pin is a huge aggravation.
Barry: 10 years from now, if I'm here and you're here...you're going to still be saying that 10-pin is an aggravation. It aggravates everyone, always has, always will.

He then helped me fine tune my shot at the 10-pin by getting me to face it more. He said you want your shoulders parralel to the foul line normally. But if you're shooting cross lane at a corner pin/spare you want to be slightly angled toward the pin/spare you're shooting at.

So I've been trying to remember that. Like I said, I haven't had much success yet...but I'm making more than I used to. Hitting a 10-pin with a normal shot for a righty...using your regular "strike" ball...that was tough. I don't throw a "spare ball". My regular strike ball is a fairly straight ball so it's not necessary. I only throw my urethane/spare ball if I'm trying to pick up a real low % split...because it's dead on straight and it's 1lb lighter so I can control it better.

[J Anderson]

After leaving 8 ten pins last night and only making 2 of them. I need help. How do you shoot and more importantly MAKE a ten pin? I have gotten many suggestions ranging from equipment to only putting one finger in the ball. 6 Missed ten pins cost me big time. I don't have trouble with any other spare.

What has worked best for you over the years?

The first thing that helped me was moving to the extreme left in my set up on the approach, rather than trying to hit it from my normal starting spot.
Next was shooting at the ten pin on the first ball in every frame of warm-ups. Unless you really pull the ball the pocket will still be there for you to find your strike line.
Don't think about it! As in don't think," OH no! It's a Ten Pin" Just set up where you should, focus on your target and throw. If you hit your target and yet miss the pin, then you can think about what adjustment to make so that next time you will get it.

[Terrier]

For my positioning, a friend taught me to stand all the way left, even learned to walk a bit around the ball return if needed. Then, throw it straight on a diagonal, which takes oil conditions out of play and gives the most room for error. I've been doing that since, and later learned it is coached that way a lot.

As for my release, I learned to shoot the 10-pin from watching a Walter Ray Williams, Jr. DVD. He said to bring the hand up the back of the ball on release as if I want to roll the ball over the thumb hole. If you do it right, you'll hear the ball rolling over the hole, but getting close will still get you a straight release. Following this method, I can throw my strike ball at spares without it hooking more than a few boards from dead straight with my strongest ball.

[dnhoffman]

Look, not to discount what anyone here has said but this is a basic mechanical move that while not automatic shouldn't be a question for any bowler.

My suggestion is that you need to work with a coach on this for an hour or two and it will do you a world of wonder.

[Arc&Roll]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am going to have to practice and see what works best for me. I already move as far left as I can to shoot the ten. Normally, I don't have that much difficulty but it seems that i need to flatten the ball out more. Hand position will be a learning curve. Does anyone change which fingers they use to take some revolutions off the shot?

[J Anderson]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am going to have to practice and see what works best for me. I already move as far left as I can to shoot the ten. Normally, I don't have that much difficulty but it seems that i need to flatten the ball out more. Hand position will be a learning curve. Does anyone change which fingers they use to take some revolutions off the shot?

If I have to throw straight with something other than a polyester ball I only put my ring finger and thumb in the ball and keep all four fingers tight together. I have read that spreading the pinky will also help straighten the ball out. Haven't tried it since going straight isn't normally a problem for me.

[vdubtx]

I had never tried using any less than the normal fingers/thumb to try and pick up 10 pin. For me, my normal strike ball I tuck my pinky, but for right side pins where I use my Poly ball I keep pinky straight and in towards the fingers to minimize any chance of me coming around the ball.

[vdubtx]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am going to have to practice and see what works best for me. I already move as far left as I can to shoot the ten. Normally, I don't have that much difficulty but it seems that i need to flatten the ball out more. Hand position will be a learning curve. Does anyone change which fingers they use to take some revolutions off the shot?

Where does your ball go when you try to pick up the 10? Missing to the left or into the channel?

[Mike White]

Originally I was using a 3-6-9 approach...but it wasn't working. I changed, due to a suggestion by Bunny (thanks!), and used a 4-8-12 approach. That seems to work for the 7 (I'm a righty) but not so much for the 10.

So for the 10 or the 6-10 I use Norm Duke's approach of just throwing cross lane. I'm by no means "good" at it yet. But it is easier once you find that target in the middle of the lane to just aim at that target and throw it straight across.

