Making Effective Ball Change Adjustments (LINK) [Archive]

Aslan

01-07-2014, 04:36 PM

What was the phrase DHoff suggested for 2014? "not for me."

From the article;
The list varies from bowler to bowler. Some can make minor speed adjustments easily, while others can make slight hand position or loft adjustments without totally abandoning their A games.
I agree. Personally, I find making slight adjustments to loft or speed do well for me. So, nice read, something to think about, but "not for me".

One last point, before we conclude this discussion is, how do you know when it is time to change balls? The answer here is pretty simple, if you have any clue that you should change, do it!
Kinda disagree with that if you're talking a beginning bowler. I think a beginning bowler may misinterpret that a little and make ball changes almost on a whim. Sometimes I change my "spot" (starting) after a shot that doesn't hit where I want it to. But sometimes I wait 2-3 frames to make sure it wasn't a beginner"ish" issue where maybe I laid it down flat or held on too long or maybe my shoulders weren't exactly parallel.

Here’s a news flash: there are four boards between the second arrow and the third arrow, and all are available as targets. Ideally, you should target a board
Definitely agree with this. So many beginners target either the 2nd or 3rd arrow. Targeting dots or boards can add so many possibilities to your game.

I'm gonna have to check out some of his other articles. With the recent "barrage" it makes me think this guy is only focused on "ball changes" but I noticed elsewhere on the webpage he has some other articles on there as well. So I'll check those out. Hopefully it's not all "ball changes" because some of his points are kinda interesting.

J Anderson

01-07-2014, 06:24 PM

What was the phrase DHoff suggested for 2014? "not for me."

From the article;
One last point, before we conclude this discussion is, how do you know when it is time to change balls? The answer here is pretty simple, if you have any clue that you should change, do it!
Kinda disagree with that if you're talking a beginning bowler. I think a beginning bowler may misinterpret that a little and make ball changes almost on a whim. Sometimes I change my "spot" (starting) after a shot that doesn't hit where I want it to. But sometimes I wait 2-3 frames to make sure it wasn't a beginner"ish" issue where maybe I laid it down flat or held on too long or maybe my shoulders weren't exactly parallel.

Here’s a news flash: there are four boards between the second arrow and the third arrow, and all are available as targets. Ideally, you should target a board
Definitely agree with this. So many beginners target either the 2nd or 3rd arrow. Targeting dots or boards can add so many possibilities to your game.

If you are a beginning bowler, this article is not really meant for you. A beginner is going to have one ball, well maybe two, and should be primarily concerned with developing a consistent and relatively accurate delivery. Until they develop a feel for when they've thrown the ball well, there's not much use in having an arsenal or even in making adjustments.

Using the arrows makes it a lot easier for a beginner to see the target, for coaches to say "aim at that arrow there", and for a coach to see if their student has hit the target. There's nothing magic about the dots or the arrows or even the tracer boards on synthetic lanes. They are just big and easy to see. Once you start to understand the game they just become landmark making it easier to navigate the lane.

Aslan

01-07-2014, 07:17 PM

If you are a beginning bowler, this article is not really meant for you.

Maybe thats the source of the mini-frustration we've been having on this topic lately. I think the topic of "ball changes" is something very interesting and useful to a tournament bowler or even someone that bowls at multiple houses. But I see far too many beginners or even established players that never bowl outside of one center...and they are tending towards "arsenals"...many times...like the story Rob tells in the article...if you ask them why they chose to change or why they are going to ball A versus ball B...they will just respond, "well...because I missed the headpin with the other ball." To me...and I'm no expert...but isn't missing the headpin "probably" more a "technique" issue than a slight ball/lane issue? Usually?

Hell....I bowl with a guy on Fridays who rotates through 3 balls. There's no damn rhyme or reason for it. He'll throw one...then the next frame a different one...then the next frame a different one....sometimes play the whole series like that...sometimes he sticks with one for 4-6 frames. It's uncanny. Now, in his defense...he throws older balls and has a massive slow arcing hook...almost a thumbless style...but yeah...like Rob said in the article, if you're gonna make a ball change...you should know "why". You should have a good idea what every ball does differently.

I "know" what one ball does versus the other (I only carry 2)...but I consider myself too much of a beginner to mess with ball changes during a series. Like I said before, if I change a ball...it'll take me 4-5 frames just to figure out where to adjust my approach and target. I might change balls between games in a house I've never bowled in...where it's blatently obvious I have the wrong ball. And I may change from one week to another if I struggle one week and think maybe the other ball will react better. But "midgame?" Mad props to the folks like Norm Duke and those guys that can switch from ball to ball to ball and still hit that pocket without missing a step.

dnhoffman

01-07-2014, 08:41 PM

Best post I've seen so far:

This message is hidden because Aslan is on your ignore list.

Aslan

01-07-2014, 10:31 PM

Best post I've seen so far:

Seriously man…you got issues. Maybe get a little more fixated on bowling instead of stalking me online. I mean, I appreciate the attention…but you're really not my type. It's absolutely HILLARIOUS that even on IGNORE…you're continuing to try and make your little insults! I'm on IGNORE….you're essentially mocking posts you CANT EVEN SEE!!

RobLV1

01-08-2014, 08:59 AM

Making multiple ball changes is definitely not for the beginner, but for the bowler who even wants to improve and take the game seriously, it's definitely a discussion that needs to happen. It starts with a very basic understanding of the elements of bowling balls: core, cover, surface, and layout. I often see beginning bowlers who either purchase or are given a ball that is totally wrong for them. Using the wrong ball ball at the beginning stage of a bowlers career can end it quickly.

As far as high average house bowlers go, if you bowl exclusively in one center at the same time of the day or night all the time, you should be able to get by with two strike balls and a plastic spare ball. Yes, I know, many bowlers think that since they've always used their strike ball and "flattened out" the shot to pick up a ten pin, they don't use a spare ball. All I can tell you is this: 99.99% of the top bowlers in the world use plastic, and they do it for a reason - modern bowling balls hook all by themselves, and since you must cross the track area of the lane to shoot the ten pin, there is always a chance of the ball hooking more than you expect it to. The one main exception to the 99.99% is Norm Duke who uses his strike ball for all his spares. I asked him about this, and he told me that the main reason he doesn't use plastic is that he doesn't want to lug an extra ball around. When I asked him his technique for straightening out his strike ball for spares, he told me that if he's using a less aggressive ball, he backs it up by one board to straighten it out. If he's using a medium ball, he backs it up two boards, and if he's using an aggressive ball, he backs it up by three boards. If you are good enough to do that, hopefully you're already out bowling on the Pro Tour. If not, use plastic!

For those of you who insist that you can use only physical adjustments to adapt to changing lane conditions, all that I can say is that the changes in modern bowling have necessitated the use of ball changes. These changes include going from wooden lanes to synthetic lanes, from rubber and urethane balls to reactive resin balls, and from natural to synthetic lane conditioners. Just last week, I practiced on fresh oil on a pair of lanes with my wife. As a house bowler, she played the second arrow most of the time. I started standing 25, crossing the arrows at 12, to a breakpoint at 8, and by the end of the fourth game, I was standing 35, crossing the arrows at 17, to a breakpoint at 11. Now, keep in mind that I was the only one playing that line, and it still changed that radically in just four games. Imagine what happens when you have eight or ten bowlers bowling three games on the same pair. That's 24 to 30 games. If you are good enough to adjust that much with one bowling ball, then I hope you have plenty of room on your mantle for all of your PBA Tour trophies. Oh, wait a minute; the PBA pros all routinely use ball change adjustments. There's probably a good reason for this, don'tcha think?

