Spare shooting with plastic

[Marc1153]

I know it is recommended to use a plastic for right side spares (10 pin etc) but what is thought about using for 7 pins (right-handed bowler)? Also, how about other single pin spares? I was wondering if I should use plastic on let's say a 2 or 3 pin... or do I use strike ball in hopes I might garner some information about the lane and maybe a better line to the pocket. Do some of you more experienced guys have any thoughts about this? How about leaves like the 2-4-5 type leaves? I get tired of chopping this thing and the 2-5 as well.

[noeymc]

on sport shots i use a plastic ball on almost every spare shot

[dnhoffman]

I'm assuming you're just talking about a THS, and in that case I use plastic for the 4,7,6, & 10 pins myself.

Sport patterns I've played on I tend to use it for almost all my spares outside of the 1-2-3 cone.

[J Anderson]

I know it is recommended to use a plastic for right side spares (10 pin etc) but what is thought about using for 7 pins (right-handed bowler)? Also, how about other single pin spares? I was wondering if I should use plastic on let's say a 2 or 3 pin... or do I use strike ball in hopes I might garner some information about the lane and maybe a better line to the pocket. Do some of you more experienced guys have any thoughts about this? How about leaves like the 2-4-5 type leaves? I get tired of chopping this thing and the 2-5 as well.

If you look at the best spare shooters in the P.B.A., most of them shoot straight at any leave that doesn't have a sleeper. The 2-4-5 is probably about 50/50, since as far as making it, it's the same as the 2-4-5-8.

I prefer to shoot almost everything straight, having thrown basically dead straight for the first 30 years that I bowled. If I'm lined up so that I'm hitting the pocket, I have started to just make a slight move with my fee for making the 5 pin. As for shooting the 2 or the 3 with your strike ball to gain information, If you're lined up, you don't need more info. If you're not lined up, how can you figure out where to set up to make either of these pins?

[e-tank]

what ever i feel like doing at the time tbh. Usually during league i use my spare ball for most spares because i know exactly how the ball will react

[Aslan]

I only use a plastic/spare ball for splits, single 10-pins, or a 6-10.

But then again, I think it greatly depends on what your strike ball is. I have a relatively smoothly arcing strike ball…thus very controllable. If I had a ball with a less controllable, more drastic hook…I might use a spare ball for more leaves.

I don't like the idea of switching balls too much. Muscle memory…consistency approach to approach…it just adds one more variant that for me is unnecessary. Plus, my spare ball is drilled tri-grip…my old spare ball was a pound less and drilled conventional…so I'm not just switching balls, I'm switching grips and in some cases weights….and thats probably not recommended. But I've opened myself up to the idea of using it on the 10-pin and 6-10 simply because it's less difficult to make the straight shot at those pins than to hook it into them.

[mike_thomas93]

I use my spare ball on single pin leaves, like the 10 pin of course. Sometimes I would throw a hook ball on the left side spares like the 7 pin. Just for a THS. For the 2-4-5 leave, I'd probably go for a straight spare ball shot since they don't hook. If you're very precise and accurate on throwing the ball straight like you see like every pro do, then I would definitely say go for a spare ball. On sport shots, you'd probably get away with using a strike ball, as well as a spare ball, but on the longer patterns like the tokyo and london and etc. On the shorter patterns like the sydney and stockholm, etc., definitely spare ball on those little spare leaves.

[vdubtx]

I use my polyester spare ball on any leave on right side of the head pin, any combination of 3,6,9 and 10.

[Stormed1]

I use my spare ball for 90% of my spares. Also all balls are same weight and fit for consistancy in release. It is NOT a good idea to switch weights between balls as that will create inconsistancy in release and timing

[J Anderson]

I don't like the idea of switching balls too much. Muscle memory…consistency approach to approach…it just adds one more variant that for me is unnecessary.

Muscle memory and consistency is the basis of the argument for using a plastic ( polyester ) spare ball. The spare ball allows you to throw mush straighter without changing your release or speed. As long as the balls are the same weight and the same grip it should make your game easier.

[Aslan]

Muscle memory and consistency is the basis of the argument for using a plastic ( polyester ) spare ball. The spare ball allows you to throw mush straighter without changing your release or speed. As long as the balls are the same weight and the same grip it should make your game easier.

My 3 balls I have currently are all different. The main ball/strike ball is standard fingertip grip/15lb. The plastic ball is 15lb tri-grip drilled. And the urethane ball is conventional drilled and 14lbs.

I was hoping to resolve this next time I get a ball drilled, but looks like it won't be totally resolved until I get my next TWO balls drilled. If I decide on tri-grip...I'll have a 16lb tri-grip as a strike ball and a 15lb fingertip as a spare ball. If I decide I don't like the tri-grip...I'll have 2 fingertip grip balls, but one will be 16lb and one 15lb. It won't be until I get the second ball drilled (which is also 16lb) that I'll have two balls, same 16lb weights, same grip).

So again, for me...I try to limit throwing a spare ball unless I absolutely have to since it's going to be a different grip or (in the future) a different weight.

[Aslan]

I just don't see why so many people throw spare balls at pins left of the headpin. The 3-6-9 and 4-8-12 lateral movement philosophy is fairly sound and has been taught for many years. I mean, I can see the cross-alley approach and it's merits for single 7-pins or even a 4-7. But for a bucket or a 2-pin or 5-pin or 8-pin...seems like those would be easier or just as easy to hit with your strike ball and a slight lateral movement.

