Language of the Pins:

[Geneo2u]

Has anyone seen this youtube? do we agree or disagree with his moves?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdhpt8Mp-c&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLD4FB73779357D784

[dnhoffman]

Yes, and his bowling ball reviews are still the only staffer videos that I think are worth a darn. I subscribe...

[vdubtx]

Yes, very good series of videos. I actually picked up some of the moves based on his videos and they have benefited me and my average. :D :cool:

I subscribe to his videos.

[Aslan]

I watched the link. I'm not super surprised that a ball rep would recommend making ball changes.

Hard to tell from the video though. He said "move right" but I can't tell how much he moved right.

I'd have stayed. And, he's right, I'd have probably been left with that same spare. But if I were to move right…I'd move my feet AND my target. It seems like he just moved his feet. If you were going to "only" move your feet…wouldn't you just shade a bit to the "left"…maybe slow the ball down a tad or add a little more revs to it?? I'm not understanding just moving right and using the same target.

[the_grimace]

I feel this is all too circumstantial. It depends so much on the bowler, the ball, the lanes, the oil pattern, the center, etc. There is no one right "change" to make. For example, he recommends a ball change in this video, but no reason a bowler couldn't make a variety of changes that would work still using the first ball. Slowing down ball speed or increasing revs are both possible easy fixes to implement in this example, a lot more he can do as well.

[Aslan]

I feel this is all too circumstantial. It depends so much on the bowler, the ball, the lanes, the oil pattern, the center, etc. There is no one right "change" to make. For example, he recommends a ball change in this video, but no reason a bowler couldn't make a variety of changes that would work still using the first ball. Slowing down ball speed or increasing revs are both possible easy fixes to implement in this example, a lot more he can do as well.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk143/faeini1/applause-funny-animated-gifs_200907.gif

[MICHAEL]

They say that bowlers that practice with the WII bowling, actually increase their REAL bowling average by 10.3 pins!
Are you going to purchase that Bowling enhancing WII game from Diane?? :rolleyes:

[josheaton16]

You guys are missing the point. The whole thing is to throw the exact same shot everytime. Once you start changing speed, revs, etc there is a lot more that can mess up. So in that situation while yes you don't necessarily need to change balls, that is probably the best option.

[tccstudent]

They say that bowlers that practice with the WII bowling, actually increase their REAL bowling average by 10.3 pins!
Are you going to purchase that Bowling enhancing WII game from Diane?? :rolleyes:

Im gonna call BS on that I have played that game and if i try and throw the ball like i would a real bowling ball the ball i will be in the gutter every time

[Aslan]

You guys are missing the point. The whole thing is to throw the exact same shot everytime. Once you start changing speed, revs, etc there is a lot more that can mess up. So in that situation while yes you don't necessarily need to change balls, that is probably the best option.

So in the 60s-late 70s…I guess those bowlers just didn't "get it". And when pros talk about moving vertically or changing speeds…they're just not that informed? One video out there said you should have 3 balls, 3 speeds, and 3 spots to play (inside, middle, high track/outside). Yes…3 "speeds".

Again…not saying having 2-3…maybe even 4 balls isn't a good idea in this day and age of massive hooks. But with practice, you can make a ball do whatever you want it to do. I throw 1 ball at my center…I can make it go straight…I can make it hook moderately…I can get it to go from gutter to gutter. Not by changing my whole approach or timing or throwing style. Just simple little adjustments in backswing and speed and where in the pendulum swing I release it. I have another ball that I use at other centers. Only because in very heavy oil…I have to slow things down a little "too much" to make it break into the pocket.

Oh well…dead horse.

[Geneo2u]

They say that bowlers that practice with the WII bowling, actually increase their REAL bowling average by 10.3 pins!
Are you going to purchase that Bowling enhancing WII game from Diane?? :rolleyes:

10.3, u just made that up... didn't you?

[josheaton16]

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I agree that being able to change hand positions, speed, revs, etc is a good thing to know, and do, if you can consistently throw a good shot that way. But the average bowler is probably going to hurt their game more than anything else by doing that. So in that case, if the goal was to be able to throw the exact same shot he wasn't wrong on changing balls.

[Aslan]

Bowling is a combination of balls and lanes and technique. It's that simple.