At the clinic I went to last Saturday, I spoke with Barry Asher about the 10-pin and the conversation went like this:
Barry: See, that was better!
Me: Yeah, but that darn 10-pin is a huge aggravation.
Barry: 10 years from now, if I'm here and you're here...you're going to still be saying that 10-pin is an aggravation. It aggravates everyone, always has, always will.

He then helped me fine tune my shot at the 10-pin by getting me to face it more. He said you want your shoulders parralel to the foul line normally. But if you're shooting cross lane at a corner pin/spare you want to be slightly angled toward the pin/spare you're shooting at.

So I've been trying to remember that. Like I said, I haven't had much success yet...but I'm making more than I used to. Hitting a 10-pin with a normal shot for a righty...using your regular "strike" ball...that was tough. I don't throw a "spare ball". My regular strike ball is a fairly straight ball so it's not necessary. I only throw my urethane/spare ball if I'm trying to pick up a real low % split...because it's dead on straight and it's 1lb lighter so I can control it better.

Get a cheap plastic ball and polish the crap out of it.. I used Mequiar's Ultimate Compound just once about a year ago, and my plastic ball still doesn't hook an inch.

If you throw at a 10 pin (or 7 pin) with your expensive strike ball, and the ball goes into the gutter, bad (expensive) things can happen, which is another reason to use a cheap plastic ball for spares.

[e-tank]

for whatever reason i find im most accurate with 10 pins when i suitcase release. Prob only missed a handful of 10 pins since ive been doing it

[Aslan]

I just watched Earl Anthony's 5-part instructional videos and his explanation of picking up spares was really informative. After watching that, I think I'm gonna be far more confident about it.

[GeoLes]

If you are a right handed hook bowler, it is very helpful to know the path of your first ball through the pins. Traditionally, the standard hook rolls through 1-3-5-and 8 pin. In short no adjustment is required to drop the 8 pin, Just throw a strike ball

[Mike White]

If you are a right handed hook bowler, it is very helpful to know the path of your first ball through the pins. Traditionally, the standard hook rolls through 1-3-5-and 8 pin. In short no adjustment is required to drop the 8 pin, Just throw a strike ball

Traditionally the ball the ball rolls through the 1-3-5-9 for a right hander. It's with the modern bowling ball that the ball leaves the pin deck between the 8-9.

Depending on why you left the 8 pin to begin with, throwing the strike ball may not hit the 8 pin.

For example, your shot is almost parallel to the lane, and just inside the oil line.. the ball is still skidding as it hits the pocket causing almost an 8-10 split.
Throw that shot again and you won't hit the 8 pin.

[J Anderson]

If you are a right handed hook bowler, it is very helpful to know the path of your first ball through the pins. Traditionally, the standard hook rolls through 1-3-5-and 8 pin. In short no adjustment is required to drop the 8 pin, Just throw a strike ball

Without the 1 and 5 pins to provide resistance, even a modestly hooking strike ball will miss the nine pin.

[Mike White]

Without the 1 and 5 pins to provide resistance, even a modestly hooking strike ball will miss the nine pin.

I have to disagree with "modestly hooking".

For a ball that would make contact with the headpin at a position to drive the headpin into the 7 pin, would have to have 6 degrees of angle or more, to miss the 9 pin on the left.

[J Anderson]

I have to disagree with "modestly hooking".

For a ball that would make contact with the headpin at a position to drive the headpin into the 7 pin, would have to have 6 degrees of angle or more, to miss the 9 pin on the left.

What I mean is, if you throw what is in today's game a modest hook, the line you use to get to the pocket will miss the 9 pin if headpin and the 5 are not there. For example your normal strike line is straight down the tenth board with just enough hook hit solidly in the pocket. Your first ball is just the slightest bit off and leaves the 9 pin. While your first ball just barely missed hitting the 9, if you throw that line again with no pins to deflect it the ball will exit the pin deck by the 8 pin position.

[Mike White]

What I mean is, if you throw what is in today's game a modest hook, the line you use to get to the pocket will miss the 9 pin if headpin and the 5 are not there. For example your normal strike line is straight down the tenth board with just enough hook hit solidly in the pocket. Your first ball is just the slightest bit off and leaves the 9 pin. While your first ball just barely missed hitting the 9, if you throw that line again with no pins to deflect it the ball will exit the pin deck by the 8 pin position.