Rob Mautner

sprocket

01-08-2014, 09:49 AM

Since when didn't you need multiple balls to compete on different conditions and different houses? I've been bowling seriously since the early 80's, and there was at least as much difference in conditions as there are today. We had SHORT OIL (not at MY house). 24 ft. I used plastic. We had first gen synthetics. Plastic or pearl urethane. We had long oil. Dull urethane. We had medium oil. Standard urethane. We also used many different layouts, some of which are no longer used.

It's all part of the "new" bowling scam: Things are different now, you need more balls than before. Nonsense. Not unless you go back to the 70's. Do we really need to talk about bowling from 40 years ago? That's not what I hate! What I hate is new resin balls that require constant maintenance, require special sanding pads, cleaners and polish, still don't last very long and then you have what appears to be unlimited layout options that requires a PHD to figure out. You've got lane machines that must cost $100,000 to gunk a mountain of oil on the lane and then clean it off again every day.

All this to mostly bowl on THS that are blocked to the hilt! You guys get that right? You are being conned to believe that it is "modern" to need all this crap to bowl on a walled up condition! It's ALL marketing to sell high end balls. THE ENTIRE PRO TOUR is marketing to sell crap.

I have LESS balls than I used to because I used to bowl tournaments but they were GREAT balls and they lasted! The Blue Hammer. The Black U-dot. The Pearl Red Hammer. The Slate U-dot. The Nail. The White Dot.

Modern game my a$$. Last time I checked there were 10 pins 60ft away that you had to hit at the right angle to knock them all down. What do I hear the commentators talking about on "Championship Bowling" from the early 60's? Hitting the pins in the right place at the right angle to knock them all down.

RobLV1

01-08-2014, 10:47 AM

Bah Humbug. I'm taking my wine U-Dot and going home!

Rob Mautner

Bunny

01-08-2014, 11:28 AM

Bah Humbug. I'm taking my wine U-Dot and going home!

Rob Mautner

Nooooo! Don't go!

We love you Rob!!! :)

Aslan

01-08-2014, 12:35 PM

As far as high average house bowlers go, if you bowl exclusively in one center at the same time of the day or night all the time, you should be able to get by with two strike balls and a plastic spare ball. Thats what I've been saying!!

Yes, I know, many bowlers think that since they've always used their strike ball and "flattened out" the shot to pick up a ten pin, they don't use a spare ball. All I can tell you is this: 99.99% of the top bowlers in the world use plastic, 99.8% of pros do lots of things. And many of them do things very differently. Thats the reason I often don't embrace the "the pros do it so should you" mantra. If I just do whatever the best bowler of the year does...I'd have to start developing a vertical backswing and then the next year switch to 2-handed. My opinion of course. [/QUOTE]

The one main exception to the 99.99% is Norm Duke who uses his strike ball for all his spares. I asked him about this, and he told me that the main reason he doesn't use plastic is that he doesn't want to lug an extra ball around. When I asked him his technique for straightening out his strike ball for spares, he told me that if he's using a less aggressive ball, he backs it up by one board to straighten it out. If he's using a medium ball, he backs it up two boards, and if he's using an aggressive ball, he backs it up by three boards. If you are good enough to do that, hopefully you're already out bowling on the Pro Tour. If not, use plastic!

Honestly...I CAN do that. But also honestly...totally NOT making room on the mantle for PBA trophies anytime soon. I just personally feel (and this is an opinion...opinions definitely vary) that especially for beginners or even lower level intermediates....there's VALUE in being able to know your ball, know the lanes, and use lateral movement to pick up spares. I admit...sometimes it's "making it harder on yourself". Absolutely. I honestly have missed more than a few spares stubbornly refusing to throw a "spare ball". And YES, on synthetic lanes when I throw my Hammer, I use the Frantic as a "back-up/spare" ball for right side leaves. Because the Rhythm's arc is too severe...and I don't "like" flattening my wrist with that ball. So I throw a lesser reactive (like what Norm Duke says). And...AND...I admit...sometimes I miss a few 10-pins and am VERY tempted to abandon the lateral movement philosophy and just start throwing cross lane. But...as I said originally...I just feel (my opinion) that for lower level bowlers there's some long term benefit in learning the basics. And it's not JUST ME being stubborn.

My first coach told me FLAT OUT...you don't need a spare ball. I personally think thats because I was a beginner throwing a lower level type of hook ball. I actually think if someone is throwing a more "big hook" ball...if not a spare ball...they at least need a "lower hook" ball to pick up spares on whatever side of the lane they are handed (right for righties, left for lefties). The "trick" (which makes Norm Duke "Norm Duke") is that for right side leaves (for a righty)...it's not "just" lateral movement. It's also a slight change in your target. And thats what causes me to be very UN-NormDukish...picking the wrong target.

I would continue on with this subject, but:
A) I've already written too much and will soon be mocked for creating an "article".
B) I actually want to start a seperate thread to comment on what I read on your website last night about "Physical Game". I had a couple questions/comments I'd be interested in getting your's and other input on.

Thanks.

Aslan

01-08-2014, 12:42 PM

Modern game my a$$. Last time I checked there were 10 pins 60ft away that you had to hit at the right angle to knock them all down. What do I hear the commentators talking about on "Championship Bowling" from the early 60's? Hitting the pins in the right place at the right angle to knock them all down.

I have to admit....sprocket may have just elevated himself into "my valentine" status. I'll digress for now...and hopefully you haven't made Rob's head explode (ya know, the guy with the website titled "Modern Bowling")...but I have to admit...when I watch the greats like D. Weber, Anthony, Salvino, etc.. I just hate to think that ball manufacturers have changed the game SO much that it's no longer a game where those great bowlers could compete. Because I'll spend hours watching old "Championship Bowling" telecasts and really have no interest in watching Terrel Owens bowl.

Bunny

01-08-2014, 01:18 PM

I thoroughly enjoy Rob's articles. My husband does as well.

Thank you for sharing your expert knowledge with us Rob!!

RobLV1

01-08-2014, 01:21 PM

Actually, it was not the ball manufacturers that changed the game, it was the bowling proprietors when they decided that they could save bunches of dollars for insurance costs by switching from wooden lanes to synthetics. Once they started bowling on sythetic lanes, the oil began to move around, and the race was on between the ball manufacturers and the proprietors. It's interesting that you mention classic bowlers like Carmen Salvino, as he was one of the founders of the modern reactive bowling ball.

As far as using plastic for spares, many long-time bowlers still advocate using their strike ball for spares. When I say that virtually all the pros use plastic, I'm not suggesting jumping on the bandwagon for the latest craze. This has been going on for years. When you consider that just picking up one additional spare per game will raise your average by 10 pins, why would you possibly not want to give yourself every advantage.