I feel like many pros, ball reps, and the like seem to "minimize" technique by hinting that a new ball or a larger ARSEnal will make you a better bowler. If it was that simple…anyone with $200 would immediately be better. And thats not the case. Bowl et al will claim "thats not what they're saying"…but it sort of is. Or at least, they're being intentionally obtuse.

The funny thing (ironic thing) is…the balls have made more balls necessary. By having balls that hook SO much…you've created a "need" where one previously did not exist. It would be like a car company making a car that didn't work on dirt roads so that you'd need to buy one car for dirt roads and one for paved roads. You never "needed" more than 1-2 balls in the old days. You threw straight. Balls went relatively straight. Then…ball manufacturers realized something…if you could get them to hook more drastically into the pocket…you could increase your strike rate. And if you could make the BALLS do it easier…it wouldn't take a "cranker" to get that angle. And…as a side benefit…people would buy more balls…because sometimes they wouldn't need that hook…or it would be too much hook. You'd need a "spare" ball. And a "medium" ball. And a "medium/medium" ball. Etc…

But…it's all good. It's interesting. I still preach technique. I think the answer is in the technique. I still think Walter Ray with a house ball could beat me. I don't want to think that bowling has devolved into an "equipment war". I saw that happen to paintball…and it was kinda fun at times…but ultimately was more bad than good…in my opinion.

[Blacksox1]

Thanks to the OP. I liked the videos and may have picked up a tip ! Good post and repped !

[the_grimace]

Im gonna call BS on that I have played that game and if i try and throw the ball like i would a real bowling ball the ball i will be in the gutter every time

A ball change is usually one of my last resorts, especially if I'm bowling in a series or game where it matters if I win or lose! Making a ball change mid game is a scary thing, and it's hard to tell how that ball will react. Even if you watch the pros on TV, when they aren't getting optimal ball reaction you'll see them make adjustments first to their speed, revs, line, etc. If all else fails, you'll see a ball change in the 5th frame or so after all else has failed. That's the same approach I would take, adjustments first, then the ball change because I don't have a fresh look at the line of that new ball and until I throw it I can only GUESS what it will react like. That guess could be a disaster if the ball change goes light or high and leaves a split mid game as well.

All and all, I'm not fond of changing balls unless I get at least one or two shots of practice. Sometimes if I'm bowling a series with no breaks, I'll use opportunities such as the last shot of the last frame to throw a new ball. Or if it's match play and I have my guy shut out, I might get a few frames to practice a ball change in prep for the next game.

[Aslan]

I agree Grimace. I've made ball changes (rarely) during games. And with me being a beginner/early intermediate bowler…it takes me 4-5 frames just to figure out what board I should be starting on and what target I should be aiming at.

Thats actually one of my biggest fears on league night…that I won't get enough practice shots in on the fresh oil to know where to start.

[tccstudent]

A ball change is usually one of my last resorts, especially if I'm bowling in a series or game where it matters if I win or lose! Making a ball change mid game is a scary thing, and it's hard to tell how that ball will react. Even if you watch the pros on TV, when they aren't getting optimal ball reaction you'll see them make adjustments first to their speed, revs, line, etc. If all else fails, you'll see a ball change in the 5th frame or so after all else has failed. That's the same approach I would take, adjustments first, then the ball change because I don't have a fresh look at the line of that new ball and until I throw it I can only GUESS what it will react like. That guess could be a disaster if the ball change goes light or high and leaves a split mid game as well.

All and all, I'm not fond of changing balls unless I get at least one or two shots of practice. Sometimes if I'm bowling a series with no breaks, I'll use opportunities such as the last shot of the last frame to throw a new ball. Or if it's match play and I have my guy shut out, I might get a few frames to practice a ball change in prep for the next game.
First I dont get why you quoted me when I was responding to a post about the WII video game.
A ball change does not need to be a last resort. You just need to be very familar with what is in your bag. It is better to drop down to a weaker ball then make adjustments if it means you can still play your A game.

[Hampe]

I thought it was a pretty cool video series. I think all but one of the corrections was what I would have done in that situation as well.

