Gravity swing can increase your scores......

[Hammer]

I find that when I muscle the ball with my arm muscles two things can happen. One is that my ball will hit the pocket light and I will leave a lot of 7 or 10 pins or not so favorable other pin or pins leave. The other is usually a pulled shot that sometimes gets lucky for a Brooklyn strike. It seems muscling the ball does not let the ball work like it is supposed to to get good pocket hits and pin carry. Usually with muscling the ball comes gripping harder on the way down which will help only in giving you the two problems I talked about at the beginning of this post. This type of technique is also good for rev killing. This will also cause you to turn your hand early before the release which is not good. Chances are when you do this your thumb will be hanging up in the ball. I turned my hand early one time and my thumb hung up and I had a bowling ball coming back to my face. YIKES!

I decided to let gravity do the work and give my arm a break. I started throwing my first ball like I do when I am shooting at a 7 pin-I am left handed. I found that when I use the gravity I can hit my 7 pins all day. When I would miss them it was because I would muscle the ball and end up in the gutter before the pin or pulling the shot and missing the 7 pin by 1/8 of an inch on it's right side. With the gravity swing my ball is able to do what it is designed to do because it has the time to work right. Because of this it is easier to make adjustments when the lanes change because I have a consistent release. The ball isn't faster one frame and slower the next. With the gravity swing the pocket hits seem harder with a lot better pin carry.

It takes practice to get use to this kind of swing especially if you have the habit of muscling every shot you make. So let gravity take your ball into your backswing and then into your forward swing. Plus keep your wrist straight or a little cupped with your hand behind the ball until you reach the release area and when your thumb comes out rotate your hand an inch or two and watch those revs take your ball into a great pocket hit and watch the pins fly. Let gravity do all of the work for you and you will have more energy for all three league night games.

If you want extra help on your game go to bowlingball.com site and at the top cover BowlVersity with your mouse and in the second column click on Improve Your Game and it will cover everything you need for your game including how to do the gravity swing. When you get to the point where you can do it you will find yourself getting more strikes and see your ball working better for you. Good luck.

[noeymc]

think swing set buddy muscling the ball makes u pull it thus decreasing accuracy

[Hammer]

think swing set buddy muscling the ball makes u pull it thus decreasing accuracy

I agree. Muscling the ball takes the ball out of it's swing slot. When you let gravity move the ball the ball will stay in it's natural slot for more accuracy on your shot.

[Aslan]

The interesting thing about bowling swings...there is no "right or wrong".

I tried to remove "muscling" out of my swing/approach...ended up dropping 75% of my shots into the right gutter. It wasn't natural...it didn't work...it didn't feel right. It turns out...that in my attempts to "muscle" the ball...I was straightening my shoulders. Without that "muscling"...my shoulders didn't get parallel.

I watch a lot of different pro bowler swings...nearly all of them apply strength to their forward swing. Some are smooth, some, like Walter Ray, are more "jerky"...but it's rare to see a bowler just let the ball swing down due soley to gravity. And if you DID do that...your timing would always vary. "Muscling" allows you to bring the ball to the release point right when you want it there (sometimes too soon). Waiting for gravity...requires the ball to reach the exact same point in your backswing...at exactly the same time...with exactly the same delay. Very hard to time that. And the pin carry will be less because gravity alone will limit you to 14-16mph.

[Hammer]

To Aslan, to get the straight scoop on swings and other things go to bowlingball.com and at the top cover BowlVersity with your mouse and when the box pops up go to the second column and click on improve your game and there you can find just about anything to improve your game and look at the ones about swinging correctly with gravity swings. Your ball goes into the gutter trying gravity swings
because on the way down your timing is off with the swing and your footwork. Plus as the ball is coming down you have to rotate your upper torso which will square up your shoulders at the release. BowlVersity will tell you everyhting about this.

[Terrier]

^^ Adding to that, the variance of a true gravity swing is negligible. The period of a pendulum is determined primarily by the length of the arm and has a incredibly little relation to the starting height of the swing. The starting height changes the speed of the swing but not the timing. I get that the arm and bowling ball is not a pendulum in the strictest sense of the word. However, the change in time between low and high swings is milliseconds for a true pendulum. That's one reason why it's often used as a model for the bowling swing.

After throwing a few in the gutter, I wouldn't necessarily assume the cause was a free swing as much as it was trying something different. It takes a lot of work to change a swing. Many hours of repetition go into building muscle memory, so the first 300 throws aren't going to be deadly consistent -- sure. It takes time and some research as hammer suggests. I wouldn't give up on it just yet.

And if you're looking for a pro with a pure gravity forward swing, try Scott Norton. I agree that most don't use an effortless forward swing, though.

[Hammer]

There is a point in the gravity swing that you can use some arm muscle but use it at the right time. Don't start using it from the very top of the backswing. Let the ball drop forward about a foot or two and then it is a gradual push on the ball with your hand. It is not though tightening every muscle in your arm and pulling down hard from the top of the backswing and grabbing the ball with a death grip with your hand. This will only show you why you can't string strikes or pick up your spares. You will have a league night of frustration and low scores. Your gutter balls with the gravity swing seems to be a problem with your alignment and approach.

