Holding the ball for maximum hook

[zdawg]

For the last two months or so I've been having trouble creating a consistent hook with my ball, often times it rotates but continues straight through the pins without reacting on the backend.

Now, I've been operating under the assumption that I should keep my hand under the ball and behind the ball (as if I was going to throw the ball straight) until the moment of release when I rotate the fingers, etc. to put a hook on the ball.

Well, last night I was practicing with a friend of mine who is brand new and he was bowling with a lot of hook (albeit uncontrollable at the moment) and he was starting with his hand more on the side of the ball rather than behind. He asked about putting the hand behind the ball and I mentioned that I had been doing that, and when he did his ball had the same non-reaction as mine.

So, after doing some youtubing I came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbUb8x3myx8

This guy is saying if you want to hook the ball you should start with your hand on the side somewhat, is that correct? I might have been misunderstanding this simple point all along, so I thought I'd ask around - it seems for every pointer I can find online, I can find somebody who advises the complete opposite which to me seems to be the most frustrating thing about trying to learn this game LOL. Then again, I could be completely wrong and just never realized it until now :D

[sprocket]

I made a post yesterday about this EXACT same thing. I've got to get back to work but it should be easy to find. My quick response is that if the hand is fully on the side it's not good, but giving the hand somewhat of a head start by being partially on the side can be very good. Most of the pros don't do that but a great many of them are freaks of nature and do things most bowlers can't.

[Aslan]

Ya got me man.

I learned that you keep your hand behind the ball until that exact moment you release and then you shoot your hand up the side of the ball as/after your thumb exits. The problem is...I can't figure out how to do that without muscling and lofting it....because if you're "trying"to get that snap release and higher revs...and you don't get that hand completely up the side (still a bit behind the ball)...that effort is going to push/throw the ball.

I also saw a more advanced video on adding more revs/hook where they talk about starting out with a more open position on your backswing...where instead of the ball being cupped in front of your hand on the backswing...its facing out away from you or your is actually turned completely around as if you're reaching back with your palm up. This is "supposed to" generate more revs because rather than the hand going from the bottom of the ball to the side (90 degrees)...your hand is going almost side to side (180 degrees) or from upside down to the side (270 degrees). That being said...I tried it and it felt so weird that the ball was going off in every direction...even more than usual! It's hard enough to hit your mark consistently just rolling the ball....when ya start adding a snapped wrist or some 270 degree wrist spin...it gets even mroe difficult...for ME anyways.

I've found that I have to concentrate on it. If I don't remind myself to snap the wrist...I end up releasing a lot of shots where my hand barely gets over to the side and there's virtually no hook...even at a lower speed. I'll still usually hit the headpin...but if it's a REAL lazy release I'll sometimes miss and hit the 3-pin which tends to leave me a 1-2-4-7-10 split as the ball cuts straight through the right side.

Keep me updated...I'm working on the same problem.

[J Anderson]

Ah the internet...it must be true, I saw it on the internet!

Seriously there are a lot of ways to make the ball hook. The guy in the clip you posted is describing the simplest way to make the ball hook, which for many recreational bowlers is as much as they'll ever need since they either won't want, or be able to practice enough to master a more complicated technique. This is what Fred Borden used to call the money shot because the thumb is pointed at the hip pocket where most guys keep their wallet. In fact you should listen to Fred explain it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGIyYa5egu8

It's pretty old school. It won't give you anywhere near the hook that the pros get but it does give you a shot that's easy to repeat and control, and that gives you a better angle to the pocket than going straight.

[Aslan]

This topic also tends to lead to many thumbless and 2-handed players. I have to admit...on the days where getting the ball to hook has seemed impossible...I can't deny I've taken a house ball and tried to 2-hand it or palm it. It "seems" like an easy way around the problem. Then I do it 1-2 times....knock down a total of 1 pin...and go back to the drawing board.

[dnhoffman]

Best thing you can do for more ball motion is to play the inside of the ball as seen here at 6:00:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nnDbV0znE

[zdawg]

Best thing you can do for more ball motion is to play the inside of the ball as seen here at 6:00:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nnDbV0znE

Yeah, I think I have to go back to the coach and have him do nothing but analyze what I'm doing when I release the ball I guess.