I used to be the same way (changing balls only as last resort), but after getting more and more experience and confidence in reading the lane and making adjustments, it's something I've gotten comfortable doing even during the middle of an important game. But it's like I've said before, it's not just about changing balls for the sake of it, you should know WHY you are changing balls and what advantage you are gaining by changing.

[bowl1820]

Bowling is a combination of balls and lanes and technique. It's that simple.
That's true enough.


I feel like many pros, ball reps, and the like seem to "minimize" technique by hinting that a new ball or a larger ARSEnal will make you a better bowler.
It's not that they trying to "minimize" technique, it's about matching up to conditions to get the optimum performance. As they say "You can't out bowl a bad ball reaction"


If it was that simple…anyone with $200 would immediately be better. And thats not the case.
Yes, a ball in of itself won't make you a more skilled bowler. But with the right ball in hand for the conditions, you can score better.


Bowl et al will claim "thats not what they're saying"…but it sort of is. Or at least, they're being intentionally obtuse.

When I said "thats not what they're saying" it's about you saying that the reps/pros are saying all bowlers need to wheel in dozens of balls to bowl and adjust to every little change.

You take things out of context and to extremes, Someone says to make a ball change for a certain situation and you take it the extreme "Oh they are saying you need a different ball for every single frame."

When you say the pros on tv only have a couple of balls out there, you didn't see what all they used to get there and on different conditions those won't be the same balls used again.


The funny thing (ironic thing) is…the balls have made more balls necessary. By having balls that hook SO much…you've created a "need" where one previously did not exist. It would be like a car company making a car that didn't work on dirt roads so that you'd need to buy one car for dirt roads and one for paved roads.
Just because because you can drive a car down a dirt road, doesn't mean that's what it was designed for.

Let's look at tires (ball coverstocks are often compared to tires) you have tires for wet roads, dry roads, roads with ice, dirt roads, off road, racing slicks, tires for different temperatures etc. etc.

Why do they make so many different ones? To match up to conditions to get the optimum performance.

Using your reasoning a skilled NASCAR or Formula One driver wouldn't need special tires he could just put some on from walmarts and he wouldn't need to change them during the race, he would just change speed and drive on a different part of the track.

The same thing is true for bowling balls just because you can roll a polyester ball down a lane conditioned with heavy oil, doesn't mean that's what it's designed for and it will work at its best all the time just because your a good bowler.



You never "needed" more than 1-2 balls in the old days. You threw straight. Balls went relatively straight.
It's not 50 years ago, Get over it.


Then…ball manufacturers realized something…if you could get them to hook more drastically into the pocket…you could increase your strike rate.And if you could make the BALLS do it easier…it wouldn't take a "cranker" to get that angle.
To a extent true.


And…as a side benefit…people would buy more balls…because sometimes they wouldn't need that hook…or it would be too much hook. You'd need a "spare" ball. And a "medium" ball. And a "medium/medium" ball. Etc…
That is not exactly the reason why the balls were made in the first place.

Resin balls were designed (after talking with the pros) for the Pro's back when they first came out, Resin was to give the pro's those one or two extra strikes the Pro's felt would make the difference in winning. And they figured only the Pro's and some high level amateurs would buy them because of the high price.

And what happened was the regular league bowler saw them being used in league by the pros and/or got to try them. They found that they when they used those balls, their scores and averages went up 10-20-30 pins just by using those balls.

So they started buying them, the manufacturers said "hey everyone wants these hook in a box balls so we'll make them." Then as a consequence of the new balls, they started changing the conditions. Then new lane types came out which changed the conditions more.

The manufacturers didn't create the market for the balls, the bowlers did that's how we got to where we are now. Where matching up to conditions with balls is just as important improving levels of skill.


But…it's all good. It's interesting. I still preach technique. I think the answer is in the technique. I still think Walter Ray with a house ball could beat me. I don't want to think that bowling has devolved into an "equipment war". I saw that happen to paintball…and it was kinda fun at times…but ultimately was more bad than good…in my opinion.

Yes,Skill, Technique are important and bowlers should work at improving their skills and becoming better bowlers.

But using the right equipment to match up to conditions to get the optimum performance is important too.

If all you want to do is bowl one house, one or two nights a week, have fun and drink beer (which is fine). One or Two balls is plenty.