[Aslan]

This will only show you why you can't string strikes or pick up your spares. You will have a league night of frustration and low scores.

Actually I learned I needed to add the forward "push" back in because I was throwing in the 100-120 range and would get "mad"...and found that once I got "mad" I started throwing 160 games.

The "downside" of harder throwing is that it can be "too much". Sometimes if I'm muscling "too much"...I find that I throw 130-160 for two games...then I get tired...and the 3rd game I throw a 175,190, or 220. So I just need to find that "sweet spot" so I don't need to be "tired" to throw a good game.

[Mike White]

Actually I learned I needed to add the forward "push" back in because I was throwing in the 100-120 range and would get "mad"...and found that once I got "mad" I started throwing 160 games.

The "downside" of harder throwing is that it can be "too much". Sometimes if I'm muscling "too much"...I find that I throw 130-160 for two games...then I get tired...and the 3rd game I throw a 175,190, or 220. So I just need to find that "sweet spot" so I don't need to be "tired" to throw a good game.

Sorry but this line of thinking is complete crap.

Even without seeing you bowl, it's clear if you are shooting games in the 100-120 range, you lack body control.

Muscles are far less consistent than gravity.

Throwing a ball into the gutter while using no muscle indicates you pushed the ball in the wrong direction from the very start, or your walking direction was far from straight.

[bowl1820]

Sorry but this line of thinking is complete crap.

Even without seeing you bowl, it's clear if you are shooting games in the 100-120 range, you lack body control.

Muscles are far less consistent than gravity.

Throwing a ball into the gutter while using no muscle indicates you pushed the ball in the wrong direction from the very start, or your walking direction was far from straight.

I'm with Mike here.

This whole thing is basically talking about a "free" armswing which would allow gravity to assist your swing which would give you a more consistent armswing.

A good free arm swing will follow the path you start it on (the swing plane) without you having to physically help control the direction. The standard example is a tire swing

"When an object is suspended from a fixed point and allowed to swing freely, this object will not change direction and continually occupy this same space or “plane."

That's shows why your ball went into the gutter, like mike said.


"Muscling" allows you to bring the ball to the release point right when you want it there (sometimes too soon).

If you have to "muscle" the ball to get it to the release "On time" that shows your timing is off in the first place and if it is "sometimes too soon" that shows you that muscling is inconsistent right there.


Waiting for gravity...requires the ball to reach the exact same point in your backswing...at exactly the same time...with exactly the same delay. Very hard to time that. And the pin carry will be less because gravity alone will limit you to 14-16mph.

If you start the ball the same way each time it would reach the exact same point in your backswing...at exactly the same time...with exactly the same delay. If it doesn't your not starting it the same way every time. If your muscling the backswing it throw it off also.

Here's a quote from Bryan O’Keefe

"One misconception is that you can adjust your ball speed by using your upper body. It’s a mistake to think that you can keep your lower body the same and simply use more muscle to throw the ball harder, or slow the ball down by grabbing it more and forcing yourself to throw the ball slower. In truth, you may In truth, you may actually accomplish faster or slower ball speed, but your accuracy and consistency is going to be very difficult to repeat.

“The best way to increase or decrease ball speed is by using your legs, not your upper body.“ "

[bowl1820]

Here's the article:


CONTROL YOUR ROLL INCREASING/DECREASING BALL SPEED
By Bryan O’Keefe

Bowling is about the ability to repeat shots and the readi- ness to adjust to changing conditions.
Today, we have bowling balls that absorb oil and we compete on an invisible playing field that changes with virtually every shot that goes down the lane. Bowlers need to con- stantly adjust to those changes.
Too often bowlers immediately feel the need to adjust by moving on the approach, left-to-right across the lane. Remember, the lane is 60 feet long but only 39 inches wide. There’s much more room to make front-to-back than left-to-right adjust- ments. Sometimes the best adjust- ment is stay on the same line and
simply increase or decrease the ball speed to better read the changes in the lane. If you need the ball to slow down faster, throw it slower. If you need the ball to not slow down quite as quickly, throw it faster.
Of course, increasing and decreasing ball speed is not a new concept in bowling, but the manner in which people attempt to adjust their ball speed is the subject of con- siderable debate.
One misconception is that you can adjust your ball speed by using your upper body. It’s a mistake to think that you can keep your lower body the same and simply use more muscle to throw the ball harder, or slow the ball down by grabbing it more and forcing yourself to throw the ball slower. In truth, you may

“The best way to increase or decrease ball speed is by using your legs, not your upper body.“