[vdubtx]

I just don't see why so many people throw spare balls at pins left of the headpin. The 3-6-9 and 4-8-12 lateral movement philosophy is fairly sound and has been taught for many years. I mean, I can see the cross-alley approach and it's merits for single 7-pins or even a 4-7. But for a bucket or a 2-pin or 5-pin or 8-pin...seems like those would be easier or just as easy to hit with your strike ball and a slight lateral movement.

On house shots, not all that necessary for left side leaves(for a righty of course). It is really probably what everyone is comfortable doing. One guy in my Tuesday league is a very good bowler, great form etc. He uses poly ball for all spares regardless of leave, but his accuracy is off sometimes and he will flag a 5 pin for instance where if he threw his regular strike ball, it is just another regular shot at the pocket type of throw.

But, on Sport Shots it is necessary as depending on pattern the volume of oil is higher and your strike ball will not always get through the oil and then hook to pick up those left pin leaves.

[noeymc]

i do to work on my spare game for the summer sport shots

[Aslan]

On house shots, not all that necessary for left side leaves(for a righty of course). It is really probably what everyone is comfortable doing. One guy in my Tuesday league is a very good bowler, great form etc. He uses poly ball for all spares regardless of leave, but his accuracy is off sometimes and he will flag a 5 pin for instance where if he threw his regular strike ball, it is just another regular shot at the pocket type of throw.

I agree. I honestly think many people who go to a "spare ball" should just throw their strike ball and use lateral movement. I mean, yes, a spare/plastic ball is straight and precise...but straight doesn't mean you automatically hit the pin. If I throw my first ball and hit the headpin and leave a 5-pin. All I need to do is throw the same ball, same spot to hit the 5.

But, whatever. To each their own. I asked my coach when I first bought my ball if I should get a "spare ball" and he said "no, not necessary." I then asked him, "Well, why does everyone seem to have one then?" And his response was, "to sell more bowling balls." And that was pretty honest coming from a guy that makes money off of selling more bowling balls.

[Hampe]

I agree. I honestly think many people who go to a "spare ball" should just throw their strike ball and use lateral movement. Try bowling in different centers on different oil patterns and you'll see why people have a spare ball. If I'm bowling for money in a tournament in a center or on a pattern I've never played on before, I can't afford to miss a spare because my strike ball didn't move the way I expected on a spare shot. Having a spare ball gives you the confidence that the ball will go exactly where you throw it, no matter what.

The less you have to think about in a pressure situation, the better. Having to worry about line, ball speed, hand position etc. instead of just hitting your spot is putting unnecessary pressure on yourself, and opening yourself up to mistakes.

All that said though, there are still a few leaves that I'll pick up with a strike ball (like the 5 pin).

[Bunny]

Try bowling in different centers on different oil patterns and you'll see why people have a spare ball. If I'm bowling for money in a tournament in a center or on a pattern I've never played on before, I can't afford to miss a spare because my strike ball didn't move the way I expected on a spare shot. Having a spare ball gives you the confidence that the ball will go exactly where you throw it, no matter what.

The less you have to think about in a pressure situation, the better. Having to worry about line, ball speed, hand position etc. instead of just hitting your spot is putting unnecessary pressure on yourself, and opening yourself up to mistakes.

All that said though, there are still a few leaves that I'll pick up with a strike ball (like the 5 pin).



Well stated Hampe!

I know exactly what my spare ball will do and that it won't make a sudden left turn if it hits a dry spot!! :)

[Mike White]

I just don't see why so many people throw spare balls at pins left of the headpin. The 3-6-9 and 4-8-12 lateral movement philosophy is fairly sound and has been taught for many years. I mean, I can see the cross-alley approach and it's merits for single 7-pins or even a 4-7. But for a bucket or a 2-pin or 5-pin or 8-pin...seems like those would be easier or just as easy to hit with your strike ball and a slight lateral movement.

It was taught for many years because the oil pattern was fairly flat. That has changed.

If you simply move your feet 4 boards left, the oil pattern will do what it can to still guide your ball into the 1-3 pocket.

Once you've moved enough right, (shooting at a 7 pin) the left side of the oil pattern will take that same strike release and hook it into the gutter.

Linear moves on non-linear oil patterns don't work well with balls that are sensitive to the pattern.

Since you can't change the oil pattern, the best thing you can do is use a ball that is not sensitive to the pattern.

[Aslan]

I understand and agree. Like I said originally, with today's patterns and today's more reactive balls...a spare ball is more necessary. I'm in the minority because I'm one of the few low rev/high speed players where my strike ball is relatively straight (9-11 boards) or at best a smooth arc. So it's easy to predict, regardless of how much oil is on the lane, what it will do. I don't put enough revs on it for it to "drastically" do anything when it hits a dry spot. And because it's traveling at just shy of 20mph...it doesn't have "time" to make any drastic turns.

And I "do" use a spare ball for a 10-pin or 6-10. Not because I "cant" use my strike ball...but like it's been said...it becomes a much more precise shot for those leaves. Either it doesn't "cut" at the right time and goes into the gutter or in most cases...I get nervous about the gutter and pull it left of the target.

[dnhoffman]

I agree. I honestly think many people who go to a "spare ball" should just throw their strike ball and use lateral movement. I mean, yes, a spare/plastic ball is straight and precise...but straight doesn't mean you automatically hit the pin. If I throw my first ball and hit the headpin and leave a 5-pin. All I need to do is throw the same ball, same spot to hit the 5.

