Recent technique videos for noeymc

[Aslan]

Okay...let the embarrassment begin!

Set-up: This is a video of an old school stroker approach. True senior citizen league, low mph, low rev rate. So it's NOT very exciting.
Backstory:
1) Yes, it's cosmic bowling...and I HATE that...but I guess all day on holidays is cosmic bowling. Sorry.
2) This is the first attempt. My mother is the camera-person and hopefully during the next round she'll be better about moving to the side to see the ball hit the pins.
3) I am NOT photogenic...so small children or fragile elderly people should leave the viewing area.
4) I had the videos done in the 5th and 10th frames...over a few games where I shot a 116-126-212. I wasn't getting much reaction from the ball...so I had to move a little towards the middle and it took me the first couple games to get it all figured out.

Any help/advice/critique/etc... is appreciated. I'll add my self critique below each link...although I don't know what I'm talking about so keep that in mind.

Approach 1: http://youtu.be/V5WKEtiqe9k
I noticed my balance arm wasn't out.

Approach 2: http://youtu.be/JA4pZURJFx0
unbalanced, missed right

Missed Spare: http://youtu.be/RmlyOuQzYR0
Balance arm not out, missed my mark

Thumb stuck: http://youtu.be/6bsRfraqf2Q
My thumb got stuck in the ball...the only negative to switching to fingertip grip...this occasionally (1-3 times per series) happens.

Approach 3: http://youtu.be/mN0SiDXmjZI
Picked my balance leg/foot up.

Approach 3/Picking up the 6-10 spare: http://youtu.be/BtXsTI_7IyY
Didn't appear to use my balance arm.

Approach 4: http://youtu.be/jXqBhPcBDMk
Again, didn't keep my balance arm out.

Approach 5: http://youtu.be/q_g_-8o2n-s
I just missed my mark. I thought if I stood there and tried to curve my body that it would "nudge" the bowl over...didn't work.

Approach 5/Picking up the 1-2 spare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewdq5sgEVKU
One of the silliest looking approaches as my balance arm wasn't out, I picked up my balance leg, and was completely unbalanced as I stood there like a drunk ballerina.

Approach 6- left the 7 pin: http://youtu.be/sqoyeTm1VQU
Seems like my balance arm is too far down.

Approach 6/Picking up the 7: http://youtu.be/M-i_OIUf_Hs
Again, balance arm seems nowhere to be found.

Approach 7/STRIKE!: http://youtu.be/yAe-YjudSKU
Picked my dang foot up...but it was the first of 5 straight strikes...so I'm not complaining. : )

Thanks!

[J Anderson]

You didn't look like you drank too many beers before donning your tutu;)

Seriously the balance at the line doesn't look horrible. Your balance arm does get up and out, I'm not sure if it drops down too fast. I really don't think about what my left arm and right leg are doing. I just figure they'll do what ever they have to to keep me from falling over like a dead tree.

It does look like you're lofting the ball way down lane. The ball should touch down anywhere from 6" to 2' past the foul line. the exception is when the heads have little or no oil left on them.

[Aslan]

It does look like you're lofting the ball way down lane. The ball should touch down anywhere from 6" to 2' past the foul line. the exception is when the heads have little or no oil left on them.

See...I agree with that! But my coach/instructor is fairly adament that I need to throw it "out". I think he's trying to get my follow-through extended rather than me set the ball down and do some half-way follow through. But yeah, while I do hit the pins better "tossing" it...I do lose a lot of momentum and ultimately pin carry.

[vdubtx]

Lofting I have learned is good for when the heads dry up as J Anderson explains. I have incorporated lofting to my game this past summer but I only do so when I see my ball reacting in a way indicative of dry heads. Lofting it just enough to get a bit more skid before the ball gets into it's roll.

[Hampe]

Hard to tell with the lighting, but I would say the most glaring thing is you need to bend your knee more on your slide leg.

[MICHAEL]

Mom like approach 7!! lol Hey,,, Mom's are GREAT, you got to love them!! Well Lion of the lanes, you are on your way!! It will be fun look back on this in a year or so! Not bad.....
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/5dbba919-f058-45e2-beda-f7ec67784939_zps3f28015a.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/5dbba919-f058-45e2-beda-f7ec67784939_zps3f28015a.jpg.html)

[Aslan]

Hard to tell with the lighting, but I would say the most glaring thing is you need to bend your knee more on your slide leg.
Another area where my coach is working a little in the opposite way. I used to have a pronounced slide and knee bend...but it also tended to make me bend over/forward at the foul line. So my instruction has been...shorten the approach...stand up straighter...loft the ball. Very unconventional compared to what I'm used to.

I'm gonna practice tonight after work...and after seeing the video and hearing the comments...gonna spend a little more time focusing on keeping my balance arm out, not lofting the ball as much, and bending that sliding knee a little more! Thanks!

[Hampe]

Well if that's what your coach is working with you on.....maybe better to just listen to him. It sounds very unconventional to me as well though...I don't recall seing to many good players standing that tall/straight at the line.

But it's important to remember there's no one perfect way to play. For me, bending the knee helps with my slide, balance, and aim (being in line head over the ball). If I were coaching someone that's what I'd teach them.....but I'm not a coach, so.... :D

[Aslan]

It's hard to argue with the guy...he just walks up to the foul line and chucks the ball out there...gets a strike. No balance arm, no sweeping balance leg, no slide, virtually no back swing. But it friggin WORKS!

[classygranny]

Do you mind me asking what certificate level or level of coaching this coach has?

Seems to me, that if he felt your knee bend caused you to bend at the waist, he would work on the bending forward, that sometimes is fast timing (my issue). I can't get to the videos again, but some things that cause fast timing can be starting the ball too late in the swing, too fast on the feet, or too long of a first step. I can't recall if I saw any of these first time through and now I can't go back and review.

I still standby the fact that you need knee bend, good timing, and some loft (previously noted) - you want to bowl the best you can and have as consistent of an approach as you can; not like another person or coach. Own your own game. If it feels wrong - don't do it! It will be harder to correct...try a few things on your own and see what feels good and works, then work from there. Tell your coach you are not comfortable with no knee bend (boy, is that knee gonna start hurting soon) and see what he suggests.

[J Anderson]

It's hard to argue with the guy...he just walks up to the foul line and chucks the ball out there...gets a strike. No balance arm, no sweeping balance leg, no slide, virtually no back swing. But it friggin WORKS!

So your coach is trying to make you bowl the same way he does? If that's the case, get another coach. A good coach works with you to find a technique that works for you. He or she starts with basics that work for most bowlers and tweak things from there. This guy sounds like some one who developed an odd style that works for him and thinks it should work for every one.

[Aslan]

Tell your coach you are not comfortable with no knee bend (boy, is that knee gonna start hurting soon) and see what he suggests.

Uhhh...yeah...it does. : (

HOWEVER...since switching to fingertip grip...my fingers don't hurt anymore...so I gave up the finger pain and got knee pain.

[Aslan]

Do you mind me asking what certificate level or level of coaching this coach has?

Bronze? Level 1? I don't know. I shouldn't even call him a "coach" since:
1) He's only worked with me 3-4 times.
2) He refuses to take money for it.
3) I haven't seen him around the last couple weeks.

He's just a pro shop pro that helped me after I bought my ball. I think I need to incorporate some of the things he told me (staying straight, follow-through, not having an extended slide) and insert them into my style which is to have a balance leg sweep, bend my knee, etc...

[classygranny]

[QUOTE=Aslan;90546]Bronze? Level 1? I don't know. I shouldn't even call him a "coach" since:
1) He's only worked with me 3-4 times.
2) He refuses to take money for it.
3) I haven't seen him around the last couple weeks.

He's just a pro shop pro that helped me after I bought my ball. I think I need to incorporate some of the things he told me (staying straight, follow-through, not having an extended slide) and insert them into my style which is to have a balance leg sweep, bend my knee, etc...QUOTE]

GOOD IDEA!!!

[Aslan]

I'm gonna practice tonight after work...and after seeing the video and hearing the comments...gonna spend a little more time focusing on keeping my balance arm out, not lofting the ball as much, and bending that sliding knee a little more! Thanks!

Well, focused on keeping my balance arm out and trying to keep my balance leg on the ground. I wasn't able to work on the knee bend or the lofting of the ball because I only bowled 6 games and if I think about too many things at the same time...disaster. Next time I practice...maybe friday...I'll try to work on getting lower with the knee bend and releasing sooner. Right now my loft seems to have the ball landing about 12ft out from the foul line.

[Aslan]

I do agree with JAnderson though. Looking at some releases of the pro bowlers...much lower to the lane... 2-6ft out (versus my 12ft).

[Hampe]

and if I think about too many things at the same time...disaster. Yep....definitely don't want to try and fix everything at once. That will only get you confused and frustrated. If that guy's not a coach then you'll definitely want to take everything he shows you with a grain of salt. Some guys have horrendous approaches that nobody in their right mind would teach a beginner, but are very successful with them because they've been playing 4x a week for 30 years. Like Granny said, your best bet is building up your own game that is comfortable for you....listen to tips from other bowlers, be prepared to try new things, and just take with you what works.

Remember, we aren't pros. We will never have "flawless" form (nor do we have to). Your aim should be to have the most consistently repeatable shot that is easiest for you.

[vdubtx]

I do agree with JAnderson though. Looking at some releases of the pro bowlers...much lower to the lane... 2-6ft out (versus my 12ft).

Bowled against a guy last night that was lofting the ball, I kid you not, at least 20 feet down lane. He is a regular at this house it seems as the other bowlers or center employees did not say a thing about it. Wasn't very accurate with his shots needless to say.

[Aslan]

Yeah, while I think 6 inches to 2 feet is a bit too short of a release and would definitely cause me to bend over forward...I do think it would do me good to cut my loft in half. Fortunately, those dots are exactly 6ft out so I'll have a visual cue. Next time I practice (hopefully friday afternoon), I'll try to get the ball on the lane in front of those dots.

Like I said though...the pro I've been working with...he literally lofts the ball 20ft down the lane...and I swear that guy can strike 7 out of 10 frames. He doesn't even wear bowling shoes...so no slide...just walks up, short back swing, linear swing, excellent follow-through...BAMM.

[Aslan]

Well...did a little practicing today...7 games. I'm hardcore like that. AND...I did it with a kidney stone issue (which is why I wasnt at work). Anyhoo...

The first game I tried to use the dots rather than the triangles as targets. And, while it did force me to get lower and not loft the ball as far...it just wasn't helping my accuracy at all and it felt unnatural.

BUT...after re-targeting the triangles...I did try to get lower with my release...but not bend over. And that DID seem to work okay. I'm still lofting it about 10 feet though. But if I bend that front knee and get lower, it's less of an arc...so there's no "thump" when it lands and it looks more natural.

In game 6...I had 4 frames where I left the 10-pin...and didn't pick it up in THREE of the opportunities. THAT stunk. I have to get better at picking up the 10-pin or I have to un-retire the Blue Knight. FOUR times...and the dang thing went in the gutter 2 and missed to the left once. Ridiculous!

And that brings me back to loft. While I've reduced my loft on the strike shot...I've found that giving the ball MORE loft actually was beneficial in picking up spares. At one point, trying to pick up the 4-7...I must have launched that bad boy almost 30 feet before it made contact with the alley...and it was nearly dead straight on. How could it not be? It can't hook or move in the air right?

And FINALLY...my time was almost up...so I took my wrist support off and just started "playing for fun". Strike...spare....open...spare...spare...spare.... spare...etc... In a nutshell....when I just relaxed and aggressively went after the pins...I did AWESOME!! I ended up with 2-3 open frames and a 156. I didn't strike much...but it FELT AWESOME!!!

So my learning points from this round...don't aim closer...but bend that knee more to reduce arc on the loft. Continue to trust your spot....continue to make sure you have a good follow-through...but RELAX. HAVE FUN!! Just THROW THE BALL!! I have a naturally good approach and form...and I need to trust that and not start going through a 17-item checklist as I'm taking 3 steps towards the foul line.

[J Anderson]

Well...did a little practicing today...7 games. I'm hardcore like that. AND...I did it with a kidney stone issue (which is why I wasnt at work). Anyhoo...


And FINALLY...my time was almost up...so I took my wrist support off and just started "playing for fun". Strike...spare....open...spare...spare...spare.... spare...etc... In a nutshell....when I just relaxed and aggressively went after the pins...I did AWESOME!! I ended up with 2-3 open frames and a 156. I didn't strike much...but it FELT AWESOME!!!

So my learning points from this round...don't aim closer...but bend that knee more to reduce arc on the loft. Continue to trust your spot....continue to make sure you have a good follow-through...but RELAX. HAVE FUN!! Just THROW THE BALL!! I have a naturally good approach and form...and I need to trust that and not start going through a 17-item checklist as I'm taking 3 steps towards the foul line.

Don't worry, we won't tell your boss:;)

There is a school of thought that goes if your ball is the correct weight you shouldn't need a wrist support. The support should be used more as a training device to teach your hand/wrist the correct position to be in than anything else. You'll notice that in PBA events from the 80s & 90s it seemed like every pro wore some sort of wrist device. Now even the guys who used to wear them are sporting the naked wrist look.

I think Billy Welu used to say,"Trust is a must or your game is a bust". That's why you practice. To make the motions of your delivery automatic and to get in the habit of hitting your target so that when you get up in a real game there's no doubt that your ball is going to go where you aim it. Any check lists are reserved for the minute or two before you step onto the approach and pick up your ball.

[Aslan]

Now even the guys who used to wear them are sporting the naked wrist look.

I think the other reason for that is the trend towards massive hooks, strokers, 2-handed, etc... Now even classic stroker type bowlers will cup their wrists inward to get maximum hook. The "good ole days" where you were taught that the wrist should always stay straight...a thing of the past.

[Aslan]

Okay...first...thanks mods for changing the kick*** name of my last video thread from "Aslan's displays of Embarrasssment" to "How to post videos"...which provided me with over 20 minutes of entertainment as I tried to locate it and update it. :mad:

Now, noeymc and I have had our personal differences, but he offered to help improve my game if I'd agree to listen to him. So I figure why not? My current strategy of...well, everything else...not working.

So, mini-backstory...the previous videos...similar approach after coaching...but it was dark and during cosmic bowling. I changed my approach, made it a little more flamboyant...scored a bit higher...but more erratic. So after some coaching...back to a more simplified approach.