In truth, you may actually accomplish faster or slower ball speed, but your accuracy and consistency is going to be very difficult to repeat.
The best way to increase or de- crease ball speed is by using your legs, not your upper body. Using your lower body to adjust your tem- po to the line will allow you to main- tain a fluid, natural swing and will greatly increase your ability to repeat shots.
To increase ball speed, start your approach a step behind your normal starting point, which will give you more room so that you can walk faster. By moving faster to the line, your stride will be slightly longer. That extra pace to the line will get your lower body working while your upper body stays relaxed and ball speed will still increase.
Conversely, if you want to decrease your ball speed, move up a foot in your approach. Whether you’re using a four-step or five-step approach, your steps will be shorter and your pace will be slower.
Naturally, a byproduct of quicker/ slower tempo to the line is that your timing must adjust with the tempo, and that’s where the biggest misconception about adjusting ball speed comes in.
Prevailing wisdom suggests that in order to throw the ball harder you start the ball higher (lengthening your swing), and to slow it down you start the ball lower in your stance (shortening your swing).
By adjusting your tempo to the line, the opposite is actually true. Start with the ball about six inches lower if you want to increase ball speed, and start with the ball slightly higher if you want to decrease
ball speed. Confused?

Here’s how it works: By speeding up your tempo to the line, you’ve actually got less time to get the ball from your stance, through your swing and to the release point. Let’s say your normal swing takes four sec- onds from stance to release point. There’s a natural tempo, so your feet are instinctively going to keep track of that to keep you in your timing. Now, if you cut your swing to 3.5 seconds, your feet are going to move faster to stay in synch.
It’s all about the distance your swing travels. If you take a shorter swing, your feet automatically have to go faster in order to stay in time.
In essence, your feet have to move faster to make up for the lost distance in your swing. If your swing is longer, your feet have to move slower to maintain proper timing.
So, to increase ball speed, move back one foot on the approach and adjust the ball position six inches lower in your stance. To decrease ball speed, start one foot forward on the approach and position the ball six inches higher in your stance.
To a certain extent, the distance of your swing dictates your foot speed. Adjusting the length of the swing shorter or longer than normal will allow you to increase or decrease ball speed.
That can come in handy because often times you’re on the right part of the lane. Instead of moving left or right, adjust your ball speed to adapt to the changing lane conditions.
— Bryan O’Keefe is Assistant Coach and Facility Manager at the International Training and Research Center in Arlington, Texas.

[bowl1820]

And this was my thought to go with that:
"There's a old book "Bowling: Knowledge is Key" by Fred Borden in it there's a part where he talks about "vertical placement" (Holding the ball higher or lower).

In it he talks about not holding it higher or lower to increase or decrease speed. But use it as a way of controlling arm swing timing to match the tempo of your feet movements. Raising the ball retards the arm swing in relation to the feet movement, lowering the ball advances the arm swing timing in relation to the feet movements

So Bowlers with a naturally fast tempo, hold the ball lower to match up with their footwork. Those with a slower tempo, hold the ball higher because it retards the swing.

Now if holding the ball higher retards the swing, that would mean it would be basically a longer, slower swing. And so the higher you hold it, the longer and slower the swing be.

Now if your trying to increase speed , using a longer and slower swing wouldn't help. You would wind up having to accelerate your arm through that longer, slower swing. Not only To make up for the speed you lost with the longer swing, but to get that extra speed you wanted in the first place. That would mean adding muscle to the swing, but muscling isn't something we want to do.

Now if you increase or decrease speed using foot work (as Bryan O'Keefe's article suggests). then using a lower ball height for faster and higher one for slower makes sense, because it's just matching up the swing timing with the foot work. Plus you can still have a free swing, with no muscles involved to increase the speed.

It just seemed to me that you could infer from Fred's idea above, that if you wanted to increase ball speed by faster footwork. You would have to hold the ball lower. And that is the basic idea put forth by Bryan O'Keefe's article. Increase ball speed by holding ball lower with faster footwork. Hold higher with slower footwork for slower ball speed. So to me it would seem to support Bryan's idea.

It's kind of a old idea, now new again. "

[J Anderson]

The interesting thing about bowling swings...there is no "right or wrong".

I tried to remove "muscling" out of my swing/approach...ended up dropping 75% of my shots into the right gutter. It wasn't natural...it didn't work...it didn't feel right. It turns out...that in my attempts to "muscle" the ball...I was straightening my shoulders. Without that "muscling"...my shoulders didn't get parallel.

I watch a lot of different pro bowler swings...nearly all of them apply strength to their forward swing. Some are smooth, some, like Walter Ray, are more "jerky"...but it's rare to see a bowler just let the ball swing down due soley to gravity. And if you DID do that...your timing would always vary. "Muscling" allows you to bring the ball to the release point right when you want it there (sometimes too soon). Waiting for gravity...requires the ball to reach the exact same point in your backswing...at exactly the same time...with exactly the same delay. Very hard to time that. And the pin carry will be less because gravity alone will limit you to 14-16mph.

Just a quick question Aslan, How many steps do you take?

[dnhoffman]

Saying you should muscle through a bowling swing is beyond ridiculous.