I'll tell you that personally, nothing bugs me more than missing a makeable spare. I actually joined the technology age a couple of weeks ago when my wife and I decided to buy smart phones for Christmas. One of the first things that I did was to download a bowling app and started keeping track of my scores. In the last week, I have attempted 81 single pin spares and missed 4, all ten pins, and I use plastic! This drives me absolutely nuts because my own feeling is that there is no excuse for missing a single pin spare, although I hear that even Walter Ray misses about one a year.

Gotta go bowl league. Later.

Rob Mautner

Aslan

01-08-2014, 02:03 PM

Actually, it was not the ball manufacturers that changed the game, it was the bowling proprietors when they decided that they could save bunches of dollars for insurance costs by switching from wooden lanes to synthetics. I still bowl leagues on wood...so just FYI that much of my experience is STILL on wooden lanes. Going away this year...May I think. But...just FYI.

It's interesting that you mention classic bowlers like Carmen Salvino, as he was one of the founders of the modern reactive bowling ball. One of my favs! I just wish there were more television broadcasts from back then. Limongello, Strampe, a young Billy Hardwick....I could watch those guys bowl all day!

I'll tell you that personally, nothing bugs me more than missing a makeable spare...This drives me absolutely nuts because my own feeling is that there is no excuse for missing a single pin spare, although I hear that even Walter Ray misses about one a year. Agreed. And thats a topic that came up recently when I was chatting with one of the better players in my league. I told him that one of the things I noticed about his game was he rarely missed make-able spares. So much so, that it's actually exciting when he DOES miss them. I told him that I was watching an amateur tournament on the internet over the holidays...and the BIGGEST difference I saw between that level and pros....PBA pros rarely EVER miss makeable spares...yet amateurs do miss them. It was fun watching bowlers in a tournament miss things that I would miss...made it feel "more real".

And I see what you're saying about plastic spare balls. But I see a LOT of amateurs/intermediate bowlers using plastic balls and still missing spares. I personally feel like no matter what you use to pick up a spare...no matter what your preference...you pick up more spares as you get better. Kinda a chicken/egg thing. I'll bet anyone $20 that if I bowled against Rob and he could only use his strike ball...I'd have more opens than him after a series. He's by FAR a better bowler.

I'll probably use a "back-up" ball more often once I get my 16lb Slingshot drilled to replace my 15lb Frantic. At 17-19mph lofting it over the heads...that Slingshot is gonna go as straight as a plastic ball. Right now, on synthetic lanes where I roll my Hammer Rhythm...I really only go to a "back-up" (the Frantic) for 10-pins or some spares...and then splits. I'm more comfortable throwing the Rhythm because for me to switch to a back-up....I'm also switching weights. And after throwing a 16lb ball 4 times...a 15lb ball feels like a balloon...and it sometimes causes me timing issues. Just "FYI"....that it's not me just stubbornly pretending it's 1968.

sprocket

01-08-2014, 03:08 PM

Hey Rob, just be clear I am in complete agreement that making effective ball changes is important. I just happen to think that has been the case for the last 30 years. So when I hear people saying it's not the same game any more and you can't just use one or two balls, I just think people are being led to believe that was true in the recent past. I don't think it was. My complaints about the equipment of today is what I was mostly writing about and the lane conditions that have changed with the equipment.

I wish there was a good, accurate history written on lane conditions. If my memory serves me, first generation synthetics required very little oil and plastic and pearl urethane worked very well on them. I thought the problem was that more aggressive urethane balls were stripping the oil off of them leaving nothing behind. Therefore the oil changed, then the surface to match the oil, then the oil again, then the surface again, etc. Maybe I've got it wrong because all I have is my memory to go by since I have never seen an intensive, accurate history of bowling during the last 30 years.

Hampe

01-08-2014, 05:16 PM

99.8% of pros do lots of things. And many of them do things very differently. Thats the reason I often don't embrace the "the pros do it so should you" mantra. Dude, you're totally missing the point here. Yes, the pros all do things differently.....some start with a hinge, some push out...some turn their hand out on the backswing, some don't....some have a high backswing, some have a low backswing...some have 5 step approaches, some take a different number of steps....BUT THEY ALL USE SPARE BALLS...maybe, if hundreds of pro's who can't agree on anything else can agree on one thing, maybe there's something to it then, no?

You're a bit confused about what we're telling you....Nobody's telling you "Well, Pro X won the tour last year throwing a spare ball, so we should probably all go get one" we're telling you "there is a clear advantage to having a spare ball (which you even admit yourself), which is WHY 99.9% of all the pros play with one".

Honestly...I CAN do that. But also honestly...totally NOT making room on the mantle for PBA trophies anytime soon. I just personally feel (and this is an opinion...opinions definitely vary) that especially for beginners or even lower level intermediates....there's VALUE in being able to know your ball, know the lanes, and use lateral movement to pick up spares. I admit...sometimes it's "making it harder on yourself". Absolutely. I honestly have missed more than a few spares stubbornly refusing to throw a "spare ball"
.......
My first coach told me FLAT OUT...you don't need a spare ball. I personally think thats because I was a beginner throwing a lower level type of hook ball. Lol.....you admit yourself that not having a spare ball is probably hurting your game, but you still don't "need" one. Technically, you are right.....you don't NEED a spare ball, you don't NEED to improve your average just by having a reliable ball to clean up spares with. For feck's sake man....you've got how many hundreds of dollars worth of reactive balls in your closet just sitting there! Just plunk down 40$ on a freaking plastic spare ball already! Don't waste years like I did with a entry-level reactive spare ball (just because you CAN use it for spares), the sooner you get a plastic spare ball, the sooner you will be good with it.

Also, if you're a diligent ball cleaner like me, there's one less ball to clean each time you go bowling......that's worth the 40 bucks alone if you ask me :rolleyes:

But I see a LOT of amateurs/intermediate bowlers using plastic balls and still missing spares. I personally feel like no matter what you use to pick up a spare...no matter what your preference...you pick up more spares as you get better. Kinda a chicken/egg thing. It's definitely NOT a chicken and egg thing. Nobody is saying a plastic spare ball is an automatic 100% spare conversion.....you stil have to make the shots! But you will NEVER miss a spare with a plastic ball because the ball reacted a way you weren't expecting. All you have to do is hit your mark. That's it. With a reactive spare ball, you have to hit your mark WITH the right ball speed AND the correct hand release, or the ball isn't going where you planned and you might miss the spare. THAT is why it's such an advantage. THAT is why 99% of bowlers use spare balls when there is money on the line.

vdubtx

01-08-2014, 06:26 PM

Dude, you're totally missing the point here. Yes, the pros all do things differently.....some start with a hinge, some push out...some turn their hand out on the backswing, some don't....some have a high backswing, some have a low backswing...some have 5 step approaches, some take a different number of steps....BUT THEY ALL USE SPARE BALLS...maybe, if hundreds of pro's who can't agree on anything else can agree on one thing, maybe there's something to it then, no?

You're a bit confused about what we're telling you....Nobody's telling you "Well, Pro X won the tour last year throwing a spare ball, so we should probably all go get one" we're telling you "there is a clear advantage to having a spare ball (which you even admit yourself), which is WHY 99.9% of all the pros play with one".

Lol.....you admit yourself that not having a spare ball is probably hurting your game, but you still don't "need" one. Technically, you are right.....you don't NEED a spare ball, you don't NEED to improve your average just by having a reliable ball to clean up spares with. For feck's sake man....you've got how many hundreds of dollars worth of reactive balls in your closet just sitting there! Just plunk down 40$ on a freaking plastic spare ball already! Don't waste years like I did with a entry-level reactive spare ball (just because you CAN use it for spares), the sooner you get a plastic spare ball, the sooner you will be good with it.