Video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdbf5iV-tqg&feature=youtu.be)

Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVRfWPtNjU&feature=youtu.be)
Don't bother watching past the first ball. The phone/camera was acting up and then the pin setter knocked over the 4-pin I left...so I turned it off. I did pick up the 4-pin though. That was near the end of my 182 game one so things were going relatively well at that point.

Video 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtUuNdJZTQI&feature=youtu.be)
Strike. Things started going downhill from there.

Video 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erUneVEhhj8&feature=youtu.be)
On this video...I throw the first ball in the gutter. You can hear a drunk, female opponent cough loudly on my approach. Things were already going downhill at that point...but I wasn't very happy needless to say. :mad:

Video 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-m1zNpYczE)
Left the 10-pin. Missed badly trying to pick it up.

Video 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx1UWCMX6S8&feature=youtu.be)
Left the 10-pin again...missed it again, but came closer this time.

So there ya go Mr. Noeymc...I look forward to your hints/help/instruction!!

[JaMau24]

I wish I were there in person to give you some help. Your form and approach needs a lot of work. I would suggest looking into getting a coach or getting some lessons if you are very serious about getting better. Even one session could help you drastically.

[bowl1820]

Okay...first...thanks mods for changing the kick*** name of my last video thread from "Aslan's displays of Embarrasssment" to "How to post videos"...which provided me with over 20 minutes of entertainment as I tried to locate it and update it. :mad:

No problem, since in that post you were originally asking a site support question "how to post a video?" and it was posted in the wrong forum for that.

Once the question had been answered you should have started a new thread to post your videos and to ask for help with your technique.

Plus having a more informative title can help with you getting better and faster responses.

Just like this post was posted in the wrong forum, the support/feedback forum is for things related to using the site. Not the place to be asking for help with your bowling technique.

So that is why it has been moved to the forum Technique, Mental, and Physical Bowling Help.

Since you started a new thread I also moved the posts from that other thread to here, since they are part of this topic so they wouldn't be lost.

[Aslan]

Just like this post was posted in the wrong forum, the support/feedback forum is for things related to using the site. Not the place to be asking for help with your bowling technique.

So that is why it has been moved to the forum Technique, Mental, and Physical Bowling Help.

It was originally posted in this forum...then got moved to support (because as I tried to post links to videos I couldn't figure it out)...so I kept it where it got moved to (support/feedback)...which was "not" the right place...UNLESS...I were to also ask how to post videos...confusing.

See circlecity....this is why sometimes we have to be careful what we ask for. More moderator involvement... = massive confusion. :p


Since you started a new thread I also moved the posts from that other thread to here, since they are part of this topic so they wouldn't be lost.
You're a gentleman and a scholar. Thank You.

[Aslan]

I wish I were there in person to give you some help. Your form and approach needs a lot of work. I would suggest looking into getting a coach or getting some lessons if you are very serious about getting better. Even one session could help you drastically.

I think you might have missed the post(s) where I discussed that I've already had multiple "lessons". This "revised form" is the direct result of those lessons.

What specifically stood out as an issue??

[Aslan]

I was surprised in Videos 5 and 6....the bowler to my right is actually a high average bowler...but in watching his form on video...I was surprised how erratic his form looked. Most of the time it looked like he was on the verge of falling over.

[bowl1820]

It was originally posted in this forum...then got moved to support (because as I tried to post links to videos I couldn't figure it out)...so I kept it where it got moved to (support/feedback)...which was "not" the right place...UNLESS...I were to also ask how to post videos...confusing.

See circlecity....this is why sometimes we have to be careful what we ask for. More moderator involvement... = massive confusion. :p


You're a gentleman and a scholar. Thank You.

Sorry for the derailment here but..

I'll explain this confusion

The new thread you started "Recent technique videos for noeymc", was not a site support question/thread. It was about critiquing your bowling videos, So it did not belong in the site support forum.

So it was moved to the forum "Technique, Mental, and Physical Bowling Help." where those type of threads belong.

[Aslan]

I get it. Settle down. I was just kidding you. :cool: It's fine...wonderful, and I look forward to noeymc's wisdom either here or via PM. He promised me 15 pins increase in average...and I need +26 by March...so i'm very excited!!

[vdubtx]

Aslan,

You have zero knee bend at your delivery. Get down closer to the line, follow through and roll the ball vs. throwing it. You don't need to loft at all, some conditions yes, but from what I see your ball barely even hooks anyway.

The person to the right of you(5&6) was just not posting their shot due to bad timing. You at least post your shots, just need a better delivery of the ball.

[noeymc]

ill post it here so everyone can agree or disagree with this advice but your timing is way off and your footwork isnt very good so i think for right now we will try to fix thos 2 things first and we will see where we go from there

its not a race slow your feet down slow is smooth smooth is fast ;)

and lets go to a 4 step approach for the time being ( question do you have any knee problems?) i ask that cuz you dont really slid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TkbVLkzlps this will show you a 4 step try working on this chris is known to be one of the most fundamently sound bowlers in this day and age prob the most this is a great video to learn from

(tip when u push away make sure you push towards your target will help you hit it)

i am only giving you 2 things to work on now 2-3 is the most id recommend working on at any given time so please remember it takes any where from 3000-4500 reps to convert something to muscle memory once you feel u have masterd these things post another video and is there any way u can get a side view like stand 2 lanes right and have someone record you?

i hope u give this a real try

noah

sorry didnt see everyone post in here this is what i would work on first is getting that 4 step apporach from there we have a base also note that you see how chris barns stand tall like a tree at the start =D

and you do a good thing by posting your shot keep doing that!!!

[noeymc]

a good tip on the right amount of loft for your everyday shot is lay your towl on your lane and toss it right past it

[Aslan]

your timing is way off and your footwork isnt very good so i think for right now we will try to fix thos 2 things first and we will see where we go from there

its not a race slow your feet down slow is smooth smooth is fast ;)

and lets go to a 4 step approach for the time being ( question do you have any knee problems?) i ask that cuz you dont really slid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TkbVLkzlps this will show you a 4 step try working on this chris is known to be one of the most fundamently sound bowlers in this day and age prob the most this is a great video to learn from

(tip when u push away make sure you push towards your target will help you hit it)

and you do a good thing by posting your shot keep doing that!!!

1) Okay...slowing down.
2) Okay...will try Chris's timing/approach tips.
3) Okay...will push ball toward the target.
4) What is "posting"?

I do have past knee and ankle issues. You can see I have a brace on the left leg; which helps. Old baseball injury.

Just as a sidenote (FYI):
1) The approach you see is 1/3 the speed of my previous approach (where I actually had both feet off the ground between steps 2 and 3).
2) I thought I was already doing what Chris was saying in terms of a 4-step approach, but I guess I need to actually think about it as I do it...maybe I thought I was doing those things but wasn't.
3) Again, I push the ball forward...I never contrated specifically on pushing it towards the target, so I will try that.

vdub- Realize that my coach has given opposite advice and wants me more upright/lofting the ball. I'm not sure what his reasoning is...but I think initially it was to get me straighter and to not lean over the foul line. I used to have a much lower release point similar to what you're suggesting. And, Barry Asher mentioned the same thing...to get lower...and I DID give it a try...but it wasn't working very well. In order to release the ball earlier (decrease the loft)...I have to get much lower and aim for the dots rather than the arrows...otherwise I "drop" it. I was having tremendous difficulty with precision by trying to lay it down earlier...which makes sense from a Physics standpoint because the sooner the ball starts down a path that is slightly "off"...the more "off" it will be at it's endpoint.

I WILL try to get lower as part of this noemyc experiement...I'm not "argueing" and have committed to give this a real try. I just want you (and others who have criticized my willingness to "listen") to realize this is an area where I've received inconsistent coaching. And also, this "may" (I'm not sure though...will have to try it) be limited by my ability to bend my left knee. Previous attempts to get low and get a good slide resulted in being unable to bowl more than 2-3 games per night and spending part of the week "limping". :(

[noeymc]

aslan i am posting this i hope you read it on the knee thing if it hurts to bend dont do it and i am glad you have slowed down some your self but even more if you can

http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/btmBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=288

[bowl1820]

1)
4) What is "posting"?
(

Posting is where you hold your finish position until the ball hits the pins. If the shot was made properly you should have no problem maintaining a balanced posture.

This also allows you to watch the ball and pins reactions.

[Aslan]

Posting is where you hold your finish position until the ball hits the pins. If the shot was made properly you should have no problem maintaining a balanced posture.

This also allows you to watch the ball and pins reactions.

That was my guess. Thanks.

Well, gonna post my scores for practice night in my scores area. Initial attempt/take:

1) Trying to slow down, push ball toward target, backswing for two steps, downswing for one step, and lower my body position...all at once...too much. I can't think about my approach like that. The first few times I tried I nearly tripped and fell down. So I scrapped most of the approach stuff and focused on just pushing toward the target, slowing down, and getting lower on my release.

2) First couple games...not good. 111 and 112. Couldn't strike, couldn't pick up spares, was all over the place.

3) Realized one flaw in my game I hadn't realized before. As I've slowed down my approach...I have slowed down my arm speed, less "muscling"...but I don't have the same "snap" in my release and am getting much fewer revolutions on the ball. I know "muscling" can lead to inconsistency...but I tried to put a little back in, to try and get some revs, with mixed results.

4) In the last 2 games, I scrapped all of my coaches stuff and started throwing my old way...lower approach as vdub and others recommended. I'm worried that my shoulders aren't square...and that affected the 2nd game. But in the first game, I threw a 195. So I may try to keep the lower approach going Thursday. The approach is slower, more of a pendulum swing, virtually no "muscling", and lower. I'm worried I might not be "square" at the foul line though. And I'm worried I might not be getting any revs with this release. A much straighter ball even on low oil. Which...means more splits...more spares.

So...just thought I'd update on the first attempt at the changes and the initial results. Not giving up yet. Just gotta figure out if the new lower approach, shorter approach, slower approach is going to keep working. And then perhaps use the rest of the advice about the timing...maybe one step at a time.

[noeymc]

for go ahead and keep muscling it lets work on just the 4 step and getting u a foundation to build on your scores are going to go down before they go also buddy just a heads up

[JaMau24]

I think you might have missed the post(s) where I discussed that I've already had multiple "lessons". This "revised form" is the direct result of those lessons.

What specifically stood out as an issue??

What particularly stood out was your "ready" stance right before you start your approach. You look like you're waiting in line for something. Look at some videos of some of the pros and notice their stance. Move your feet together, maybe bend your knees slightly, and put your ball in a position where you can start your swing effortlessly.

Another thing that stood out is, it looked like you were 'forcing" the form at the line, rather than just letting it happen, if that makes any sense. Having a good a proper approach, arm swing, and hand position leads to good form at the foul line when throwing the ball.

There is a lot more but it's difficult to get into without showing you. Perhaps you should think about getting lessons from someone else? A different person helping can't hurt. The biggest help you can have without getting lessons is watching approaches on youtube from the pro's and trying to mimic them.

[Aslan]

There is a lot more but it's difficult to get into without showing you. Perhaps you should think about getting lessons from someone else? A different person helping can't hurt. The biggest help you can have without getting lessons is watching approaches on youtube from the pro's and trying to mimic them.

Well, I tried my coaches approach...and my average went up about 45 pins. But only on wood lanes. I got frustrated and did something different with my approach. Rather than slow and short with an easy swing...I started with a long, fast approach with a big swing...lots of speed 20-22mph. And...that had some success...but very erratic. I'd throw 3 180+ games...then the next week throw one 180 game, a 120 game, and a 115 game. And on synthetics, I have to throw a straight ball at that speed...no time for the ball to break/hook.

So, worked with the coach again...ho got me back to the basics. Slow approach, standing straight up, much shorter approach, higher loft. Scores got back in the 160s...consistent.

But then, trying these new techniques...mainly just getting lower, less loft...seems like there's some improvement.

I'll try to focus on the timing/approach more going forward. I tried the first two games on Monday...it didn't go well...but I'll try again. Thanks.

[vdubtx]

What particularly stood out was your "ready" stance right before you start your approach. You look like you're waiting in line for something. Look at some videos of some of the pros and notice their stance. Move your feet together, maybe bend your knees slightly, and put your ball in a position where you can start your swing effortlessly.

Another thing that stood out is, it looked like you were 'forcing" the form at the line, rather than just letting it happen, if that makes any sense. Having a good a proper approach, arm swing, and hand position leads to good form at the foul line when throwing the ball.

There is a lot more but it's difficult to get into without showing you. Perhaps you should think about getting lessons from someone else? A different person helping can't hurt. The biggest help you can have without getting lessons is watching approaches on youtube from the pro's and trying to mimic them.

Have to agree with analysis Jason mentioned here. Your feet are about shoulder width apart, put them together as mentioned. Also comment about forcing the form at the line. One shot the ball was half way down the lane already and then you raised your arm as if to follow through.

Echo again advice from Jason on watching the pro's(I always go back and watch Chris Barnes' 4 step and 5 step approach video when in a slump).

[Terrier]

Nice to see you committed to changing up the swing. IMO, don't get hung up on game scores for now. When changing mechanics, your scores will get worse before they get better. (Your timing will be off for awhile, for sure.) The long-term benefit is that you'll have a higher ceiling if you successfully grasp the changes.

So let's stick with adjusting your steps. JaMau24 pointed out your starting stance. Typically, right-handers start with the feet together and the left foot a couple inches in front of the right. This slightly opens the hips and gets them pointed over towards the target arrows. Norm Duke says the starting position is about getting the feet, the hips, and shoulders in agreement. Sounds kind of gimmicky, but I think it works.

An overlooked benefit of having the feet together has to do with spine tilt (how much you lean over to the right). The good news is that you are doing a nice job of keeping your spine tilted after your first step. However, it's easier to set your spine tilt when you are standing still than to do it while moving your feet and arms together. Bowling is all about repeatability, so on the approach keep the feet together, set the spine tilt, and then start your steps. You'll have a consistent spine tilt that way.

You have a good crossover step with the right foot, but I am not sure what rule of thumb you follow afterwards. I see both cases where your steps are like walking on a tightrope and the other where your left foot does not come back directly in front of the right foot on step #2. Many are coached to step a few boards to the left (w/ the left foot) in order to keep the ball from tucking behind their back on the backswing. Unless you need to do it to keep your swing straight, stick to the tightrope steps for now.