It's the equivalent of saying a golfer should swing back and forward as hard as possible or a baseball player should muscle an at bat really hard.

Muscling may "bring you to 160" but I guarantee it'll always limit you below a 180 average.

[noeymc]

The interesting thing about bowling swings...there is no "right or wrong".

I tried to remove "muscling" out of my swing/approach...ended up dropping 75% of my shots into the right gutter. It wasn't natural...it didn't work...it didn't feel right. It turns out...that in my attempts to "muscle" the ball...I was straightening my shoulders. Without that "muscling"...my shoulders didn't get parallel.

I watch a lot of different pro bowler swings...nearly all of them apply strength to their forward swing. Some are smooth, some, like Walter Ray, are more "jerky"...but it's rare to see a bowler just let the ball swing down due soley to gravity. And if you DID do that...your timing would always vary. "Muscling" allows you to bring the ball to the release point right when you want it there (sometimes too soon). Waiting for gravity...requires the ball to reach the exact same point in your backswing...at exactly the same time...with exactly the same delay. Very hard to time that. And the pin carry will be less because gravity alone will limit you to 14-16mph.

what you just posted was one of the dumbest things i have read on here and i never attack anyone here but this statement is bad you should be waiting on the ball. 2nd no muscling the ball will mess your timing up... as where gravity never changes so that takes it out of the picture 3rd my ball speed is 16-18 mph i adjust as needed but normaly run around 18 with gravity i am not sure where u get your logic or your research but please post something to back up your statements id love to see who told u this brosince

[Hammer]

Pro bowlers are not muscling the ball even though it looks that way. When their ball gets to the top of their backswing they time their approach so as the ball starts to come down with gravity they are in their power step which is the step right before their slide step and they push off into their slide which is usually a long slide which gives them the speed they want for the conditions of the alleys they are playing on. Their swings look like they are muscled because they have such a relaxed arm that it is free to swing as fast as they want.
Ball speed is controlled with the legs believe it or not and not the arm.

Their backswings can get high because when they swing back their shoulders open up so they are parallel with the alley gutters and that combined with the right upper body tilt will let the shoulder get the ball that high. If they tried doing that old school by keeping the shoulders square to the foul line the bowling shoulder wouldn't have enough flexibility to get the ball high.

[Hammer]

I forgot Aslan to once again say click on bowlingball.com and at the top right of the page cover BowlVersity with your mouse and in the second column of the drop down box click on Improve Your Game and you will find everything you need to know about getting your game together the right way. If you dispute what they tell you there is the right way then you will reach a certain level of bowling and never get better with time.

[classygranny]

Pro bowlers are not muscling the ball even though it looks that way. When their ball gets to the top of their backswing they time their approach so as the ball starts to come down with gravity they are in their power step which is the step right before their slide step and they push off into their slide which is usually a long slide which gives them the speed they want for the conditions of the alleys they are playing on. Their swings look like they are muscled because they have such a relaxed arm that it is free to swing as fast as they want.
Ball speed is controlled with the legs believe it or not and not the arm.

Their backswings can get high because when they swing back their shoulders open up so they are parallel with the alley gutters and that combined with the right upper body tilt will let the shoulder get the ball that high. If they tried doing that old school by keeping the shoulders square to the foul line the bowling shoulder wouldn't have enough flexibility to get the ball high.

This is described very well in Mark Baker's book "The Game Changer"

[bowl1820]

Ron Clifton wrote
The most common mistakes bowlers make
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip34.htm
3. They try to “throw” the ball like in other sports: In other sports like baseball or football we use our muscles to “throw” the ball by accelerating it quickly. Bowling balls are much too heavy for that. When you try to quickly accelerate a 15 pound object it resists greatly, that is basic physics. This resistance makes it very hard to “throw” the ball with any consistency. Learn to allow gravity to throw the ball for you.

[Aslan]

what you just posted was one of the dumbest things i have read on here nice


Just a quick question Aslan, How many steps do you take?
4

[Mudpuppy]

Interesting thread. I am pretty sure I use a combination of gravity and muscling the ball if I understand correctly. I find golf and bowling similar although I don't golf that much but in terms of back swing I kind of like gravity do it's thing - I find a hard jerky backswing ruins the shot. Instead I go for a gravity fed smooth backswing and then start the shot with gravity and at a certain point 1/4-1/2 way through the swing I add a little muscle. I find in bowling I can pretty consistently control the speed of the ball this way. But also I try not to think about too much when I bowl - when I do it starts having the reverse effect. If I am focused on steps and backswing I lose focus of the placement of the shot or the speed or something else critical. I try to be 100% consistent in all things making them second nature or habit (like steps, backswing, etc.) and I focus on where I aim the ball and follow through of the shot. Those 2 things seem the most important to me and seem to make the most difference. But there is always room for improvement and you never stop learning. It's similar to me when I do a trackday on the bike. I go through the bike bolt by bolt, tire pressure has to be exact, chain tension perfect, etc. Then I don't even consider these things at 160mph when I am about to go into a hairpin turn really hot. I am not thinking I wonder if the tires will stick, etc. I am focused on the best line, braking pre-corner and throttle control through the corner. I guess what I am saying is I try to eliminate the things that I don't need to think about to focus on what I feel is important.