Also, if you're a diligent ball cleaner like me, there's one less ball to clean each time you go bowling......that's worth the 40 bucks alone if you ask me :rolleyes:

It's definitely NOT a chicken and egg thing. Nobody is saying a plastic spare ball is an automatic 100% spare conversion.....you stil have to make the shots! But you will NEVER miss a spare with a plastic ball because the ball reacted a way you weren't expecting. All you have to do is hit your mark. That's it. With a reactive spare ball, you have to hit your mark WITH the right ball speed AND the correct hand release, or the ball isn't going where you planned and you might miss the spare. THAT is why it's such an advantage. THAT is why 99% of bowlers use spare balls when there is money on the line.

"A" for effort, but it's a lost cause trying to converse with him. He's thinks he is right and will make 1000 word posts to try and make his point no matter what anyone says, even someone like Rob Mautner who is very well respected in the industry.

As the saying goes, "In one ear out the other".

http://digitalempire.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/palin3.png

Aslan

01-08-2014, 07:15 PM

"A" for effort, but it's a lost cause trying to converse with him. He's thinks he is right and will make 1000 word posts to try and make his point no matter what anyone says, even someone like Rob Mautner who is very well respected in the industry.

As the saying goes, "In one ear out the other".

Here I thought I was conceding the point that a spare ball is necessary. :confused:

Norm Duke just called and said he "technically" out ranks Rob Mautner and he doesn't throw a spare ball. Write him a letter....tell him he's never going to be a good bowler if he doesn't get with the program! ;)

Very rarely do I miss a makeable spare because the ball reacted more than I thought it would. Usually it's the opposite...I throw it expecting that "little reaction" and I simply targeted too far right. But I'm getting better!

We'll see Hampe. I appreciate you at least being "nice" in your retorts. It's kinda brutal in here when you have a dissenting opinion. But I am taking all this advice in, I really am. And you guys and Rob may be right. I might start throwing that Slingshot and think, "ya know what...this dang ball is costing me 20 friggin pins a game....I'm gonna Ebay me a plastic Columbia WD and finally give in." Might happen. I've, on rare occasions, been known to be wrong in the past. But...for now I'm feeling pretty comfortable using one ball on wood lanes and just varying speeds/releases. To each their own right?

Oh well...at least Norm Duke will still have a beer with me. : (

RobLV1

01-08-2014, 09:14 PM

What is with you guys, do you just like to argue? Personally, I don't care if you use a plastic spare ball or not. Using one will will not automatically raise your average, but it will give you a better chance of converting spares. At least on won't miss because the ball did something you weren't expecting it to do, you'll miss because you just threw it badly.

Aslan: One other point: Using balls of different weights is a really BAD idea. It messes with your timing, something that no bowler needs to do. I realize that you are very involved in the game judging by the number of posts that you have entered, but if you want to raise your average, look at what the best bowlers do. Hat's off to anyone who can invent a new clock, but Dude, learn how to tell time first!

dnhoffman

01-08-2014, 11:09 PM

Aslan

01-08-2014, 11:29 PM

Rob: Thank you for sharing and posting here. There are many members that will benefit from your contributions and are eager to listen vice argue. Please don't waste energy on our special needs cases or mistake them for the majority here.

Seriously dude…just use the ignore function as Bowl1820 asked you to. Or at least PM me and we can have it out like men. This is getting a little ridiculous.

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I do agree with DHoff that I hope Rob sticks around. I may not agree with everything he believes…but I do read his articles with great interest. Of matter of fact…I'm off to modern-bowling.com to read some more stuff right now. And I don't think Rob is the kinda guy to get scared off by disagreement. If you're an instructor and you have a firm belief in something…I'm sure he's used to defending it.

Cheers.

Aslan

01-08-2014, 11:53 PM

Aslan: One other point: Using balls of different weights is a really BAD idea. It messes with your timing, something that no bowler needs to do. I realize that you are very involved in the game judging by the number of posts that you have entered,

Thanks. Yeah, I'm using the 15lb ball on my current lane surface. But probably by March/April it'l be time to retire it. The I'll be throwing just one weight; 16lb. I agree…it isn't good for timing. I don't notice it because I usually only throw the 15lber…but the few times where I venture to other centers (synthetics) and use both…well, I know what ya mean.

And yes, I am a VERY active bowler and a VERY active participant on the boards. It's not always "fun"…and I have more than my fair share of critics…but I've learned a GREAT deal and have improved immensely over the past 5 months. 5 months ago I averaged 121 bowling about twice 6-10 games per year. Now I've participated in two leagues…have bowled about 350 games since August, got coaching, have went to clinics, have raised my average by 20 pins and carry a 163 sanctioned average. And later this month will participate in my first tournament. Still not "happy"…still get frustrated…but even though I may not win a popularity contest on the site (or a free ball)…I'm heading in the right direction (bowling) and having fun doing it!!

Cheers.

Hampe

01-09-2014, 04:26 AM

We'll see Hampe. Yes, you will.....especially when you start traveling to other centers for tournaments, which it sounds like you plan on doing. That was when I realized I needed one. I can't even count the number of spares I missed by a hair and walked off the approach thinking "man, I REALLY should get a plastic spare ball". And when I finally did make the switch last year, I felt like a huge idiot for waiting so long.

sprocket

01-09-2014, 09:38 AM

I should probably get a plastic spare ball. I don't have one because I can really straighten the ball out at spares and at the center I bowl I actually prefer a ball that hooks for the ten pin. This is because the outside is very dry and if I do miss towards the gutter the ball may grip and hang on even though I am killing the roll.

My argument FOR a plastic spare ball would be this: When you use your strike ball for spares there is always going to be a tendency to hook most spares on the left and to also try to create area so if you miss left the ball slides into the spare and if you miss right it hooks into it. That's all well and good when you are very familiar with the pattern. Now go to a house where the condition is unfamiliar. You now have to get lined up for strikes AND all spares you will hook the ball at. It increases the chances of missing some spares!

Now, wait, I said I can throw my strike ball straight so why don't I just throw it straight at all spares? Well, because I am mostly bowling at the one house and I want to increase my chances by creating area for spares. Since I don't have a plastic spare ball, I can't talk myself into throwing my strike ball straight at all spares. If I ALWAYS used plastic for spares I would get used to throwing straight at all (or almost all) spares and that would help me in the long run.

RobLV1

01-09-2014, 12:11 PM

So much depends on the conditions on which you bowl. I am a firm believer in taking advantage of percentages. Personally, I always use a plastic ball to shoot the ten pin, six pin, or six/ten combination. On a house shot, I will use my strike ball to hook into everything else, with the exception of splits where throwing plastic straight will make the angle smaller and increase the conversion percentage. Now, here's the rub: on sport conditions, I use a plastic ball for everything except double wood conversions, so if I know that I am going to be bowling in a tournament on a sport condition, I will use only plastic for all my non-double wood spares for at least a week before the tournament, just to get comfortable doing it.