But, whatever. To each their own. I asked my coach when I first bought my ball if I should get a "spare ball" and he said "no, not necessary." I then asked him, "Well, why does everyone seem to have one then?" And his response was, "to sell more bowling balls." And that was pretty honest coming from a guy that makes money off of selling more bowling balls.

Completely disagree with your coach.

I probably bowl at least one clean game a league night (sometimes 2, yet to pull the hat trick...) and I use a spare ball for the 4/7 as a righty.

[Aslan]

Well...I gotta say...in the past 7 days, I've bowled 3 clean games (I had one before this past week) my highest series ever (607), and 2 of my top 5 best series (530,540).

So what changes have I made?

1) Stopped wearing my wrist support.
2) Stopped throwing a plastic spare ball.
3) Had my thumb hole widened a little.

Now, I'm not saying those are the reasons...I don't know. It could be coincidence, especially concerning the wrist support. And the widening of the thumb hole may be the "biggest" contributer because it's really took a weight off my shoulders of constantly worrying that my thumb was going to stick.

But throwing just the one strike ball seems to be working. Now I have a new ball for synthetics/heavy oil; so I'll use a "spare ball"...but it'll be my 15lb resin ball...not a purely straight on plastic ball. And for splits where I need a straight on shot...I just flatten my wrist...straight as an arrow. I'm not saying it's for everyone...or even most people...but for me, it just really simplifies the game to throw one ball. Same grip...same weight...same motion...same feel....just move laterally...

Could be coincidence or a combo effect...but since making those changes, not only am I striking more (less need to shoot at spares) but my spare conversion rate has went from a 20-60% to more in the 40-80% range.

[tr33frog]

Aslan- I tend to be better on my spares without a wrist guard, but I'm a lot better on a 10 pin with my spare ball. For everything other than the 6 or 10 I use my strike ball. Sadly I'm stuck in the wrist guard, but I still bowl on average a clean game a week. Would probably average a bit higher if not for pocket 7-10 splits and 8-10 splits.

[Aslan]

Aslan- I tend to be better on my spares without a wrist guard, but I'm a lot better on a 10 pin with my spare ball. For everything other than the 6 or 10 I use my strike ball. Sadly I'm stuck in the wrist guard, but I still bowl on average a clean game a week. Would probably average a bit higher if not for pocket 7-10 splits and 8-10 splits.

Like I've said before...I think it greatly depends on each person's strike game. If you're throwing thumbless or heavy hook/cranker...with an amped up ball...that 10 or 6-10 could be an issue. Thats why I don't think it's a "universal truth" that anyone can just throw one ball. I do think it's more possible than some people will have you believe...some people just have to have a "spare ball" or they feel like the world is upside down...even if their strike ball is relatively straight. I bet there are people out there throwing a Columbia WD as a strike ball and a different color Columbia WD as their "spare ball"...thats how addicted I think some bowlers are to the concept.

[tr33frog]

Like I've said before...I think it greatly depends on each person's strike game. If you're throwing thumbless or heavy hook/cranker...with an amped up ball...that 10 or 6-10 could be an issue. Thats why I don't think it's a "universal truth" that anyone can just throw one ball. I do think it's more possible than some people will have you believe...some people just have to have a "spare ball" or they feel like the world is upside down...even if their strike ball is relatively straight. I bet there are people out there throwing a Columbia WD as a strike ball and a different color Columbia WD as their "spare ball"...thats how addicted I think some bowlers are to the concept.

I can buy that. I'm using a 24 year old peal blue hammer as my spare ball. I've tried to use in the past as a strike ball in terribly dry situations, but it loves the 10 pin so much that it left it every dang time it hit the pocket. Move forward, backward, over, just didn't matter, 10 pin, 10 pin, 10 pin. On the plus side, I didn't have to switch balls to pick them up, lol.

[e-tank]

Like I've said before...I think it greatly depends on each person's strike game. If you're throwing thumbless or heavy hook/cranker...with an amped up ball...that 10 or 6-10 could be an issue. Thats why I don't think it's a "universal truth" that anyone can just throw one ball. I do think it's more possible than some people will have you believe...some people just have to have a "spare ball" or they feel like the world is upside down...even if their strike ball is relatively straight. I bet there are people out there throwing a Columbia WD as a strike ball and a different color Columbia WD as their "spare ball"...thats how addicted I think some bowlers are to the concept.

i can see that. Sometimes i leave my spare at home to get some quality time with my strike balls for practice. During league i always use my spare ball especially for 10 pins because i dont want to take the chance of my flat hand turning even a little bit causing a strike ball to hook left of the 10 pin

[Aslan]

During league i always use my spare ball especially for 10 pins because i dont want to take the chance of my flat hand turning even a little bit causing a strike ball to hook left of the 10 pin

For me...and again, I think it varies for each person...but at 19mph bowling across the middle of the oil (from left to right)...my ball won't hook enough to miss the 10-pin. Actually, it's minor hook helps because if I miss a little right...it'll hit the drier part of the right side of the lane and come back just a little to hit the pin instead of the gutter.

[MICHAEL]

If you look at the best spare shooters in the P.B.A., most of them shoot straight at any leave that doesn't have a sleeper. The 2-4-5 is probably about 50/50, since as far as making it, it's the same as the 2-4-5-8.