Pocket... (assuming Right Handed) To most people seems to mean the ball hits the headpin on the right side so the ball also hits the 3 pin.
Thats a very wide definition of pocket.
I described the head pin being driven into the 7 pin to be more specific in my description of the "pocket".

As you move your head pin impact point further left (your "slightest bit off") the ball deflects less right from the head pin impact and more left from the 3 pin impact.

Without out the pins to deflect the ball both right and left, your ball would hit the 9 pin.

[bowl1820]

In regard to the pocket.

A 2.5 inch offset is basically the perfect strike hit for all entry angles and all ball weights. The strike pocket is approximately 17.5 boards in from the right, or the same from the left for left-handers.

http://s5.postimg.org/w2qm5d1l3/pocket.jpg

Here's the pocket showing 0°-2°-4°-6° entry angles
http://s5.postimg.org/xvb5apt8n/entryangles.jpg

[Mike White]

In regard to the pocket.

A 2.5 inch offset is basically the perfect strike hit for all entry angles and all ball weights. The strike pocket is approximately 17.5 boards in from the right, or the same from the left for left-handers.

http://s5.postimg.org/w2qm5d1l3/pocket.jpg

Here's the pocket showing 0°-2°-4°-6° entry angles
http://s5.postimg.org/xvb5apt8n/entryangles.jpg

I don't know where you got your info and images but i'd question it's validity.

First off, lets not confuse inches and "boards".

The lane is 41.5 (+- 1/2 ) inches wide, and consists of 39 "boards".
That means each board is approximately 1 1/16" inch wide.

The head pin while sitting on the 20 board, is more accurately centered at 19.5 boards from the edge of the lane, or 20.75" from the edge of the lane.

The pin diameter at point of impact is about 4.72".
The ball diameter is about 8.595"

This means at impact, the vertical center line of the pin is about 6.66 inches from the center of the ball.

Since we want to drive the head pin directly towards the 7 pin we need to impact the pin on a line 30 degrees counter clockwise thru the center of the head pin.

This puts the offset from the vertical center line of the head pin to the center of the ball at 3.33" (6.66*sin(30)) in the cross lane direction.

20.75 - 3.33 = 17.42, 17.42 / (1 1/16) = 16.4 So the true pocket is approximately the 16.4 board

[bowl1820]

I don't know where you got your info and images but i'd question it's validity.

Well the first image is mine the 2nd is is from the USBC Pin Carry Study. and the info is based on USBC info and a John Williams
(BTBA National Coach) article.

Link
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/pinCarryStudy.pdf

I'll post the question "Okay, just where is the pocket????" over at bowlingchat with both our views and see what they come up with.
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8732&p=69526#p69526

The only other I can say is The head pin is centered on the 20 board and the offset is measured from the center of it, so a 2.5" offset places at approx. the 17.5 board.




--------------------------------
by John Williams
(BTBA National Coach)

"Technically, the strike pocket is measured by 'offsets', that is the distance between the centre of the ball and the centre of the head pin.

If the centre of the ball was in direct line with the centre of the head pin, then this would be called 'zero offset'.

A 2.5 inch offset is basically the perfect strike hit for all entry angles and all ball weights. If you remember my article of last December about the 'Basic Adjustment' for getting your ball into the pocket, there is 12 inches between the centre of the head pin and the centre of the 3-pin and also between the centre of the head pin and the centre of the 2-pin. There are normally 39 boards in a lane and the width is between 41.5 and 42 inches, so each board is more or less 1.076", so the strike pocket is approximately 17.5 boards in from the right, or the same from the left for left-handers."

------------------------------

Here's from Bowlingball.coms page about the pocket

The center of the pocket is located on the 17.5 board on the pindeck. Using a right handed bowler as the example, the pocket is on the 17.5 board counting from the right edge of the lane. The center of the "head pin" pin spot on the pin deck is located on the 20 board, the exact center of the bowling lane.


------------
entry angle stuff

And heres something from walter rays site with some math. (WRW has a Bachelor of Science degree in Physics and a minor in Mathematics)

A guy said "I was attempting to enter the pocket at about 33 degrees"

wrw responded:
"If you were able to get your ball to enter at a 33 degree angle into the pocket the ball would probably miss the 8 pin to the left. Unless the lane was oiled to 59 feet and you put a lot of side roll on the ball I don't think you are going to get more than 10 degrees of entering angle. The big crankers like Tommy Jones and Sean Rash can get the ball to come back from 5 at 45' on some of the PBA patterns. A little math gives a distance of 180" (60'-45'= 15*12= 180) and 13" right to left (5 to 17 board)*(14/13)= 12.9 . Take the inverse tangent of .0722 and that gives you an angle of 4.13 degrees. To get a 33 degree angle you would have to have the ball on the 9.75 board at 1 foot from the head pin. Tangent of 33 degrees is .649 which would have to equal the boards crossed divided by the distance down the lane to the pins. A board normally equals 14/13 inch (42 inches wide and 39 boards). Good luck."