Aslan

01-09-2014, 01:15 PM

I really don't think we're as different (all of us) as the arguements lead one to believe. Most of us (righties) use a strike ball for left side leaves and hook into it. Most of us use a plastic for right side leaves.

The consensus (Hampe and others) is that plastic balls become more necessary when you go to different houses. And thats true. I use my "back-up" ball on synthetic lanes (other houses) because on heavier oil it goes very, very straight. On my usual house...I don't use a plastic ball because I know the lanes and how my low-hook ball will react. BUT..I also am open-minded to the concept and admit that maybe/probably down the road I might need plug and re-drill my urethane...or just buy a Columbia WD. With my lack of patience...believe me...if I start missing make-able spares solely because I'm being stubborn about a plastic ball....my lack of patience and desire to be better will greatly outweigh my stubbornness.

One thing I think is helpful to keep in mind...when reading about moder bowling or ball changes or plastic ball necesity....is that 70% of league bowlers bowl in ONE house. Most of them only bowl in ONE league in ONE house. These advanced concepts are awesome...and I love reading about them and deciding how to incorporate them into my game...and I am somewhat of an exception in that I like to bowl in different houses for the experience. But it's also fair to warn beginners and bowlers that never leave their THS in their ONE alley...that a lot of this stuff isn't necessary. You don't need a 7-ball arsenal...you shouldn't be making 2-3 ball changes in a series...a plastic ball may or may not be a huge help.

The only thing that frustrates me more than a beginning bowler talking about filling gaps in his/her "arsenal" or seeing a beginning bowler use a plastic ball on EVERY spare leave (even the left)...is seeing a true beginner throwing a house ball and having NO CLUE what they are doing. As I mentioned in my other post...and Rob touched on regarding coaching/teaching...I get SOOO frustrated when I see a beginner struggling because I naturally want to help them have a more enjoyable bowling experience...but I don't know what to tell them...and I don't "want" to offer advice I wasn't asked for...and I doubt my own abilities/advice because I'm not even a 175 average bowler (which these days is nothing).

Quick question on plastic spare ball before I forget. Anyone can answer that might know. I bowl with a lady that is older, throws an old urethane ball, ultra-low speed, virtually no revs, helicoptor release. She struggles MIGHTILY...and I can't emphasize how MIGHTILY....she struggles picking up single 7-pins (she's a lefty). My question about plastic spare balls is...assuming we can't get her to go to a different style or weight or something to help carry that 7-pin more often (which is unlikely...she bought a new ball and hates it and wont use it)...would a PLASTIC ball help? In other words...would a plastic ball hook less than a urethane at an ultra low speed like 8-9mph? Or at that speed will even a plastic ball hook? I feel bad for her because she leaves a 7-pin probably about....5-6 times per game. A lot of splits (she and another guy on our team are tied for the record this year with 6 in one game). Sometimes she gets lucky and leaves the 4-7...so she at least might be able to knock the 4 into the 7. But yeah...our team could probably pick up easily 30 pins per game if we could help her pick up 7-pins. Thanks.

classygranny

01-09-2014, 02:51 PM

Aslan

01-09-2014, 04:43 PM

Aslan, is she consistently missing the 7-pin on the inside or getting to the gutter before the pin? Is she even consistent on the way she misses the pin? These things will help in determining the answer to your question.

She helicoptors the ball left to right...high track on the left side. So the ball starts way left and slowly moves toward her pocket.

When she leaves the 7-pin...she tries to go cross lane and hook into it but the ball usually goes out towards the gutter and comes back and she misses inside.

RobLV1

01-09-2014, 08:32 PM

Four days out of the week, two leagues and two days of pot games, I bowl on multiple pairs in the same bowling center on a given day. Just today, in the almost-scratch triols league we bowled two games on one pair, and moved one pair to the right to bowl the next two games. If you think that you don't multiple bowling balls because you just bowl in one center, please try this. On the first pair, I shot 182-224, finally finding that I could "conquer" the pair by using two different bowling balls on two different lines on the two lanes. We then moved one pair to the right, where I had been able to watch the people ahead of us bowl, and shot 166-237. In all, I tried four different bowling balls, standing everywhere from 25 crossing 12 to 9 at the breakpoint to 33, crossing 17 to 13 at the breakpoint. Please try this if you really think that just bowling in one center doesn't require multiple bowling balls. As to the lady with the slow ball speed, don't try to help her, other than to convince her to take a couple of lessons. Uneducated advice is not a help, it's a hindrance. A qualified coach can help her to get some ball speed so that she can actually bowl.

Aslan

01-10-2014, 01:30 AM

That seemed very negative. But it's hard to tell on the internet…ya can't truly judge "tone". A lot of people think I'm being "sarcastic" or "snarky" which always seems odd to me because when I read what I write…I'm actually very pleasant and jovial. Just hard to judge tone.

RobLV1

01-10-2014, 05:43 AM

It really wasn't meant to be negative. If I want to respond negatively to something, you'll know it. No, my answer did, however, communicate a little bit of my own frustration at hearing bowlers trying to "help" other bowlers. First of all, it takes a whole different set of skills to be a good coach than it does to be a good bowler. Coaches need three basic abilities: the ability to "see" what an athelete is doing, and the ability to understand how the different parts of the physical game interact, and the ability to effectively communicate with the athelete to resolve the issue. Oftentimes a problem that a bowler is having is related to something totally different than the effect that the bowler is seeing.

Of the three abilities, the ability to "see" is a talent that some people have and some don't. I really don't think that "the coaches eye" is something that can be taught. The other two things, the ability to effectively communicate (teach), and the ability to understand how the different parts of the physical game interact, can be taught, and are taught through the USBC Coaching Certification program. Anyone who believes that Certification is simply a matter of paying your money and getting your "title" should really go through the program themselves. This is not to say that every certified coach is a great coach and that any non-certified coach is ineffective, however if you want to give yourself the best chance of finding someone to really help you with your game, going to a certified coach is a really good place to start.

I can't begin to tell you how many times I hear really good bowlers trying to teach other bowlers by getting them to bowl like they do. Walter Ray Williams Jr., the holder of more PBA National Titles than anyone else in the history of the game, will be the first to tell you that he would never teach anyone else to bowl the way that he does. That's why he is now a USBC Silver Level Certified Coach.

Rob Mautner

Hampe

01-10-2014, 06:24 AM

That's a good point Rob, and it's exactly why I try to refrain from helping bowlers under my level. I'm just not good at seeing what exactly they are doing wrong (unless it's totally obvious), and I can only teach someone to play like I do (which might not be best for them). My wife starting bowling this year, and after she got her first ball drilled, she complained that it was too heavy and couldn't play with it (the first time we went out). I took her to my coach and the first thing he noticed on the first throw was that she was putting her fingers to far into the ball so she couldn't get her thumb all the way in, making the ball feel much heavier than it should. I didn't even notice that when I was trying to show her how to bowl! It's just something so basic I took it for granted, but a good coach will spot it right away.

Anytime a beginner asks me for help with their technique, the first thing I do is refer them to my coach. It might not be what they want to hear, but I don't want to be the one responsible for holding them back or giving bad advice.....there are plenty of other guys at the center who are willing to do that already :)

I always feel bad for the beginners that ask for help and then get bombarded by (usually contradicting) advice from 3-4 people that have no clue :/

RobLV1

01-10-2014, 09:58 AM

Many years ago Wendy Macpherson gave me some great advice. She told me, "Never coach anyone you've ever seen naked including yourself and your spouse." Today my wife is going to take a lesson from a local coach that I recommended... I'm going to a different center to bowl pot games!

