Thumbless or not?

[sprocket]

Well, since a was facing turning 50 and figured I couldn't do it forever I decided to quit bowling thumbless. I have been practicing a couple of times a week, about 15 games total per week, for the last three weeks.

Sometimes it goes well and sometimes I can't break 150. I have been fighting to "free" my armswing and bowl relaxed. It has been a battle to get this right at the bottom and release the ball with any kind of consistency. I have managed to get my backswing higher and straighter. I used to have trouble with it getting behind my back. Last night I really struggled. I kept adjusting tape in the thumb hole and was starting to develop a blister, I think just from overuse. I also thought the lanes were fried and very difficult to score on.

Finally in the 12th game which was going to be my last, I threw the ball without my thumb just for the heck of it. It was NIGHT AND DAY better than when I was throwing thumbless a few weeks ago. Somehow my practice with my thumb in greatly improved my armswing and position at the bottom with my thumb OUT. My ball speed was at least 1mph faster and the rev rate might have been up 100RPM. The ball was a blur. I was releasing the ball from the inside out and I felt great projection to the right.

Also, the lanes suddenly got a lot easier. I felt more relaxed and it was physically much easier.

So NOW WHAT????

[vdubtx]

Hey, it's whatever works and is comfortable for you. If thumbless is good for you, so be it. :cool:

[Perrin]

agreed. Bowling is thankfully one of those sports that allows for multiple styles to all get the same results.

as far as I am concerned as long as the shot is comfortable for you, doesn't break any rule, and doesn't damage the alley/lane then go for it :)

On the other hand if you are leaving dents in the lane or putting three layers of easy slide on your shoe before each shot..... that's a different story

[Mudpuppy]

I have never tried to bowl thumbless - is it harder? Take more strength? Is that why you are switching?

[Aslan]

I vote "not".

[Terrier]

I really think you've got to put more time into the thumb-in practice before giving up on it. I threw house balls thumbless but stopped when I started buying my own gear, so I have been through that change before. When something like your grip is modified in a big way, it takes time to readjust your technique. Three weeks (or 50 games) seems pretty early to make that judgment call now.

That said, how much time it takes would really depend on how much difference your form changed from thumb-in to thumbless. There are different ways of bowling thumbless, and some are more similar to a thumb-in method than others. Were you bending the elbow and cradling the ball on your backswing a lot? Did you pin the ball against your forearm like Tom Daugherty? Were you basically throwing it two-handed? If your technique changes a lot from thumbless to thumb-in, three months might not be enough let alone three weeks.

[Hampe]

Yea....pretty much what Terrier says. If that's the way you've been playing your whole life, of course it's going to feel way better if you switch back after just a few weeks. Making a big change in your approach or release will take months to get comfortable with (depending on how often you practice it could even take a year). Excluding beginners, making huge changes to your game will always feel like a step back at first....even if it will improve your game in the long run.

[sprocket]

Thanks for all the replies and advice!
When I was young and bowled thumb in quite often people thought I wasn't using my thumb. I didn't half thumb it or anything, I just had a very short backswing and cupped the ball a lot and used my legs to generate speed. Over the years my wrist and forearm started feeling the wear and tear. To compensate I started developing the bad habit of my swing going behind my back. I didn't know I was doing it and I think it happened because that puts the ball closer to body center so it feels lighter.

Correcting this flaw was not going to be easy. I couldn't just go back to my old swing, I needed to completely overhaul my game. I tried and took a few lessons but probably didn't give it long enough. When I tried thumbless I found it to be physically easier than my old swing. I mean A LOT easier. There wasn't really anything to learn because it matched my old style anyway. I ended up bowling that way for about ten years. Now some bad habits have started to creep in bowling thumbless. My backswing has become pretty much non-existent and I was muscling the ball at the bottom way too much.

But here's the thing: Like I said before, somehow by bowling thumb in my swing has improved with my thumb out. I'm not just imagining it. It's not the same as before, it's BETTER.

I'll tell you what, thumb in or out my swing is not all that impressive to watch but I will post videos of both after I practice on Sunday morning.

[Aslan]

I don't know....on nights when I'm struggling I consider switching to thumbless or even 2-handed....figuring, "well...I can't do any WORSE!!"

But cooler heads prevail and I realize that you don't become a better bowler by switching to some "gimicky" style. You become a better bowler by simply improving on your mechanics and fixing your flaws/deficiencies. Same thing with "ARSEnals"...sure, lane conditions and equipment play a significant part in bowling. But if you're throwing the ball all over the lane and missing your targets...switching to ball #4 or ball #6 or buying a new ball isn't really gonna solve the problem. My opinion(s).