The last two steps of the release go hand in hand. Make the last right-footed step a little shorter than the others, and that will get you to actually slide on the last step with the left. Watch the Chris Barnes video again (link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TkbVLkzlps)) and see how he does it. Note how far Chris's slide foot travels is in front of his body. He can do this because of the push off from his 3rd step. (I emphasize here that it's very important that your shoes match the condition of the approach. That's the reason for the interchangeable slide soles on high performance shoes. As an alternative, you can use a dusting of Ebonite Ultra Slide powder on the bottom of your shoe if you're sticking.) Currently, it looks like you are stepping into the shot during your release.

I know it looks like a lot to think about, but you have some good qualities to your footwork already. Just do a quick checklist:
- start with feet together, left a little in front
- set spine tilt
- step with feet in front of each other (unless you need to straighten out your swing)
- short 3rd step, then slide

[Aslan]

Echo again advice from Jason on watching the pro's(I always go back and watch Chris Barnes' 4 step and 5 step approach video when in a slump).

I tried that last night. I watched Earl Anthony (my fav) vs. Ernie Schlegel.

UNFORTUNATELY:
1) Ernie Schlegel is unwatchable when he wears red bell bottom pants and a sequin shirt. I mean, come on!!
2) Earl in his teaching video harps on using a 4-step approach...but in that match was using a 5-step approach. I don't know...Earl is my boy and all...but that dude is weird sometimes. I think he wrote a book about being a Black Panther or something...it was not well-reviewed...and reading the reviews made him sound sort of "crazy"?? Maybe I need to bump him down to "second fav" and bump WRW up to "fav".

I'll work on the approach. Hopefully I can get in some practice before Thursday leagues. The hardest thing about concentrating on my approach is while I'm doing it...if I concentrate too hard...I end up getting to the foul line and the ball is either already in front of me or way behind me...because I'm so focused on my feet. But...I'll keep trying. I know the scores won't be great in practice...but I can't be messing with my approach during league games. Don't wanna let Bunny and "The Micael Bowltonz" down. :)

[Aslan]

- set spine tilt

What is this again? Spine tilt?



- short 3rd step, then slide

Been working on that. Again, coaching inconsistencies. I used to have a much longer slide...I'd build up a lot of speed on my approach and my 4th step/slide would look almost "professional". But the coach didn't like the speed, giant steps, and long slide so he shortened everything up. Now I don't seem to have enough "speed" to generate a good slide. But I have been focusing a little on the idea of the short 3rd step to push into the slide...just haven't perfected it yet.

One thing that is coming "slow" is the swing timing. The idea of it going back (without muscling) on steps 2 and 3 and forward/release on step 4 (again, no muscling) is very difficult. Like in our discussion on "muscling"...with gravity and force being constant...without any type of muscling...if you don't start that ball out in the right spot...and get to the 4th step too early or late...the ball just isn't at the release point. Thats where consistency comes in. In order to time a pendulum swing to be "perfect" at your release point...applying NO musclling...means your steps must be precisely the same every time.

[noeymc]

go ahead and muscle for now just focus on the video and getting that down once that is down we will work more on timing we need a base to build off of

[Aslan]

Have been working on what you told me to. Last night, stuck with the shorter, slower approach. And my main thought process was "push ball with the first step, back, back, forward".

I also had to remind myself of my usual mantra..."balance arm, snap it! (wrist/release), follow through".

And I also tried to get lower...more of a knee bend, more exaggerated leg sweep.

The first game was frustrating. Scored a 116. Fortunately, the married couple on our team was killing it so I didn't cause us to lose the game. And I was frustrated because it felt like I had "too much going on in my head" on the approach. I like to only think about 3 things maximum when I'm going through the process. Any more than that...I screw up my timing as I'm trying to think rather than just throw.

But then...after 8-13 frames....the modified approach seemed to come more second nature...and that allowed me to focus more on just hitting my target. Still had to remind myself to get lower...but it was better and I rolled a 167 and that was key in a close game 2 victory.

Same thing in game 3; I didn't need to think about it quite as much...it just started to come naturally...scored a 141. I didn't feel like I bowled very well...but still ended up with a score 10 pins above my handicap in that league, primarily because of solid spare shooting.

The only thing I couldn't concentrate on (too much going on in my mind to add another thing) was my backswing. A few times I felt it get too high (above shoulder level). But I was staying focused on the 4 steps and trying to get a good release/follow-through...and was leaving my backswing alone for the time being.

So...working on it as instructed, just thought I'd give an update. Disappointed in the scoring thus far...I want those 15 pins I was promised!!! But....but...its early and I'm encouraged that tonight the approach seemed to become more second nature rather than feeling like I was "forcing it".

[noeymc]

like i did say your scores will drop before they go up and yes only work on 3 things at a time any more then that you will start to make bad habits! i am happy you are really trying this i promise that you will see improvement

[Aslan]

I think I got the approach down.

Worked on releasing the ball sooner, getting lower. Less muscling. Scores were up…I'd say 2 pins over average.

Had to remind myself to snap the wrist and follow through. Was doing better with spares. Even picked up a 3-7 split!

Still not seeing the 15 pins I was promised…BUT…I still have 13 weeks to go and have already seen a 2-pin improvement…so now 13 pins in 13 weeks!!!

Not sure if I'm gonna mess with the release/speed on wood lanes on Fridays. I modified my approach as instructed, but my release on those lanes is working well. It's synthetics where I need to see a big improvement. I have a 164 average on wood lanes. It's the 132 average on synthetics that needs the help. Especially when my wood lanes will be replaced with synthetics next May 2014.

Just thought I'd update.

[noeymc]

ok next work on a push away push the ball towards your mark and let it drop this will help your accuracy

[Aslan]

ok next work on a push away push the ball towards your mark and let it drop this will help your accuracy

Here's my question on that...because I was thinking about it yesterday evening.

If you're starting out left and throwing a ball that arcs back into the pocket...you're obviously aiming at a target slightly right of where you start (for a righty). So if you push the ball forward and follow it (your path)...will you not go diaganally toward the foul line (towards the target rather than straight forward)? Is that okay?

Because, especially when I pulled out the Frantic and stopped using the plastic ball...I started my approach left of center...but when I pushed the ball towards the target (approximately 10 board)...and followed that path...I was ending up more right of where I started. But it wouldn't make sense to push the ball towards the target then walk straight...or the ball pendulum/arc would be across your body (back).

My biggest problem with accuracy at this point is I'm too afraid of boards 1-9. I want the ball to go down the alley and hokk back into the pocket to get more strikes and increase my score. But if I'm hitting left of the headpin consistently...bowling logic says to move left...but then I get too far left and start throwing the ball in the right gutter. So then I gotta move my target. If I move it left and my feet a little left...back to hitting left of the headpin. But if I try to move the target (and my feet a little) to the right...I end up missing right of my target and back into the gutter it goes. That damn right gutter is my nemesis!!

It's less of an issue with my Columbia WD...because I'm approaching more right (2-4 boards right of center) and I'm aiming more at boards 12-13 because that ball is very straight.

[Hampe]

But if I'm hitting left of the headpin consistently...bowling logic says to move left...but then I get too far left and start throwing the ball in the right gutter. So then I gotta move my target. If I move it left and my feet a little left...back to hitting left of the headpin. I'm not sure how this applies to everyone else, but generally when I move more than 2.5-3 boards left, I will need to move my target at the arrows 1 board left. If you are moving both your feet and target left, but still hitting brooklyn, you probably need to move your feet another 1-3 boards. My coach always says 3-4 boards per target board, but I find that applies more the farther left I go.

What helps me with accuracy (especially avoiding brooklyns or gutters) is to look at the break point first, draw a line on the lane from the break point to my target at the arrows, and then try to push off, swing the ball, and follow through along that line. Drawing this line sometimes also corrects my feet after making a line adjustment. For example, I'll move my target 1 board left and think I need to move my feet 2 boards left, and after drawing the line, will notice that I'm not lined up properly and have to move another board left in order to swing the ball along that line.

Dunno if that makes any sense.....it's just what's been working real well for me since I started doing it.

[Aslan]

Okay…UPDATE TIME!!!

Left my phone at work over the Thanksgiving weekend so I couldn't tape myself Friday…but my mother came along for some casual bowling tonight and was kind enough to video.

First…it was Saturday night…so it was dark, it was neon, it was black lit, it was loud, it was annoying.
Second…I was bowling with my daughter so the bumpers were up…
Third…I got "creative" and made the videos into a bit of a "montage"…enjoy!!


http://youtu.be/PGt-xW5RhPo

Okay…this bowling center…is where I play Thursday night leagues…and it is by FAR the heaviest oil, slickest synthetic lanes I've ever played on. But…probably due to the long holiday weekend…these lanes were the driest synthetic lanes I've yet experienced. I mean, it seemed like they probably hadn't been oiled since Wednesday evening.

Approach 1 (98 game): You'll see that I'm starting out near center and throwing at the 10 board/2nd arrow. But I just couldn't keep the ball anywhere near the right side of the headpin. I also had trouble picking up the 10-pin spare…because by back-up ball (Frantic) was hooking more than usual.

Approach 2 (128 game): I missed right of my target, so the ball hit high. Then trying to pick up the spare…the ball was just hooking far too much.

Approach 3 (155 game): I was moving left…but even though I struck, it was brooklyn.

Approach 4 (149 game): You can see in the video; I'm about as far left as I can get…throwing deep inside. I missed a little right so it hit high. Then again…ball was still hooking too much and I missed picking up the spare hitting left.

Approach 5 (111 game): Halfway through the 5th game, I switched balls. I figured the Rhythm was just too strong and I was running out of room inside. So I switched to the Frantic. Took me some time to figure out where to throw it given it was hooking WAY more than it ever has. Left a 10-pin…and even though my spare shooting was improving after flattening out my release…I missed a little right and hit the bumper just before the 10-pin.

So…there ya go noeymc!! You should see a significant difference in form/approach/release compared to my first couple video compilations. Still struggling with "timing". Sometimes it seems that I'm getting to the foul line before the ball is coming down…sometimes it feels like it's at the top of the backswing and ready to come down long before I'm at the foul line.

Gonna do some practicing at these lanes again on Monday. Hopefully by then they've put some fresh oil down or I'm gonna be real pissed come Thursday when all of the sudden my ball is sailing straight up the right side through a sea of oil.

[noeymc]

you gotta follow thour more once the ball is out your hand it stops keep it going up that should help with you going left right of your mark and thats somthing simple u can incorporate into your game

[Aslan]

you gotta follow thour more once the ball is out your hand it stops keep it going up that should help with you going left right of your mark and thats somthing simple u can incorporate into your game

THANKS!!

I actually noticed that as well after seeing the videos. I also can't tell from the videos (thanks to stupid cosmic bowling lighting) if I'm facing forward or slightly right after the release. Hopefully a better lighting situation next time.

[vdubtx]

Looking better than the last set of videos you posted. You have a right lean of your torso to your approach, wonder if that is causing some issues with targeting etc.

[Aslan]

Looking better than the last set of videos you posted. You have a right lean of your torso to your approach, wonder if that is causing some issues with targeting etc.

Yeah…I'm not sure…the lean doesn't seem bad…but then I see it on the video and it seems more pronounced. Something to think about.

I actually was having a good night of hitting my target…only missed a couple times per game tops. But just couldn't keep the ball on the right side of the headpin due to lane conditions. It was a very weird feeling playing the extreme inside line…first time trying that. It just makes me feel like I'm throwing it directly at the gutter…hard to trust that it's gonna turn before it slides in the gutter when you're throwing it at that angle.

[Aslan]

Well, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeHE6RNLAlM&feature=youtu.be is the newest installment of "Aslan Learns to Bowl" and "Noeymc Teaches Aslan to Bowl".

Not sure if I've moved forwards or backwards. Seem to be "chucking" it more than I was. And I still have that weird footwork thing going on where I kinda "skip" towards the foul line.

I try to concentrate on my balance arm…but I get too lost in focusing on timing and then being scared of the foul line and release that I often forget.

Oh well…enjoy, critique, be entertained….etc...

[sprocket]

You have got to get rid of that loft. You are releasing the ball way too late. You are completely past the leverage point. You try that where I bowl and the ball will skid 60 ft. Next time you practice step back on the approach and try your very best to set off the foul light by rolling the ball over it. I doubt you will be able to do it but the attempt should get your swing plane flatter and get you releasing the ball earlier and ROLLING the ball.

[vdubtx]

Agreed about getting rid of the loft. Also, your first step seems so labored and forced. Loosen up a bit and just take a step as you would walking normally.

[Aslan]

You have got to get rid of that loft. You are releasing the ball way too late.

Why? NOT being argumentative and I appreciate the feedback (and actually have been trying to do just what you are saying). I'm just wondering "why" high loft is so bad?


You try that where I bowl and the ball will skid 60 ft.

Well…quick backstory…in an attempt to help me with this problem:

1) I was taught to loft it like that by a bronze level USBC coach that also lofts is like that and carries a 201 average.
2) I STOPPED lofting it after joining a league on heavy-oil synthetics and having the ball not react to the lanes. I was essentially not giving it enough time on the lane to react TO the lane…and it just would skid right of the headpin. I had to resort to a straight shot and hope that my excessive speed/momentum would help me.

3) One coach at a clinic wanted to get rid of the loft and speed (19+mph). The other coach (previously mentioned) just wanted to get rid of the speed. So I shortened my approach, lessened my backswing, and tried to reduce the loft.

4) The ISSUE I've been having is that the loft is a result of my upward swing. That upward swing allows me to impart revs on the ball. If I lose the loft….I lose the revs. So in other words, rock meets hard place, because I can either swing with too much speed and loft but some revolutions…or I can lose the speed and loft and revolutions…and in both scenarios…the ball tends to miss right.

So…long story short…you're right. And I've tried to lose the loft. I've managed to slow things down considerably…but I'm really struggling to get revs without that loft.


Agreed about getting rid of the loft.

Weird thing is….again, not arguing…thankful for the help (noeymc seems to have abandoned me)…just stating an issue: I actually bowl better with the loft. I got rid of it…and seemed to do "okay"…especially on heavier oil synthetics. Got the ball to react a little bit better. But then I started playing in a few other places and I gotta admit…I do better with the loft. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT…nor does it mean I ain't gonna try and change it. I just have to find a way to make the low-loft swing/release work better.

And as I said above…the REAL ISSUE is I can't seem to get REVS without that upward "snap"….and the upward "snap" leads to the loft. I've tried to use the same movement and just release earlier…but the ball seems to "fall off" my hands before I can impart the revs.