Rob Mautner

Aslan

01-10-2014, 03:01 PM

I can't begin to tell you how many times I hear really good bowlers trying to teach other bowlers by getting them to bowl like they do. Walter Ray Williams Jr., the holder of more PBA National Titles than anyone else in the history of the game, will be the first to tell you that he would never teach anyone else to bowl the way that he does. That's why he is now a USBC Silver Level Certified Coach.

God I want to win the lottery so I could afford a lesson with Walter Ray. Ughh. Maybe he'd give me a combo price and give me a bowling AND horseshoe lesson. A boy can dream. :rolleyes:

I always feel bad for the beginners that ask for help and then get bombarded by (usually contradicting) advice from 3-4 people that have no clue :/

I see your and Rob's point Hampe...but to play Devil's Advocate (which is something I'm used to)...what about the people that get turned off quickly from bowling because they can't do well?? Isn't there something to be said for encouraging new bowlers and sparking interest and involvement in the game? Are the more experienced bowlers not, in at least a small way, ambassadors for the game?

I admit...my first coach...wasn't that good of a coach. He taught me a lot of things that over the last few months I've had to "unlearn" to take my game to the next level. But I'll be honest...it was his willingness to stop by and watch me throw a couple balls and give me free advice and then work with me a little that took a 2-4 times a year casual cosmic bowler and made him a very serious league bowler and new USBC member.

Im not arguing..Hampe and Rob make some great, great points. I'm just wondering where we draw that line between helping/goring the sport/doing good and sort of putting our palms in their face and deflecting them to a coach which they may or may not go to. Coaches aren't everywhere and the good ones aren't cheap. I used the coach locater on bowlingball.com and there are only 4 coaches near me...and I live in the second most populated area in the United States. And 2-3 of those 4 coaches charge at LEAST $75/hour for a private lesson. Lots of new bowlers hear, "go see a coach" and think, "Yeah....thats good advice...but...I can't afford it. I just want to learn to bowl good enough not to completely embarass myself."

Interesting...

swingset

01-10-2014, 04:27 PM

I'll make an obvious and adversarial point about coaching/teaching, but one I believe in very strongly. I'll word it in the form of a question:

How did anyone ever get to be a coach in the first place? Who taught them?

That knowledge had to, at some point, arrive from being self-taught, or we'd still be standing at the foul like hucking the ball like a rock (as they did when the first person attempted the game). And, as we've progressed from rubber balls to plastic to urethane to resins and the very different modern approach, all along the way someone took to the lanes and came up with a new way, and then imparted it by example or by advice to everyone else...and without fail, it was someone re-inventing the wheel when there was no one there to teach them. It's how we have two-handers, UFO bowlers, crankers and the like, isn't it?

Now, don't get me wrong, I do absolutely respect and value the process of learning from someone who knows the game and has the skill to teach it...on that note I very much agree with Rob, many people can and do benefit from professional coaching...but I do realize that it's not for everyone and being self-taught or even taught incorrectly can be advantageous (yes, I mean that).

One thing about being self-taught, if you're the right kind of learner, is that you might break new ground in understanding or discovering how best to do something without bias or influence and those changes may be more profound and stick better when you've arrived at them of your own doing. And, experimenting or coming at things with an alien perspective can lead to revolutionary improvements or styles. Learning incorrectly (such as the poor advice from a fellow bowler) can also be put to good use, as it can illustrate that some skills are not translatable and prompt someone to seek a new, or their own way.

I've seen some pros (as WRW above sort of illustrates) whose form is so fundamentally whacky that I am relatively sure if they walked into the Kegel center as total unknowns and were judged by their mechanics alone any sane coach would try to remake them. How did Leanne Hulsenberg ever escape a coach with her side-ways walk and lurching, off-balance delivery? Clearly, she self-invented her form to a degree. Yet, who can argue the results? Did a coach help to shape her game? Absolutely, but I think the sheer diversity of top-level athletes in this game with "WTF?" form illustrates that coaching has its limits, or is totally subjective....or in some cases is at its best when teaching the mental game over the physical.

I say all this as someone who had 2 bowling coaches in my youth who managed to build for me a foundation of bowling skill I've had to spend 20 years undoing in order to play the game well. They were both, to be honest, poor at their craft but how would I have known that at the time? More to the point, does being a certified coach mean your advice is better than someone who is not, or trusting your own observation and experimentation? The answer to that is sometimes yes, and sometimes no. I have a laundry list of examples of this in my own game - where some of the best and time-tested advice I ever got came from a fellow bowler and contradicted a coach.

The key to that was, and this is paramount for any bowler, I took their advice as an experiment to try and incorporate into my game and skill set. If it improved me, physically or mentally, I kept it. Otherwise, I wrote it off. Some advice I've received and discounted, only to revisit later and realize the wisdom in it (such as moving forward on the approach to force shorter steps and a slower delivery). When I first tried it, it confused me and got me too much in my head, but now I've learned to use that adjustment to great effect...it's in my war chest of the very best tools to adjust to changing conditions, and it came from some normal guy I hardly knew years ago.

tccstudent

01-10-2014, 04:57 PM

I think the point is some people are better teachers then others. A coaching certification does not make you a good coach. In a sport like this there is no one size fits all answer to fixing someones technique. We have all seen good bowlers who we look at and see some sort of flaw in their technique.
While we all want to help of fellows out there and most of us are more then willing to give advice. Not all of us have the skill set to be able to teach. Most of us know our own game and how we do things and while that works for us it may not work for others. But telling someone to make the adjustment we think should be made may not be the right adjustment for them.
There is a whole laundry list of possible adjustments. It is up to you to learn your game and to learn when to make a specified adjustment. Many times there can be 3 or 4 adjustments that can give you the positive result you are looking for.

RobLV1

01-10-2014, 05:05 PM

Good points all.

Aslan: I totally agree that someone who stops by to watch a rank beginner throw a couple of shots and gives them some free advice to help them with the basics, is certainly an ambassador for the game. I had an interesting discussion with Mark Baker a couple of years ago who stated that the most important thing that any coach can do is to help a bowler to break 100 regularly. He alluded to the fact that once they can break 100 we have a chance of having them become serious bowlers, but if they can't break 100, they probably won't be back.

No, what I am talking about are people who actually function as coaches, charging bowlers minimal amounts for advice that is totally off the wall and has no foundation in accepted fundamentals.

swingset: To answer your question, the first coaches came from people who yearned to be teachers first, so they became students of the game. The approach that more advanced coaches take is illustrated by the differences in the USBC Coaching Levels. Level I and Bronze Level Coaches are taught to look at bowlers from the beginning of the approach forward to the foul line. This is how the basics are taught to beginning and intermediate bowlers. Silver and Gold Level Coaches are taught to evaluate more accomplished bowlers from the foul line backward. A good example that you mentioned is Leanne Hulsenberg. While her approach is unorthodox to watch, her position at the foul line is perfect. A high average bowler who suddenly decided to call himself a coach would try to change her. An educated coach wouldn't dream of it!

