Speed and Angle into the POCKET

[MICHAEL]

I read about ball reviews that say,,, "it keeps the pins low" ect ect. Has a machine ever been used to test the theory that a certain SPEED actually is best for keeping them low, and thus less 7 and 10 pins. I have seen bowlers that throw very relatively high speeds, resulting in 10/7 leaves!

Can speed be an enemy to a good, or 300 game? It makes sense to me that a lower speed, might actually keep the pins lower!

I know this must have been tested, anyone know the optimal speed?

[e-tank]

dont most pros throw around 18-22 mph?

from watching them it looks like they just make a ball change to get carry on those pins

[Eternal Bowler]

I'm pretty sure it's not that there's a special SPEED by itself that crushes the pins. I think what would be more important is the the speed-to-revs ratio, which is even enough for the ball to get into a roll shortly before hitting the pocket. There are many variables though that contribute though, not just that.

[JaMau24]

dont most pros throw around 18-22 mph?

from watching them it looks like they just make a ball change to get carry on those pins

Eh, not really. Just like anywhere, there are guys who throw hard and guys who throw soft.

[dnhoffman]

All above matching speed and revs I think

[bowl1820]

I read about ball reviews that say,,, "it keeps the pins low" ect ect. Has a machine ever been used to test the theory that a certain SPEED actually is best for keeping them low, and thus less 7 and 10 pins. I have seen bowlers that throw very relatively high speeds, resulting in 10/7 leaves!

Can speed be an enemy to a good, or 300 game? It makes sense to me that a lower speed, might actually keep the pins lower!

I know this must have been tested, anyone know the optimal speed?

"Keeps the pins low" I've seen this many times and wondered just how the ball "Keeps the pins low". So did some looking and asked that question.

I got the answer and it is.......... GRAVITY! The ball doesn't keep the pins low, it's gravity.

It's just a marketing term like "Continuous through the pins" If that was the case that would mean zero deflection! That would mean every pocket hit would result in a solid 9-pin!

The main thing is matching up bowler and ball to the conditions.

Yes speed can be a enemy to a good game, A 17 mph ball speed at impact is considered about the optimum speed.

[Mike White]

"Keeps the pins low" I've seen this many times and wondered just how the ball "Keeps the pins low". So did some looking and asked that question.

I got the answer and it is.......... GRAVITY! The ball doesn't keep the pins low, it's gravity.

It's just a marketing term like "Continuous through the pins" If that was the case that would mean zero deflection! That would mean every pocket hit would result in a solid 9-pin!

The main thing is matching up bowler and ball to the conditions.

Yes speed can be a enemy to a good game, A 17 mph ball speed at impact is considered about the optimum speed.

The answer of GRAVITY is complete crap. If gravity kept the pins low, then how does a rocket make it to the moon? Does gravity go on break?

At the point of impact between a ball and a pin, some of the ball's energy is transfered to the pin.

As long as the energy isn't sufficient to cause a vertical velocity allowing the pin to reach a height over 15 inches.

The ball impacts the pin at approximately 4 1/4" above the bottom of the pin, while the pin's center of gravity is 5 15/16" from the bottom.

[MICHAEL]

The answer of GRAVITY is complete crap. If gravity kept the pins low, then how does a rocket make it to the moon? Does gravity go on break?

At the point of impact between a ball and a pin, some of the ball's energy is transfered to the pin.

As long as the energy isn't sufficient to cause a vertical velocity allowing the pin to reach a height over 15 inches.

The ball impacts the pin at approximately 4 1/4" above the bottom of the pin, while the pin's center of gravity is 5 15/16" from the bottom.

A rockets thrust is what makes it rise, with the force of that, it will be able to defy gravity, once it leaves the atmosphere, there is no gravity for it to defy.
believe it or not mike gravity is what keeps all of us here on the ground! There is NO WEIGHT without it! Thus weightlessness in space....
On the moon as I remember its 1/4 the size of earth, thus, a person weighting 200 lbs, would weigh only 50lbs on the moon! (:) Pins are kept low, in fact stay put due to one thing, gradational pull! I know some have said that the Earth sucks, that's what keeps ever thing in place..... but then some believe in the tooth fairy!! LOL So to say gravity has nothing to do with keeping pins low is totally inaccurate.