[Aslan]

I am pretty sure I use a combination of gravity and muscling the ball if I understand correctly.

I think most people do. All you have to do is watch a youtube video of any pro bowler and you'll see as they approach the foul line...the ball speeds up so they can release it near their front leg and not go over the foul line.

The two things I look for that tell me it's NOT a true pendulum, pure gravity swing is:
1) Does the backswing go higher than the initial ball position? If it does, which it will for most pro bowlers...it can't be simply gravity/pendulum...because the increase in speed due to gravity's effect on the ball will be almost equally cancelled out as the effect of that same gravity works against it on the backswing. Push a person on a swing set...give them one push...and see if they go higher coming back (without trying) than going forward. It's physically impossible. Therefore, a backswing higher than the initial ball point means the bowlers is ADDING energy to his/her backswing.
2) Watch pros as they start into their final step...the ball is still quite a ways back..just starting it's downswing...you can see it "speed up" as they get their sliding foot close to the foul line. A true pendulum swing wouldn't need chest rotation. The shoulders could stay perfectly straight....just pendulum the ball at the shoulder...and the only speed increase would be how fast you approach...but you'd have to approach at the same speed...because otherwise the timing would be off.

There was a pro bowler in the 80s...can't remember who...but he started his approach with his ball hanging down at his side in one hand. He then pushed his arm straight forward...it would go back (like a pendulum)...and then forward again using gravity. That was the closest thing I've ever seen to a "true pendulum swing".

I think most bowlers use "muscles" in their forward and back swings. It's just not noticeable because MOST of the swing is due to the ball weight and gravity. You couldn't throw a bowling ball without the pendulum effect...it's too heavy. You'd have a blown rotator cuff in a matter of months. And...your shoulders could never stay paralell to the foul line...it'd be impossible to stop your ball side shoulder from going forward just due to the momentum. But to say it's not at all part of the proper swing...then your approach timing would have to be "perfect" to get that ball at that release point the same each time. I think swings are very individualized...no 2 are exactly the same. And like you said...trying to totally tear that apart...you end up getting totally out of whack.

I tried switching to a 3-step approach...a really short approach...I tried releasing way earlier...I tried a really super-short backswing....it's tough. I guess over time you could get used to it...but wow...it felt SO weird to start my approach that close to the foul line.

[bowl1820]

http://youtu.be/kIDYcu3AWEQ

[J Anderson]

J Anderson
Just a quick question Aslan, How many steps do you take?

4

Darn, I thought you might say three. Many bowlers who only take three steps stop their backswing before it reaches its peak because they, at some level of consciousness know there is not enough time in a three step approach for a full swing to be completed. This would have explained perfectly why not muscling the ball doesn't work for you

[Aslan]

Darn, I thought you might say three. Many bowlers who only take three steps stop their backswing before it reaches its peak because they, at some level of consciousness know there is not enough time in a three step approach for a full swing to be completed. This would have explained perfectly why not muscling the ball doesn't work for you

Nope. I've never figured out 3 or 5. It just feels really strange to make that first step with my left foot while moving my right arm....like rubbing your stomach and your head...just feels "off".

[bowl1820]

Heres a link:
Coaches' Corner SUSIE MINSHEW on the swing
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/articles/coachescorner/susie-minshew/swingin.shtml


Excerpt:
PENDULUM COMMENTS

The acceleration of the downswing is what helps the ball move up into your hand as you prepare to release the ball. After all, in a four-step approach, it takes three steps to get to the top of the backswing and only one to move the ball into position to release it. Therefore, the downswing must be faster, right? There are many bowlers who think this means they should grab the ball at the top of the backswing and heave ho! NOT!! Gravity supplies substantial downswing momentum and it's quite destructive to try to force more swing speed.

If rotation and extension were not important at the release point, everyone would have an armswing like a whip. That is not, however, a dominant style in bowling because it doesn't work. Power from swing speed works well in golf but not in bowling. The bowling delivery must provide the opportunity for leverage to be produced at the release. That can't happen with a warp speed armswing produced by muscle involvement. A bowling ball is quite heavy. If you drag it back and drag it forward fighting gravity and kinetic energy, manufacturing swing direction and speed with muscle, your delivery will be ineffective, inconsistent, and tiring - a 206 one game and a 141 the next.



Read this also:
Click this for How High Can A Free Swing Go? by Ron Clifton (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip41_files/tip41.htm)


Here's a quote I like also.
"Back swing height is irrelevant as long as there is no muscle required to get it up there, or keep it from going up there. If you just let your arm swing, you'll find your arm swing is as high as it needs to be and no more."