Rob Mautner

Aslan

01-10-2014, 05:38 PM

I see what you're saying swingset. Valid points as well.

One (short) story from my experience...in GOLF. I had SO many people try to help me fix my swing and my massive slice. SO many people. And one day I ran into a guy that hit the ball almost 90 degrees off the tee and sliced it into the center of the fairway. He "played" his slice. And I started doing that. Was it successful? Nope. But it was MORE successful than all the attempts I had made trying to fix it.

Now...later on...realizing my immense distance potential and realizing that THAT guy made that swing work because he had an incredible short game so he didn't need to get as close to the green as I do...I eventually stopped "playing my slice" and started to fix my swing...and when I did...nearly everyone tried straightening my left arm. And I just couldn't get it to work. One day...met a really good golfer...best guy on our outing. I asked him for some pointers and told him my struggles...and he just said, "if bending your arm feel natural....bend your arm. I bend my arm." Bamm...slowly I went from a 177 per 18 holes golfer to a 124 per 18 holes golfer. It wasn't ALL that comment...but it helped. And when you're playing a frustrating game like golf or bowling...when you're really playing against yourself more than anything...sometimes the difference from hating the sport and being miserable and loving the sport is simply just getting a "little" better at it.

I think everyone has made some good points though. I was taught by my family...that got me started. Coaching got me over the next hurdle. More coaching and input from other bowlers and internet stuff is helping me to the next level. Some of it I use...some of it I discard...some of it I mold into my game.

Aslan

01-10-2014, 05:45 PM

Rob (or any certified coach out there)...quick question about coaching:

Would you ever advocate teaching a very new, or very young bowler a somewhat outdated/more traditional approach?

The reason I ask is, I've been trying to help my 10-year old daughter...but I just have been giving her the very low level basics...the throwing the ball "out" rather than just dropping it...or the "handshake with the ceiling" to get her to follow-through. The 4-step approach. I figure if she takes to bowling...obviously a real coach and her own equipment are the next step. But as Rob mentioned..I'm really just trying to get her to hit that 100 mark with basics.

However , after reading about the difference in the modern bowling technique...I'm wondering if maybe a traditional/transitional bowler like me shouldn't even do that kind of "teaching" because if she DOES take to bowling....it might be a detrimental start. But if the answer is "no...don't teach her that."; then is it even possible to teach advanced things like the modern approach/release to such a beginner level bowler?

swingset

01-10-2014, 05:54 PM

Good points all.

swingset: To answer your question, the first coaches came from people who yearned to be teachers first, so they became students of the game. The approach that more advanced coaches take is illustrated by the differences in the USBC Coaching Levels. Level I and Bronze Level Coaches are taught to look at bowlers from the beginning of the approach forward to the foul line. This is how the basics are taught to beginning and intermediate bowlers. Silver and Gold Level Coaches are taught to evaluate more accomplished bowlers from the foul line backward. A good example that you mentioned is Leanne Hulsenberg. While her approach is unorthodox to watch, her position at the foul line is perfect. A high average bowler who suddenly decided to call himself a coach would try to change her. An educated coach wouldn't dream of it!

Rob Mautner

I absolutely get what you're saying, but I guess I disagree slightly in how coaches came to be. I think the first people to teach the game were in all likelihood products of the free market as much as emissaries of skill, tho both might have existed. I know coaches in not just this game but in disciplines like mine (I'm a coach of HS and Col. marksmanship and shooting sports) who arrive at it from being top level athletes first, and parlay that into staying in the game or keeping themselves employed while they compete. But, irregardless, I think my point was more to do with the skills they started teaching didn't arrive by tablet from the USBC Gods. They were honed and learned by trial and error, often without the benefit of someone else there to see what was going right or wrong. And, I contend that's been the case for 100 years of this game. It's how new skills make it into the coaches bag. Coaches help this game immensely, absolutely they do, but I think most every watershed in the game came from someone tossing tradition or bias out the window and chucking it contrary to conventional wisdom.

I know for my other hobby, that coaches often learn from other coaches (or from a long study and understanding of the game)...and their skill set as a coach can be limited by bias or tradition. I think this is especially dangerous to a coach with regards to form, it certainly was the issue I wrestled with the most predominantly before having some realizations about its importance. As you probably would agree, form is only a framework meant to enhance repeatability and remove the bowler's natural inclination to manipulate each shot. Without repeatability, less muscle memory and thus more conscious or unconscious input and finally - inconsistency. To that end, it's natural that bowling coaches have over the course of time come to place a great importance on finishing as a "metric" of seeing consistency...as Leanne's example suggests (although I don't see her finishing form as exemplary...her trailing foot is often up in the air, behind her, which acts as a counterbalance for the fact that her shoulders and head are far forward). But, that focus on one part of the delivery being crucial illustrates my wariness with some coaching.

I have not, obviously, been privy to the best and top level coaches in the world but I've done my share of reading and watching of those that post lessons or speak on the subject of form (to include you sir, whom I hold in very high regard). I see some similarities in all of them, some divergence, but I see a great deal of calories being burned to illustrate the methods that your form can be molded into that framework of "proper" movements.

I guess my split, philosophically, with the coaching I've seen and what I have learned from my own is that I think it has been too largely focused on molding the approach in order to finish correctly with a good release. Not that this isn't a noble and seemingly correct aim, but that physiologically, left to our own devices, many bowlers seem to be able to develop that repeatability even with what could best be described as outrageous gross muscle movements. I'm coming to believe as I get older, that repeatability is far less of a physical function as it is mental and discipline...and I think coaching has fallen for a false premise of teaching the fundamentals which (ideally for certain physiology or natural inclinations) harness that repeatability, but don't create it.

It's been a recent catharsis for me, and I'm not sure I'm fully right...but I'm now seeing consistency in terms of release not only being the superior attribute but shaping the approach in a backwards way. Meaning, that consistent releases dictate that the body come to the line the same way...teaching the body "backwards" by getting the ball to that release in the way that is natural to the bowler (often screwy looking) and most apt to produce that release again. It's why I believe extreme cuppers - with nearly ZERO backswing, muscling the ball and using mostly body momentum can still play this game to a high degree of accuracy. It's all in their release...and the approach is not setting the release up as much as the release forces the body to adhere to the design. A little physical in the body, a lot of physical in the hand, and mostly mental. They break every rule, but we've all seen guys who bowl this way and are lights out bowlers that drop it on the mark the same way every time.

I hope that makes sense, I'm not trying to be dismissive of coaching, believe me. Perhaps this revelation is something not new to you, or I'm talking out of my butt, or it's something you even teach...but it seems like something I don't see out there in the ether of skills and methods.

Aslan

01-10-2014, 06:50 PM

I just wanna say I love swingset....because he is the only one besides Iceman that matches me in wordiness. :D

Ya know what annoys me....as I try so very, very, very hard to perfect my game and my approach and my release and my line to the target and my follow-through...and remembering at the end that goddam it I forgot to use my balance arm again!!?? Ya know what is MOST frustrating. Looking at the lane to my right...and seeing a short little fat guy with a bald head...do some weird arse release...where he almost falls over sideways...and the guy rolls a 249 and anchors his team while me and my struggling self...with above average balance...bowl a 143.