[bowl1820]

The answer of GRAVITY is complete crap. If gravity kept the pins low, then how does a rocket make it to the moon? Does gravity go on break?

Well the rocket engine has to fight against GRAVITY which is keeping it against the ground (Keeping it low in other words) to get away from the earth, Then it falls towards the moon because of the Moons Gravity, ( in other words gravity is pulling it down, getting it closer/lower to the ground . The engine is not pushing it to the moon.


At the point of impact between a ball and a pin, some of the ball's energy is transfered to the pin.

Sure enough


As long as the energy isn't sufficient to cause a vertical velocity allowing the pin to reach a height over 15 inches.

So what your saying here is the ball didn't impart sufficient energy for the pin to over come the force of GRAVITY (in other words the ball didn't hit the pins too hard). So GRAVITY was what kept the pins low to the lane! Not the ball.


The ball impacts the pin at approximately 4 1/4" above the bottom of the pin, while the pin's center of gravity is 5 15/16" from the bottom.

So what? all of you just said is what would make a ball goes up, not how a ball keeps the pins low.


I asked this same question over on Bowlingchat:
"How does the ball keep the pins low?
What is suppose to be keeping the pins low? is it some property of the ball? or the angle, speed of the ball as it hits? Or is it just marketing?"

Here's Mo Pinels answer:
The balls doesn't keep the pins low; GRAVITY DOES!!! The rest is BULL PUCKY!!!!!

Here's the thread:
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6804

[sprocket]

Entry angle is everything. You can set a ramp in front of the pins roll a ball down it at the right entry angle and carry the ten pin every time. Some would say, no the ball has to be in a good roll or it will deflect and leave the ten pin. That's true but what happens when the ball hits the headpin and deflects? ENTRY ANGLE CHANGES. The ball needs to enter the pocket at the right angle and have sufficient forward roll and speed to maintain that angle to carry the ten pin every time. Eugene McCune set the 8 game PBA record throwing darts up the first arrow at about 24MPH. Speed didn't prevent him from carrying because he had entry angle and forward roll.

Low speed can have a negative effect but only because the ball doesn't have enough momentum to keep from deflecting off the headpin, so entry angle changes.

[MICHAEL]

Entry angle is VERY important, but there are several different angles that will get the job done! Keeping the pins low was my question, and as mentioned I agree that in part the height of the ball in regards to the pins has lots to do with the defection up, or down! also the speed I would think could amplify the direction they go up, or downward.

Gravity does come to play along with many other factors in how high a pin flies! For ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction! Their is not a ball made, in my opinion that can make the claim that it magically keeps the pins lower,,, many factors are involved.

Now if a ball was made TALLER, Higher from the groundd surface, sure it would tend to hit the pins above their center of gravity, and thus keep the pins low!

But since balls have regulations as to how high they can be manufactured, that will not happen!
The MOST IMPORT thing keeping pins from going into earths orbit when Iceman throws his bowling balls, it GRAVITY!!

[noeymc]

well put bowl

[sprocket]

OK, I'll probably get flamed for this but I don't think there's any appreciable difference in how low the pins stay for most bowlers. It's an illusion that the guy throwing rockets 25mph with no rotation is just sending pins straight up in the air. His problem is entry angle and deflection. The pins simply don't hit each other at the right positions and that is why so many are left standing. They miss each other.

If you want to know how to keep the pins low, just watch a three year old bowl. They will teach you everything you need to know. The light ball hits the pins a glancing blow and deflects down the line of pins. Because the ball is light the pins aren't hit very hard and they just topple over and roll around. Many are left on the pin deck. This is also EXACTLY what Asians achieve with light balls and the helicopter release, they are just far better at it than a three year old.

[Zaxmazr]

I read about ball reviews that say,,, "it keeps the pins low" ect ect. Has a machine ever been used to test the theory that a certain SPEED actually is best for keeping them low, and thus less 7 and 10 pins. I have seen bowlers that throw very relatively high speeds, resulting in 10/7 leaves!