I wish I knew what I was doing when I first started because I could get the ball to hook like crazy, now I'm getting closer to two months straight where I can barely get a hook on my best throws, but most of them it revs and revs and revs and never breaks at all. The senior leagues bowl around lunchtime at my alley, and while I was there today there was an old timer next to me who was watching me for about half a game...He looked at me and said "Why doesn't your ball break at all?", I looked at him and said "I was hoping you could tell me that".

To make matters worse I'm starting to damage my wrist trying anything and everything to force the ball to hook - I've now got pain on the right and left side where the ligaments are, which tells me I'm just not doing something right.

My first month of bowling, my form was downright abysmal (which I'm sure is true for most first timers) but my hook was great and my scores went up every week. Then one day after my first lesson, while practicing I noticed I could no longer hook the ball, and while I've worked hard (practicing 6 days a week and league 1 day a week now) fixing a lot of things with my form I still cannot hook the ball reliably at the lane I bowl my league.

Also a buddy of mine just moved to San Diego and we had somebody drop off our team so he took their place. He's a complete beginner so he bought a new ball, and with terrible form (although he's working on it) and a few instructions from me he can now hook the ball like crazy. I watch folks that can barely walk up to the foul line sort of drop their ball in a forward motion and they hook. It just leaves me shaking my head as to what happened to me...I'm at a complete loss :confused:

Oh well, this post was mostly me just venting hopefully my coach will know what to make of it because bowling has now become more of a chore than anything else at this point :(

[dnhoffman]

Well it's either the lane, the ball, or you.

You can eliminate the lane.

De-oil the ball ever? If it's not dead-ball syndrome due to oil absorption - then it's YOUR. And if it's you, then there's about a 90% chance you're squeezing and spinning the ball,

[zdawg]

Well it's either the lane, the ball, or you.

You can eliminate the lane.

De-oil the ball ever? If it's not dead-ball syndrome due to oil absorption - then it's YOUR. And if it's you, then there's about a 90% chance you're squeezing and spinning the ball,

I did de-oil the ball somewhat using the hot water bucket/soap method, not sure how much that helped. Its a used ball, so while I have no idea how many games were on it before I bought it, at this point I've put about 200 games myself. At some point I'll probably build a DIY rejuvenator based on that thread regarding the dehydrator (I think you created it if I'm not mistaken).

I wish there was an easy way to test a new ball without buying one, but obviously nobody I know has a ball drilled to fit my fingers. I did get the thumb plugged and redrilled, and I've started using tape so I think I can safely rule out too much space in the thumbhole (unless my proshop guys really don't know what they're doing, but the regulars seem to like them so I find that unlikely).

So yeah, I'm gonna meet with the coach and make absolutely certain he can't detect something wrong that I'm doing, and if he still insists things look good it might be time to shop for a new ball I guess.

[dnhoffman]

I'd bet dollars to donuts you're squeezing the ball. Does the inside of your thumb hurt?

[zdawg]

I'd bet dollars to donuts you're squeezing the ball. Does the inside of your thumb hurt?

No, it used to though...I used to tear a chunk of skin off the inside of my thumb from squeezing it, thankfully I stopped doing that, it also used to "pop" off my thumb when I first started but I also correct that as well.

Doesn't mean I'm not still squeezing it in another fashion though I guess.

[J Anderson]

I wish there was an easy way to test a new ball without buying one,

Some times pro shops and / or alleys will have demo days. Often these are sponsored by the ball manufacturers so you might be limited to only one or two related brands. The demo balls are fitted with interchangeable grips and they'll have a few different spans.

[zdawg]

Some times pro shops and / or alleys will have demo days. Often these are sponsored by the ball manufacturers so you might be limited to only one or two related brands. The demo balls are fitted with interchangeable grips and they'll have a few different spans.

Thanks for the tip, I stop by the pro shop a lot these days so I know the guys pretty well I'll ask them and see if there is anything like that coming up.