But if you want to compete at a higher level, in different house, tournaments etc. there's more to it than just one ball and moving back and forth on the lane.

[Aslan]

I used to be the same way (changing balls only as last resort), but after getting more and more experience and confidence in reading the lane and making adjustments, it's something I've gotten comfortable doing even during the middle of an important game. But it's like I've said before, it's not just about changing balls for the sake of it, you should know WHY you are changing balls and what advantage you are gaining by changing.

I watched a great deal of the fusionrealtors 2013 tournament online over the holidays and watched guys switch balls. It was actually funny because I'd say 90% or more of them that decided to switch balls immediately shot an 8 /. Some of them were hitting the pocket fine...then decided to make a ball change... 8 /. And these are GOOD bowlers...guys that are amateur hall of famers and bowlers that work for the ball companies.

It was kinda've a long tournament...they pretty much covered it beginning to end so you're talking 9 hours of qualifying and then 3 hours of cashing round and then another over 2 hours of stepladder finals. I was kinda bored so I just cheered against anyone throwing 2-handed (there were only a couple that did) and anyone that made 1 or more ball changes. And I also cheered against anyone that was too "full of themselves" (like Jeff Richgel) or anyone with an overly "funky" delivery. One guy did some weird "holding the ball in front of him/circular motion" which was distracting as hell. I tried cheering FOR anyone that had at least a little loft...kinda like how I throw it. I wanted to watch them carefully to see how far they are actually lofting it and how it was working/not working.

[Aslan]

Let's look at tires (ball coverstocks are often compared to tires) you have tires for wet roads, dry roads, roads with ice, dirt roads, off road, racing slicks, tires for different temperatures etc. etc.

Why do they make so many different ones? To match up to conditions to get the optimum performance.

Using your reasoning a skilled NASCAR or Formula One driver wouldn't need special tires he could just put some on from walmarts and he wouldn't need to change them during the race, he would just change speed and drive on a different part of the track.

To be fair...thats "taking it to an extreme" (Formula 1 racing) in a manner WAY more than I EVER have!

You wanna talk tires? How many people buy snow tires? How many switch their tires from snow to regular over the course of a year? Now...lets say...high, high, high end estimate...in the US (not Canada)...13%. Mostly extreme North. Of those...how many have different tires for fall, spring, and summer? Virtually ZERO. Maybe 0.2% super high estimate.

Why? Because most "All-Season radials" work FINE....FINE. There's really NO NEED to own 4 different tires.

By that arguement...you're making my case FOR ME! (thanks) Just as many people that need a tire for every season (Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer) need more than 1-4 bowling balls. I'm NOT saying there isn't a "need". But like you said, it's a need for those elite players that play in tournaments and in a different center every other week. Guys that play in ONE center 97% of the time...and are too scared to play sport shots or tournaments yet for some reason feel they need a 9-ball roller...it's just dumb. More power to em if they're a "collector" (like me). But this concept that "if you miss the pocket, you need a different ball" is ABSURD. And you know that. You and I are actually AGREEING here. Ball changes should be something you do if you just can't get your ball to hit the pocket the right way. Or maybe, your ball is too strong...you've moved all the way left...time for a different ball. I GET that. But I've seen low level intermediate or advanced beginners make 2-3 ball changes on a THS over the course of ONE SERIES....for NO reason other than they can't seem to hit the pocket....because they can't consistently hit their mark. Thats just bad technique.

Take me for example...so not to get "extreme". Lets say I want to use my Rhythm on low oil or wood lanes. Lets say the Frantic broke in half or something (Noooo!). Now...lets say I'm struggling to keep it right of the headpin. Rob Mautner would say, "You can't out bowl a bad ball reaction." But...I CAN! I release slightly later...the ball lofts over the heads...hits the pocket. Same example...except with the Frantic on Heavy oil. Lets say the Rhythm is broke in half (Nooooo!) and I gotta use the Frantic on heavy oil. I struggle getting the Frantic to cut into the pocket. Rob Maunter..."Can't out bowl a bad ball reaction."