[e-tank]

I don't know....on nights when I'm struggling I consider switching to thumbless or even 2-handed....figuring, "well...I can't do any WORSE!!"

But cooler heads prevail and I realize that you don't become a better bowler by switching to some "gimicky" style. You become a better bowler by simply improving on your mechanics and fixing your flaws/deficiencies. Same thing with "ARSEnals"...sure, lane conditions and equipment play a significant part in bowling. But if you're throwing the ball all over the lane and missing your targets...switching to ball #4 or ball #6 or buying a new ball isn't really gonna solve the problem. My opinion(s).

jw how is thumbless or two handed gimicky?

[Aslan]

jw how is thumbless or two handed gimicky?

I guess I consider it "gimicky" (for lack of a better word) because if you go to open bowling or cosmic bowling...you'll see a lot of young bowlers just whipping the ball down there using one of these methods. It's more about trying to get the ball to have excessively high rev rates and a lot of lateral movement than it is about "bowling". And for the most part, these bowlers never develop into league bowlers or good, solid bowlers.

Because while those styles are fun to watch and "can" generate high scores...those styles are much more difficult to execute consistently and much harder to pick up the variety of spares one will encounter.

Even at the PBA level...mostly strokers early on, mostly crankers nowadays. But thumbless?? 2-handed? Rather rare. If you're hooking the ball 20 boards...and you leave a 10 or a 6-10...then what? You can't move over left enough to hit those pins...which means either you have to learn to bowl left AND right handed...or you have to learn to bowl a straight ball for spares. It just adds variance that might not be necessary....if it's just a matter of learning to bowl better in a more traditional way.

"Can" you score highly? Absolutely! I bowl with a thumbless bowler on my Thursday league team...every 2-3 weeks that dude will rock a 210-240 game...like he did last night!! But his scores are going to have a higher standard deviation and some nights he really struggles with picking up spares. I also have a thumbless bowler on my Friday sanctioned league team...a lefty. And same thing...some games...that dude rocks a 170-190 and is striking good. Other games...110-115. The only difference is he's a better spare shooter and doesn't leave quite as many splits...but the Thursday thumbless bowler has a higher potential score on any given night.

Now I can't "preach"...not on Thursdays anyways...because I sometimes really struggle myself...REALLY struggle on those lanes. But on Fridays, I'm the best bowler on my team and the most consistent. 155-225...usually 165-185.

In my opinion, and thats all this is, the reason we have these varying styles is that bowling at the end of the day is a really, really simple game. Just hit the headpin. 2/3 of the time...you hit the headpin...they all fall down. If they don't...just roll the big, heavy ball towards the 1-3 pins that stayed standing. Simple. You can roll it between your legs...one-handed, 2-handed...maybe invent some 2-hand push like a basketball pass...you can even throw it overhand if you want...or super high loft it like a shot put. As long as you can consistently hit the headpin...nobody will care. The alley might if you start damaging the lanes...IDK. But at the end of the day...there's a traditional, established way to bowl...similar over the last 50-60 years...well-researched...and it is my FAR the pre-dominant style...and "probably" is for a reason.

[Aslan]

...there's a traditional, established way to bowl...similar over the last 50-60 years...well-researched...and it is my FAR the pre-dominant style...and "probably" is for a reason.

I'll give you an example from my embarassing experience:

So, I was having trouble setting the ball down early versus lofting it 15-20ft. So I decided..."maybe I'm just "special" and instead of aiming at dots or boards or arrows...I should just throw it at the head pin or the break point. Now realize, pretty much every pro or bowling instructor will tell you NOT to do aim at the pins. It's like Bowling Rule #1. But, I decided, "different strokes for different folks". First time I tried it...STRIKE!

But as I kept trying it...no success at all. So then I aimed for the area with the shaded boards about 3/4 down the lane. Again, at first, STRIKE! But, over time...not so good.

And finally...I got back to aiming at the dots and arrows. Moral of the story? Sometimes a person will have a rare affinity for doing something that kinda flies in the face of convention...and it'll work for them. But most of the time...if you stray from the established fundamentals...you won't be as successful, not over the long haul.

[vdubtx]

Aslan,
This is what I picture when you talk about lofting so far...

http://cdn.picsauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/v7d1p4p.gif

[sprocket]

Just a quick bowling history lesson: Not using a thumb hole far predates using a thumb hole or finger holes for that matter. In the beginning darkness was across the face of the deep and there were no gripping holes in a bowling ball. Then there was one finger hole and a thumb hole and then a second finger hole was added. After adding the second finger hole there were still many "old school" bowlers who just used two holes. There was a least one bowler who didn't use ANY of the holes. That bowler was Count Gengler and he was perhaps the greatest action bowler of all time. He palmed the ball and it has been suggested that the position in which he placed the holes, which he was not using, caused the ball to have significant positive side weight, something uncommon at the time except for those illegally inserting lead into the positive side of the ball. The Count was in his prime about 100 years ago.