[Aslan]

I watch folks that can barely walk up to the foul line sort of drop their ball in a forward motion and they hook. It just leaves me shaking my head as to what happened to me...I'm at a complete loss :confused:

Oh well, this post was mostly me just venting hopefully my coach will know what to make of it because bowling has now become more of a chore than anything else at this point :(

Z-
I went through a similar issue...when I started I had a real high loft and more of a muscling/should action type of swing. And the ball naturally had a good amount of revs to hit because I was putting so much muscle into the release and releasing it on the upswing (rather than next to my sliding foot.

Then I realized that while that was great on low oil conditions...it was too much speed on heavier oil conditions. I tried EVERYTHING to keep that same throw/release because it felt so natural and I DID have success with it early on. But at the end of the day...I was averaging 118 on heavy oil despite averaging 182 on low oil. And since most alleys were moderate to heavier oil...I HAD to change. A new ball isn't going to help. I tried that. De-oiling isn't going to help. A wrist support isn't going to help...that actually reduced my hook potential because I couldn't cup my wrist. Sanding the ball surface isn't going to help; that just made it worse because the ball rolled out sooner.

At the end of the day...no matter how "weird" it felt...and as hard as it was early on...I HAD to slow the ball down...release earlier...use the lane. I don't have a big hook, more of a "curve"...but by simply slowing it down (from 19.5mph to 14.5mph) I can play the inside ...play the outside...and get the ball to move. I have lost that "umpff" that gave me more revs...but I'm trying to improve my release to try and get a little of that back. But until then...just slowing it down works.

Like I said before...next time you practice...if you have a lane that shows the speed...just experiement. Try throwing it 1mph less than usual. See if it hooks. Then try 2mph slower....etc... I bowl with a woman in her 70s on Friday night. A tiny old asian lady. She essentially drops the ball with a little helicoptor spin. Takes the ball about 60 seconds to reach the pins (maybe not that long...but it feels like AGES). And guess what? It hooks. From the far left gutter (she's a lefty) sometimes across the headpin...coast to coast. It's not the ball...the ball is a urethane ball... a "spare ball" essentially. She averages about 153-157. She gets a lot of splits...has trouble with pin carry at that insanely low speed with a light ball...but it HOOKs.

Slow it down...EXAGGERATE it...see how slow you can throw it!! If it doesn't hook...then maybe your alley is on some kinda magnetic pole with gravity problems or something...but I'm 99.7% sure it'll hook. Try it...prove me wrong. If ya do, you'll be that much popular around here!! Win Win!!

[sprocket]

Here's a catch phrase that I find kind of irritating: "Work the inside of the ball".

I'm not saying that isn't good advice, but how many lower to mid average bowlers are there beating their heads against the wall trying to work the inside of the ball? They get all muscled up, force their hand open, open their shoulders, cut off their back swings, contort their wrists, over turn it at the bottom, hang up in the thumb hole.....all because working the inside of the ball is such great advice.

It IS good advice but save it for when you are more advanced. Some youth bowlers seem to have this down pretty quickly but if you don't have it naturally, you are probably not going to get it easily.

Here's my advice: Simplify your form. Will your hand end up partially on the side of the ball at release? Yes it will so give it a head start in that direction. Once the ball is already tipped even slightly to the inside this wonderful thing called gravity will come to your aid.

[dnhoffman]

Sorry but I disagree sprocket, working the inside does not equate to muscling or contorting anything if you're doing it right.

[sprocket]

Sorry but I disagree sprocket, working the inside does not equate to muscling or contorting anything if you're doing it right.


I agree, but so often they do it completely wrong because they don't understand how to do it and I personally think it is a hard thing to learn without a good coach watching.

Yeah, I could be wrong. Do you personally think working the inside is something you can talk someone through or do you think you need to be there?

I guess I see so many really messed up and overly complicated swings that I wonder what the heck they are trying to do. Obviously they are trying to accomplish SOMETHING and I often think they are trying to get their hand in a strong position and are failing miserably.