Now...in THIS case....I'm more inclined to agree. It's a low-moderate oil ball and I'm using it essentially for something it's not designed for. But...for the sake of the discussion...CAN I make it work? Yup. I slow it down from 17mph to 14mph...play 2 boards inside of my usual target...it hits the pocket. Not "ideal"...a straighter shot so I'm possibly going to have to deal with splits...lose a little margin for error...but I CAN out bowl a bad ball reaction. And if I CAN...and I suck...then all you great/excellent/semi pros should be able to EASILY out bowl a bad ball reaction.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I think it's a very interesting topic/conversation. I'm just speaking from MY experience(s) where I HAVE out bowled a bad ball reaction. So it's not impossible. And the PBA pros have shown that when they go out there with plastic balls and can out bowl most of us. Or when they make slight adjustments to their swing/footwork rather than switching balls.

I AGREE...there is a need nowadays for more than one ball. I don't LIKE it...but my time machine isn't ready yet...so I'll deal with it. But I feel that NEED was created by balls that hook more...thus making them not as useable (if thats a word) on all lane conditions. So, in that regard...the ball companies kinda created the need. Just like a tire company that sells super smooth tires and knobby tires...will CREATE THE NEED to have both.

In the words of Walter Sobchak: "Am I wrong? AM I wrong?"

[bowl1820]

To be fair...thats "taking it to an extreme" (Formula 1 racing) in a manner WAY more than I EVER have!
And of course you missed the entire point of the comparison about matching to the conditions to improve performance.

Your "All-Season radials" comparison is fine for conditions that don't vary too radically and you don't mind just average or sub standard performance when it gets tough.

In bowling that's the bowler who only bowls in one house and goes to the nationals and can't understand why his ball doesn't work, because he thinks that one ball would work everywhere on any condition.


Ball changes should be something you do if you just can't get your ball to hit the pocket the right way.
That's true enough, something is not working and you can't get your ball to hit the pocket the right way you make a change.


But I've seen low level intermediate or advanced beginners make 2-3 ball changes on a THS over the course of ONE SERIES....for NO reason other than they can't seem to hit the pocket....because they can't consistently hit their mark. Thats just bad technique.
True enough, I've seen that myself.

A big part of it is bad technique, they need to work on the fundamentals and practice more.

Also another big problem is they don't know their equipment and when and how to utilize it correctly.

But that doesn't make the basic premise of making a adjustments with a ball change invalid.



Now...in THIS case....I'm more inclined to agree. It's a low-moderate oil ball and I'm using it essentially for something it's not designed for. But...for the sake of the discussion...CAN I make it work? Yup. I slow it down from 17mph to 14mph...play 2 boards inside of my usual target...it hits the pocket. Not "ideal"...a straighter shot so I'm possibly going to have to deal with splits...lose a little margin for error...but I CAN out bowl a bad ball reaction. And if I CAN...and I suck...then all you great/excellent/semi pros should be able to EASILY out bowl a bad ball reaction.

"Not "ideal"...a straighter shot so I'm possibly going to have to deal with splits...lose a little margin for error...but I CAN out bowl a bad ball reaction."

Just how did you out bowl a bad reaction?

You moved, changed speeds in the first place because your leaving splits, corner pins, missing the headpin whatever. If your still leaving splits, corner pins, washouts whatever after doing that, then you haven't out bowled anything.

Just because someone can move and change release, speed and can get a ball to hit the pocket, doesn't mean you out bowled a bad reaction if it hasn't improved anything..

But after all is said and done, if using just one ball and moving works for you fine do it.

here read this one again.
http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15859-Playing-Your-quot-A-quot-Game-by-Rob-Mautner

[vdubtx]

True enough, I've seen that myself.

A big part of it is bad technique, they need to work on the fundamentals and practice more.

Also another big problem is they don't know their equipment and when and how to utilize it correctly.

But that doesn't make the basic premise of making a adjustments with a ball change invalid.

Totally agree here. Last Thursday I was battling bad ball reaction in game 3 after shooting 267-246 in games 1&2. Started with same ball I used in those games and the ball just didn't finish like it was, changed to a bit more aggressive ball which also did not finish the way expected. Finally after 6 frames, I changed to my weaker ball and played outside and finally had good reaction and ran off the next 5 strikes.

Has been quite some time since I had to actually break out 3 different balls in a 3 game set. Typically get by with just 1, 2 at most depending on who else we are bowling that night.