Also, your first step seems so labored and forced. Loosen up a bit and just take a step as you would walking normally.

Yes. It's very akward and I hate it. I also hate (if you look real close or slow the video down you can see this) that I seem to "hop" or "skip" during my approach. The reason the 1st step is/seems so akward/forced is I've had to work to stop my natural tendency to "run". So coaches have had me move up to just in front of the front dots. Also, I've been working a lot on my timing and that akward first step is happening as I push the ball out forward. I used to use more of a hinge type of forward motion with the ball…but at a clinic I go to, the instructor wanted me to push it out rather than hinge it because I was sort of just "dropping it" and not getting the pendulum effect…which led to me "muscling" it in the backswing, timing issues, etc…


Thanks guys! Obviously, I wouldn't be posting these if I wasn't looking for help/feedback. Well, other than the opportunity to mess with iMovie. But still. I'm hoping once I get my financial stuff in order I might start taking some REAL lessons. I've taken some lessons and done weekly clinics…but I need a coach that is gonna really sort of "own" my game and development process. A person where I can consistently get the same message, the same direction, the same focus areas.

[sprocket]

I already told you why that loft is wrong. Because the ball is past the leverage point. I have no problem at all in saying that either the bronze level coach was misunderstood or just plain wrong. Probably just plain wrong. You're not rolling the ball, you are chucking it just as you described it.

Roll, roll, roll, roll, roll. Roll the ball. Try to roll the ball over the foul line. Don't dump it at the foul line. You could roll a lawnmower tire down the lane right? Good, then roll the ball. I could give you more details about what might be happening from the top of the swing down but that might just over complicate things. Just roll the damn ball. Go roll it across your basement. Now.

[Aslan]

I already told you why that loft is wrong. Because the ball is past the leverage point…... Go roll it across your basement. Now.

But what does that "mean"? What is "past my leverage point"? Thats what I meant to ask. I don't understand what that is.

I live in California. We don't have basements. I know, I know…coming from the Midwest thats a fairly odd concept. Plus I live in an apartment and I don't know if the downstairs neighbor lady would appreciate that.

[tccstudent]

When you loft the ball you are releasing it out in front of you. When you loft the ball you cant stay behind the ball and lift through it to create the good rev's that you want. When you release the ball at the bottom of your swing you can stay behind the ball much easier and lift through the ball generating more revs.

This is you leverage point he is talking about

[tr33frog]

It took me a while to get this, I really didn't like your release just couldn't get proof (see attached picture) that I was seeing what I thought I was. This is NOT where your hand should be, and is why you can't get any rotation on the ball. I saw it in multiple shots, so I think it is your normal release. Your hand should be behind the ball, not on top.

To make your first step maybe a little easier, I had a coach once tell me to start with my right foot half way back from my left. Just a thought. But you do a pretty big crossover, where I just tend to have my right just barely in front of my left, like an inch and half in front. I'm not telling you my way is right, just trying to give you the overall picture.

[bowl1820]

The leverage point is the position at which your able deliver the most powerful shot possible with the least amount of effort. It's around 90 degrees under your shoulder.(meaning release the ball when its next to your ankle.)

A MO quote on excessive loft:
"BOWLING BALLS DON'T HOOK IN THE AIR!"

[Aslan]

It took me a while to get this, I really didn't like your release just couldn't get proof (see attached picture) that I was seeing what I thought I was. This is NOT where your hand should be, and is why you can't get any rotation on the ball. I saw it in multiple shots, so I think it is your normal release. Your hand should be behind the ball, not on top.

WOW! That is interesting. I did not see that before. I'm going to have to concentrate and work on that. That may be why I can't get revs without the loft…because my hand isn't behind the ball enough. OR…that still shot is showing my hand turning. Hard to tell. I'll have to review the video more closely. I know sometimes I come over top the ball. And I know I'm not supposed to do that. But that usually happens if I'm trying not to loft it and still get revs….which I haven't been very successful with.

Thanks.

[Aslan]

A MO quote on excessive loft:
"BOWLING BALLS DON'T HOOK IN THE AIR!"

Who is "MO"?

Also, I use the loft for that reason sometimes. Friday night I picked up a single-pin spare by lofting it about 15ft. Like you said, "balls can't hook in the air"….so it's a nearly foolproof way of throwing a ball straight.

[tccstudent]

Who is "MO"?

Also, I use the loft for that reason sometimes. Friday night I picked up a single-pin spare by lofting it about 15ft. Like you said, "balls can't hook in the air"….so it's a nearly foolproof way of throwing a ball straight.

Mo Pintel from Morich Bowling

[tr33frog]

WOW! That is interesting. I did not see that before. I'm going to have to concentrate and work on that. That may be why I can't get revs without the loft…because my hand isn't behind the ball enough. OR…that still shot is showing my hand turning. Hard to tell. I'll have to review the video more closely. I know sometimes I come over top the ball. And I know I'm not supposed to do that. But that usually happens if I'm trying not to loft it and still get revs….which I haven't been very successful with.

Thanks.

Yeah, it really looked like that in a lot of the shots, and I don't believe your hand would be there even if you were coming up and over then over part is normally after the ball is out of the hand. I'm not a coach, not certified, but that is the thing I would have you work on first. Should be able to get a feel for it, I know I can tell when I cheat and my hand comes off to the side too early, because all the weight comes off. So try and feel the weight. Maybe also throw the ball without turning your hand and just come up straight through the ball like you are about to give yourself a face palm.

[bowl1820]

Mo Pintel from Morich Bowling

It's Mo "Pinel" and he's with Radical Bowling now.

He's the one who developed the Dual Angle layout system. and like Rob Mautner he was also a writer for bowling this month magazine.

Recognized as one of the most colorful personalities in the bowling industry, Mo Pinel has famously revolutionized ball technology several times over the past 25 years. In 1991, Pinel introduced the AMF Sumo, the first mass-market flaring bowling ball. Six years later, he developed the Hammer 3D Offset for Faball, widely credited as the bowling ball that forevermore changed ball design. His most recent venture with MoRich included the development of a number of extremely aggressive bowling balls with strong hook motion.

[josheaton16]

About the release, you could possibly try a wrist brace to help keep your wrist firm. It looks like it is breaking way back and that could be causing you to come to the top of the ball. And about the first step and swing going in motion at the same time, I use a five step approach because I can never seem to start the ball and my feet at the same time. I know this is a major change, but it could be something to consider. And loft is not always a bad thing if you are doing it the correct way. I know a guy that lofts the ball to the arrows but hooks coast to coast. Carries a 215 avg. So it can be done.

[Pauley]

I was having the hardest time staying behind the ball (still do some, but getting better). Like you, when I would freeze frame my release I was on top of the ball even when I was trying to feel like my hand was completely under the ball. This drill (Improve Your Swing & Release: Try the Back-up Drill) helped me learn how to work the back of the ball and stop turning too early.

http://bowlingknowledge.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=62

I dedicated a weeks practice to this drill, along with a lot of release drills at the line and one step drills. Still not where I want to be but getting closer each day. Another thing I have started doing is using video while I practice, I downloaded the Coach My Video app on my phone so I can see frame by frame my release. I teach golf, and in bowling much like golf, what you think you are doing is usually not what you are actually doing. Especially when I am working on something specific I will throw a few, look at the video and try again.

I am FAR from a coach, in fact I think we started about the same time. I just wanted to share what has helped me. Good luck!

[Aslan]

About the release, you could possibly try a wrist brace to help keep your wrist firm. It looks like it is breaking way back and that could be causing you to come to the top of the ball.

I used to wear one and then forgot it at the lanes during my old Thursday league. I got used to bowling without it and actually was bowling better without it so I never bothered getting another one.


And loft is not always a bad thing if you are doing it the correct way. I know a guy that lofts the ball to the arrows but hooks coast to coast. Carries a 215 avg. So it can be done.

I was thinking about this today while I was out running. A person that has a high loft (or a "chucker" as Mike White calls it)…are really doing something very similar to what a thumbless bowler would do…just with less revs.

I bowled with a thumbless bowler and he'd throw the ball into the mid-lane; then it would hit the break point and slam back left into the pocket. And 2-handed bowlers also bowl with that sort of "high loft/high rev" approach. And like I said, my first coach uses that type of shot and is the 2nd best bowler in my Friday league. So I don't think "chucking" is as bad as some people might think. It's just not "typical". I have seen it (in varying forms) online in amateur tournaments and I even saw Mika Koivuniemi do it in a PBA tournament once…although not "as much"…he's so tall and has that big reach so his was more "out" than "up". But yeah…I haven't totally gotten rid of it because while I've made some progress with excessive speed and timing….I've struggled with revs/release.

One thing I've noticed…and the video clip furthers it….is I actually start with the ball at an angle. So, my hand is already toward the outside of the ball before I even start the approach.

My practice day is tomorrow and I'm going to try to start with my right foot a little back…and I'm gonna focus on keeping that hand under the ball and trying to release sooner.

[tccstudent]

Find a video of Mika lofting and focus in on his hand position in relation to the ball I can guarantee it is not going to be at the top of the ball like yours is in that picture that Tr33frog posted
Lofting is a very viable adjustment to ones game.
You keep saying that the synthetic lanes are too slick for you well this is why. You need to learn to stay behind the ball

[Aslan]

You keep saying that the synthetic lanes are too slick for you well this is why. You need to learn to stay behind the ball

I agree. Again, I don't want to come off like I'm arguing or not grateful. Thats the exact reason that I'm trying to change my game to a more "standard" delivery/release. On moderate to heavy oil synthetics…with the limited revs (probably due to that poor hand position/release)…"chucking it" becomes almost a straight shot.

And the difference, in terms of position is:

Normal/low oil/wood lanes:

Left foot: Board 22
Ball Layed Down: Board 11-14
Crosses Arrows: Board 8-11

On moderate/heavy oil synthetics:
Left foot: Board 16-18
Ball Layed Down: Board 9-11
Crosses Arrows: Board 11-14

So, in simpler terms…when playing slicker conditions, I don't get that "arc" out to the 4-9 board area and then back with a smooth arc into the pocket. I instead have to move right and lay the ball down just outside the 10-board (rather than inside the 10-board) and the ball goes relatively straight until it finds some surface and hooks/flares into the pocket. Visually, it's like the shape of a boomerang versus the shape of a candy cane.

I can't really move left because I can't get the ball to come back. My only options are to play the outside or go straight at the headpin. I've tried to slow things down on heavier oil. And that has "helped"…but at the expense of revolutions. So yeah, it's a work in progress. On wood lanes I'm averaging 167 and am a threat on any given night to roll in the 550-650s. On synthetics, moderate-heavy oil…I'd say my average is closer to 140-150. I might get an occasional 210-220 game; but it's rare.

And that's why I gotta keep working! Wood lanes disappear in April! Then it's all synthetics! And I'm tired of leaving the 1-2-4 because the dang ball won't make it back to the pocket. :mad:

[sprocket]

As far as two handers lofting the ball: Most good ones don't unless lofting the left gutter cap. Even then the release starts at the leverage point but continues in an upward motion to get the ball over the gutter cap. The same could be said of a thumbless bowler who always lofts the ball a bunch. Most don't and those that do are either in such a strong position to start with that they can get away with releasing the ball later or they are actually starting their release at the strongest leverage point but are releasing upwards. In either of those cases, unless they are lofting the gutter cap they are almost always releasing the ball WRONG due to bad habits. Some may claim the loft delays the hook. That is only true if the ball lands smoothly. Bounce stops skid and cause the ball to hook early. Mika lofts the ball a fair amount but his release starts at the right point and his ball is simply released on a plane that is still parallel to the lane but is higher up. His ball lands smoothly like a plane coming in for a landing.

You release the ball too late. That is not a debatable point. You need to ROLL the ball. There's a guy on my team who is a fairly new bowler. He rolls the ball a little too much end-over-end. Sometimes he cuts off his follow through. Sometimes he falls off right. But he ROLLS the ball. We can work with the rest of it because he has the most important thing down. His average is improving every week.

[Aslan]

Well, I tried a couple things in practice today.

First, the foot half-way behind the left foot…to shorten that weird first step. THAT seemed to help. So thanks!

Second, keeping my hand behind the ball. That didn't work as well. I was able to do it…but I found that I was actually getting LESS revs…I'm assuming because I wasn't getting the hand out from behind it quick enough.

The lanes were very dry, so I was having trouble staying to the right of the headpin. I left a LOT of single 4-pins…which is not a usual leave for me. I'm assuming it's because I made the move inside to find oil…and neither the Frantic nor the Rhythm seemed strong enough to make the turn back. So I think I was hitting at more of a straight shot to the right of the headpin. Not sure. Like I said, not a usual leave for me…and I figure it's due to playing inside which I rarely do.

[Hampe]

Yea, your biggest problem is definitely the release (narrowly beating out your crazy first step :)). I always recommend building your game backwards from the foul line. Start with the release. A really good drill is something like this one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr9lDk848-g. Get in your finish position, and just nice and easy, practice rolling the ball while keeping your hand behind it.

The next step is to be one step behind the foul line, do the same thing as before, and as the ball swings forward, slide into your finish position. Like in this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHEDiAfxUVo.

Don't give up right away just because your not getting the same ball motion or revs as before. You might get more revs like you're playing now, but it's not the kind of rotation you want to have. You come over the ball and almost throw it helicopter style. You want the ball not only to be rotating, but rotating at the right angle. Once you've gotten the hang of having a proper release, you WILL have much better rotation and ball movement than you do now.

[tr33frog]

Well, I tried a couple things in practice today.

First, the foot half-way behind the left foot…to shorten that weird first step. THAT seemed to help. So thanks!

Second, keeping my hand behind the ball. That didn't work as well. I was able to do it…but I found that I was actually getting LESS revs…I'm assuming because I wasn't getting the hand out from behind it quick enough.

The lanes were very dry, so I was having trouble staying to the right of the headpin. I left a LOT of single 4-pins…which is not a usual leave for me. I'm assuming it's because I made the move inside to find oil…and neither the Frantic nor the Rhythm seemed strong enough to make the turn back. So I think I was hitting at more of a straight shot to the right of the headpin. Not sure. Like I said, not a usual leave for me…and I figure it's due to playing inside which I rarely do.

Glad the foot thing worked.

Solid 4 is generally something you leave when you are a bit heavy on the head pin. I can generally predict that pin on release.

Right now I'd worry less on your rotation, and more on just keeping the hand behind the ball. Once you get used o that you should be able to get the rotation down.