Thumbless bowling is really nothing new either. It can be argued that it is a more "pure" way to bowl and that those who choose to use a thumb hole do so because they are unable to bowl well without it.

About those crazy no-thumb house bowlers: All the same arguments can be made for the ones using a thumb hole. They use the thumb hole so they can throw the ball REALLY hard because they love to see the ball really crash into the pins. Very few have any success with that method though and most just throw the ball all over the place.

I wish there was a video that showed dozens of balls traveling down the lane, all thrown by different bowlers, all with different speed and rotation but you NEVER got to actually see HOW each ball was thrown. The only thing you would see is what really matters and that is HOW THE BALL GOES DOWN THE LANE.

[Aslan]

Then there was one finger hole and a thumb hole and then a second finger hole was added.

I have solid, massive respect for anyone that goes to a 1-finger, 1-thumb true old skool bowling style. But thumbless…not so much.


what really matters and that is HOW THE BALL GOES DOWN THE LANE.

Oh…well in that case…overhand bowling should be fully accepted as should 2-hand between the legs and the eyes closed method. Because…it doesn't matter "how" we do it. Sorta like steroids in baseball or blood doping in bicycling. I mean, we all like feel good Lance Armstrong cancer surviving stories…and who doesn't like to see Home Runs!?? It doesn't matter "how" they're doing it…it just matters that it's entertaining.

Which, on a side note…I have "ALWAYS" said golf would be more entertaining if the greens were more like miniature golf with cool obstacles and stuff…and if the sport on the fairways was full contact.

[sprocket]

Aslan, What if I you just saw the video I was imagining and then after seeing all the balls traveling down the lane, each one effective in its own way, and then you got to watch ANOTHER video that let you see the bowlers...and one guy was in a wheelchair. And one guy was blind. And one leaned on a cane. And one didn't use the thumb hole because he had no thumb. And one had virtually no swing at all (I have seen video of this). And one had five gripping holes. And one was an Asian woman with a helicopter release. And one was a 10 year old two hander...

You really need to get out of your head that there is a "right" or "acceptable" way to bowl. Except overhand. That is always bad because there is no way to get good roll on the ball or not damage the lane. Same with lofting 30 feet.

It's actually quite freeing to not have prejudice against any effective bowling style. You can simply embrace all the possibilities and enjoy the uniqueness of each method. Then you will see bowling as art in motion and not just a sport.

[Aslan]

At the beginning of that post I was confused…there were lots of people doing lots of things and it was very confusing…

Then at the end…it seemed like what I imagine a Woodstock after party would be like…with rainbows and unicorns and every passing the peace pipe…just a very accepting way…no bad, no good, no nothin…just peace and love man…peace and love. Lots of Volkswagon vans.

Although….I do agree with you when it comes to the Wizard of Oz. You're telling me, the ONLY road to the Emerald City is the Yellow Brick Road?? There's no trails through the forest…no service entrance? How'd they get the heavy equipment in to build emerald towers? There's no way you can operate industrial machinery on a brick road without tearing the **** out of it? Am I wrong? So yeah…there must be another road…not just ONE road. :confused:

[sprocket]

There are many roads to the Emerald City. It's pretty much a metropolis surrounding it. There is, however, just one road from the Emerald City to Munchkin Land and that is the yellow brick road. It was built FROM the Emerald City to Munchkin Land, not vise-versa and it did not require heavy equipment because it is a brick road and not a paved road. There is also a yellow brick roads that comes from somewhere else and leads to Munchkin Land. Coming from Munchkin Land this materializes as a "Y" in the road. In the movie Dorothy met the Scarecrow there.

There are many roads man, many roads....

[Aslan]

I think sprocket should win the bowling ball giveaway this week for his massive Wizard of Oz knowledge!!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4516657/ali-g-respect-o.gif (http://gifsoup.com/view/4516657/ali-g-respect.html)

[dnhoffman]

I've seem a lot of people bowl thumbless and put up some high numbers. I have not, however, seen anyone average over 200 in a full 18 (much less 36) weeks.

[Hampe]

I've seem a lot of people bowl thumbless and put up some high numbers. I have not, however, seen anyone average over 200 in a full 18 (much less 36) weeks.
Same here. Don't think I've even seen one win a big tournament either....