[swingset]

I feel this is all too circumstantial. It depends so much on the bowler, the ball, the lanes, the oil pattern, the center, etc. There is no one right "change" to make. For example, he recommends a ball change in this video, but no reason a bowler couldn't make a variety of changes that would work still using the first ball. Slowing down ball speed or increasing revs are both possible easy fixes to implement in this example, a lot more he can do as well.

Huge +1 to this.

I appreciate what he's trying to do with these videos, but they miss the mark (pun intended). After the first adjustment, ball change, he says 7 shots and the lane is transitioning and leaves a 10. Choose "stay put" (based on his statement that a lane change is occurring) and he informs you that his prior shot was just bad...which it was. So what's he teaching here? First that his choices are false, but second that hitting your breakpoint is often the most crucial step in understanding the lane before attempting ANY adjustment yet he never makes that point to the viewer.

And, his choices are totally subjective.

[dnhoffman]

The amount of self-taught pro bowlers posting here never ceases to amaze.

Don't listen to the guy who made the video, everyone here is obviously a better bowler than Sk8... the Storm staffer....who also works in a pro shop and makes excellent videos on all sorts of bowling related topics. Blow it off, stay under 180 forever, with never a clue why.

[Aslan]

The amount of self-taught pro bowlers posting here never ceases to amaze.

Don't listen to the guy who made the video, everyone here is obviously a better bowler than Sk8... the Storm staffer....who also works in a pro shop and makes excellent videos on all sorts of bowling related topics. Blow it off, stay under 180 forever, with never a clue why.

Even though Hoff can't see my response because I'm on perpetual ignore status…I will say that while I agree with his premise to an extent…bowling has many "experts". And since all of them don't always agree…one must decide at the end of the day which path they want to follow. The PBA Guide to Better Bowling doesn't mention 2-handed bowling once. Yet…some folks have decided to take that approach. I'm sure many many coaches would prefer that a beginner bowler learn a 1-handed approach. Some coaches would prefer to teach 2-handed. Most coaches preach a 4-step approach. Yet many players modify that and use a 5-6-7 step approach.

The point/bottom line my friends is…in bowling, in this day and age where nearly anyone can average 160-190 in less than one year after starting out…EVERYONE is an expert. The guys in the league that roll scores like Iceman…the guy who owns the pro shop and has been bowling for 25 years…your grandpa who once bowled against Bob Strampe…the retired pro that teaches a clinic…and yes, even the multitude of internet experts and ball reps. And unfortunately…that leads to comments like what DHoff had to say…that HIS expert knows more than YOUR expert….and the battle begins.

Thats why I listen to many, many, many experts. I take a little from each. If I hit a wall, I follow a different path. I've never met ONE bowler I agree with 100%. Even one of my 2 favorite bowlers, Parker Bohn…in one of his instructional videos he talks about the importance of a spare ball (in an obvious attempt to sell a Brunswick Vis-a-ball). Does that mean I don't think Parker Bohn is great? HELL NO! That guy is as good as any bowler out there with the exception of Walter Ray. But that doesn't mean I start from square one and learn to bowl left handed because Parker Bohn bowls left handed.

In bowling….there is more than one yellow brick road leading to the Emerald City. Take the road that best suits you…and don't be too proud to turn around and take another if need be.

[dpatrickv]

I drive a RWD sports car that I drive year around. I have tires specifically for warm weather and then use snow tires in the winter.


Would all seasons work? Sure...but not nearly as well as dedicated summer/winter tires. I have owned snow tires for every one of my vehicles for the last 10 years.

Either way, I am in agreeance with bowl1820 here. There very much is a thing about matching equipment to conditions. Personally, I carry three balls around, a dry-medium oil ball, a heavy oil ball and a plastic spare ball. If I were to pull either of my heavy oil balls out(Black Widow venom/ dv8 HRT)out on a medium to dry lane, there is no way I would be able to keep them in the 1/3 pocket.

[Bunny]

The amount of self-taught pro bowlers posting here never ceases to amaze.

Don't listen to the guy who made the video, everyone here is obviously a better bowler than Sk8... the Storm staffer....who also works in a pro shop and makes excellent videos on all sorts of bowling related topics. Blow it off, stay under 180 forever, with never a clue why.