[Aslan]

Those videos were interesting. I'll have to give them a try next Monday.

[tccstudent]

Those videos were interesting. I'll have to give them a try next Monday.

Try the softball drill or the football drill to train your hand on the proper motion it needs to go through You can do this at home while watching TV or whatever crazy fad you Kalifornians are up to now.

[Aslan]

Try the softball drill or the football drill to train your hand on the proper motion it needs to go through You can do this at home while watching TV or whatever crazy fad you Kalifornians are up to now.

I do the football release currently. But if you've ever thrown a football underhand...your hand is never behind it. It's to the side and underneath. Thats part of the reason I'm getting revs and am somewhat successful throwing it the way I am...because I'm able to generate some revs using that underhand football type of motion.

The downside...and this is where the modern bowling guys will jump in...is modern bowlers have seemed to transition to a softball release rather than an underhand football. So now the hand starts from the inner quadrant and shoots off to the side...but if done correctly...the ball still follows it's pendulum trajectory. I seem to struggle with that type of release because I end up moving the ball off it's trajectory when I slide my hand off to the side.

[tr33frog]

I do the football release currently. But if you've ever thrown a football underhand...your hand is never behind it. It's to the side and underneath.

I'd say that you should then switch to the softball because you really don't get many rotations on the ball. I see people that get similar rotation just dropping the ball.

[Hampe]

I've personally never been a big fan of the football drill. To me, it doesn't feel the same at all....mostly because of what Aslan said, your hand is on the side of the ball instead of behind it. You're also rotating the ball sideways instead of at an angle like a bowling ball. I think it does have some use for absolute beginners, to show them the feeling of rotating the ball with their fingers, instead of turning their wrist, but it's not something I would recommend spending hours practicing.

[Aslan]

I see people that get similar rotation just dropping the ball.

Hey! Thats mean. :p

I've tried the softball approach to become more of a "transitional bowler"...but it seems "weird". You're swinging a pendulum swing....back, then forward. The forward momentum of your body and the forward pendulum swing send/propel the ball forward. Okay. That makes sense. And if you come up the side when releasing...you get revs...that makes sense.

But with the modern release (softball drill)...you're starting in the inside quadrant and as you release with the ball momentum going forward...your "release" is taking a straight B-line sideways. Which, in the times I've been trying it, seems to completely stop the pendulum. The pendulum is going forward...then you essentially "stop" it by throwing your hand to the right. And it also confuses me...because it "seems" like that would produce "less" revs. Example:

Hand goes from behind and ends up 90 degrees going up (traditional release). Hand in contact with ball for HALF of the 360 degrees.

Hand goes from slightly inside...then under, then shoots sideways....thats more like your hand being in contact with the ball for LESS than half the 360 degrees...unless you can get you hand completely turned inside (with your thumb essentially up).

I'm still trying it. First step is to train myself to leave that hand behind the ball until the release point. Right now, based on those videos and my observations, I'm "cheating" my hand to the right and cutting down my revs by 1/4 to 1/2. I'd like to see what my rev rate actually is. I saw the videos online, on how to calculate it. And my camera has slow motion so I might be able to do it. Maybe next practice session I'll tape some frames and see what kind of rev rates I'm actually getting. I predict 275-300rpm.

Thanks!

[Aslan]

Tried to shoot a video to analyze the Joe Slowinski DYDS technique but I couldn't find a good place to put the camera phone so I only got this one video and it isn't good enough to submit to Joe for input. But I thought I'd post it for my absent coach noeymc.

I did slow this one down and my hand IS behind the ball. The issue "seems" to be that I start bringing my hand up the side of the ball as the ball is swinging down towards my slide leg so if you freeze it when the arm is parallel to the balance leg…the hand is already towards the outside of the ball.

And BONUS!! For the "ladies"…great views of my fat a*s. And DOUBLE BONUS…for Iceman…at the end you got to see that "pic" you've been begging for!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vMrscuAqWs&feature=youtu.be

[Hampe]

I did slow this one down and my hand IS behind the ball. The issue "seems" to be that I start bringing my hand up the side of the ball as the ball is swinging down towards my slide leg so if you freeze it when the arm is parallel to the balance leg…the hand is already towards the outside of the ball.

Your hand is definitely NOT behind the ball when you release it, which is what we are talking about. Your hand needs to be behind the ball....not (necessarily) on the back swing, but on the release. Here's a side by side of you and me to show you what we're talking about....see the difference in hand position at release?:
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc150/paulh82/Aslan_comp.jpg


Now, I'm not saying my release is the pinnacle of bowling perfection or anything, but you really need to get your hand/fingers more behind the ball throughout the release.

[J Anderson]

I think that your cross over step (2nd step) is too exaggerated. This causes your side tilt to exaggerate and has you releasing the ball too far right of your ankle. You need to straighten out your footwork before you get overly concerned about your release.

Also it looks like your wrist bends back as you start the down swing. I would suspect that subconsciously trying to help the swing get going.

[Aslan]

Your hand is definitely NOT behind the ball when you release it, which is what we are talking about. Your hand needs to be behind the ball....not (necessarily) on the back swing, but on the release. Here's a side by side of you and me to show you what we're talking about....see the difference in hand position at release?:
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc150/paulh82/Aslan_comp.jpg


Now, I'm not saying my release is the pinnacle of bowling perfection or anything, but you really need to get your hand/fingers more behind the ball throughout the release.

Aslan: "Damn. That picture makes me look fat."
Hampe: "No. Your a$$ makes you look fat."

Hampe- Question. I can see what you mean…but what I think I'm failing to grasp is…at SOME point…the hand is BEHIND the ball (for both of us)…and then at SOME point…the hand must either move outside or up the side of the ball to create revolutions. Without that movement…the hand will stay behind the ball through the release and you'll have a straight ball. Am I right or wrong?

I think where my difference/problem is….is that I'm moving up the side of the ball perhaps "too" early in the swing/release? If I look at the video in slow motion, I can see my hand behind the ball…but as I get < 45 degrees from my slide leg…thats when I start rotating my hand. Is rotating earlier bad? I'll try to see if I can release later tomorrow before/during league. Thanks.

[sprocket]

No. The hand doesn't need to move to the outside of the ball. Hampe has some wrist cock, therefore his fingers will move left to right on the back of the ball as his thumb comes out and the wrist unloads. ANY left to right movement of the fingers will cause the ball to have counterclockwise rotation.

Your wrist is in just about the weakest position possible. There is no where to go from there except to continue to hold onto the ball and try to get something on it on the upswing which is exactly what you do.

Here's a visual that may or may not make sense to you: Think about swinging around a bucket of water by the handle. You're swinging it round and round and the centrifugal force is keeping the water in the bucket. Now you want to stop the bucket at the bottom (from full speed, then suddenly STOP) and STILL not spill any water. Think about the motion in your arm that would be required to do that. You would have to "catch" the bucket at the bottom. In order to get into a strong position with a bowling ball at the bottom you have catch the ball. It is swinging freely on the end of your arm and you need to catch it to feel it in your hand at the bottom and impart revs. The reason you currently are able to catch it on the upswing and impart some revs is because the ball HAS TO slow down at that point or it goes through the ceiling. Right now you are only able to catch the ball when it becomes physically impossible for the ball to be accelerating anymore.

I hope that makes sense. I fear more than a few people are going to tell me I'm nuts.

[Hampe]

…and then at SOME point…the hand must either move outside or up the side of the ball to create revolutions. Without that movement…the hand will stay behind the ball through the release and you'll have a straight ball. Am I right or wrong?Well, you're kind of wrong :).

You don't want to come around the outside of the ball during the release, since this will cause the ball to rotate too much sideways. This will still cause the ball to hook, but not quite the way we want it to. Normally you'll want it to be rotating at an angle (diagonally). Like sprocket said, this is achieved through having your wrist cocked.....when you follow through the release your wrist should straighten out but still be behind the ball. If you want to see some good examples of what I mean check out 7:20-8:14 of the "analysis of the modern 10 swing/release" video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nnDbV0znE&t=7m20s). Now, these are pros, so don't expect to be able to have the same amount of wrist cock (insert Beavis and Butthead laugh) as they do, but the first example shows perfectly what we're talking about. Fagan uncocks his wrist and goes straight through the ball. At no point is is hand going around the outside or up the side of it.

Now, if your wrist is straight through the whole release, and you come through the back of the ball, then yes, it will just roll straight.

[Aslan]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this??

I've watched that modern bowling swing like 40 times and I can't figure out how leaving your hand behind the ball doesn't just make the ball go end over end, straight as an arrow.

I completely don't understand "cupping your wrist". And it seems like with the fingers in the inside quadrant...you'd get "less" revs than if you go all the way up the side of the ball. Is the ball revving in a more sideways direction (going up the side) really all that bad compared to that type of "45 degree roll" that you see in the video? Didn't everyone older than 30 learn how to ball with the whole "handshake with the ceiling" type of release?

I'm gonna try and take some videos tonight...maybe if I can get a little pre-league practice in...see if I can't keep my hand more behind the ball. But man...it just doesn't look right. Maybe I'm such a traditionalist....I just can't grasp the concept. How do you cup the wrist if you wear a non-poseable wrist guard??

Thanks for the "help" guys...now I'm REALLY confused. I'm just gonna close my eyes and throw...or maybe perfect the "between your legs" throw. I'll be the Belmo of between your legs bowling!!

[J Anderson]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this??

I completely don't understand "cupping your wrist". And it seems like with the fingers in the inside quadrant...you'd get "less" revs than if you go all the way up the side of the ball. Is the ball revving in a more sideways direction (going up the side) really all that bad compared to that type of "45 degree roll" that you see in the video? Didn't everyone older than 30 learn how to ball with the whole "handshake with the ceiling" type of release?

I'm gonna try and take some videos tonight...maybe if I can get a little pre-league practice in...see if I can't keep my hand more behind the ball. But man...it just doesn't look right. Maybe I'm such a traditionalist....I just can't grasp the concept. How do you cup the wrist if you wear a non-poseable wrist guard??



In one of Norm Dukes videos he mentions that if the fingers start on the inside of the ball and rotate to underneath at release it will give it the rotation needed to hook. on the non poseable wrist guard I think they only keep your wrist from going backward.

[BOWLWEST73]

Looks like from the loft and thumb sticking problem that you may have a fit issue and are gripping the ball too much.

[Aslan]

Looks like from the loft and thumb sticking problem that you may have a fit issue and are gripping the ball too much.

Thats a possibility. Sometimes I have the tendency to grip the ball too much.

I was going to try to keep my hand behind the ball during leagues tonight but ran into some other problems so I'll save it till Monday practice.

[bowl1820]

I think where my difference/problem is….is that I'm moving up the side of the ball perhaps "too" early in the swing/release? If I look at the video in slow motion, I can see my hand behind the ball…but as I get < 45 degrees from my slide leg…thats when I start rotating my hand. Is rotating earlier bad? I'll try to see if I can release later tomorrow before/during league. Thanks.

Yes your turning your hand way too early. Looking at this image of the moment of your release:
http://s5.postimg.org/6ghlbsls7/Attempt_1.jpg

Here you can see your thumb just coming out and your wrist broke back with your hand on top of the ball.

This is close to whats called a suitcase release. (your hand is close to the same position as it would be when holding the handle of a suitcase.).

In that position you'll have very little leverage on the ball, which imparts the least amount power to the ball.

That's why your having to play down the outside in the drier areas and why the bowl doesn't hook much in the oil/slicker areas.


You were also off balance on your first shot, that's why you fell to the right after your release. You had better balance on the spare shot so were able to post the shot better. Try to have that balance on your first ball.

Here's a close up of the hand with a basic release.
http://s5.postimg.org/f3uspszlz/closeup_hand.jpg

[Aslan]

Well, thanks to everyone for the help! Hopefully I'm not being too frustrating. I'm committed to trying to improve my release to a more modern (or at least transitional) style to get better revs and better track to the pocket with better power. I'm just struggling on how. But I'll keep working on it. Gonna take a look at the videos from Friday Night and see what I can see…possibly post them. Then I gotta try and get my ball drilled tomorrow since I destroyed mine during league play.

Since I'm really struggling getting my hand to the inside quadrant and struggling with the modern bowling release, I've been watching a lot of Walter Ray. If you look at some of his slow motion release stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbClQwDASM

He seems to have a release closer to mine. But if you look at some other of his stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAQj2H1u25U, it seems like he's definitely more behind the ball than I am…so I still have some work to do.

And yes, I know Walter Ray will be the first one to tell you not to emulate his style, but we're both similar body types and if his style can win him 47 titles and a Top 2 spot in the Hall of Fame…I guess being "close" to the way he does it can't be all that bad.

[zdawg]

I didn't see this one posted, apologies if it has been but I've been watching it and I found it pretty helpful as they show the releases in slow motion/HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgtfJ72akg8

[Aslan]

Here's more videos!! Didn't have a great night. Lost my ball due to a weird gutter that launched it into the pin setter. So I had to use the Rhythm all night for strikes and spares…and usually I don't even use it at all on these lane conditions.


http://youtu.be/_DCFhs4PX9c

Been working on Joe Slowinski's DYDS method, so that's why my initial stance and approach is noticeably different than past videos. Downside to trying that approach/swing is if you don't get your shoulders back parallel you have a tendency to throw it in the gutter…which you'll see a couple times.

Started out around the 8-board and slowly over the course of the first 5-6 videos moved right. Tried to play inside in the 7th or so video, but the Rhythm just doesn't have that ability to go long to the breaking point and come back, especially with my low revs. So I went back to the 6-9 board but added speed and loft.

Didn't work on the release much during league play…with all the other **** going bad…had too much going on in my head to concentrate on another thing…but will work on that a great deal during tomorrow's practice (if I can get Mike White to drill me a ball today).

[sprocket]

Mommy, I'm scared.....

[vdubtx]

Said it before and will say it again, the loft is killing you. Stop with the loft, it's not needed for the way you play yet. Learn to roll the ball vs. throw it.

[tr33frog]

The position of your hand on release is inconsistent and still not behind the ball very often. The one thing that stuck out for me was the starting position of the ball. At one point the POV was from the left and I could see the ball, why are you not it starting with it to your right instead of center or left of you? You are having to swing it around you right off the bat.

[Aslan]

Said it before and will say it again, the loft is killing you. Stop with the loft, it's not needed for the way you play yet. Learn to roll the ball vs. throw it.