Bill Hall
Swing height is really based on the player’s
ability to repeat that height. The main thing is
that the height of the swing reaches its peak at
the proper time and that the bowler achieves
that swing length/height with a flowing motion
instead of manipulating the swing to
reach an artificial peak.
The proper time for the peak of the swing is
when the weight of the body is completely on
the leg during the next-to-last step (whether
four or five steps) and the toe of the third step
(five-step delivery) is the only part of the foot
touching the approach.
Most quality players are able to reach a peak
or height of a swing with little to no effort. The
swings that are manipulated to reach a length/
height are the swings that, in my opinion, are
much harder for a player to count on day to
day, with most manipulated swings involving
pulling the ball back and up to create the
height. This type of manipulation usually
creates an inconsistent release at the bottom
of the swing causing the bowler to either drop
the ball or release the ball too far out in front
of them.

[Eternal Bowler]

Nope. I've never figured out 3 or 5. It just feels really strange to make that first step with my left foot while moving my right arm....like rubbing your stomach and your head...just feels "off". Solution: Try a 4-step approach.

Also, with a 5-step approach, you don't move the ball on your first step; you wait until your second step. I learned that after making the same mistake.

[Aslan]

causing the bowler to either drop
the ball or release the ball too far out in front
of them.[/B]

HEY!! I resemble that remark!

Is Bill Hall watching me bowl?? Erie....

So, bowl1820...if you push a ball forward lets say chest level on step 1....and gravity and the weight of the ball cause it to arc in a pendulum motion....it PHYSICALLY CANNOT go higher than chest level on the backswing. Am I correct in that statement from your point of view? Simple momentum/Force physics....the weight of the ball and gravity act to push it toward the floor...the kinimatics causes it to have momentum as it goes into backswing phase...and then gravity and the weight of the ball works against that momentum...then the ball comes back down.

Simple test....I'm at work so I can't try it right now....but somebody take their bowling ball....stand on approach....do the usual push out and let the ball fall....use NO MUSCLES to push it back...just let it swing...I can GUARANTEE it won't go back farther than where it started. Physically impossible.

BUT!! BUT!!...Tonight is my practice night and I'm gonna take some of these comments to heart...see if I can maybe reduce some of that "muscling" of the forward swing. I may need to generate a slightler higher backswing...and i'll have to slow my approach or the ball will definitely be late...but I'll keep this stuff in mind and see what happens.

[Zaxmazr]

http://youtu.be/kIDYcu3AWEQ

It's good to know I've had the correct approach all along :D

[noeymc]

you should lean foward thats how u get a high back swing please go see a coach

[Aslan]

you should lean foward thats how u get a high back swing please go see a coach

Definition of Irony: Already saw a coach and the 1st thing they told me?? Don't lean over. ;) ;)

[bowl1820]

HEY!! I resemble that remark!

Is Bill Hall watching me bowl?? Erie....

So, bowl1820...if you push a ball forward lets say chest level on step 1....and gravity and the weight of the ball cause it to arc in a pendulum motion....it PHYSICALLY CANNOT go higher than chest level on the backswing. Am I correct in that statement from your point of view? Simple momentum/Force physics....the weight of the ball and gravity act to push it toward the floor...the kinimatics causes it to have momentum as it goes into backswing phase...and then gravity and the weight of the ball works against that momentum...then the ball comes back down.

Simple test....I'm at work so I can't try it right now....but somebody take their bowling ball....stand on approach....do the usual push out and let the ball fall....use NO MUSCLES to push it back...just let it swing...I can GUARANTEE it won't go back farther than where it started. Physically impossible.

BUT!! BUT!!...Tonight is my practice night and I'm gonna take some of these comments to heart...see if I can maybe reduce some of that "muscling" of the forward swing. I may need to generate a slightler higher backswing...and i'll have to slow my approach or the ball will definitely be late...but I'll keep this stuff in mind and see what happens.

What I and I think everyone else is trying to say is

1: You don't use muscle to lift the ball high up in the backswing.

2: You don't use muscle to throw the ball faster/harder down the lane during the forward swing.

Like Bill Hall said when your manipulating the swing that way, you create an inconsistent release.

You talk about the gravity/Free/pendulum swing by itself not making a lot speed.

Like your just standing at the foul line, swinging the ball back then forward and releasing it. And saying if I want more speed I have to throw it harder. But that's not the case.

Your not taking into account your timing, footwork, starting position, release etc. all of these are factors that affect the speed and leverage you can impart on the ball.

Is learning how to do it hard? it can be, but that's why you practice.

[J Anderson]

Definition of Irony: Already saw a coach and the 1st thing they told me?? Don't lean over. ;) ;)

Big difference between lean forward and lean over.

[Aslan]

I get what you're saying bowl1820...and I've already watched all the videos referenced plus some. And I understand where they are coming from and even agree with it.

I was just pointing out that when people start saying there shouldn't be ANY muscling of a swing (bakwards or forwards), they would actually be surprised that nearly every bowler does this to varying degrees...including the pros that make those videos.