A little sarcasm with your dinner? Too funny! :p

I enjoy Sk8's videos. They are very thoughtful and well produced.

The kid knows his $#it. At the very least his videos really make you think about and look closely at ball reaction.

[tccstudent]

The one thing I like about these videos is he is playing what I consider my A game that is the line I try and throw. I think I have more hand then him and I have alot more speed then him but from watching these videos he looks pretty similar in style to me. I am gonna have to start keeping an eye on his videos.
I like they way you had options to choose from after each segment to see what would happen.

[dnhoffman]

A little sarcasm with your dinner? Too funny! :p

I enjoy Sk8's videos. They are very thoughtful and well produced.

The kid knows his $#it. At the very least his videos really make you think about and look closely at ball reaction.

Ya I get cheeky sometimes I know, but you have to admit its a bit hilarious that some posters here, when seeing something from a pro intended to help beginners grow that they may not agree with or understand don't say to themselves "not for me" or "I don't understand that, can someone explain how it's relevant?" But instead, argue that the people who are consistently scoring better than them and have more experience must be wrong. It's baffling.

[Aslan]

but you have to admit its a bit hilarious that some posters here, when seeing something from a pro intended to help beginners grow that they may not agree with or understand don't say to themselves "not for me"

I agree. Kinda like when someone can't stand a certain person on a forum and disagrees with everything (including their very existence) yet MUST comment with a snarky response EVERY time that person posts.

I think some people, and I'll admit being guilty of it as well from time to time, just don't have that ability to pass by a thread they disagree with or a person they disagree with and say to themselves, "Oh well. To each their own." Maybe that would be a good New Year's resolution or something.

[J Anderson]

Ya I get cheeky sometimes I know, but you have to admit its a bit hilarious that some posters here, when seeing something from a pro intended to help beginners grow that they may not agree with or understand don't say to themselves "not for me" or "I don't understand that, can someone explain how it's relevant?" But instead, argue that the people who are consistently scoring better than them and have more experience must be wrong. It's baffling.

What bothered me about the video was after making the ball change and fast forwarding through a bunch of strikes, he leaves a ten pin and gives the options of move left / move right / stay put. The correct answer turns out to be stay put and only then does he say that he missed the intended break point on the previous shot. Definitely a trick question in my book.

[dnhoffman]

Bunny tell your buddy he's on my IL :)

[Geneo2u]

I think doing this video at the Kegel bowling center and getting his stats on every shot would be helpful, yes i see he moved 2 boards but did the ball go down the lane 2 mile an hour faster, or some other difference.. its all subjective i suppose, but does make you think.

[swingset]

The amount of self-taught pro bowlers posting here never ceases to amaze.

Don't listen to the guy who made the video, everyone here is obviously a better bowler than Sk8... the Storm staffer....who also works in a pro shop and makes excellent videos on all sorts of bowling related topics. Blow it off, stay under 180 forever, with never a clue why.

What does it say that a bunch of us noticed a glaring flaw in his lesson? Even people on the youtube comments section noticed it?

We get his lesson, but it's put together poorly and represents a lost opportunity to teach that adjustments are subjective. He teaches as if HIS choices are then YOUR choices, and this is poor coaching. He makes good points, but they may not work for everyone and he fails to explain this or explain why.

I've been a coach in other sports for 30 years, and I know first hand that if you don't teach why/how from the player's perspective (and his game), you're not teaching correctly.

We're listening to the guy who made the video, but it doesn't make him right. You have to be right to be right, not just have some credentials.

[dnhoffman]

He's right.

[Perrin]

He's right.

On that pair, with that oil, with his specs, those balls, drilled with those layouts. yep what he showed worked.

and no question some of the things he is saying is 100% right (watching what the ball does and where it does it as far as path, breakpoint, and moving through the pindeck)

but as for the specific adjustments they may not work exactly the same for everyone. But they do make good baselines....

[swingset]

He's right.

About what? His adjustments that work for him? He sure is.

He made a fundamental error in logic in that lesson, and most of us can see it. He also over simplified adjustments which may be confusing or flat wrong for a different player in differing conditions, without communicating this. Most of us see that too.