Can speed be an enemy to a good, or 300 game? It makes sense to me that a lower speed, might actually keep the pins lower!

I know this must have been tested, anyone know the optimal speed?

My speed for regular bowling is 12 mph, whereas my two-handed bowling is like 15+ mph

[Mike White]

Well the rocket engine has to fight against GRAVITY which is keeping it against the ground (Keeping it low in other words) to get away from the earth, Then it falls towards the moon because of the Moons Gravity, ( in other words gravity is pulling it down, getting it closer/lower to the ground . The engine is not pushing it to the moon.



Sure enough



So what your saying here is the ball didn't impart sufficient energy for the pin to over come the force of GRAVITY (in other words the ball didn't hit the pins too hard). So GRAVITY was what kept the pins low to the lane! Not the ball.



So what? all of you just said is what would make a ball goes up, not how a ball keeps the pins low.


I asked this same question over on Bowlingchat:
"How does the ball keep the pins low?
What is suppose to be keeping the pins low? is it some property of the ball? or the angle, speed of the ball as it hits? Or is it just marketing?"

Here's Mo Pinels answer:
The balls doesn't keep the pins low; GRAVITY DOES!!! The rest is BULL PUCKY!!!!!

Here's the thread:
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6804

Yeah that was Mo's answer, but clearly Mo wasn't being serious.

When the impact on the pin is below the center of gravity of the pin, there is a vertical force applied to the pin.
The greater the force, the higher the pin goes.

A possible difference between two different balls that might "keep pins lower" is coefficient of restitution.
But I'm pretty sure it's all marketing gibberish.

Since the only limit on how much force can be applied to the ball is one's physical ability, there is no limit as to how high the pin can be launched other than that physical ability.

[bowl1820]

Yeah that was Mo's answer, but clearly Mo wasn't being serious.

I think he say's a lot of thing's in a light hearted way, But I also think he was serious. he's repeatedly made the statement about gravity in regard to talk about keeping the pins low.


When the impact on the pin is below the center of gravity of the pin, there is a vertical force applied to the pin.
The greater the force, the higher the pin goes.

True enough that explains why pins go up.


A possible difference between two different balls that might "keep pins lower" is coefficient of restitution.
But I'm pretty sure it's all marketing gibberish.
As for "coefficient of restitution" while it might be some small factor, the USBC has a limit set on it (Min. 0.650, Max. 0.750) so I don't think they could making to much of change to to the ball's COR .

Plus That's what he said about it too, it's all marketing gibberish.


Since the only limit on how much force can be applied to the ball is one's physical ability, there is no limit as to how high the pin can be launched other than that physical ability.

Okay the more force you apply to a pin the higher it goes.

So the less force you apply, the lower pin stays.

So that means a ball that keeps the pins low is a weaker ball.

But since marketing won't let us say it's a weaker ball, Well use marketing double talk and say it "keeps the pins low".

[MICHAEL]

Okay the more force you apply to a pin the higher it goes.

So the less force you apply, the lower pin stays.

So that means a ball that keeps the pins low is a weaker ball.

But since marketing won't let us say it's a weaker ball, Well use marketing double talk and say it "keeps the pins low".[/QUOTE]


WHAT?? weaker ball?? Am I missing something here(:/? It can be a strong, mid, or weak ball, but its the impact, velocity that would keep them low or high.

I seen that in action last night,,, Jason, Mr 234 average throws with lots of velocity and Rev's! His pins do cartwheels and look like scrambled eggs flying every which way.... (he gets great results with his speed, but does sometimes have some crazy splits and a few 9 pins last night with what looked like perfect hits.

He gets incredible pin action, maybe better then I have ever seen by anyone!! A lot of it has to do with his unique style of cupping the ball and velocity!

Velocity is not always a bad thing, and in his case the pins go up and flinging themselves in all directions like in a Mixmaster, give him GREAT SCORES!!