---------------------
About entry angle
quote:I was under the impression that the angle was determined on how many boards the ball covered X amount of feet from the pocket. Example. If the ball covered 6 boards the last 3 feet the angle was 6.

That would be
Backend Boards Covered (BBC): This is the total number of boards covered or crossed from the breakpoint board(X) to the entry board (17)

Example: entry board (17)- board (11)= 6 boards covered.

Using WRW's forumla
The entry angle here is about 10 Degrees.
60'-57'=3'=36" from the pins
17 board - 11 board = 6 boards
6 boards*(14/13)=6.46
6.46/36=.1794
The inverse tangent of .1794 = 10.17 degrees

[dnhoffman]

Well... That about settles that, lol.

[Mike White]

Well the first image is mine the 2nd is is from the USBC Pin Carry Study. and the info is based on USBC info and a John Williams
(BTBA National Coach) article.

Link
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/pinCarryStudy.pdf

I'll post the question "Okay, just where is the pocket????" over at bowlingchat with both our views and see what they come up with.
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8732&p=69526#p69526

The only other I can say is The head pin is centered on the 20 board and the offset is measured from the center of it, so a 2.5" offset places at approx. the 17.5 board.




--------------------------------
by John Williams
(BTBA National Coach)

...

------------------------------

Here's from Bowlingball.coms page about the pocket

...

------------
entry angle stuff

And heres something from walter rays site with some math. (WRW has a Bachelor of Science degree in Physics and a minor in Mathematics)

...

---------------------
About entry angle

....



First off Mr Williams.

He is inconsistent with his own calculations.
If the pocket is 17.5 board from the edge of the lane, and each board is 42/39", the pocket would be 18.8" from the edge of the lane.
Add the 2.5" offset and the center of the headpin would be 21.35" from the edge of the lane, making the lane 42.69" wide.

Second... Bowlingball.com ...
Rich Carrubba.. need I say more?

Finally Walter Ray....
WRW places the pocket on the 17th board, which is in agreement with what I've stated.
The center of the 17th board is 16.5 boards from the edge of the lane.
I stated the pocket was 16.4 boards from the edge with would also place the ball on the 17th board.

[bowl1820]

First off Mr Williams.

He is inconsistent with his own calculations.
If the pocket is 17.5 board from the edge of the lane, and each board is 42/39", the pocket would be 18.8" from the edge of the lane.
Add the 2.5" offset and the center of the headpin would be 21.35" from the edge of the lane, making the lane 42.69" wide.

Second... Bowlingball.com ...
Rich Carrubba.. need I say more?

Finally Walter Ray....
WRW places the pocket on the 17th board, which is in agreement with what I've stated.
The center of the 17th board is 16.5 boards from the edge of the lane.

Okay Mike your right and everybody else is wrong.
While your going around showing everyone your new way of locating the PAP,You might add this information along with it to get everyone up to speed. Oh and contact the USBC also so they can update also.

Let them know over at insidebowling.com too they got it wrong also:

Understanding Entry Angle
Last month we discussed the importance of entry angle for pin carry. This month, we'll look at where the ball needs to be to create that entry angle.

We have long believed, and USBC has confirmed, that an entry angle of about 6 degrees improved strike percentage. USBC studies also showed that the best strike percentage occurred when the ball enters the pins at the 17.5 board.

Below you see the trigonometric formula for determining what the entry angles really mean in terms we actually can use on the lanes. The formulas assume that each board is 1" wide (although actually each is about 1.05" wide, so that 39 of them equal the 41" wide lane surface). At the edge of the lane, the ball is 17.5 boards from the entry board. If we know how far the ball is from the pins, we can determine what board it should be on for any given entry angle.
http://www.insidebowling.com/Assets/Images/coaching/022010_trig.png




I stated the pocket was 16.4 boards from the edge with would also place the ball on the 17th board.

Okay lets see here.

You say here the pocket is 16.4 "boards" from the edge, this places the ball on the 17th "board".

And I posted the pocket is approx. on the 17.5 board, So wow we are only off half a board now.

So we are almost in agreement!

[Mike White]

Okay Mike your right and everybody else is wrong.
While your going around showing everyone your new way of locating the PAP,You might add this information along with it to get everyone up to speed. Oh and contact the USBC also so they can update also.




Okay lets see here.

You say here the pocket is 16.4 "boards" from the edge, this places the ball on the 17th "board".

And I posted the pocket is approx. on the 17.5 board, So wow we are only off half a board now.


Or is it your inconsistent with your calculations, Remember you said " First off, lets not confuse inches and "boards"."

You said 17.5 board from the edge, which would place it on the middle of the 18 board.
You like the others seem to think that 17.5 boards from the edge plus the 2.5" offset would be the middle of the lane.

Work out the numbers for yourself. Don't assume what someone has told you in the past is true.
Especially when many of your sources are simply repeating what was told to them.

[bowl1820]

You said 17.5 board from the edge, which would place it on the middle of the 18 board.
You like the others seem to think that 17.5 boards from the edge plus the 2.5" offset would be the middle of the lane.

Work out the numbers for yourself. Don't assume what someone has told you in the past is true.
Especially when many of your sources are simply repeating what was told to them.

Sorry I updated my post above while you were posting.

Mike I had already had worked it out.

A 2.5" offset from the center of the headpin is almost right on the line between the 17 & 18 boards. If you look at the USBC pic above the 2.5"offset line with the 0° entry line is right on the line between 17&18

And like they said above the formulas used assume that each board is 1" wide. Even though they know the actual size.

Given if the center of a board is the "board", then half way between 17 & 18 would be 17 and a half board .

Did they state it the most accurate way they could? No maybe not.

They could have just said the best strike pocket for a right hander is 2.5" from the center of the headpin and left it at that. But they didn't

I also think they said 17.5 board because most bowlers would understand and visualize that easier, than saying a "2.5" offset" or x number of inches from the edge.

[Zaxmazr]

Here's how I shoot my 10 pin:

http://i.imgur.com/N2K9Ozc.png

I just cant go across lane for some reason!

[Mike White]

Sorry I updated my post above while you were posting.

Mike I had already had worked it out.



You claim you worked it out..

How did you come up with 2.5"

Taking someone's word for it doesn't count as working it out.

All of the figures I presented are backed up by USBC Equipment Specifications.

The 17.5, 16.4 etc values are flexible based on the width of the lane..
At my center, they measure 41.5" but I don't assume all places measure the same.
The offset however isn't based on the width of the lane.

The lane could be 10 feet wide with no side boards.

As long as the pins were still spaced 12 inches apart at the centers, there would be a specific offset.

And I contend it would be 3.33"

I showed how to calculate the 3.33" offset, and the reason for it being the optimum location.

As far as the 1-2-4-7 is concerned, the angle of entry only varies the amount of force that is applied to the head pin, it does nothing to the direction the head pin travels.

A left hander crossing over could contact the headpin at 3.33" offset. This would create a lot less force on the head pin, yet it would still travel directly towards the 2, 4, 7.

[bowl1820]

You claim you worked it out..

How did you come up with 2.5"

Taking someone's word for it doesn't count as working it out.

All of the figures I presented are backed up by USBC Equipment Specifications.

And the 2.5" offset was shown by the USBC Pin Carry study so thats backed up by the USBC also.

Now no I didn't perform a study myself to see what offset offered the best pin carry. I don't have the cats system and all the other equipment to do a pin carry study myself.

What study did you do to determine 3.33" is the optimum location?



The 17.5, 16.4 etc values are flexible based on the width of the lane..
At my center, they measure 41.5" but I don't assume all places measure the same.
I agree and I never said otherwise.



The offset however isn't based on the width of the lane.
I never said it was.


The lane could be 10 feet wide with no side boards.

As long as the pins were still spaced 12 inches apart at the centers, there would be a specific offset.
I agree with that.



And I contend it would be 3.33"

I showed how to calculate the 3.33" offset, and the reason for it being the optimum location.

Yes you calculated a 3.33" offset, but that's not proof of it being the optimum location.

Here's from the USBC pin carry study:
It shows a 2.5" offset from the head pin had the highest percentage of strikes.

As for the 3.33" offset let's see, it decreased strikes by almost 20% and increased 10 pin leaves by the same amount. Hmmm optimum location?

http://s5.postimg.org/51i1epufb/USBC_Pin_Carry_Study_01.jpg



As far as the 1-2-4-7 is concerned, the angle of entry only varies the amount of force that is applied to the head pin, it does nothing to the direction the head pin travels.

A left hander crossing over could contact the headpin at 3.33" offset. This would create a lot less force on the head pin, yet it would still travel directly towards the 2, 4, 7.
Yes, I agree a ball crossing over would create a lot less force on the head pin. I never said it didn't.


You know what Mike, we're not going to agree. You showed your side and Me mine. It's up to everyone else to decide who they want to go with.

[J Anderson]

http://s5.postimg.org/51i1epufb/USBC_Pin_Carry_Study_01.jpg

You know what Mike, we're not going to agree. You showed your side and Me mine. It's up to everyone else to decide who they want to go with.

I don't think I'm going with either one of you. The pocket is not a single point. Even if it were the average person can not see a half inch difference at 60', let alone hit it consistently.

Looking at the graph that Bowl1820 posted I would say the pocket is that area where the strike percentage is greater than or equal to 95.

[bowl1820]

I don't think I'm going with either one of you. The pocket is not a single point. Even if it were the average person can not see a half inch difference at 60', let alone hit it consistently.

Looking at the graph that Bowl1820 posted I would say the pocket is that area where the strike percentage is greater than or equal to 95.

And I agree with you J. You don't have to hit that exact spot and nobody is going to hit it consistently.

All I said is that the pocket is generally considered at approx. the 17.5 board. Which is the half way point between the center points of the 17 & 18 boards.

And that the studies showed a 2.5" offset offered the highest percentages of strikes and that point falls at that spot on the boards.





And I apologize to the O.P. For us hijacking this thread.

[Zaxmazr]

Wow this thread got very mathematical..making my head spin!

[Mike White]

I don't think I'm going with either one of you. The pocket is not a single point. Even if it were the average person can not see a half inch difference at 60', let alone hit it consistently.

Looking at the graph that Bowl1820 posted I would say the pocket is that area where the strike percentage is greater than or equal to 95.

Back in early August I was at a trade show, talking to one of the ball reps from either Storm, or Motiv. If it was Storm it would have been Boomershine.

The topic of that angle of entry test came up. The testing method was described as a ramp delivery system to control the angle, "offset", and speed of the ball.

The "offset" is related to the probability of getting the 7 pin out.

The deflection is related to the probability of getting the 10 pin out.

Since a ball on a ramp has no axis tilt, it effectively has rolled out.

When a ball has rolled out, it has to hit higher (less offset), to carry the 10 pin, but too high and you leave a 7 or 4 pin.

The graph only focused on the strike and ten pin.

[bowl1820]

Back in early August I was at a trade show, talking to one of the ball reps from either Storm, or Motiv. If it was Storm it would have been Boomershine.

The topic of that angle of entry test came up. The testing method was described as a ramp delivery system to control the angle, "offset", and speed of the ball.

The "offset" is related to the probability of getting the 7 pin out.

The deflection is related to the probability of getting the 10 pin out.

Since a ball on a ramp has no axis tilt, it effectively has rolled out.

When a ball has rolled out, it has to hit higher (less offset), to carry the 10 pin, but too high and you leave a 7 or 4 pin.

The graph only focused on the strike and ten pin.

Wow this topic just happened to come up at trade show back in August, funny you acted like you never heard any of this before back at the beginning of this conversation. I know you forgot and just remembered.

Now they may have used a ramp back when they first came up with this.

But in the usbc pin carry study they tested speed and rev dominate type bowlers and balanced types and used 3 different ball types.

I think they had some tilt on the ball and it wasn't rolled out. And it still showed 2.5 had the highest strike percentage.

Be that as it may.

You said the the optimal location is 3.33" well prove it.

Post your test data, the videos of the tests etc. not just some lane specs with a couple of numbers added or subtracted.

The 2.5" offset at least has been tested and has some data backing it up and grant you even the Usbc says they need updated data at least they have some.

As I said before

We stated our cases, let everyone make up their own minds.

Of course we both know your right and I'm wrong and anyone agreeing with me is wrong also.

Update: I just found some new info Mike is right, he doesn't even have to prove it now. And the thread can go back to being about ten pins, (everyone shouts Hooray!)