Sorry if I'm impugning someone you're having a bromance with, but the man missed the bullseye on this lesson.

[tccstudent]

I think that those videos were interesting in that they put the viewer in the position to make choices and not just sit and watch. As far as over simplifying adjustments what do you expect from 1 min video segments.I think these videos are a good starting point to understanding different adjustments.

[Aslan]

Sorry if I'm impugning someone you're having a bromance with, but the man missed the bullseye on this lesson.

That word makes me laugh. Well played.

[zdawg]

I think that those videos were interesting in that they put the viewer in the position to make choices and not just sit and watch. As far as over simplifying adjustments what do you expect from 1 min video segments.I think these videos are a good starting point to understanding different adjustments.

That's what I got out of it, and being a complete beginner I felt some of it helpful. The advice for a ball switch fell mostly on deaf ears as I currently only have one ball (although my second is on the way), but it will be a while until I'm good enough or compete at a high enough level (tourneys, multiple leagues/houses, etc.) to consider having 4,5, 6 balls+ so I just kinda ignored that part for now.

[swingset]

I think that those videos were interesting in that they put the viewer in the position to make choices and not just sit and watch. As far as over simplifying adjustments what do you expect from 1 min video segments.I think these videos are a good starting point to understanding different adjustments.

What do I expect? I expect a teacher who is oversimplifying to qualify his statements PRECISELY with this information so that the student is aware of it.

I teach marksmanship at the high school and collegiate level, I coach and teach perishable physical and mental skills very much like bowling. I'm not at all ignorant of what he is trying to do and what he's actually done.

He has at his disposal the means to make a longer video should he wish, or if he's going to make his lessons short then preface them with an explanation that his adjustments are subjective to his game and the conditions and equipment he's using, or heck put that in the comment section. The videos have some good lessons, and could be helpful...they for sure are something to consider. More like a "things to think about or try" rather than "what's the correct answer here?". Because his answers leave so much more to the equation. That's over simplifying and that will get a student in worse trouble, if he doesn't understand the nuances of the adjustment....or that in some cases they might not apply to him.

My real beef was throwing a crap shot and then using an adjustment as a "what to do next" option...that was just silly.

Standing in his position, on that lane, with a REAL view of what the ball did, I think most of us would instinctively know that not missing was the correct adjustment and it turns out that no matter what option someone clicked there they were wrong - and he was wrong in framing the question and giving what amounted to false choices. Nothing wrong with throwing a bad shot, btw, he could have said "Here I just threw wide a bit and I've been on the same mark for a while...what should I do?"

And, that honestly IS a good lesson to impart and he failed to impart it. Instead he asked a flawed question.

[Aslan]

My frustration wasn't so much with the video itself. I understood what he was saying. I think thats probably the hardest thing in bowling is to know when to change something AHEAD of making a bad shot. It's what makes 300 games so special.

What I found frustrating was the overwhelming attack mentality against those that had a slightly different opinion. Some have the mindset that because THIS guy has a higher average than THAT guy...then THIS guy can do no wrong and you need to do everything he says and if you so much as question it...you're "uncoachable" and doomed to never be a good bowler.

Yet THIS guy....is he the best jr bowler out there? Best collegiate bowler? Best amateur bowler? Best PBA bowler? Best PBA HOF bowler? At what point do we find a bowler with a slightly better average or resume that might slightly disagree...and suddenly abandon THIS bowler....because the slightly better bowler thinks differently?

It's sad...because if some guy with a 176 average says he doesn't use a spare ball...he gets told he's a worthless, helpless, soul-less monster with a cement block head. Yet I GUARANTEE if Norm Duke came in and said, "Yeah...I agree...I don't think it's "necessary". To each their own."...nobody....NOBODY in this forum would say "boo". Not ONE person would make the arguement that 99.7% of bowlers use one...not ONE person would make the technical arguements. Because he's Norm friggin Duke and he's "earned his right to be different".

And I GET that....I do. You want respect...go EARN it. But sometimes it gets just a little too hostile when really at the end of the day...folks....we're just talkin bowlin...we're just shootin the breeze about a GAME. Come on...it doesn't need to get hostile or snippy or rude. As the Dude himself said, "well...opinions vary man."