I have on the other extreme seen some much slower bowlers do well when their ball weight was at 14lbs or up when hitting the pocket, and yes the pins do stay lower plain and simple.

I have seen some great older bowler in their 80s that are accurate as hell, but the damn 6lb ball was not enough mass to do the job! But,,,, I have seen them use that defection to pick up some ungodly spares, using that lack of weight,,, like a pin ball machine,,, using that deflection to their advantage.

[Mike White]

Okay the more force you apply to a pin the higher it goes.

So the less force you apply, the lower pin stays.

So that means a ball that keeps the pins low is a weaker ball.

But since marketing won't let us say it's a weaker ball, Well use marketing double talk and say it "keeps the pins low".


WHAT?? weaker ball?? Am I missing something here(:/? It can be a strong, mid, or weak ball, but its the impact, velocity that would keep them low or high.

I seen that in action last night,,, Jason, Mr 234 average throws with lots of velocity and Rev's! His pins do cartwheels and look like scrambled eggs flying every which way.... (he gets great results with his speed, but does sometimes have some crazy splits and a few 9 pins last night with what looked like perfect hits.

He gets incredible pin action, maybe better then I have ever seen by anyone!! A lot of it has to do with his unique style of cupping the ball and velocity!

Velocity is not always a bad thing, and in his case the pins go up and flinging themselves in all directions like in a Mixmaster, give him GREAT SCORES!!

I have on the other extreme seen some much slower bowlers do well when their ball weight was at 14lbs or up when hitting the pocket, and yes the pins do stay lower plain and simple.

I have seen some great older bowler in their 80s that are accurate as hell, but the damn 6lb ball was not enough mass to do the job! But,,,, I have seen them use that defection to pick up some ungodly spares, using that lack of weight,,, like a pin ball machine,,, using that deflection to their advantage.[/QUOTE]

The Mixmaster is a phenomenon of the Reactive Resin ball.
Before Reactive Resin, if you threw the ball 20+ mph virtually no ball could create a 4+ degree angle of entry.
Pre Resin, messengers were slow rolling, where you waited hoping it had enough steam to knock over the 10 pin.
With Resin balls, the messenger takes out the 10 pin before you realize you almost left it.

The 9 counts on "perfect" hits come from when the pin motion pattern doesn't strike the side boards early enough (on a front to back scale) to rebound back on to the pin deck.

It's not all the velocity of the ball that effects the height of the pin, it's how much energy is transferred into the pin.
The closer the path of the ball is to the center of the pin, the more energy is transferred.

You can throw the ball 20+ mph, and just wing the pin, and it barely falls over.

[Mike White]

I think he say's a lot of thing's in a light hearted way, But I also think he was serious. he's repeatedly made the statement about gravity in regard to talk about keeping the pins low.



True enough that explains why pins go up.


As for "coefficient of restitution" while it might be some small factor, the USBC has a limit set on it (Min. 0.650, Max. 0.750) so I don't think they could making to much of change to to the ball's COR .

Plus That's what he said about it too, it's all marketing gibberish.



Okay the more force you apply to a pin the higher it goes.

So the less force you apply, the lower pin stays.

So that means a ball that keeps the pins low is a weaker ball.

But since marketing won't let us say it's a weaker ball, Well use marketing double talk and say it "keeps the pins low".

I think you are using the term "weaker ball" in a different context as it was intended.
"weaker ball" usually is in terms of cover stock, and core RG differentials.
With a "weak" ball those values have little to do with how fast a ball can be traveling as it impacts the pins.

I could take a Sponge Bob Viz-A-Ball and hurl it down the lane and knock the pins high.
It doesn't get much "weaker" that Sponge Bob, in every sense of the word.

It would actually be harder to do the same with a "strong" ball because the surface of the ball will
want to make the ball go into a roll.

Some of the energy applied to the ball as forward speed is translated into revolutions on the back end.
The means the forward speed of the ball is reduced.

[Mike White]

Entry angle is VERY important, but there are several different angles that will get the job done! Keeping the pins low was my question, and as mentioned I agree that in part the height of the ball in regards to the pins has lots to do with the defection up, or down! also the speed I would think could amplify the direction they go up, or downward.

Gravity does come to play along with many other factors in how high a pin flies! For ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction! Their is not a ball made, in my opinion that can make the claim that it magically keeps the pins lower,,, many factors are involved.

Now if a ball was made TALLER, Higher from the groundd surface, sure it would tend to hit the pins above their center of gravity, and thus keep the pins low!

But since balls have regulations as to how high they can be manufactured, that will not happen!
The MOST IMPORT thing keeping pins from going into earths orbit when Iceman throws his bowling balls, it GRAVITY!!

If you made the ball taller, you would have another problem, deflection.
At the point of impact, the force on the pin is somewhat in the up direction, which also means the force on the ball is in the somewhat down direction.

If the ball was taller, the force on the pin would be somewhat down, and the force on the ball would be somewhat up.
A ball in the air tends to have a lot less traction with the lane.

A ball will deflect off the pin based on the physics of the impact, however the impact doesn't have a drastic effect on the rotational momentum of the ball.
If the ball has built up rotational momentum (i.e. has revved up) it acts like a cue ball with top right english after driving the object ball into the left corner.
It's path starts out to the right, but surface friction curves the ball back to the left somewhat.

Thats exactly what you want with the bowling ball.

After hitting the head pin the ball will deflect right, but if you have sufficient rotational momentum the ball can "curve" back into the proper place to impact the 3 pin towards the 10 pin.

[MICHAEL]

I would like to see the ball pin/ dynamic's from an above view of ( A pocket hit 7/10 leave)!

[Mike White]

The pin setter tends to get in the way of a good above view.

For a right handed 10 pin, from above you would see the 3 pin hit the 6 pin a little left of straight in line with the 10.
The 6 pin would just barely miss the right side of the 10 pin as it passed by.

A weak 10 pin looks very similar, the 3 pin hits the 6 pin even more left of the straight line with the 10 pin, and the 6 pin barely even makes it to the side board.

So both a weak 10, and a ringing 10 pin are symptoms of the same problem. Too much deflection, not enough drive. Just different degrees of the problem.

[Mudpuppy]

I do believe 17mph is a pretty good speed. Typically my best games are right in the 16.5-17.5 range. Which is typically why my best games have been 2nd and 3rd games. 1st game I typically range 15-16mph sometimes even 14.5. I know it and I tried to adjust it but for whatever reason I just can't pick the speed up in the 1st game. I probably should show up early and just throw one game - even with a house ball or whatever - just to warm my arm up. Either that or do some curls or pushups or pull ups or something. 10 minutes of practice just isn't enough - especially when 9 other guys are warming up. Takes me a full game to really hone in on what speed I want to be at and by the 3rd game I am really tuned up.

Ultimately though I just like to smash the pins. Keeping them low is boring. I want MASS CHAOS when my ball hits.

[mike_thomas93]

I'm more of a low speed low rev bowler. But I want to be able to amp it up a little when I need too. Does anyone know how I can get it done?

[Mudpuppy]

I'm more of a low speed low rev bowler. But I want to be able to amp it up a little when I need too. Does anyone know how I can get it done?

Have you tried growth hormones? Seems to be working well for all the MLB players. Just kidding.

To me your question seems a little broad. In general just throw the ball faster. But that's without knowing why are you a low speed low rev bowler - preference, strength, ability?

[J Anderson]

I'm more of a low speed low rev bowler. But I want to be able to amp it up a little when I need too. Does anyone know how I can get it done?

Speed is relatively straight forward. Current advice is basically to speed up the feet. The down side is that faster feet may cause you to wander off from your normal path or your head may not be as steady as at the slower speed, either of which might affect your accuracy.

Revs are harder for most people to adjust. Many of us, if not most, get fewer revs the harder we try to make the ball rev up.

Personally, I think that amateur bowlers need to keep their games simple. While only moving side to side or changing to a weaker or stronger ball is not enough in my opinion, having too many options can lead to confusion. That could be even worse than leaving a bunch of flat tens.