[Hammer]

The easiest way for beginners to hook the ball is to hold the ball with the palm facing up and then just rotate your hand towards your
body about an inch or two. After you do this make your swing with your wrist straight and keep your hand in this position all the way through the release. This way you don't have to worry about turning your hand a little through the release. You keep your hand in the same position through the whole swing. Two things to remember. Make sure your body is tilted to the ball side a little before you start your approach. This will make sure your swing stays under your head going into the backswing and then through the forward swing.
Doing this will give you more energy into the shot. The other thing is to make sure that after your thumb comes out of the ball your two fingers that are in your ball stay bent when the ball comes off your hand. This is what puts revs on the ball. And don't grip the ball hard
with your thumb. If you do your thumb knukle will raise up and that will slow the thumb down from coming out of the ball and that is a
rev killer. So doing this is the easiest way for a beginner or someone that lost their ability to put revs on the ball to curve the ball. Just leave your hand turned a little to the inside all the way through the backswing and through the forward swing. You can get some cheap
entry level balls that are good for learning to hook the ball. By cheap doesn't mean that they are garbage. You can look at them on
bowlingball.com site.

[zdawg]

Thanks to all that have responded to the thread, just to give a quick update. Met with my coach earlier today, the first thing he did was rub an abralon pad on my ball (it's a used entry level ball that I have been throwing the hell out of for 3 months) and voila instant hook. After that we worked on my release for a while, a couple things he mentioned:

1) He thinks I was most likely trying too hard to rotate the ball and turning my hand too much, I'm not positive about this but he showed me exactly how much to turn at the release point and things improved immediately

2) He also told me to add a little bit of loft near the beginning, prior to I was setting the ball just at or just past the foul line, he wanted me to add about a foot and a half of loft which also increased the revs

3) He assured me as I continue to practice with the smooth release I will get better and the revs will come, also if I find myself getting frustrated and spinning the ball/no reaction on the backend to slow down the release and go back to the basics he worked on with me today.

Also on a non-technique note, he mentioned that he feels I've improved drastically on my fundamentals to the point where he recommends me moving up a notch in ball quality - he mentioned some specific balls to check out, and the guy that owns a local pro shop here has a bunch of "old" balls (from the beginning of the year) that he wants to get rid of for some really good prices so I'm planning on picking one up soon and practicing with it once my league goes on a temporary break.

He also suggested getting/using an abralon pad 1000 (grit I think its the same idea as sandpaper) for that particular ball if I want to make it tad bit more reactive in the meantime. I'll probably shoot some new video over the next week or so and post it here for more expert dissection of my game

[the_grimace]

I think being directly behind the ball is the way you get the most revs. Being inside the ball is not easy to pull off even though there is potential for more revs if done correctly. Being outside you don't get as much rev potential compared to being directly behind the ball. Getting revs is more about a strong snap of the wrist as you uncup it anyway.

[sprocket]

OK, I'd like to post a couple of videos showing two releases on the extreme ends of the spectrum regarding hand position at the bottom of the swing. The first is Pete Weber. Although Pete opens his hand in his back swing, he closes it back up before release. If you pause the video at 0:17 you can see that his hand is not on the inside of the ball at the release point. His fingers pretty much straight behind the ball with a slight cock to his wrist. From there they rotate to about three o'clock when his fingers let go. With Pete's release his hand actually rotates to about four o'clock before his thumb ever exits.

The second video is Michael Fagan. Fagan is the ultimate extreme example of playing the inside of the ball. If you pause the video at about 0:24 you can see that his fingers are on the extreme inside of the ball in about the eight o'clock position. From there his hand turns counter clockwise but his fingers never go past six o'clock all the way through release!

The thing these two guys have in common is that nobody else releases the ball quite like they do. What the comparison shows is that there are a variety of ways to generate good roll on a bowling ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSPqIM18Zc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdDL51Awsr4

[zdawg]

Z-
Slow it down...EXAGGERATE it...see how slow you can throw it!! If it doesn't hook...then maybe your alley is on some kinda magnetic pole with gravity problems or something...but I'm 99.7% sure it'll hook. Try it...prove me wrong. If ya do, you'll be that much popular around here!! Win Win!!