But...it's times like that where I tell myself...and I'm sure this was kinda the point that many of the "pro-coaching/technique" guys were eluding to...I tell myself that in time I'll be the better bowler because that guy and his flawed approach/timing/balance/release has probably maxed out his potential. The key...is being patient...and...it's not my strong point. I want to be as good as Wes Malott NOW...not "someday"!!

RobLV1

01-10-2014, 07:23 PM

Wow! I'm speechless, and that doesn't happen very often.

dnhoffman

01-10-2014, 08:47 PM

Wow! I'm speechless, and that doesn't happen very often.

Pray tell, what exactly, has you speechless?

swingset

01-10-2014, 09:41 PM

Wow! I'm speechless, and that doesn't happen very often.

If I've gored a sacred cow, that's entirely fair but perhaps I'm not conveying my thoughts on the matter in the correct way. I'm not downplaying form as unimportant, not at all, only that once you've created enough mechanical know-how to 4 or 5-step and leverage the ball (however you intend to bowl, be it 2-handed, thumbless cupped, traditional stroker/tweener behind-the-ball, whatever) and practice that into some sort of aptitude for the game, I believe your release will sort of dictate backwards the finer mechanics of your approach and not the other way around....and that the more your release becomes refined, your body starts learning to adapt to this by setting itself up for what is a more natural release for your physiology (which is also going to dictate your bowling style to a degree). I think this explains the unconventional greats, frankly.

I have seen this with new bowlers coming to fingertip/hook bowling where, absent any real instruction, the release isn't being formed after the approach is "built" but rather the clumsiness and gross mistakes in the form tighten up and consistent approaches (even if they're fundamentally awkward) take shape as the release gets hammered out. And, when the release works first, the body follows faster than if the approach/form is good but they're not getting the release they want. I think the release is dictating to the body the intuitive movements to deliver the ball in a sense.

If bowlers do this instinctively, isn't there a lesson in it? And, like I said above I could be nuts but I recognized it in myself. The most profound leap forward in my game was developing a new, natural and stronger release without any thought or regard to my approach, and when I did that I found my approach had to change and my swing, and shoulders, and the whole shooting match. Without deciding or informing my body where I wanted it to be, my more natural (in to out) release was preventing me from defaulting back into the form I had been taught (think Earl Anthony...square to the pins...handshake....yada yaha). It was a lightning bolt move for me, it was an almost instant 20-30 pin average increase.

After that, I started paying attention to other bowlers and seeing if I recognized that in someone learning or re-learning the game. It's not evidence or a conclusion, as much as a theory.

J Anderson

01-10-2014, 10:45 PM

If bowlers do this instinctively, isn't there a lesson in it? And, like I said above I could be nuts but I recognized it in myself. The most profound leap forward in my game was developing a new, natural and stronger release without any thought or regard to my approach, and when I did that I found my approach had to change and my swing, and shoulders, and the whole shooting match. Without deciding or informing my body where I wanted it to be, my more natural (in to out) release was preventing me from defaulting back into the form I had been taught (think Earl Anthony...square to the pins...handshake....yada yaha). It was a lightning bolt move for me, it was an almost instant 20-30 pin average increase.

I just read "The Inner game of Tennis" on the recommendation of Rob Mautner and "The Game Changer" by Mark Baker. Actually Rob had suggested the Inner Game of Golf. A lot of what you've said about your evolution as a bowler in this and previous posts I think agrees with the "Inner Game" philosophy.

Mark Baker's approach to the release seems to be the exact opposite of yours. He focuses on swing path and timing and lets the release take care of itself.

Your approach has worked well for you. Mark's approach has been very successful with his students. My conclusion is that coaching works best when both the coach and the student approach the game with an open mind.

sprocket

01-11-2014, 01:37 AM

RobLV1

01-11-2014, 05:26 AM

I think that the bottom line here is that no two athletes are alike, and this goes straight back to a coaches training in terms of learning to become a teacher of the game, rather than just a communicator of his/her own style. The most important thing is for a coach to approach the student in the way that will benefit the student the most. It has to do with learning styles, and the coaches knowledge that different learning styles even exist.

Everyone has an opinion in terms of what makes a coach successful, and most bowler's opinions are based on their own experiences that, in a great majority of cases, does not include any coaching training. If you have been "helped" by a high average bowler who gave you some adviced that proved to be successful for you, then you probably think that the whole certification thing is a bunch of nonsense because of your positive experience with a non-certified coach. If, however, you have had your own game put on never-never hold through bad advice from a good bowler, then you may agree that seeing a trained coach is valuable if you "want to be as good as Wes Malott NOW... not "someday"!!"

When I give you my opinion on the value of seeing a Certified Coach, it is not just based on my own personal experiences as a bowler, but also my own experiences as a coach who has actually experienced the Certification process. And, just so you know, this opinion of mine continues to exist despite the fact that the person who has help me the most with my own game is not only un-certified, he has also never coached before! It's all a matter of percentages: if you want the best chances for success with a particular coach, see someone who is USBC Certified.

Rob Mautner

swingset

01-11-2014, 09:45 PM

For every bowler that has worked on their release first and then successfully had the rest of their approach fine tune itself around it, there is another guy that tried to do the same thing and now, 15 yrs later, he still has a terrible, forced approach where he basically stops at the foul line, thus negating his entire approach, and then does just his release and only that. He might as well have just stood at the foul line and released the ball. Then he wonders why his wrist hurts, why he has to wear a tendinitis band, why he has no speed, why he is so rev dominant, why his ball hooks the second it hits the lane, and why he has never improved.

You misunderstand me. I don't mean to work on the release first, but to REFINE it first. This assumes a basic approach with somewhat sensible and natural timing has been established (which is always step "A"). I think refining the release to a person's more natural inclination will allow the approach to work towards a more natural game, overall, instead of forcing a player into body mechanics which are out of his physiological tendency to repeat over and over.

It's my theory, anyway.

Hammer

01-12-2014, 06:13 PM

Rob Mautner: I liked your articles in BTM magazine that I had for a year before it went under. I always read your stuff first. I read the whole link at the beginning of this post. The one that helped me the most on league night last night was the topic of Playing Deep Without a Parachute. I was mostly a slide foot arch on board 20 and throwing in an area of board 5 to 10. That was good for my Blue Hammer urethane ball but was bad for my Raw Hammer Anger ball. When I tried to play deeper then that I didn't know how to make the approach right to swing the ball out to a breakpoint so it would hook into the pocket. I remembered the playing deep subject in the link and used it last night. I will admit it took some real concentration to as you said walk straight and throw left-I am a lefty. Because of BTM magazine I was more aware of my setup with opened shoulders and hips and a lowered bowling side shoulder. Once I got confidence in walking straight and throwing left with the arch of my sliding foot on board 30 to 33 and my swing perpendicular to my shoulder line I was hitting my target at the arrows more consistently and started my third game with six strikes in a row and finished the remaining frames with a strike and 9 pin spares the rest of the way for a 246 game.

I didn't know at the time that people were coming from other lanes to watch what I would bowl after the first six strikes. I couldn't believe that playing deep for me would be so exciting. For a guy that will be 67 soon it only goes to show you that you are never too old to learn something new even if you have been bowling on your league for 27 years. Now I am not afraid to get out of my comfort zone.
Happy to have you on this FORUM. I received a lot of helpful advice from your articles. Keep up the good work.