You're right and I'm working on it. I actually can't tell how bad the release is until I see the video. When I'm doing it, it feels like I'm going from behind up the side. But when I watch it in slow motion on the video I can see where in nearly every video I'm rotating my hand to the outside of the but my wrist appears to bent back. I'm going to have start cupping my wrist more. Thanks though. Working on it.


The one thing that stuck out for me was the starting position of the ball. At one point the POV was from the left and I could see the ball, why are you not it starting with it to your right instead of center or left of you? You are having to swing it around you right off the bat.

DYDS: "Drop Your Damn Shoulder" technique starts the ball from inside to outside. It's supposedly more biomechanically sound. So because I'm trying to work with that technique; there are 3 things I'm doing differently (intentionally):

1) Head moved to the right.
2) Ball starts out low and left side of the body with more of a "delayed hinge" movement.
3) A change from 4-step to 5-step where the ball doesn't immediately get pushed out.

You're right; traditional bowlers always had the ball in the center of body mass or out to the right (for righties) and then you do the whole "pendulum swing". But the DYDS technique has it more on the opposite side of the body. At least I "think so". I've only been doing it for 6 days so I'm probably not doing it correctly much less mastered it.

[Hampe]

I'm with Vdub....the most glaring thing is you're still chucking the ball too much. Just roll it man.....nice and easy.

[Aslan]

I'm with Vdub....the most glaring thing is you're still chucking the ball too much. Just roll it man.....nice and easy.

Also, one quick note...in the final TWO frames in that video; the loft and speed was intentional. That ball isn't very good for wood lanes that start to dry up so I tried to move inside...but the ball aint very good for that either...then to close out game 3 I moved back to board 6-11 area and increased the speed and loft to get it further down the lane before the ball started hooking.

That ball I have very good success with on synthetics with medium oil...but because it's symmetric and even MORE so because it has a matte solid coverstock, it wants to start into the arc too soon. It doesn't want to wait to hit the break point and then snap back into the pocket. So on low oil or wood, it's very difficult (especially with my low rev rate) to get that ball to go long. "Chucking" it with a tad more speed (you'll notice the ball in those last 2 frames started higher up, intentionally) makes it go just a little long before it starts to make it's move. And realize, my other ball was destroyed so going to my bag and getting my other ball wasnt an option.

But yes...I'm working on getting it down sooner. Because I'm tall, "rolling" it means I need to really bend that slide foot knee...or else I just drop it. But, I've watched a lot of video on WRW and to a lesser extent Mika, who are both tall...and they seem to be able to get it down sooner...so it must be possible. Release and getting it down sooner are my two priorities right now...gonna get some practice in tonight with the newly drilled ball (replacing the Frantic (R.I.P.))...see how it goes.

[BOWLWEST73]

I am also working on DYDS techniques and I am a tall/large bowler (same height at WWR). A couple things I notice on the last video you posted from Friday. It appears that you have late timing, and you are a "planter". Have you always been a planter? Was your timing better when you used 4 step approach? Personally I have been a 4 step bowler my entire life. I have never been comfortable using 5 steps. If your timing is better with 4 steps, I would suggest staying with that, at least for now until you master the other parts of DYDS more.

Because you have late timing you have to pull the ball down from the top of your backswing. This causes your wrist to break back and immediately puts your hand on top of the ball. To correct this you need to get comfortable letting the ball FALL from the top of your back swing. I would suggest doing the one step foul line drill to work on this. Keep the inside of your elbow facing your target all the way through the swing. At release you only turn your wrist 1/4 of a turn. You need to get a little more bend in the slide leg knee AND MAINTAIN it. You do have some bend in it at the line, but you have a tendency to straighten up (also a function of being a planter).

Work on these things and keep practicing.




DYDS: "Drop Your Damn Shoulder" technique starts the ball from inside to outside. It's supposedly more biomechanically sound. So because I'm trying to work with that technique; there are 3 things I'm doing differently (intentionally):

1) Head moved to the right.
2) Ball starts out low and left side of the body with more of a "delayed hinge" movement.
3) A change from 4-step to 5-step where the ball doesn't immediately get pushed out.

You're right; traditional bowlers always had the ball in the center of body mass or out to the right (for righties) and then you do the whole "pendulum swing". But the DYDS technique has it more on the opposite side of the body. At least I "think so". I've only been doing it for 6 days so I'm probably not doing it correctly much less mastered it.

[Aslan]

Am I the only one that doesn't know the bowling term "planter"? I'm assuming you mean that in the video I appear to "plant" my slide foot. I've actually never noticed that before. I think that is a combination of 2 things. One, I'm getting to the foul line too fast. Two, the ball isn't down yet when I get to the foul line (late timing). I'll have to corrrect that by moving back a bit or taking smaller steps. In some of the shots you can actually see me stop at the line and appear to be almost falling forward as I look down and see that I'm dangerously close to the foul line. Good catch.

But yes, my timing does have a tendency to be late and the DYDS work has actually mad it a little worse for some reason. The problem is, I can only focus on 1-4 things at a time during my approach/release/swing. I used to focus on my:

1) Balance arm being out (helped my balance and keeping my shoulders paralel with the foul line.
2) "Snapping" the release to bring my hand from behind the ball up the side and provide revs (in a non-modern way).
3) Follow-through (hand to the ceiling) and post.

However, folks on here noticed my timing was off and noeymc (my virtual internet coach who may or may not still be alive) suggested I work primarily on timing. So I started counting. Pushed the ball out, 2 steps the ball goes down and back, and on the 4th step I slide and the ball comes forward.

More recently I've went back to focusing on the balance arm and release along with the DYDS concepts.

But with each thing I start to focus on...I tend to forget or stop focusing on something else.

The 5-step approach that I do now is because in the DYDS you don't necessarily push the ball out with the first step as in the 4-step approach...so that extra step allows me to start moving forward before I start the ball in motion. I tried a 3-step and I couldn't do it. I actually fell down once trying to do the 3-step.

So, thanks for the suggestion. In addition to the release (bowlingboards consensus problem), the balance arm (which Joe suggested) being more out and up, and the late timing (that you noticed)...that should give me a lot to work on tonight.

[josheaton16]

Being a "planter" means you don't slide, just plant your foot down. For most people this is because the take their last step heel first instead of sliding on the toes. Agree about the late timing causing your wrist break back. I have this happen as well if I get my feet going to fast.

[noeymc]

you guys are hating on the loft yet it is what college coach teach there players to adjust to the lanes instead of moving left right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KVert1gmw

[Hampe]

Yea......a small amount of loft (1 foot) can be beneficial in the right situation. But I'm pretty sure the coach in the video would agree that chucking the ball 6 feet down the lane as your standard release is probably not the way to go.

[vdubtx]

Yea......a small amount of loft (1 foot) can be beneficial in the right situation. But I'm pretty sure the coach in the video would agree that chucking the ball 6 feet down the lane as your standard release is probably not the way to go.

Agreed. Loft for more experienced players is a very good technique when used like Hampe says, 1ft to 18" or so is what I use to get ball a bit further down lane before it turns when needed. For Aslan with his delivery and lofted shot, it is countering any kind of roll or hook he is trying to get.

[noeymc]

i understand that but dont remove a tool he can use later on when i first learn to bowl i was told to loft it 12 inchs or the length of my towel

[Aslan]

chucking the ball 6 feet down the lane

I think mine is closer to the 12-15ft range. At least it used to be. Most people that first watch me either assume it's a 13-14 pound ball or my thumb got stuck.

But we're working on it. And I do still use it as a tool if I'm having trouble matching the ball to the lane. For example, if it's got a less polished finish...and I just can't keep it right...but moving inside doesn't work either (due to lack of revs, surface, differential, whatever)...I can move back outside and loft it 1-2ft longer...delay the break to further down the lane. In more technical/anti-mudpuppy terminology...it's the way you can take a lower RG ball and make it behave like a higher RG ball.

The trick is...accuracy. Like thumbless and 2-handed...the farther you chuck it...the more likely you are to miss your spot. Not to mention you're doing more "muscling" which can cause your shoulders not to be straight...push it, ya pull it...all kinds of potential for "oops. Darn it."

[Aslan]

Still working on my "slow motion video compilation". I'm having some laptop "storage space" issues making movie editing a bit tricky.

BUT….I wanted to report on my recent lesson with ROB MAUTNER in LAS VEGAS!!!

Yup, thats right…Rob from ModerBowling.com took time out from his article writing and other business to meet me and give me some valuable pointers.

Here is the "jist" of Rob's observations…he's free to provide his own "summary" if I jack it up.

Set-Up/Appraoch:
- ball under right shoulder (rather than left side utilizing the DYDS method).
- short first step, straighten first step (no more funky crossover).
- don't overdue back leg kick.
- Improve release timing.

Release:
- roll the ball, stop "chucking" it.
- stop "trying" to hook the ball.
- release with hand/arm pointed toward the target.

Other:
- Lower backswing and lower speed.

It was a tough lesson. So many of the changes I need to make are changes to things that are so 2nd nature that I don't even know I'm doing them. But, I have about 7 things to work on…I'll have to work on them one at a time or no more than a few at a time….then hopefully I can go back out to Vegas and get lesson #2!!

[vdubtx]

Still working on my "slow motion video compilation". I'm having some laptop "storage space" issues making movie editing a bit tricky.

BUT….I wanted to report on my recent lesson with ROB MAUTNER in LAS VEGAS!!!

Yup, thats right…Rob from ModerBowling.com took time out from his article writing and other business to meet me and give me some valuable pointers.

Here is the "jist" of Rob's observations…he's free to provide his own "summary" if I jack it up.

Set-Up/Appraoch:
- ball under right shoulder (rather than left side utilizing the DYDS method).
- short first step, straighten first step (no more funky crossover).
- don't overdue back leg kick.
- Improve release timing.

Release:
- roll the ball, stop "chucking" it.
- stop "trying" to hook the ball.
- release with hand/arm pointed toward the target.

Other:
- Lower backswing and lower speed.

It was a tough lesson. So many of the changes I need to make are changes to things that are so 2nd nature that I don't even know I'm doing them. But, I have about 7 things to work on…I'll have to work on them one at a time or no more than a few at a time….then hopefully I can go back out to Vegas and get lesson #2!!

Looks like you have some things to work on that have been noticed in your prior videos. :p:cool:

Work on no more than 3 at a time and you will be rolling the ball in no time. :cool:

[Aslan]

Looks like you have some things to work on that have been noticed in your prior videos. :p:cool:



The difficulty is, when I try to drop my ball speed to the extent preached by Rob and others, it feels like I'm just walking up and dropping it.

It may just "feel" that way because I'm not used to it. But when I watch pros release the ball...there is an obvious leg kick and snap to their release...they don't just drop the ball and wait for it to hook on it's own. AND, they're throwing it at 19-21mph...my old ball speed.

So at this point I'm kinda starting from scratch. And I may not be able to go to the lower ball speed right away because I play on wood lanes and will for another 1-3 months. So we'll see if I can keep even the Slingshot to the right of the headpin and such a low speed. Or I could try playing inside with the Rhythm...but it's not really designed for that.

The awakening wasn't Rob's advice as much as it was playing on the lanes in Vegas. Those lanes were as slick or slicker than any I've ever experienced including AMF Carter and AMF Riverside. I simply COULD NOT use my style and win. Much like when I joined the 11-week league at AMF Carter...I was FORCED to change my approach/release because it just wasn't working on the slicker lanes...not with the weak equipment I'm throwing.

So now, I'm back to square one. As simple a game as bowling is, it can be very humbling at times. One minute I'm throwing in the 180s and watching my average skyrocket and doing well in tournaments...and the next thing I know my average is stagnant in the 160s and I throw a 113 in game 1 of sweeps. And given my lack of patience and tendency towards frustration...I NEED to get better. If I can't throw in the 170s-200s...then whats the point? I might as well just quit playing for real and do cosmic bowling twice a month for fun.

The only bright spot of sweeps was:
1) My "coach" that preaches high loft....in game 2 I shot a 135 and he shot a 134. So it was nice to see a 200+ average bowler struggle as well.
2) I shot a very nice 184 in game 3...a single 6 and single 7 pin away from a clean game. Had I picked up those 2 spares; I'd have finished with a clean 208 and might have taken 3rd place in the sidepot for that game.

[Aslan]

Work on no more than 3 at a time and you will be rolling the ball in no time. :cool:

Thats a given. 3 is the maximum my tiny brain can handle at once.

[RobLV1]

Aslan is a very good student. He's a quick study. Being that he lives 4 to 5 hours away, I was forced to go over more things than I ever would with someone local who could easily come back. The first thing that he needs to work on is his alignment, walking straight toward the pins and letting the ball follow the natural line to his target, while rolling the ball rather than throwing it. I think he has very good potential to become an excellent bowler.

[sprocket]

So the first thing he needs to do is all the stuff we have been telling him for months. Rob, hopefully by you telling him and showing him, it will all finally start to sink in.

[Aslan]

I think he has very good potential to become an excellent bowler.

:o


So the first thing he needs to do is all the stuff we have been telling him for months. Rob, hopefully by you telling him and showing him, it will all finally start to sink in.

I'll remember sprocket's snarkiness when I become an excellent bowler.

[noeymc]

Set-Up/Appraoch:
- ball under right shoulder (rather than left side utilizing the DYDS method). yes this is a good thing to work on also push or hinge the bowl towards your target

- short first step, straighten first step (no more funky crossover). the cross over step isnt truly bad a lot of good bowlers do it but your foot should be in front of your other foot a SLOW FIRST step will slow your approach down


- don't overdue back leg kick. as long as your balanced it should truly matter all that much

- Improve release timing. do u do 4 step or 5 step think kicking the ball

Release:
- roll the ball, stop "chucking" it. loft is not a bad thing try setting a towl on the lane from foul line to where ever it ends try to hit at the end of it

- stop "trying" to hook the ball. the shaking the hand release is a good starting point over turning your hand = bad carry

- release with hand/arm pointed toward the target. grab your target with your hand at least thats how i do it

Other:
- Lower backswing and lower speed if your slow your feet down your ball speed will slow down and if you free your back swing up till you feel the float and wait on the ball it will fix these

[Aslan]

I put this together. Kinda messing around with my video editing software to try and get a better look at the release by picking out some frames and show the shots in slow motion.


http://youtu.be/N6Qu3usK1J4

Will probably put another video together a little bit into this spring/summer league season, after I've had a chance to work on some of the stuff Rob worked with me on in Vegas.