[Aslan]

Same here. Don't think I've even seen one win a big tournament either....

Yeah. It's funny how you hear about how prevalent thumbless and 2-handed bowling is becoming...yet you watch an amateur/semi-pro tourney and you could count on one hand how many thumbless/2-handed bowlers are out there.

I think what most people who make that switch don't understand is...it may be easier to bowl that way...and you may find some success...BUT...to bowl that way and be consistently at a high level...and make the necessary adjustments...and deal with the spare leaves....it's not as easy as many people think. Sometimes there are reasons people do something a certain way for 100 years...its not being stubborn or stuck in their ways or old fashioned...it's just that it works, consistently, and has forever. Every different way there is to throw a bowling ball has been tried...yet 97% of bowlers still throw it the same way (1-handed, thumb in).

[DrOcktagon]

I've seem a lot of people bowl thumbless and put up some high numbers. I have not, however, seen anyone average over 200 in a full 18 (much less 36) weeks.

My bowling alley's house record for high average is 252, set by a thumbless bowler over a 36-week league.

[sprocket]

Well last night on league was not a good test. I stuck badly in warmups and wrenched my knee a little. There was something on the approach and the guy had to come and remove it. I also am having some lower right quadrant pain and if it doesn't get better today I am going in because it could be my appendix. First game I had 192 and I had to strike on the last four shots for that. It became increasingly hard to keep my speed up so I started moving left to adjust. The second game I had a split to start then was clean until the sixth frame. I moved left and still went high for a split and then did the same thing the next three frames moving left and still leaving splits every time. I usually play between the 1st and 2nd arrow because this is a long pattern at 45ft. In the 3rd game I was in to the third arrow. I went strike, 4 pin, strike, 4 pin, strike, 4 pin, strike, strike, 4 pin, solid 8, strike. In the tenth I was at about 17 at the arrows.

One thing I will say is I think I have found a much better shot around third arrow with less speed. I'm looking forward to trying something close to that next week.

[J Anderson]

I usually play between the 1st and 2nd arrow because this is a long pattern at 45ft.

The longer the pattern, the less room your ball has to hook. Some one has come up with the "rule of 31" which is a quick way of figuring out how to play a pattern based on the length. If you subtract 31 from the length of the pattern in feet you will get the number of the board that your ball should be on as it exits the oil. For this pattern the board number is 14. Unless you are a stroker who throws directly down the lane 14 is not your target. Most likely your target will be a bit inside the third arrow and your break point will be slightly out side of 14.

Given the variables between a bowler's speed, axis rotation, rev rate, etc. and the factors in the lane condition other than pattern length, this is just a rough guide to figure out where to start trying to find your line.

[Fabricate]

Ide stay thumbless If thats what you love stay doing it! I had my old track stomp ball filled the other day for 2-handing. I only have the finger holes slightly beveld so I can burn out some revs.

[sprocket]

For some reason I can never reply with quote because it just stays busy.

Anyway John, I agree with you to a certain degree. Anytime there are dry boards outside, and there are here, the length of the pattern is variable depending on when you get to the dry boards. The advantage of the overall length though, is that it does lend itself to be attacked from multiple angles. The usual problem in this house is that the volume of oil in the center requires a decrease in speed to play it unless you have an awful lot of hand and can swing it all the way to the dry from there. You can also use more surface but then you risk the ball hooking early particularly later in the shift.

There are guys successfully playing this house basically like a Cheetah pattern by catching the dry early and basically turning it into a short oil shot. On the other hand, I also saw a guy shoot 300 last year on my league using a pearl IQ Tour from around 3rd arrow with lower speed and a high track with heavy roll. he then was playing it like a true 45ft pattern.

[Aslan]

My bowling alley's house record for high average is 252, set by a thumbless bowler over a 36-week league.

Always an exception. I don't see many good thumbless or 2-handed bowlers win tournaments...BUT...that Wesley Low kid out here in Cali...talk about an exception...that kid is Jason Belmonte good.

[Bunny]

For some reason I can never reply with quote because it just stays busy.

Try right clicking on "reply with quote" then "open." :)

[J Anderson]

For some reason I can never reply with quote because it just stays busy.

Anyway John, I agree with you to a certain degree. Anytime there are dry boards outside, and there are here, the length of the pattern is variable depending on when you get to the dry boards. The advantage of the overall length though, is that it does lend itself to be attacked from multiple angles. The usual problem in this house is that the volume of oil in the center requires a decrease in speed to play it unless you have an awful lot of hand and can swing it all the way to the dry from there. You can also use more surface but then you risk the ball hooking early particularly later in the shift.