I prefer to shoot almost everything straight, having thrown basically dead straight for the first 30 years that I bowled. If I'm lined up so that I'm hitting the pocket, I have started to just make a slight move with my fee for making the 5 pin. As for shooting the 2 or the 3 with your strike ball to gain information, If you're lined up, you don't need more info. If you're not lined up, how can you figure out where to set up to make either of these pins?

I think Mr Anderson has some of the best advice!! Iceman couldn't put it any better!! If you get good at shooting straight, then you WILL SEE your Spares improve! I have learned to throw spares with my palm UP! Gives the ball a straight role, and thus makes hitting the 10 pin a lot more times! I still need to HIT THE MARK!! LOL

As J mentioned, its a HUGE ADVANTAGE on SPORTS patterns throwing the ball straight without hook! You take the oil out of the equation!

[Bunny]

From Rob Mautner's Bowling Coach website...


Let me take this opportunity to talk about the inclusion of a plastic spare ball in a small arsenal. Virtually every time I bowl I see bowlers missing spares because they insist that they are just as accurate “flattening out” a reactive ball as they are using a plastic spare ball. To this let me respond that there are very, very few professional bowlers who choose to do this, a those guys are a lot more consistent with a lot more hand positions, and a whole lot more ball speed than these “old school” league bowlers. Now that I have offended a whole lot of bowlers out there, let me add that there is another reason to carry a plastic spare ball; one that most bowlers don’t even consider. Everyone once in a while, even the best bowler may find himself totally lost on a pair of lanes. This often happens when bowling on the end pairs in most any bowling center. In those instances, using your plastic spare ball for your strike shot can be a viable option. Consider this, even with maximum loss of carry, if you are accurate you can get a plastic ball to the pocket, pick up your single pin spares, and bowl a very comfortable 190-200 game. Isn’t this preferable to struggling to find a shot that isn’t there and bowling 160 with lots of splits?



Link to full article...

http://www.modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Coach-Bowling-Balls-Las-Vegas-NV.html


Learn it. Know it. Live it. -Brad Hamilton :cool:

[e-tank]

From Rob Mautner's Bowling Coach website...


Let me take this opportunity to talk about the inclusion of a plastic spare ball in a small arsenal. Virtually every time I bowl I see bowlers missing spares because they insist that they are just as accurate “flattening out” a reactive ball as they are using a plastic spare ball. To this let me respond that there are very, very few professional bowlers who choose to do this, a those guys are a lot more consistent with a lot more hand positions, and a whole lot more ball speed than these “old school” league bowlers. Now that I have offended a whole lot of bowlers out there, let me add that there is another reason to carry a plastic spare ball; one that most bowlers don’t even consider. Everyone once in a while, even the best bowler may find himself totally lost on a pair of lanes. This often happens when bowling on the end pairs in most any bowling center. In those instances, using your plastic spare ball for your strike shot can be a viable option. Consider this, even with maximum loss of carry, if you are accurate you can get a plastic ball to the pocket, pick up your single pin spares, and bowl a very comfortable 190-200 game. Isn’t this preferable to struggling to find a shot that isn’t there and bowling 160 with lots of splits?



Link to full article...

http://www.modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Coach-Bowling-Balls-Las-Vegas-NV.html


Learn it. Know it. Live it. -Brad Hamilton :cool:

I shoulve linked aslan to rob earlier. He pretty much answers and goes against all of aslans old school thinking that i dont have answers for because im no coach

[Aslan]

From Rob Mautner's Bowling Coach website...


let me add that there is another reason to carry a plastic spare ball; one that most bowlers don’t even consider. Everyone once in a while, even the best bowler may find himself totally lost on a pair of lanes. This often happens when bowling on the end pairs in most any bowling center. In those instances, using your plastic spare ball for your strike shot can be a viable option. Consider this, even with maximum loss of carry, if you are accurate you can get a plastic ball to the pocket, pick up your single pin spares, and bowl a very comfortable 190-200 game. Isn’t this preferable to struggling to find a shot that isn’t there and bowling 160 with lots of splits?


I know absolutely ZERO bowlers that would actually do that. I agree with him on that point…but given the ego-mania that bowling has become…nobody other than those that only throw one plastic ball (usually newer players or the very old) will ever put their strike ball away…they'll throw a 99 and switch to 3-5 different strike balls before ever even considering a plastic ball as a strike ball.

[Aslan]

From Rob Mautner's Bowling Coach website...


[I]To this let me respond that there are very, very few professional bowlers who choose to do this, a those guys are a lot more consistent with a lot more hand positions, and a whole lot more ball speed than these “old school” league bowlers. Now that I have offended a whole lot of bowlers out there, :

I think we have to be very careful using the argument…"this is what the pros do so we should all do that!" I realize it's a harder argument in bowling than other sports because the difference between a pro and average bowler is at least in appearance closer…but there are 100 things any one pro bowler does that you would never, never teach a youth bowler to do. They have long approaches, massive revs, immensely high backswings…and are using top of the line specially drilled equipment.

And as I said…when you have a strike ball with THAT MUCH HOOK…I think a spare ball is necessary. But most bowlers don't have that. And the ones that do (thumbless, etc…) wouldn't benefit from a "spare ball" unless they change to a more traditional shot/stroke for spares.

I just think it's not the greatest argument to say "X is a pro…X is good…I want to be good…so I'll imitate X". If ya want to…go ahead. But first you have to pick who to emulate. I've tried to emulate WRW…the 2nd best bowler in history. But I've slowly learned…that emulating a pro bowler tends to work better if you are already a good bowler…otherwise it can create some bad habits.