LOL, my coach today did tell me when in doubt slow it down to the speed we did early in my lesson today, and if it still wasn't hooking either there is something wrong with the lane or we're having an earthquake :D

[zdawg]

OK, I'd like to post a couple of videos showing two releases on the extreme ends of the spectrum regarding hand position at the bottom of the swing. The first is Pete Weber. Although Pete opens his hand in his back swing, he closes it back up before release. If you pause the video at 0:17 you can see that his hand is not on the inside of the ball at the release point. His fingers pretty much straight behind the ball with a slight cock to his wrist. From there they rotate to about three o'clock when his fingers let go. With Pete's release his hand actually rotates to about four o'clock before his thumb ever exits.

The second video is Michael Fagan. Fagan is the ultimate extreme example of playing the inside of the ball. If you pause the video at about 0:24 you can see that his fingers are on the extreme inside of the ball in about the eight o'clock position. From there his hand turns counter clockwise but his fingers never go past six o'clock all the way through release!

The thing these two guys have in common is that nobody else releases the ball quite like they do. What the comparison shows is that there are a variety of ways to generate good roll on a bowling ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSPqIM18Zc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdDL51Awsr4

Nice videos and you're right, the more I learn the more I realize once you really get the basic fundamentals down (not there yet but working on it) you sort of mold your game in your own way - the pros of course are the best example of this as many of the little things they do are completely different from one to the next but they still manage to do well and make it look easy

[Hammer]

The reason for swinging the ball with your hand on the inside of the ball, if you can do it, is it helps prevent your hand from turning too early through the release area. If you leave your hand behind the ball to the top of your backswing and through your forward swing there is a chance that you will turn your hand too early when you reach the release area. If you notice the pros hand start to turn from open to behind the ball as they reach the release zone and then about an inch or two more going through the release area just the right amount when the ball leaves their hand. The other thing to make sure you get good revs at release is to swing your ball close to your sliding ankle. To do this your ball has to swing under your head going back and forward especially. If the ball is a foot or more away from your ankle then that is going to kill revs you want. The only thing with trying to keep the swing near your ankle is the thought of hitting your ankle on the forward swing. If you swing right the weight of the ball will make your swing stay far enough away from your ankle so it don't hit it. Don't let your wrist break backwards on your forward swing unless you want to lose revs. Good luck.

[zdawg]

So it looks like the coaching session the other day is already paying dividends, prior to tonight I had thrown one clean game and a high score of 200. Tonight I threw my second clean game for a 205, and then strung along a bunch of strikes for my best game ever....232 :cool:

I realize I still have a lot to learn, but fixing this problem that has kept me in a slump for a month (which is 1/3 of my entire bowling career LOL) and keeping at it has shown me there is a light at the end of the tunnel

[tr33frog]

Nice work zdawg!

Hammer - Nice write up, gives me something to think about.

[zdawg]

The other thing to make sure you get good revs at release is to swing your ball close to your sliding ankle. To do this your ball has to swing under your head going back and forward especially. If the ball is a foot or more away from your ankle then that is going to kill revs you want.

Thanks for the tip, this is one of those things I've read about, and seen on video obviously, but haven't consciously tried adding to my game yet. I think next week I'll start working on this and take some new video, since I've never thought about it on the lane I'm curious to see how close I am to my ankle currently, and I'll go from there.

[Bunny]

So it looks like the coaching session the other day is already paying dividends, prior to tonight I had thrown one clean game and a high score of 200. Tonight I threw my second clean game for a 205, and then strung along a bunch of strikes for my best game ever....232 :cool:

I realize I still have a lot to learn, but fixing this problem that has kept me in a slump for a month (which is 1/3 of my entire bowling career LOL) and keeping at it has shown me there is a light at the end of the tunnel


That's awesome zdawg!! Glad the lessons with Mark are paying off. You're way ahead of the curve! :p

And since you're just starting out you're only going to keep getting better!!

Good Bowling!!

[dnhoffman]

Congrats man