There are guys successfully playing this house basically like a Cheetah pattern by catching the dry early and basically turning it into a short oil shot. On the other hand, I also saw a guy shoot 300 last year on my league using a pearl IQ Tour from around 3rd arrow with lower speed and a high track with heavy roll. he then was playing it like a true 45ft pattern.

Once a thread gets to the second page I have to double click to get the reply with quote button to work.

One of the complaints in our sport league last year was that most of the patterns seemed to be playing with a break point right next to the gutter no matter how long or short the pattern was.

[dnhoffman]

My bowling alley's house record for high average is 252, set by a thumbless bowler over a 36-week league.

Well, there's one

[DrOcktagon]

Well, there's one

I guess I forgot to mention, it was Tom Daugherty.

[Aslan]

Well, there's one

To put it in perspective…if we polled ALL bowling alleys in the WORLD…I bet there'd be more thumb IN bowlers carrying record high averages than thumbLESS bowlers. I bet you could even add thumbLESS AND 2-handed together….and I'd still win that bet.

And yes, I know I'm not even sort of close to going out on a limb with that bet.

[DrOcktagon]

Yeah, that's pretty obvious.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that thumbless is better. We're just saying it's a viable option. It works for some, but not for most.

I actually find it more impressive watching a consistently good thumb-out or two-handed bowler because I believe that to be more difficult than the traditional approach. It seems like you think it's more difficult, too, Aslan. Doesn't that mean it requires more skill? To do it well, of course.

[Aslan]

I actually find it more impressive watching a consistently good thumb-out or two-handed bowler because I believe that to be more difficult than the traditional approach. It seems like you think it's more difficult, too, Aslan. Doesn't that mean it requires more skill? To do it well, of course.

I think it is a more random approach. Those who do it very, very well...can have very, very high scores...with "nearly" the same consistency of those bowling with a classic approach. I would stop short of saying it takes more "skill" only because I think the scoring with those 2 methods is more dependent on lane conditions and strikes. When I've seen thumbless bowlers (I've never watched 2-handed in person...nobody really does it)...their scores tend to really suffer if lane conditions are variable or they leave spares. Thumbless and 2-handed (and to a far lesser extent, high rev crankers) rely heavily on strikes. I've seen thumbless players strike 4-5 times, then have an open frame, then strike 5 more times. But when it comes time to pick up that spare...they virtually can't do it. I think we've all seen players like that.

It goes back to the question, what is harder...a clean game or a perfect game? Well, easy question...easy answer...a perfect game. But "why" is it harder? Because it takes luck as well as skill. Clean games just require skill...maybe 3% luck. The only "luck" is when the 10-pin falls leaving you the 4-7 instead of the 4-7-10 split. But a perfect game...you gotta have the skill to hit that pocket...adn you gotta have the luck that 3-4 of those frames that one last pin wobbles "just enough".

So yes, I think thumbless and 2-handed are harder to score high consistently...because both styles require luck to be on your side. Thats why I have always said that Jason Belmonte is a special talent...because people don't realize that with his style (2-handed high rev)...you have to read the lane precisely...very little room for error. And...he's a good spare shooter. Most thumbless/2-handed bowlers struggle with spares because the can't throw the ball the same way...they lose muscle memory.

I think we agree, if it works, heck...knock yourself out. Good luck. Where I am more of a nay sayer is...when people get frustrated and start to "switch" because they think that all they have to do is go thumbless or 2-handed and all their problems will be solved. And I'm guilty of that...if I throw a 105-113-115...I'm pretty pissed...and thinking, "maybe I should try thumbless?" But there are no shortcuts in bowling (except for getting a better ball).

I look at bowling styles the way someone might look at a stock market.

stroker- bond funds, low yield, low risk
tweener- 50% bonds/50% stocks
cranker- 80% stocks/20% bonds
thumbless- 95% stocks/5% bonds with 15% of the stocks being high risk
2-handed- 98% stocks/2% bonds with 20% of the stocks in the high risk category.

[sprocket]

Sunday I practiced 9 games and left a slew of 10 pins. I left about two per game at least and never missed one. Of course I throw some spares thumb in, about 20mph with very little roll.

So that can be looked at two ways:

1) It proves that thumbless bowlers can be good spare shooters

2) It proves that I should give up thumbless bowling because I am more accurate thumb in.

It's getting good roll on the ball thumb in that I really struggle with. When I throw at the 10 pin I am doing NOTHING to the ball. I don't need a plastic ball for the 10 pin on ANY lane condition.

[dnhoffman]

SMH - it's about replication of movement. You more than likely completely change your mechanics from shot to shot and don't even realize it. To each his own though, over 36 weeks it all comes out in the wash.