[Aslan]

I shoulve linked aslan to rob earlier. He pretty much answers and goes against all of aslans old school thinking that i dont have answers for because im no coach

I think he's a great coach and has some really great information…especially in that article. But he IS very, very far from me in terms of beliefs. He's actually quite far from most coaches I've worked with as well. Rob is a very "equipment oriented" kind of bowler/coach. Most coaches I've worked with are more "approach oriented" coaches. Even here on this website…the very knowledgeable (and moderator to the stars) Bowl1820 when reading about my approach issues and my debate over getting a different ball…echoed my coach and Mike White in that "the ball isn't the problem…it's your approach and timing. A new ball isn't going to do anything."

And as painful as that is to hear…they are 99.6% correct. Rob Mautner may disagree….he may say that any bowler with any style can simply find the perfect ball, drilled the perfect way, with just the right surface….and BAMM…300 game! And in theory…thats true. If a bowler can consistently hit a target…with the same approach (bad or good)…theoretically you can make a ball go to the pocket. But is that the best coaching approach…to build a ball around a person's bad approach? Or is it better to work on their approach, give them a decent ball…then show them how to adjust.

I just got done working with Barry Asher…top 50 bowlers in history…not one time did I hear him say, "Whoa…hold up…thats a spare…where's your spare ball?" Not once did I hear him say, "Okay…I see where your problem is…I have a ball that can fix that."

I think Rob has some interesting ideas…I like the article…but I disagree with his overall mindset that the person with the most bowling balls is going to be the better bowler. Although…Iceman is the greatest bowler I know….and he does have a LOT of bowling balls…so :confused:

[bowl1820]

Your right I agree with Mike, your problems are the physical part of your game. You should be concentrating on fixing that, instead arguing all these equipment issues.

And I agree with him where he tells you "That's a lot of opinion, backed up with very little experience." You barely know any of the basic's and you go around condemning the knowledge and experience of people who have been doing this a lot longer than you.

You read thing's that people write and read things into them they didn't say and take totally different meanings from what they said.

Like where you comment on Robs "To this let me respond that there are very, very few professional bowlers who choose to do this......"

You totally miss read what he was saying.
He was saying how house bowlers who are not as good as pros, are using the hardest to use ball they have. To shoot their spares. Why Because they think they are accurate and can “flatten it out” and they are missing spares all the time.

And pros who are good and accurate use the simplest ball to use to pick up spares. Why because it's simpler and easier to use, not because they are just better bowlers.

And he's not even implying you should copy everything the pro's do.

But I think all this is falling on deaf ears, (it's Ball99999 deja vu)

[J Anderson]

From Rob Mautner's Bowling Coach website...


let me add that there is another reason to carry a plastic spare ball; one that most bowlers don’t even consider. Everyone once in a while, even the best bowler may find himself totally lost on a pair of lanes. This often happens when bowling on the end pairs in most any bowling center. In those instances, using your plastic spare ball for your strike shot can be a viable option. Consider this, even with maximum loss of carry, if you are accurate you can get a plastic ball to the pocket, pick up your single pin spares, and bowl a very comfortable 190-200 game. Isn’t this preferable to struggling to find a shot that isn’t there and bowling 160 with lots of splits?


I know absolutely ZERO bowlers that would actually do that. I agree with him on that point…but given the ego-mania that bowling has become…nobody other than those that only throw one plastic ball (usually newer players or the very old) will ever put their strike ball away…they'll throw a 99 and switch to 3-5 different strike balls before ever even considering a plastic ball as a strike ball.

Wait till you join a sport league, especially if it's a summer one, where a lot of fairly good house bowlers will use it as a practice league to try to improve their games. Not many will actually do it because of peer pressure, but almost every one runs into a pattern that they either just can't figure out or that's a really bad match for the equipment they broughtand the thought runs through their mind " I might as well be throwing my spare ball straight t the pocket."

[J Anderson]

I think we have to be very careful using the argument…"this is what the pros do so we should all do that!" I realize it's a harder argument in bowling than other sports because the difference between a pro and average bowler is at least in appearance closer…but there are 100 things any one pro bowler does that you would never, never teach a youth bowler to do. They have long approaches, massive revs, immensely high backswings…and are using top of the line specially drilled equipment.

And as I said…when you have a strike ball with THAT MUCH HOOK…I think a spare ball is necessary. But most bowlers don't have that. And the ones that do (thumbless, etc…) wouldn't benefit from a "spare ball" unless they change to a more traditional shot/stroke for spares.

I just think it's not the greatest argument to say "X is a pro…X is good…I want to be good…so I'll imitate X". If ya want to…go ahead. But first you have to pick who to emulate. I've tried to emulate WRW…the 2nd best bowler in history. But I've slowly learned…that emulating a pro bowler tends to work better if you are already a good bowler…otherwise it can create some bad habits.

"but there are 100 things any one pro bowler does that you would never, never teach a youth bowler to do."
I'm not sure it's a 100 things, but if you change youth to beginner, I basically agree with you. There are a few pros, usually older ones like Brian Voss, Parker Bohn III, and Steve Jaros, whose techniques are textbook.

However, if you focus on the things that almost every pro does, from having a pre-shot routine to shooting single pins spares straight with a polyester ball, you have fundamentals that can be taught to almost anyone. And it's a whole lot easier to sell youth bowlers on doing something the way a famous professional does it than to say well this is what the coaching manual says to do, even though they're both the same method.

[MICHAEL]

J Mr Anderson,,, you have me all pumped up ready to take on a sports league!! Not sure how well I will do, but the challenge will be what's it all about for me!! I like to learn new things, and this will be ONE HUGE HOOT!!!! Come on Summer!!!!

[Aslan]

Your right I agree with Mike, your problems are the physical part of your game. You should be concentrating on fixing that, instead arguing all these equipment issues.

And I agree with him where he tells you "That's a lot of opinion, backed up with very little experience." You barely know any of the basic's and you go around condemning the knowledge and experience of people who have been doing this a lot longer than you.

Point taken. Apparently I'll have to increase my average before being allowed to have an opinion. Noted.


You read thing's that people write and read things into them they didn't say and take totally different meanings from what they said.

Like where you comment on Robs "To this let me respond that there are very, very few professional bowlers who choose to do this......"

I think you misunderstood what I meant. Rob said (and I quoted it) that there is another reason to carry a plastic/spare ball…and that is that at times when you feel "lost"…you can always pull out your spare ball and use it as a strike ball. My comment was related to that…I see ZERO bowlers doing that. I see many struggle on league night…and not ONE has ever just started throwing their spare ball as their strike ball.


And he's not even implying you should copy everything the pro's do.
Some people are…I was commenting on that mentality. I've heard it stated from NUMEROUS site users. Yet when Iceman points out that nearly zero pros wear a wrist support….the same folks will say, "I don't care what the pros do, I like to wear it so I wear it." It's hypocritical in my opinion.


But I think all this is falling on deaf ears, (it's Ball99999 deja vu)

Nope…loud and clear.

[Aslan]

Wait till you join a sport league, especially if it's a summer one, where a lot of fairly good house bowlers will use it as a practice league to try to improve their games. Not many will actually do it because of peer pressure, but almost every one runs into a pattern that they either just can't figure out or that's a really bad match for the equipment they broughtand the thought runs through their mind " I might as well be throwing my spare ball straight t the pocket."

I think we are in agreement. What Rob is saying, nearly zero bowlers will ever do…primarily because of ego/peer pressure.

[Aslan]

"but there are 100 things any one pro bowler does that you would never, never teach a youth bowler to do."
I'm not sure it's a 100 things, but if you change youth to beginner, I basically agree with you. There are a few pros, usually older ones like Brian Voss, Parker Bohn III, and Steve Jaros, whose techniques are textbook.

However, if you focus on the things that almost every pro does, from having a pre-shot routine to shooting single pins spares straight with a polyester ball, you have fundamentals that can be taught to almost anyone. And it's a whole lot easier to sell youth bowlers on doing something the way a famous professional does it than to say well this is what the coaching manual says to do, even though they're both the same method.

I agree with that. But like you said, when someone says, "do it like the pros do it"…I think a great many of them don't understand how very, very different bowlers approaches can be.

One (of many) examples:

The technique I was taught was to hold the ball at chin level to start…then push it out as you make your first step.

When I had my first lesson, the pro said to hold it at belt level and just drop it as you take your first step…no need to push it out. Then I went to a clinic…and the guy said to hold it chest level…and push it out with my first step.

Yet…I've watched about 75 different bowlers…and I've seen the ball start at just about EVERY spot imaginable! Some have it at chin level, some at chest level, some at belt level. Some hold it to the side rather than directly in front. One guy (bonus points if you know who) actually started with the ball parallel to his leg and started his pendulum swing forward, THEN took the first step.

So yeah…pros are pros…if all else fails; take a look at their approach and learn from it. And you're right, Parker Bohn…great, great template of an approach. But I stop short of using the arguement (most pros do X, so you should too). I mean, I've seen pro bowlers open their hand to the right (righties) in their backswing…with a backswing WAY above their head…a 5-6 step approach…many things I wouldn't necessarily recommend to a newcomer to the sport.

[bowl1820]

Point taken. Apparently I'll have to increase my average before being allowed to have an opinion. Noted.

Your perfectly welcome to have a opinion and post.

It's just the way you do it with that "I know better than you attitude" that people have a problem with.

[Aslan]

Your perfectly welcome to have a opinion and post.

It's just the way you do it with that "I know better than you attitude" that people have a problem with.

I'll keep that in mind and refrain from posting unless I make it clear up front that I most certainly don't know anything and thus my opinion is purely for entertainment purposes.

[bowl1820]

I'll keep that in mind and refrain from posting unless I make it clear up front that I most certainly don't know anything and thus my opinion is purely for entertainment purposes.

Here's a thought, Since your dissatisfied with the information here get a 2nd opinion.

Go over to these sites and tell them how you bowl and ask them, these are two of the biggest bowling sites going.

http://www.bowlingchat.net/
This site is full of coaches and Pro Shop owners and people that work in the bowling industry.

or
http://www.ballreviews.com
Lots of expert bowlers there, they even have a ball giveaway too!


Now it's a reasonable option, but I doubt you'd do it.

[Aslan]

I thank you for providing the links and will check them out.

[classygranny]

I agree with that. But like you said, when someone says, "do it like the pros do it"…I think a great many of them don't understand how very, very different bowlers approaches can be.
One (of many) examples:

The technique I was taught was to hold the ball at chin level to start…then push it out as you make your first step.

When I had my first lesson, the pro said to hold it at belt level and just drop it as you take your first step…no need to push it out. Then I went to a clinic…and the guy said to hold it chest level…and push it out with my first step.

Yet…I've watched about 75 different bowlers…and I've seen the ball start at just about EVERY spot imaginable! Some have it at chin level, some at chest level, some at belt level. Some hold it to the side rather than directly in front. One guy (bonus points if you know who) actually started with the ball parallel to his leg and started his pendulum swing forward, THEN took the first step.

So yeah…pros are pros…if all else fails; take a look at their approach and learn from it. And you're right, Parker Bohn…great, great template of an approach. But I stop short of using the arguement (most pros do X, so you should too). I mean, I've seen pro bowlers open their hand to the right (righties) in their backswing…with a backswing WAY above their head…a 5-6 step approach…many things I wouldn't necessarily recommend to a newcomer to the sport.

Well, for some reason I just can't seem to keep my humble opinion to myself, even knowing the chastising will be coming soon.

Doing it like the Pros is something that I have started to strive toward. In one of the posts, I saw someone say "copy" the Pros, and I feel that would NOT be the thing to do. UNDERSTANDING what and why the Pros do what they do (and they are ALL very, very, very similar) would be the first and foremost thing a person would need to do in order to achieve the excellence that we see in Pro Bowling. I admit, they all have their own "styles". Not to be confused with approach, footwork, and release. If you truly want to understand the sport of bowling, understanding the timing of footwork to ball release is of upmost importance. Mark Baker's book, The Game Changer, explains very well how so many "styles" can still have the same "timing". It is well worth the money and the read for any level of player.

Also, some bowlers change the height of positioning the ball according to the lane conditions and the timing they want to achieve for that particular pattern. I'm guessing that the 75 different bowlers you are speaking of may not have been during a regional or pro tournament, with all of the 75 bowlers being of the same caliber. Go watch the Pros live and you may see what I speak of. If the 75 bowlers were averaging between 100 and 230, then I would expect that you would see a great variation. Again, every persons timing is identical in three spots (if they are in correct time) and thus, one person may find they have to hold the ball higher or lower in order to achieve that correct timing.

I'm sure the change of your stance/footowork by different coaches may be being caused as you seem to constantly change weights of balls, as well as your progression on changing a few things in your bowling...ie, less loft, more knee bend, etc.

Lastly, yes, look at their approach - but UNDERSTAND what you are looking at. Honestly, you will see their timing is identical at the crucial points. My opinion, timing is crucial...I work on that the most - all other stuff seems to come more natural and easier if my timing is close to correct - thus, less struggling to learn new things. For example, learning to shoot my spares with my plastic ball.

I am currently in the process of learning to shoot most (except double wood) spares with my plastic spare ball. It is drilled identical to my strike balls, same finger grips, use same IT slugs, and I release it just like my strike ball, but because it is plastic it goes straight. This makes less for me to be concerned with - no breaking my wrist, no coming up the back of the ball - back and forth between strike and spare. Since most "spare shooting systems" are based on your strike line, if you are not correctly adjusted to the lanes yet, then why chance throwing a strike ball/spare shooting system for a much needed spare, when you KNOW the plastic will go straight no matter the lane condition? Of course, as I said...in my humble opinion.

[dnhoffman]

I am currently in the process of learning to shoot most (except double wood) spares with my plastic spare ball. It is drilled identical to my strike balls, same finger grips, use same IT slugs, and I release it just like my strike ball, but because it is plastic it goes straight. This makes less for me to be concerned with - no breaking my wrist, no coming up the back of the ball - back and forth between strike and spare. Since most "spare shooting systems" are based on your strike line, if you are not correctly adjusted to the lanes yet, then why chance throwing a strike ball/spare shooting system for a much needed spare, when you KNOW the plastic will go straight no matter the lane condition? Of course, as I said...in my humble opinion.

Exactly what you (and any sensible bowler who's not averaging above 220) should do! I have the same span/pitch etc. on my spare ball. Pick up ball, switch IT, throw on correct line, and change NOTHING about my mechanics throughout the night, no matter what ball I'm using.

[Hampe]

Point taken. Apparently I'll have to increase my average before being allowed to have an opinion. Noted.C'mon dude....seriously? You're seriously going to play the victim card? Listen, people on this forum aren't getting fed up with you just because you disagree with them (or because you don't have a high average). It's because you disagree with people who are experienced and know what they're talking about, while you yourself are clearly inexperienced, and it's obvious you don't know what the hell you are talking about half the time. Your average has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You want to know what adjustments a lofting, high-speed, low-rev player needs to make on heavy oil? Stop lofting, slow down your ball speed, and put more revs on the ball.....if you can't do that, then you play a straight line to the pocket. That's all you can do. Moving around on the approach will not make your ball hook if you are throwing it too fast and with not enough revs. You think the modern game puts you at a disadvantage? You're right...you know why? Because you're a beginner, and beginners are always at a disadvantage in every competitive activity.

Dnhoffman is right in that you worry way too much about **** that really doesn't matter for a beginner (like lane surface for example), while overlooking the most important thing: fundamentals. You need to fix your approach and delivery first, and be open minded about it (not just declaring "well my style is high speed and low revs and that's that"). You don't have a style yet.....you're a beginner. I know you're working with a coach to fix this, and that's good. I would recommend sticking with one coach at first since as you noticed, 3 coaches will tell you 3 different ways to play (even if the basics like timing are the same, it can get confusing).