[Aslan]

Okay, so, quick backstory:

Started bowling in August, first league in September, first sanctioned league in September.

I bowl primarily in a wood house (for now) and was initially taught a very straight up and down "chuck it/high loft" type of delivery which gets the ball further down the lane before the wood lanes can start affecting it. But, that style didn't work so well on synthetics where I averaged 30 pins lower.

I got some instruction at a local clinic and even started doing the DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder) approach…but my average was still very stagnant in the 160s with only slight improvement over the course of the league.

For numbers geeks:
y = 0.6685x + 489.31
R² = 0.00827

So, knowing Vegas (sweeps) was going to be a problem…I got a lesson from our own community bowling celebrity Rob M. while I was in Vegas. He convinced me to abandon the DYDS approach (at least for now) and focus on slowing things down a bit and really trying to "roll" the ball versus throwing it.

This has produced mixed results thus far…but I AM starting to see some improvement. My average is closer to 170 and my spare shooting in recent weeks has really improved. The downside early on was it became more necessary to have a ball that "fit" the lanes. I was trying to use a solid overstock, symmetric core ball on the wood lanes and it just wasn't working. Once I "gave in" and un-retired the Frantic and "balled down"…things started improving.

Last week was a great week. I bowled much better in my May VBT than I did in my April VBT outing. I then beat MWhite scratch in the recent "ASLAN VS. MWHITE WOOD LANES CHALLENGE". And Thursday league (when I shot this video) I had my highest series thus far in that league (557). I'm marking 7-10 times a game…and my spare shooting has increased from the 30% range to the 50% range with single-pin spare shooting increasing from the 60% range to the 80-90% range.

There are still "issues" I need to work out. I'm still hitting left a lot and don't seem to be moving left fast enough to adapt. But, with wood lanes turning into synthetic lanes by the end of next month…I'm not worrying about it too much right now.


http://youtu.be/TW2WlDqK0hY

From watching the video, I noticed the following things:
1) Balance isn't great. I'm focusing all my effort on getting that ball out in front of me, leaning over the foul line, and accuracy that balance is hit or miss.
2) I'm not square to the foul line. If I'm gonna emulate Earl Anthony…I need to be more square to the foul line.
3) My head is tilted right…which is fine if I'm doing the DYDS…but I'm not…and I as stated above…if I'm going to emulate Earl Anthony I need that head more straight up and down.
4) The approach is still too fast…still have a weird "hop" in there that I can't seem to get rid of.
5) Timing appears "late". Harder to see in the video…but it "feels" late.

Okay…now it's up to you semi-professionals to critique!!! Thanks!!!

[RobLV1]

Your first step is still HUGE! Your footwork resembles a footrace to see how fast you can get to the line, no matter far behind you the ball is when you get there. On the positive side, your footwork looks a lot better, not nearly so helter skelter in terms of lateral movements, but the pace of your feet is still forcing you to throw the ball instead of rolling it. See if you can find some video of Tony Reyes. His "creeping" style might benefit you for a while until you can slow things down.

I'm looking forward to the opportunity of working with you again. Your constant think about the sport is impressive. Your over-thinking, not so much.

[Aslan]

See if you can find some video of Tony Reyes. His "creeping" style might benefit you for a while until you can slow things down.

I'll take a look at that. I tried to fix that crossover step. Barry Asher mentioned the same thing...wanting to make it more "straight". But when I tried this weekend, the ball was hitting me in the leg because I wasn't "clearing out that leg". So I'm trying to find that "medium" where I get that leg out of the way without walking like a disabled person (non-offensively in meaning) where that front leg sort of swings uncontrollably out to the side.

I feel like I've slowed things down a lot...and shortening my approach has helped...but you're right; seeing the videos it appears I'm still running and hopping through the air to get to that foul line. I'll see if I can't slow it down further.

[Aslan]

One thing I noticed today, watching a little Earl Anthony on the inter web….the importance of keeping your head straight and eyes focused. They showed him in slow motion on an approach and I swear his eyes didn't blink and his head appeared to be gliding along on a rail.

Gonna keep that in mind.

[Aslan]

Well; here is the latest installment of "help Aslan learn to bowl" also known as "Road to Iceman VS Aslan; The Sin City Massacre Part I".

Some of the clips were slowed down and some were left at normal speed.

I LOVE the music that is playing in the background…especially in the final frame as I'm staring down that nemesis 10-pin and the music is crescendoing…just adds even more drama to the situation. Also, in the final shot, notice the guy next to me that comes flying in doing some weird release. AND…in the 4th shot of the video, you get to see me use a rare "back-up ball" to try and go after a 4-6-7 split (unsuccessfully).


http://youtu.be/phE5vhOzrN0

[Bunny]

Walking smoother and more controlled has helped me. To me it looks like on your first step your pushing off with the toes of your right foot. I don't know the solution but it seems to get your stride moving up and bouncy, rather than forward and smooth.

I've seen some pro bowlers rock back a little onto their heel first. Maybe it gets the foot moving in the correct motion from heel to toe rather than leading with the toe.


Just a thought. :)

[vdubtx]

Aside from the bouncy steps, I think you are trying too hard to release the ball. Just let it roll off your hand vs. tugging at it or lifting it. Your release is very late with your steps. Just my $.03

[Aslan]

Cool. Thanks.

I think what I noticed is that in every single clip, I seem to be releasing the ball with what I've heard called a "suitcase release". My thumb seems to be coming out first, but not very much sooner than the fingers. So, I think I still need to work a lot on the release. Or hope to just inhale the "gift"….hopefully sooner rather than later.

I have "tried" to change the release and stay behind and under the ball. All I can say is it hasn't worked very well thus far. I lose a LOT of accuracy if I take my focus away from targeting and instead focus on the wrist/snap to quickly bring the hand around the ball. But, I think I need to keep trying.

I've thought that the "bouncy steps" were more under control than in the past. Perhaps I still need to do a little more. I've been focusing a lot on targeting and accuracy which means I've sort of stopped focusing on the other elements of the approach. And that gets me into trouble sometimes because I lose focus on my timing. I have an intentional late timing…sort of like the old Anthony/Carter timing…but in some of those clips it was too late…and when I noticed that I went back to focusing on my timing and counting in my head…to make sure I wasn't at the line with the ball barely coming into the swing.

But, I'll keep working on it and take those comments into consideration. Anything "good" in the videos? The only thing I see as a positive is I seem to be doing a better job "posting" the shots…and I seem to have transitioned from the "hand to the ceiling" posting to the "hand towards the pins" posting. Not sure how much of a positive that is…but it's something I guess.

[Amyers]

Cool. Thanks.

I think what I noticed is that in every single clip, I seem to be releasing the ball with what I've heard called a "suitcase release". My thumb seems to be coming out first, but not very much sooner than the fingers. So, I think I still need to work a lot on the release. Or hope to just inhale the "gift"….hopefully sooner rather than later.

I have "tried" to change the release and stay behind and under the ball. All I can say is it hasn't worked very well thus far. I lose a LOT of accuracy if I take my focus away from targeting and instead focus on the wrist/snap to quickly bring the hand around the ball. But, I think I need to keep trying.

I've thought that the "bouncy steps" were more under control than in the past. Perhaps I still need to do a little more. I've been focusing a lot on targeting and accuracy which means I've sort of stopped focusing on the other elements of the approach. And that gets me into trouble sometimes because I lose focus on my timing. I have an intentional late timing…sort of like the old Anthony/Carter timing…but in some of those clips it was too late…and when I noticed that I went back to focusing on my timing and counting in my head…to make sure I wasn't at the line with the ball barely coming into the swing.

But, I'll keep working on it and take those comments into consideration. Anything "good" in the videos? The only thing I see as a positive is I seem to be doing a better job "posting" the shots…and I seem to have transitioned from the "hand to the ceiling" posting to the "hand towards the pins" posting. Not sure how much of a positive that is…but it's something I guess.

Aslan first let me say this looks much better than som of you older stuff. Your speed on the approach is better and I think your posting your shots very well.

I think your still a little fast mainly on your last two steps course I've been told that many time too.

On the release the big thing I see you need to have your hand in more the power position. There was an article someone posted a few days ago about this mainly it was about worrying less about cupped/uncupped and more about having the fingers at 7:00 which I thought was complicated but I realized if I kept my index finger pointed at the foul line and my hand behind underneath the ball it worked for me. On the release don't bring you hand up until it gets to your ankle and just let it happen it goes to quick for you to try and do something to the ball

Altogether I think you looked pretty good keep working the rest will come.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Amyers has a good point there with the fingers. The thing i think about is on your push away you should have a line between the inside of your elbow through your ring finger towards your target. That will put your arm/hand in the correct position. Then on the back swing to hold that position there is a saying pros work the inside of the ball and amateurs work the outside of the ball. That is something to look for in some videos but really keeps your hand in the right position until coming towards the bottom. Keep working on it man.

[Hampe]

Definitely don't let the drop in accuracy discourage you from changing your release. Getting your hand more behind the ball is going to raise the ceiling of your game. Your accuracy will be crap at first, sure, but your potential will be much higher. You've got hundreds of hours of practice with your current release, and only a few hours practice with your hand behind the ball.....of course the accuracy will be a lot worse! But now is the time you should be working on it, in the summer, when scores don't matter as much. I would recommend working on the release with a coach though.....its a very important part of your game, and the fewer bad habits you start with, the easier it will be later on.

The footwork is still not great, but it's much improved from before! You're actually starting to look like an actual bowler ;D

[Aslan]

DeThe footwork is still not great, but it's much improved from before! You're actually starting to look like an actual bowler ;D

Well, I won't go THAT far. Yeah, footwork is a problem because unless I concentrate on it...it's natural. It's actually easier to control things like release because I'm already concentrating on it. But things like balance arm, keeping slide leg down, and footwork...those are pretty much natural. I have concentrated enough on it to slow the steps down considerably. I noticed my "hop" is still there...but at least both feet are on the ground now! I'm going to continue to try to slow it down further and work on keeping my hand behind the ball...I think those are the 2 biggest areas where I can improve.

I probably won't see a coach for a little bit because I don't want to switch coaches again. Rob's instruction seems to be working...so I think I'll stay away from getting advice from others until I can go see Rob again. But since my current league is stupid and sweeps in Laughlin instead of Vegas...it means I probably won't be out his way till my next league sweeps next winter/spring. If I can make it out to Vegas sooner, then I'll definitely make that second lesson part of the trip. And I "might" be out there in September because I am 6th man on my old Friday league team...and they sweep in Vegas in September...just not sure if they'll need me or how it works for subs/6th men.

I still might do the occasional clinic...because it's cheap and I get to get input from PBA and USBC hall of famers. And I've been flirting with the idea of getting a lesson from Missy Parkin...she seemed nice (and cute) when I met her at the youth coaching thingy. But like I said...the LAST thing I want is to start over from scratch. Rob has me on a track that is working...and the fundamentals are getting better (spare shooting, repeatability, footwork)...I just need to be patient and wait for the strike rate to come around. I'm not the only one struggling since they replaced the wood lanes. My former coach and I were talking Thursday and he said he's been having trouble striking and his average is down in the 190s (formerlly in the 200-220s). That was encouraging that its not "just me". And hopefully, end of this month, I'll add a couple more pieces to my arsenal...that might help me find a better angle or something. Hopefully before sweeps in September.

[rv driver]

I second VDub. Your timing looks late, and I think that's what's causing the loft. Also (don't know if this is significant), I notice that your first step seems large and fast, and then your second seems more like a shuffle step. It could be the camera angle; it could be that that's what works for you, but normally I think the first step is smaller and slower than the subsequent steps.
Overall, your form looks pretty good, I think. The pins should cower...

[Bunny]

Well, I won't go THAT far. Yeah, footwork is a problem because unless I concentrate on it...it's natural. It's actually easier to control things like release because I'm already concentrating on it. But things like balance arm, keeping slide leg down, and footwork...those are pretty much natural. I have concentrated enough on it to slow the steps down considerably. I noticed my "hop" is still there...but at least both feet are on the ground now! I'm going to continue to try to slow it down further and work on keeping my hand behind the ball...I think those are the 2 biggest areas where I can improve.

I probably won't see a coach for a little bit because I don't want to switch coaches again. Rob's instruction seems to be working...so I think I'll stay away from getting advice from others until I can go see Rob again. But since my current league is stupid and sweeps in Laughlin instead of Vegas...it means I probably won't be out his way till my next league sweeps next winter/spring. If I can make it out to Vegas sooner, then I'll definitely make that second lesson part of the trip. And I "might" be out there in September because I am 6th man on my old Friday league team...and they sweep in Vegas in September...just not sure if they'll need me or how it works for subs/6th men.

I still might do the occasional clinic...because it's cheap and I get to get input from PBA and USBC hall of famers. And I've been flirting with the idea of getting a lesson from Missy Parkin...she seemed nice (and cute) when I met her at the youth coaching thingy. But like I said...the LAST thing I want is to start over from scratch. Rob has me on a track that is working...and the fundamentals are getting better (spare shooting, repeatability, footwork)...I just need to be patient and wait for the strike rate to come around. I'm not the only one struggling since they replaced the wood lanes. My former coach and I were talking Thursday and he said he's been having trouble striking and his average is down in the 190s (formerlly in the 200-220s). That was encouraging that its not "just me". And hopefully, end of this month, I'll add a couple more pieces to my arsenal...that might help me find a better angle or something. Hopefully before sweeps in September.



Rob did a great job with your game. You've really improved! You get credit as well for putting in all the practice hours. Rob should definitely be your first choice!!

(I was next to Missy as she gave an hour lesson. Meh, not impressed and a little pricey for what you get.)

I think your next best option is Mark's 1/2 hour lesson every other Wed at Fountain Bowl for $20 bucks. Just call and schedule with the front desk. I think he can see what Rob has done and tighten it back up. He doesn't try to change what you're already doing so much as seeing your best strike shot and making that more consistent.


My scores and strike percentage have really improved since my 1/2 hour with him last month! Best $20 I've spent!!!!!!!

[Aslan]

Rob did a great job with your game. You've really improved! You get credit as well for putting in all the practice hours. Rob should definitely be your first choice!!

(I was next to Missy as she gave an hour lesson. Meh, not impressed and a little pricey for what you get.)

I think your next best option is Mark's 1/2 hour lesson every other Wed at Fountain Bowl for $20 bucks. Just call and schedule with the front desk. I think he can see what Rob has done and tighten it back up. He doesn't try to change what you're already doing so much as seeing your best strike shot and making that more consistent.