The "point" of the pendulum discussion (from what I read and viewed) is less about how you throw the ball, speed, etc. It's more about keeping the ball going back to front (rather than a sideways motion). You push it forward...it goes straight back....kick the leg to the side....ball goes straight forward where the leg used to be. Simple pendulum. That same "pendulum" discussion wasn't really about "muscling" because how much muscling we use is more dependent on our bodies, age, how tired we are, swings, lanes....or even if we need a minute adjustment for timing purposes. As I tried to point out...EVERYONE muscles the ball either backwards, forwards, or both. Someone like Sean Rash or Rhino Page...without ANY muscling of the ball...with a simple, simple pendulum swing...would have to start with the bowling ball above their head to get a backswing that high purely using gravity and the weight of the ball.

Somehow we got off topic and started talking about "muscling"...but really "muscling" is more of a problem if you overdo it. I have had to cut down a bit on the force I apply in my back swing. It's very, very minimal now. Because when I was "trying" to push the ball back...it made my whole swing/approach inconsistent and errratic. I started pushing the ball out rather than dropping it...which gave it more momentum to go back...less need to muscle...things got better. Maybe as I learn to cut a little "muscle action" off the forward swing...I'll see similar improvements...worth a try!!

[noeymc]

Big difference between lean forward and lean over.

thank you anderson...

[Terrier]

So, bowl1820...if you push a ball forward lets say chest level on step 1....and gravity and the weight of the ball cause it to arc in a pendulum motion....it PHYSICALLY CANNOT go higher than chest level on the backswing. Am I correct in that statement from your point of view? Simple momentum/Force physics....the weight of the ball and gravity act to push it toward the floor...the kinimatics causes it to have momentum as it goes into backswing phase...and then gravity and the weight of the ball works against that momentum...then the ball comes back down.

Simple test....I'm at work so I can't try it right now....but somebody take their bowling ball....stand on approach....do the usual push out and let the ball fall....use NO MUSCLES to push it back...just let it swing...I can GUARANTEE it won't go back farther than where it started. Physically impossible. In a stationary pendulum, you are correct. The height of the pendulum is determined by the height at the initial point.

You are overlooking that there is translational motion occurring at the feet, which delivers additional momentum to the ball during the backswing. This is responsible for the increased height at the top of the backswing. It's not physically impossible.

If you're not convinced, hold the ball loosely at your side while at a standstill. Take a brisk step or two, and the ball will start to swing. Translational kinetic energy becomes potential energy, which is ball height.

[Hammer]

Good luck trying to get better doing it your way instead of the right way. A bowling coach must tear his hair out after a session with you.
You would dispute everything he told you which would be the right way. I guess we should tell bowlingball.com to can BowlVersity
because evidently they have no idea what they are talking about. You should take over BowlVersity and show techniques to folks who want to keep their scores inconsistent. LOL. :cool:

[Aslan]

In a stationary pendulum, you are correct. The height of the pendulum is determined by the height at the initial point.

You are overlooking that there is translational motion occurring at the feet, which delivers additional momentum to the ball during the backswing. This is responsible for the increased height at the top of the backswing. It's not physically impossible.

If you're not convinced, hold the ball loosely at your side while at a standstill. Take a brisk step or two, and the ball will start to swing. Translational kinetic energy becomes potential energy, which is ball height.

Now somebody is speaking my language!! I'm still a little confused at how taking 3 steps in one direction can translate into momentum in the opposite direction (over all 3 steps)....but at least someone is speaking on the same level and understanding my frustration with the initial concept.

Apparenlty I'm going to have "nerd out" and study up on transitional kinetic energy! ;)

[dnhoffman]

Bottom line for me, I have a low backswing, my ball speed is 16 at the pin deck, and i don't have a ton of revs. I never muscle a shot because when I do things go. awry


And I average 200 in two THS leagues at different houses. It's no Walter Ray, but it's definitely a level you'll never reach with this "force it" logic.

[bowl1820]

Somehow we got off topic and started talking about "muscling"...but really "muscling" is more of a problem if you overdo it.
Yes there's a difference between Muscling and controlling.


I have had to cut down a bit on the force I apply in my back swing. It's very, very minimal now. Because when I was "trying" to push the ball back...it made my whole swing/approach inconsistent and erratic.
Yes that's muscling the back swing.


I started pushing the ball out rather than dropping it...which gave it more momentum to go back...less need to muscle...things got better. Maybe as I learn to cut a little "muscle action" off the forward swing...I'll see similar improvements...worth a try!!
Okay progress here.

[Terrier]

Now somebody is speaking my language!! I'm still a little confused at how taking 3 steps in one direction can translate into momentum in the opposite direction (over all 3 steps)....but at least someone is speaking on the same level and understanding my frustration with the initial concept.

Apparenlty I'm going to have "nerd out" and study up on transitional kinetic energy! The swinging of the ball is not like a ball on a massless string. Let's come up with a model of our free armswing: Think of it more like a ball on the end of a rod, so the model is a rigid body. Two scenarios: stationary and walking.