As for the two topics that I missed this weekend:
You're right that YOU don't "need" a spare ball. You're still a beginner. When I switched from straight to bowling with a hook in 2009, I only played with one ball all season (a light-oil, beginner-performance ball). Once I started to get the basics of an approach and release down, then I drilled a heavy oil ball and used the light-oil ball as my spare ball. I used that ball as a spare ball for 4 seasons, and just recently switched to a plastic spare ball. I can tell you from experience that a plastic spare ball is better (and I'm not the only one). Yes, you can get by without one, but it is still an advantage to use one. That isn't even up for debate.

As for number of balls, nobody says you have to have 7 balls. You can get by with 2-3 strike balls and 1 spare ball. BUT, it's a simple fact that certain balls match up better to certain patterns/conditions (however bowling was played 40 years ago is irrelevant). Getting a strike isn't just about hitting the pocket, it's about hitting the pocket at the right angle. By changing my starting position, ball speed, and hand position, I can get any of my balls to hit the pocket on any lane condition. That doesn't mean I have the same chance of striking each time. Depending on condition of the lane, I will have a better angle into the pocket with one ball compared to the others. That's why if you plan on shooting high-scores in any center you visit, it's important to have a few different strike balls in your arsenal. Now if you are a beginner, you probably should start with just one strike ball (2 max.). Like you, I know plenty of people that have 6 balls and just switch whenever one of them isn't working. It's not just about having more balls, you should also know and understand when and why you are switching balls. I wouldn't suggest to any beginner that he needs 3-4 strike balls. Build your game up first, and then you can build your arsenal to match your game.

Look dude, I don't think anybody here dislikes you personally. I bet most people enjoy the majority of your posts and want you to stay. And just because you're a beginner doesn't mean you can't express your opinion. Just accept that when 10 people with 10-20+ more years of bowling experience are telling you that you're wrong about something, you might actually be wrong about it.

[vdubtx]

@Hampe, couldn't have said it better.

[J Anderson]

@Hampe, couldn't have said it better.

Only one quibble, " Getting a strike isn't just about hitting the pocket, it's about hitting the pocket at the right angle." It's also having the ball hit the pins at the correct phase of ball motion, if it hits too late, i.e. after it has rolled out, it might not have enough energy left to carry well. If it hits too soon, it may just drive through without deflecting enough to take out the nine pin ( the 8 for you/us lefties ). And this is even more of a reason for changing balls.

[Hampe]

Only one quibble, " Getting a strike isn't just about hitting the pocket, it's about hitting the pocket at the right angle." It's also having the ball hit the pins at the correct phase of ball motion, if it hits too late, i.e. after it has rolled out, it might not have enough energy left to carry well. If it hits too soon, it may just drive through without deflecting enough to take out the nine pin ( the 8 for you/us lefties ). And this is even more of a reason for changing balls.
Yea, that's true.....I was just trying to keep it simple :)

The point is simply that there is a reason that having more than one strike ball is an accepted part of the game nowadays.

[MICHAEL]

Look dude, I don't think anybody here dislikes you personally. I bet most people enjoy the majority of your posts and want you to stay. And just because you're a beginner doesn't mean you can't express your opinion. Just accept that when 10 people with 10-20+ more years of bowling experience are telling you that you're wrong about something, you might actually be wrong about it.

speak for yourself ,,, lol :)

[Bunny]

I just got done working with Barry Asher…top 50 bowlers in history…not one time did I hear him say, "Whoa…hold up…thats a spare…where's your spare ball?" Not once did I hear him say, "Okay…I see where your problem is…I have a ball that can fix that."


That's because at the $10 clinic they only look at how you're throwing your strike ball and give you a couple/few tips.


Even with a private lesson with Mark Baker, he only works your strike ball. I guess if you can master throwing your strike ball well in a lot of conditions, the spare shooting will come along fairly easily. (Like Hampe said he learned.)

[Bunny]

I know absolutely ZERO bowlers that would actually do that.


Actually, you know at least two bowlers who have used their spare ball for their strike ball when the conditions were tough and nothing else was working. I've done it in league at Carter and the guy who we bowled last week (who is a good bowler) has done it. It's good team play.

[Aslan]

Actually, you know at least two bowlers who have used their spare ball for their strike ball when the conditions were tough and nothing else was working. I've done it in league at Carter and the guy who we bowled last week (who is a good bowler) has done it. It's good team play.

I've never seen you use the blue/white spare ball on your first shot. I've seen you switch back and forth between the First Blood and Hy Road for strike shots but I can't remember ever seeing the white/blue ball on a first shot. I must have been off acquiring gin and tonics or something...because I've never seen that. And I can barely remember who it was we played last week, much less what ball they threw. I think it was two older ladies and a younger bald guy. I thought they all pretty much just threw one ball...but you'd know better since I'm sure you have bowled against them more often in the past....like I said, I can barely remember who we played.


I guess if you can master throwing your strike ball well in a lot of conditions, the spare shooting will come along fairly easily.

If you can truly master throwing your strike ball...you'll technically never need a "spare ball" because you'll knock down all 10 pins on the first ball every time. :cool:

But it's all good. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day.

[bowl1820]

Besides...you think Bowl1820 is gonna allow ME to win a ball???!"[/I]

Well I don't have a thing to do with picking who wins a ball.

But every ones right marks thread here has been totally hosed so I'm ending it.