My scores and strike percentage have really improved since my 1/2 hour with him last month! Best $20 I've spent!!!!!!!

Yeah, I know you're not a big "Missy fan". And, also, she IS married. If she were single, then, it'd be a no-brainer.

We're lucky though, here in California. A LOT of qualified coaches compared to other areas of the country.

Mark is certainly on my list as well. His teaching skills are well-renowned. I'd love to do Camp Bakkes...just way too pricey for my budget right now. But down the road, I might do the lesson like you got for your husband. I'm just trying to change my strategy a "bit" after working with Rob. My old strategy was to be like a sponge and just soak in all the advice I could get from anyone halfway qualified. But after working with Rob, I realized that not only might that have a "negative side", it's also sort of a negative because of the way I am/think/etc... For example;

- Coach 1...high loft speed (wood lanes)...then I try to incorporate Barry's sort of old school "square to the foul line" approach...then I'm trying to incorporate Joe Slowinski's DYDS elements....I mean, at the end of the day I felt like Frankenstein. Sure, I had all these elements all sewn into my game...but they were competing with each other.

- And as to my "personality"...the more I soaked in...the more I was "in my head". So instead of just getting in a good stance, visualizing the shot, and just throwing the dang ball....I was SO much into my head that I on occasion will:
1) Throw the wrong ball.
2) Start out on the wrong foot.
3) Forget to move laterally for a spare leave.
4) Throw a back-up ball accidentally (my wrist went up the inside instead of the outside).

Everyone has little brain farts on occasion...as I did yesterday when I threw the wrong ball in the VBT. But when you're trying to concentrate on 8-9 things while also taking the proper steps and having timing and release...it's like being all tied up in a fishing net and trying to dance like a ballerina.

So when I met Rob and had my lesson...he kinda stripped it down to the bare bones...and then gave me about 7 things to work on, over time. And he commented, that he normally wouldn't even give me that many, especially knowing how I get into my own head, but since he probably wouldn't work with me again for at least 6 months...it was okay.

So I still on occasion go to the clinic at Fountain Bowl....I mean, it's a bargain and just really cool to be in the presence of those guys...but I'm careful not to "re-invent" my game or start "sewing things together".

Thats what made yesterday's practice (I practiced 9 games after the VBT, in Concourse) so frustrating. Suddenly, trying to get more behind the ball...I was back to "firing" it at probably 18-20mph. And I didn't want to just automatically give up...because some changes take some time to get used to...and I don't want to be impatient. But on the other hand, I was thinking, "would Rob want me to revert back to this higher speed?"

Kidding aside...Iceman's "gift theory" sounds AWESOME! If I had some magical "gift"...where I don't need any help or coaching or ball reps or ball changes...I just have some natural ability to strike with minimal effort...that would be awesome!! But I don't. I need the help and instruction.

But, thanks. I agree that my game is better than it was when we bowled together in that first league at Carter. I should hope so, given the thousands of dollars and 600-700 games of practice I've spent in the 10 months since. And you weren't doing half bad yourself!! That Hammer Deadly Aim was crushing the pins for ya..and your shot was even more consistent than it used to be.

[Amyers]

You really can get too much coaching especially if they are competing styles. Everyone has a way to bowl that is comfortable to them and the trick is to realize which elements of your game work over the long hall and which ones don't. If anyone ever figures out a way to do this move elements of your game and which other styles they match up with best it would be a boon to all of us. Unfortunately a lot of coaches get it in their head that your better off reinventing the wheel and doing it their way. Not all of them are that way but some are.

All you have to do is watch a PBA telecast and you can see their are a lot of different ways to get to the top. Most of us will never bowl like any of those guys but some things they do can translate into our games. the trick is changing what needs to change and leaving the rest alone. I know easier said than done.

[Bunny]

Yeah, I know you're not a big "Missy fan". And, also, she IS married. If she were single, then, it'd be a no-brainer.

We're lucky though, here in California. A LOT of qualified coaches compared to other areas of the country.

Mark is certainly on my list as well. His teaching skills are well-renowned. I'd love to do Camp Bakkes...just way too pricey for my budget right now. But down the road, I might do the lesson like you got for your husband. I'm just trying to change my strategy a "bit" after working with Rob. My old strategy was to be like a sponge and just soak in all the advice I could get from anyone halfway qualified. But after working with Rob, I realized that not only might that have a "negative side", it's also sort of a negative because of the way I am/think/etc... For example;

- Coach 1...high loft speed (wood lanes)...then I try to incorporate Barry's sort of old school "square to the foul line" approach...then I'm trying to incorporate Joe Slowinski's DYDS elements....I mean, at the end of the day I felt like Frankenstein. Sure, I had all these elements all sewn into my game...but they were competing with each other.

- And as to my "personality"...the more I soaked in...the more I was "in my head". So instead of just getting in a good stance, visualizing the shot, and just throwing the dang ball....I was SO much into my head that I on occasion will:
1) Throw the wrong ball.
2) Start out on the wrong foot.
3) Forget to move laterally for a spare leave.
4) Throw a back-up ball accidentally (my wrist went up the inside instead of the outside).

Everyone has little brain farts on occasion...as I did yesterday when I threw the wrong ball in the VBT. But when you're trying to concentrate on 8-9 things while also taking the proper steps and having timing and release...it's like being all tied up in a fishing net and trying to dance like a ballerina.

So when I met Rob and had my lesson...he kinda stripped it down to the bare bones...and then gave me about 7 things to work on, over time. And he commented, that he normally wouldn't even give me that many, especially knowing how I get into my own head, but since he probably wouldn't work with me again for at least 6 months...it was okay.

So I still on occasion go to the clinic at Fountain Bowl....I mean, it's a bargain and just really cool to be in the presence of those guys...but I'm careful not to "re-invent" my game or start "sewing things together".

Thats what made yesterday's practice (I practiced 9 games after the VBT, in Concourse) so frustrating. Suddenly, trying to get more behind the ball...I was back to "firing" it at probably 18-20mph. And I didn't want to just automatically give up...because some changes take some time to get used to...and I don't want to be impatient. But on the other hand, I was thinking, "would Rob want me to revert back to this higher speed?"

Kidding aside...Iceman's "gift theory" sounds AWESOME! If I had some magical "gift"...where I don't need any help or coaching or ball reps or ball changes...I just have some natural ability to strike with minimal effort...that would be awesome!! But I don't. I need the help and instruction.

But, thanks. I agree that my game is better than it was when we bowled together in that first league at Carter. I should hope so, given the thousands of dollars and 600-700 games of practice I've spent in the 10 months since. And you weren't doing half bad yourself!! That Hammer Deadly Aim was crushing the pins for ya..and your shot was even more consistent than it used to be.



Thanks. Those were super messy conditions yesterday at Forest and tough to figure out.

Camp Bakes would be friggen awesome! We figured $1500 per person with gas, lodging, dinners and incidentals. I'd love to send my husband for his birthday in October, but it's just too much money.

The Saturday clinic is okay. I've been a few times. But, the $20 1/2 hour with Mark is an amazing deal. An hour is almost too much to absorb at one time. I really don't think Mark is going to change what Rob has done. That's not what he does. He'll just tighten it up.

Oh, and forget everything that guy at Concourse told you. I've met him a couple of times. He tried to give me some tips. He's nice enough but his bowling advice sucks. He tries to make every bowler fit his mold. There's no comparison in any way shape or form to Mark or Rob.

Do a 1/2 hour lesson with Mark for 20 measly bucks!! I guarantee you will see improvement!!!


Shhhh. The Deadly Aim is my secret weapon. Hubby got it for me for our anniversary. Turns out the 22nd year anniversary is Carbon-Fiber. ;) Or leather. He got a pair of SST 8s!

[rv driver]

Yeah, I know you're not a big "Missy fan". And, also, she IS married. If she were single, then, it'd be a no-brainer.

We're lucky though, here in California. A LOT of qualified coaches compared to other areas of the country.

Mark is certainly on my list as well. His teaching skills are well-renowned. I'd love to do Camp Bakkes...just way too pricey for my budget right now. But down the road, I might do the lesson like you got for your husband. I'm just trying to change my strategy a "bit" after working with Rob. My old strategy was to be like a sponge and just soak in all the advice I could get from anyone halfway qualified. But after working with Rob, I realized that not only might that have a "negative side", it's also sort of a negative because of the way I am/think/etc... For example;

- Coach 1...high loft speed (wood lanes)...then I try to incorporate Barry's sort of old school "square to the foul line" approach...then I'm trying to incorporate Joe Slowinski's DYDS elements....I mean, at the end of the day I felt like Frankenstein. Sure, I had all these elements all sewn into my game...but they were competing with each other.

- And as to my "personality"...the more I soaked in...the more I was "in my head". So instead of just getting in a good stance, visualizing the shot, and just throwing the dang ball....I was SO much into my head that I on occasion will:
1) Throw the wrong ball.
2) Start out on the wrong foot.
3) Forget to move laterally for a spare leave.
4) Throw a back-up ball accidentally (my wrist went up the inside instead of the outside).

Everyone has little brain farts on occasion...as I did yesterday when I threw the wrong ball in the VBT. But when you're trying to concentrate on 8-9 things while also taking the proper steps and having timing and release...it's like being all tied up in a fishing net and trying to dance like a ballerina.

So when I met Rob and had my lesson...he kinda stripped it down to the bare bones...and then gave me about 7 things to work on, over time. And he commented, that he normally wouldn't even give me that many, especially knowing how I get into my own head, but since he probably wouldn't work with me again for at least 6 months...it was okay.

So I still on occasion go to the clinic at Fountain Bowl....I mean, it's a bargain and just really cool to be in the presence of those guys...but I'm careful not to "re-invent" my game or start "sewing things together".

Thats what made yesterday's practice (I practiced 9 games after the VBT, in Concourse) so frustrating. Suddenly, trying to get more behind the ball...I was back to "firing" it at probably 18-20mph. And I didn't want to just automatically give up...because some changes take some time to get used to...and I don't want to be impatient. But on the other hand, I was thinking, "would Rob want me to revert back to this higher speed?"

Kidding aside...Iceman's "gift theory" sounds AWESOME! If I had some magical "gift"...where I don't need any help or coaching or ball reps or ball changes...I just have some natural ability to strike with minimal effort...that would be awesome!! But I don't. I need the help and instruction.

But, thanks. I agree that my game is better than it was when we bowled together in that first league at Carter. I should hope so, given the thousands of dollars and 600-700 games of practice I've spent in the 10 months since. And you weren't doing half bad yourself!! That Hammer Deadly Aim was crushing the pins for ya..and your shot was even more consistent than it used to be.
Maybe you just need to switch cologne?

Seriously! You know how Ferarri and Jaguar have colognes? I think Storm needs a line of cologne that smells like their bowling balls. That should up your game!

On a real serious note, I think perhaps that different coaches visualize and teach the same techniques in different ways, using different terminology. I also suspect that there are many different legitimate approaches to the game, and different coaches teach different approaches. That doesn't mean that you cobble together all the approaches into some kind of -- as you say -- Frankenstein's monster. It means that you find an approach that works for you, and you develop it. I know that's the way it is when approaching learning and mastering musical instruments. Don't try to take the best of several coaches; simply find a coach with whom you mesh and let that person coach you! You've identified the problem: You're in your own head too much. Get out of it and throw the ball.

[Aslan]

Oh, and forget everything that guy at Concourse told you. I've met him a couple of times. He tried to give me some tips. He's nice enough but his bowling advice sucks. He tries to make every bowler fit his mold. There's no comparison in any way shape or form to Mark or Rob.

Do a 1/2 hour lesson with Mark for 20 measly bucks!! I guarantee you will see improvement!!!


Yeah, he's a really nice guy…but he seems like his mold is better suited for drier conditions and wood lanes. And he's not one for changing or re-inventing his game to compensate.

I might do the lesson with Mark one of these days…like Rob, he's a "teacher's teacher"…not just a high average bowler that "also teaches".

My only concern with Mark is…I like to explain where I started, what I've done thus far, where I'm struggling. In my few interactions with him at the clinics, which were limited, he seems like he might not want to "listen". Like I said in my other post, sometimes guys like Mark…former PBA stars…it's kind of intimidating dealing with them.

But, we'll see. It's also kinda silly to "not" take advantage of a lesson with the great Mark Baker when he's so close. A lot of bowlers don't have the opportunity.

[rv driver]

Yeah, he's a really nice guy…but he seems like his mold is better suited for drier conditions and wood lanes. And he's not one for changing or re-inventing his game to compensate.

I might do the lesson with Mark one of these days…like Rob, he's a "teacher's teacher"…not just a high average bowler that "also teaches".

My only concern with Mark is…I like to explain where I started, what I've done thus far, where I'm struggling. In my few interactions with him at the clinics, which were limited, he seems like he might not want to "listen". Like I said in my other post, sometimes guys like Mark…former PBA stars…it's kind of intimidating dealing with them.

But, we'll see. It's also kinda silly to "not" take advantage of a lesson with the great Mark Baker when he's so close. A lot of bowlers don't have the opportunity.
I don't know Mark -- he might be a really great guy -- but I have dealt with celebrities before. They're human beings -- they put on their pants one leg at a time like the rest of us. sometimes, they can be real a-holes, though, and that poor attitude can totally eclipse the "shine" of the star. If Mark's such an Unfortunate, it might not be worth your time and $$$, just because he's a "star." There are, musically, a few "stars" I'd refuse to work with, just because they're such jerks. HOWEVER, if he's a great guy, you'd be foolish not to hook up.

[Bunny]

I might do the lesson with Mark one of these days…like Rob, he's a "teacher's teacher"…not just a high average bowler that "also teaches".

My only concern with Mark is…I like to explain where I started, what I've done thus far, where I'm struggling. In my few interactions with him at the clinics, which were limited, he seems like he might not want to "listen". Like I said in my other post, sometimes guys like Mark…former PBA stars…it's kind of intimidating dealing with them.

That was during a $10 clinic with a butt load of other people to help so it's understandable. The private lessons are different. I don't get that celebrity thing with Mark. :confused:



But, we'll see. It's also kinda silly to "not" take advantage of a lesson with the great Mark Baker when he's so close. A lot of bowlers don't have the opportunity.

That's my thinking but if Mark doesn't click with you as a coach that's cool. I've had a few music teachers and tennis coaches that when they said something it made total sense. Others not so much.

Again, I think Rob has definitely got you going in the right direction. Keep up the good work!!