- If you are simply swinging the ball while stationary, the only thing occurring is potential energy (height of starting position) becomes kinetic energy (speed at the bottom of the swing), which becomes potential energy at the top of the backswing. Assuming no losses and no muscle effort, there is no change in height. Just like an ideal pendulum.

- In the second scenario, walking introduces torque to the arm through the shoulder. This torque adds rotational acceleration of the arm about the center of mass (of the arm and ball). This rotational acceleration is in addition to the gravitational acceleration of the first scenario. So you get more speed, which becomes more potential energy at the top of the backswing. The key in this is that a torque is applied after the ball starts swinging and that this is a rigid body.

[Aslan]

The swinging of the ball is not like a ball on a massless string. Let's come up with a model of our free armswing: Think of it more like a ball on the end of a rod, so the model is a rigid body. Two scenarios: stationary and walking.

- If you are simply swinging the ball while stationary, the only thing occurring is potential energy (height of starting position) becomes kinetic energy (speed at the bottom of the swing), which becomes potential energy at the top of the backswing. Assuming no losses and no muscle effort, there is no change in height. Just like an ideal pendulum.

- In the second scenario, walking introduces torque to the arm through the shoulder. This torque adds rotational acceleration of the arm about the center of mass (of the arm and ball). This rotational acceleration is in addition to the gravitational acceleration of the first scenario. So you get more speed, which becomes more potential energy at the top of the backswing. The key in this is that a torque is applied after the ball starts swinging and that this is a rigid body.

See...THAT actually makes SENSE!! Well played Terrier...well played indeed!

[Aslan]

Good luck trying to get better doing it your way instead of the right way. A bowling coach must tear his hair out after a session with you.
You would dispute everything he told you which would be the right way. I guess we should tell bowlingball.com to can BowlVersity
because evidently they have no idea what they are talking about. You should take over BowlVersity and show techniques to folks who want to keep their scores inconsistent. LOL. :cool:

You're right Hammer. Sean Rash just called my cell phone...he told me he owes his entire professional career to Bowlversity...he'd have never made it to the PBA without it. Luckily Bowlversity created a time machine so it could go back and create the game. And good thing Al Gore invented the internet...or we'd have to drive to bowlversity to learn how to bowl.

Wow...the "right way" huh? Hey Hammer...help me out here...the "right way"...would the be left handed or right handed? Stroker, Tweener, or Cranker? what weight is the right weight for a ball? 3 step, 4 step, or 5 step? What is the correct target? Arrows? Dots? 3-point targeting? one-handed or two-handed?? Don't answer that last one!

Well...I sure hope you can help me out with the one "right way"...that'll really help me get a head start. Then I can go to bowlversity...and with a little practice...300 games every time!!! WooHooo!!!! Thanks Hammer. Brilliant.

[Aslan]

Follow-up question Hammer...if theres only one "right way" (the opposite of my way I'm betting)...why do the pros all have such different approaches and styles. We need to get to the bottom of this so we can tell all the pros who are doing it wrong to stop being so pig headed and go to Bowlversity. :cool:

[Hammer]

To Aslan, no matter if you have a three step, four or five step approach it all boils down to doing your approach and swing a certain way to be consistent and to get better at bowling. You are determined to do it your way. So as long as you are happy doing what you are doing there is no sense in trying to tell you anything else. :cool:

[dnhoffman]

Aslan why are you so into conflict and being a sarcastic jerk in every thread you participate in?

[Zaxmazr]

Aslan why are you so into conflict and being a sarcastic jerk in every thread you participate in?

http://marcamos.com/ha/this-is-gonna-be-good.gif

[noeymc]

http://marcamos.com/ha/this-is-gonna-be-good.gif

no it wont please address stuff like that in PM only it does not need to be out in the open to distract from why we are here and thats bowling

[MICHAEL]

Try the palm up delivery, giving the ball a end over end straight roll, it WORKS GREAT for me! Does away with the annoying kick to the left of 10 pin 100 percent of the time if done correctly! I can even use a Nano to pick it up with this method! Comfortable feel, and good on many other spare pick up where that HOOK at the end can destroy a great placement

[Aslan]

no it wont please address stuff like that in PM only it does not need to be out in the open to distract from why we are here and thats bowling

Zax...funny!! Well played.

noeymc...Agreed. If Hoffman wants to throw stones and start fights...I'd prefer he PM me (as you did) so we can have it out rather than follow me from thread to thread to thread making rude little comments. But...what I "prefer"...I do not always "get"...so I'll just ignore the troll rather than feeding it.

[Hammer]

Who would think that just discussing the technique of the gravity swing would come to this. YIKES! Let's get back on track folks and play nice again. I guess if we can't make a good comment about something or someone we should just say nothing and move on to another
posted topic. For myself I apologize for any comment taken the wrong way. I did not come to this FORUM to become an enemy to anyone. I will have to give a little more thought to what I am about to reply. :confused: :cool: