Help with drilling layout questions

[Aslan]

Okay...I've looked around here and there for information...and while I sort of "get it"...it's very confusing.

So I thought I'd get some opinions from you expert ball drillers out there of how you explain it and what you'd recommend.

Attached is a picture of my current ball. Now, for my next ball...obviously my hand hasn't really changed much...but maybe I'm looking for slightly more reaction or different reaction.

So if I come in with that layout (picture) as my starting point (pin seems to be "up" and to the right of the right finger hole, cg seems to be midway between the thumb and finger holes) and the pro asks me about my game and I say this:

"I've had trouble adjusting to synthetic lanes and higher oil. I'm buying a stronger ball to help that (like a Hammer Arson just for the sake of the example) but would also like a "slight tweek" to pin position to help that. I consider myself a stroker that tends to play the standard 10-board/2nd arrow. My ball speed is rather high, 17-20mph...I try to get it lower on synthetics to give the ball time to react but it messes with my natural swing. And for various reasons my rev rate is rather low. I don't know what it is or why it's low...probably because I'm releasing late/higher loft/keeping my thumb in too long, etc..."

So there's the current layout, the brief bio of the player and his style. The player is now looking for a ball that when thrown a bit fast and towards the center more (heavier oil)...will still hook into the pocket. You watch the player throw a few balls and you see that if he plays the 2nd arrow...where he wants to play...the ball is just going too fast and hitting right or the pocket...very little hook.

Now...as a pro...you obviously have ALL KINDS of advice for this player and how he should do this different or that different...but this question is simply about how you'd drill the new ball (Hammer Arson as the example) differently than how the Frantic was drilled to help the player get the reaction he's looking for. Also, if you can, maybe explain "why" you'd drill it that way...because while I'm interested because I will be having a ball drilled in the future...I'm also using this example simply as a learning exercise to better understand layouts/drilling.

Thanks!
1054

[Mike White]

If you get a chance, swing by this Sunday. I can watch you bowl a game or two and we can go over what layout changes do what to the ball, and which changes would benefit you.

[Aslan]

If you get a chance, swing by this Sunday. I can watch you bowl a game or two and we can go over what layout changes do what to the ball, and which changes would benefit you.

Well..OF COURSE I'm gonna do that!! I just want to hear a few more tri-grip stories so I know for sure thats the way I want to go. But absolutely, I'll be out to see you...new ball in hand...once you have a couple more impressions of the tri-grip.

I was just asking as a "general knowledge" thing because I've watched like 3 different videos on drilling patterns and it's like it's in chinese or something...can't make heads or tails.

So I won't be out this Sunday. If you're sold on the tri-grip...I could swing by Saturday AM. I have a poker tournament Saturday afternoon this weekend instead of Sunday morning (my usual time each weekend). But I'm mainly just waiting to see if thats the way I want to go or not. If not, I'll probably still take you up on watching me, recommending a drilling pattern and drilling the ball though...even if it's not the Bill Hall tri-grip.

[MICHAEL]

The Tri-Grip will take you place you have never dreamed!! Many advantages, if done right! Do IT!! Better ball balance, ball feels lighter, more rev's because the thumb gets out quicker, even better direction of rotation ,,, just a little of the magic you would experience!! Tell Mike, if you like, he can call Bruce Postal if he has any questions at BP Pro Shop here in independence MO. 7

[Aslan]

The Tri-Grip will take you place you have never dreamed!! Many advantages, if done right! Do IT!! Better ball balance, ball feels lighter, more rev's because the thumb gets out quicker, even better direction of rotation ,,, just a little of the magic you would experience!! Tell Mike, if you like, he can call Bruce Postal if he has any questions at BP Pro Shop here in independence MO. 7

I trust the Iceman...I just want Mike to give it a couple more tries...that way he'll have a good feel for how it works and will be better able to recommend a good layout for me.

[Stormed1]

With higher ball speed you will want a smaller deill angle to get the ball started earlier on oil. You will also want a strong pin to PAP distance (3.5-4") Your VAL angle determines how fast the ball will respond to friction

[Mike White]

I trust the Iceman...I just want Mike to give it a couple more tries...that way he'll have a good feel for how it works and will be better able to recommend a good layout for me.

I would suggest to first drill a low end ball with the tri-grip to see how it comes off your hand differently.
Your PAP location will most likely change, as may axis tilt, axis rotation, rev rate, and less likely ball speed.

[Mike White]

The Tri-Grip will take you place you have never dreamed!! Many advantages, if done right! Do IT!! Better ball balance, ball feels lighter, more rev's because the thumb gets out quicker, even better direction of rotation ,,, just a little of the magic you would experience!! Tell Mike, if you like, he can call Bruce Postal if he has any questions at BP Pro Shop here in independence MO. 7

ICE you sound like a religious zealot. The things that you sense as working may not work for others.

The only real difference I felt was the ball hung in a straighter line from shoulder-elbow-wrist-ball.
For me the thumb didn't come out quicker because I already had a quick release thumb via reverse and right pitch.
My reverse/right thumb pitch allowed me to achieve 700+ RPM back when I had a 20-30 year old body.

[Aslan]

With higher ball speed you will want a smaller deill angle to get the ball started earlier on oil. You will also want a strong pin to PAP distance (3.5-4") Your VAL angle determines how fast the ball will respond to friction

Smaller "deill angle"? "Strong" pin to PAP? "Val angle"?

For those of us not super-used-to the jargon...on the picture I used as the example...what does that mean in terms of the pin and CG? For example...

From what I've read online...maybe having the pin a little lower and closer to the cg would give me better results (based on sample scenario).

On THIS (http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/Drilling.aspx) website, they give a layout for high track, high speed players using something called "dual angle". Their suggested layout would be:

Sample DUAL ANGLE Layouts
High Track Players (with PAP more than 5-¼" over)

Desired Result: Strong Midlane - Heavy Forward Roll
Drilling Angle: 50°
Pin to PAP: 4 in
Angle to the VAL: 35°
Use: Speed dominant players and/or for heavier oil volumes
Recommended Pin Distance: 2 to 5-½ in
Traditional Pin to PAP distance: 4 in
Traditional MB to PAP distance: 4-⅝ in
Traditional Pin to VAL distance: 2 in

I'm assuming "high track" is the 5-10 boards, typical stroker shot? But as you can see...for a person who is a beginner at this stuff....the terminology is a KILLER!

[Mike White]

Smaller "deill angle"? "Strong" pin to PAP? "Val angle"?

For those of us not super-used-to the jargon...on the picture I used as the example...what does that mean in terms of the pin and CG? For example...

From what I've read online...maybe having the pin a little lower and closer to the cg would give me better results (based on sample scenario).

On THIS (http://www.morichbowling.com/Education/Drilling.aspx) website, they give a layout for high track, high speed players using something called "dual angle". Their suggested layout would be:

Sample DUAL ANGLE Layouts
High Track Players (with PAP more than 5-¼" over)

Desired Result: Strong Midlane - Heavy Forward Roll
Drilling Angle: 50°
Pin to PAP: 4 in
Angle to the VAL: 35°
Use: Speed dominant players and/or for heavier oil volumes
Recommended Pin Distance: 2 to 5-½ in
Traditional Pin to PAP distance: 4 in
Traditional MB to PAP distance: 4-⅝ in
Traditional Pin to VAL distance: 2 in

I'm assuming "high track" is the 5-10 boards, typical stroker shot? But as you can see...for a person who is a beginner at this stuff....the terminology is a KILLER!


Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Bring your questions and I'll get you understanding all the jargon.

[Aslan]

I would suggest to first drill a low end ball with the tri-grip to see how it comes off your hand differently.
Your PAP location will most likely change, as may axis tilt, axis rotation, rev rate, and less likely ball speed.

What would constitute a "low end ball"? How much it originally cost, or how much I paid for it? I get most of my balls on clearance...so the most I've paid is $79.99. I paid full retail for the Frantic, $85-$105 range....so I guess "technically" thats my most expensive ball. But in terms of their actual retail value...3 of the 4 balls sitting in my closet were $220-$225 originally and those 3 are going for about $85-$189 on most online sites now. The lowest end ball I have in terms of original price AND it's "performance level" is the Slingshot...which I believe was $115ish new...I ended up getting one on clearance for $56.99.

The next ball I want drilled is a Hammer Rhythm. I'm the kinda guy that would normally just say...drill it tri-grip and lets go! I'll adapt. But...if you think (and you're going to watch me bowl a few frames before we decide) that maybe drilling that ball in a normal fingertip manner would be better...and maybe having the Frantic plugged and drilled tri-grip (to try it out)...or down the road having the Slingshot drilled tri-grip...I'd consider that.

I just think IF I really like the tri-grip...then I'm gonna be torn about having the Rhythm re-drilled tri-grip. And if I have the Slingshot drilled tri-grip and I hate it...then I'll have to have it plugged and re-drilled...which is almost price prohibitive given it'd cost more to drill/plug/drill that ball than it cost for the ball. Maybe another option is, if you have a ball drilled tri-grip...I could try a few frames with it?? If it feels okay...drill the Rhythm up tri-grip. If I hate it...drill it up regular?? I have 4 undrilled balls in my closet...worst case I have the Hammer drilled tri-grip and use it for awhile...decide I don't like it (sorry Iceman's religion)...and have the next ball drilled up differently. But I'm pretty adaptive in terms of grips. My back-up/spare/splits ball is conventional drilled, not for my hand, with 3 finger holes...and I can use it for a weird split and go right back to bowling fingertip no problem. Some players (Norm Duke) say they'd rather not use a "spare ball" than use one with drastically different grips because they really don't like going from one grip to another during a game/frame.

The other drilling question I have is...what about a pinky finger hole? In my old conventional drilled ball, it has 3 finger holes and a thumb hole. The REASON behind that...is it used to belong to my grandfather and he had moderate arthritis in his wrist/hand...and it was believed that drilling that extra finger hole would cause less stress on the hand/wrist. I really liked it...I felt like I had far more control over the ball with that 3rd hole there. However, when I went to fingertip grip...it didn't occur to me to have an extra finger hole drilled...until the pro shop guy mentioned after drilling the ball...that he has an extra finger hole drilled on most of his balls. Yet whenever anyone sees my old 14lb urethane with 3 finger holes...people act like they've discovered an alligator living in their closet...they've never seen such a thing! Is it still common practice to drill a 3rd finger hole for older/arthritic bowlers? Can you drill a 3rd finger hole using fingertip grip? Would that extra pinky finger being in the ball decrease rev rate? Increase rev rate? Anyone else have experience using a 3-finger grip?

On the one hand....I am committed to improving my game and using the Frantic...raising my average, going after clean games, improving my spare shooting. My plan was not to switch balls till March 2014. On the other hand...like a kid with a pocket full of allowance money...I am SUPER anxious to start using the Rhythm. I love the way it looks...I think it's an interesting ball and one you don't see at the lanes very often...and it has a perfectscale rating of 211.3 versus my Frantic (187.9)...so I'm looking forward to the help it will give me on hooking into the pocket especially on heavy oil synthetic lanes.

On wood/drier lanes, I actually plan to continue to use the Frantic until May 2014 when the lanes I bowl at switch to synthetics. Then I plan to use the Frantic as my back-up/spare ball and switch to the Rhythm as my primary ball. My Frantic gives me enough of a hook...all be it not "awesome"....but good enough for me to be competitive on wood/drier lanes. But I really struggle on synthetics/heavy oil and am forced into playing the 15 board/straight shot with the Frantic...virtually no flare on the back end. Yes, there are things I can do to get more reaction...a shorter approach...shortened backswing...less strength added to forward swing...setting the ball down eariler and smoother. But I've struggled making those changes. They are all great suggestions...but I can score in the 120s-150s throwing a straight ball...or I can throw in the 100s-120s with an altered approach/release. But, it's a work in progress. My hope is by April 1st 2014 (Spring Nationals in Vegas) to have my synthetic lane issues resolved. Whether that means becoming proficient with a straight ball (they did it in the 50s and 60s...so I can do it too), getting a performance bump from a stronger ball, or tweaking my approach/release...everything is on the table....work in progress. If I can bowl 180-225 on wood lanes...theres no reason I can't bowl 150-190 on synthetics. And..."no" (before the question is asked) I don't plan on winning at nationals. It was just a goal of mine to participate and it'll be more like a fun little vacation, totally about the experience. No dillusions of grandjeur.

[Aslan]

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Bring your questions and I'll get you understanding all the jargon.

Can't THIS Sunday...but I'll definitely be over on a future Sunday. I travel from Yorba Linda to Temecula all but one Sunday a month for poker. This weekend just happens to be the one "exception weekend". And given my luck lately...I'll get knocked out of the torunament on Sundays with PLENTY of time to swing by Riverside on my way back to Yorba Linda. :mad:

[Stormed1]

On your Frantic the drill angle would be measured by drawing a line from the pin through the cg, and drawing a second line from the pin to your PAP. The angle formed by these two lines is your drill angle. The bigger this angle the later the ball goes into the hook phase. The pin to PAP measurement is self explanitory. 3 3/8 inches will give you the most flare the ball is capable of. The farther or closer from 3 3/8 away the less flare. The VAL angle is measured by a line from the center of you grip horizontaly and a perpindicular line that gots through your PAP> The angle between this line and the line from your PAP to the pin is your VAL angle. The smaller that angle the faster the ball responds to friction (angular) Presuming a generic standard axis point your Frantic looks approximatly 4x80x40

[Mike White]

On your Frantic the drill angle would be measured by drawing a line from the pin through the cg, and drawing a second line from the pin to your PAP. The angle formed by these two lines is your drill angle. The bigger this angle the later the ball goes into the hook phase. The pin to PAP measurement is self explanitory. 3 3/8 inches will give you the most flare the ball is capable of. The farther or closer from 3 3/8 away the less flare. The VAL angle is measured by a line from the center of you grip horizontaly and a perpindicular line that gots through your PAP> The angle between this line and the line from your PAP to the pin is your VAL angle. The smaller that angle the faster the ball responds to friction (angular) Presuming a generic standard axis point your Frantic looks approximatly 4x80x40

A couple of points. The Frantic is a symmetrical core ball.

The position of the CG (Center of Gravity mark) has no effect on the drill angle.

The PSA (Preferred Spin Axis) on an un-drilled symmetrical ball is everywhere on the equator (the Pin would be the North Pole).

The PSA of a drilled symmetrical ball is usually the thumb hole. A deTerminator is used to confirm the drilled location.

Pin to PAP giving the most flare at 3 3/8" inches is true for symmetrical cores, but not true for asymmetrical cores.

As for your description of the Val angle.
I don't like the "faster the ball responds to friction" phrase, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
It just doesn't match my understanding of what the Val angle effects.

[Mike White]

What would constitute a "low end ball"? How much it originally cost, or how much I paid for it? I get most of my balls on clearance...so the most I've paid is $79.99. I paid full retail for the Frantic, $85-$105 range....so I guess "technically" thats my most expensive ball. But in terms of their actual retail value...3 of the 4 balls sitting in my closet were $220-$225 originally and those 3 are going for about $85-$189 on most online sites now. The lowest end ball I have in terms of original price AND it's "performance level" is the Slingshot...which I believe was $115ish new...I ended up getting one on clearance for $56.99.

We can't put your first tri-grip in a ball, and give you the exact dual angle layout you need because your release will change due to the grip.

So it is better if the first ball you get a tri-grip on is not your expensive high performance ball.

Use something that won't bother you if it needs to be redrilled in the future.

A plastic ball is a perfect candidate because the "layout" of a plastic ball is almost meaningless.

The goal of a plastic ball is to skid 60 feet.

[Aslan]

We can't put your first tri-grip in a ball, and give you the exact dual angle layout you need because your release will change due to the grip.

So it is better if the first ball you get a tri-grip on is not your expensive high performance ball.

Use something that won't bother you if it needs to be redrilled in the future.

A plastic ball is a perfect candidate because the "layout" of a plastic ball is almost meaningless.

The goal of a plastic ball is to skid 60 feet.

Hmm...dilemma.

I don't want to plug and redrill my Frantic. My Frantic works well as it is on low-oil/wood lanes.

And I don't want to buy some plastic ball just to have it drilled tri-grip. When would I ever throw a plastic ball?

I could have my urethane ball plugged and re-drilled tri-grip...but man...then I'm paying to plug and re-drill a ball that I rarely ever use...plus I mostly keep it around for sentimental reasons because it was my grandpa's.

Hmmm...I'll have to think on this a bit. :confused: