Reaction to Modern Bowling's "The Physical Game"; New coaching question.

[Aslan]

I recently read one of the articles (http://www.modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Tips-and-Lessons-Coaching-Las-Vegas-NV.html) on Modern-Bowling.com (don't forget the dash)...and while I came away with more than a few questions and some concepts definitely got me thinking...probably the main questions/concerns were about coaching.

In the article, and hopefully Rob is still lurking about to clear up anything I might have misinterpreted), Rob talks about how the "old way" of bowling is where you finish and you are posting with your hand to the ceiling. Remmeber the old "handshake with the ceiling"?? Or am I massively too old? Here's one of the first videos I made of myself to illustrate (for the youngsters that don't know you can even bowl with one hand):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_g_-8o2n-s&feature=youtu.be

In Rob's article he talks about how the modern bowling approach no longer preaches this. That you now want to not only have your shoulders tilted (right for righties), but you also want to end up almost bent over forward (spine tilt). And your hand should extend out towards the pins.

Now in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdbf5iV-tqg&feature=youtu.be) video, shot a bit later after the one above, my hand isn't going as much "to the ceiling"...or at least I'm not posting it and standing up like early on. Why? Because some coaching had between these videos, the 2nd coach said something about me losing energy as I extended and stood up straight (I can't remember exactly).

Then I got some more "teaching" and sort of went away from the higher loft (Mike W. calls it "chucking") and started laying the ball down sooner...more shoulder tilt to the side...and my posting after the shot was more in line with what you see nowadays where the arm swings back and forth. To illustrate, THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGt-xW5RhPo&feature=youtu.be) is a series of videos from my last installment of "help Aslan learn to bowl". You'll notice a fairly significant change in my delivery. I'm lower, I'm not "chucking" quite as much, my shoulders are tilted to the right, and my posting is now my arm freely swinging versus it sticking straight up or out.

Now since that video was shot...I've received some more coaching from Coach #2 and he wants me to get rid of that shoulder tilt and keep my head straighter. In those videos you can see that when I tilt my shoulders, I tilt my head as well. According to Coach #2...pro bowlers don't do that...they keep their heads straight up and down.

But the point, where I was going with this is...my instruction from 2 different coaches, one a bronze level certified with a 200 average and the other a former PBA pro...seem to indicate that one should be straighter up and down. The first coach wanted me to practically be standing up (as in the 1st 2 videos). And one of the "bad habits" that coach #1 tried to instantly cure me of??? Bending over the foul line. Yet in Rob's article...when he talkes about "spine tilt" and illustrates a "modern swing"...he seems to be promoting that forward lean as almost "crucial" (from the article I linked to):

Another fundamental change in modern bowling posture has to do with spine tilt. Traditionally, bowlers were taught to keep the spine in a vertical position, as much as possible, throughout the shot. The philosophy behind this was that a forward spine tilt would result in the bowler “dumping” the ball onto the lane with a significant loss of power. Again, the modern release has changed all that. A traditional release depended on lifting with the fingers to impart power to the ball. Staying upright at the line was mandatory if you wanted to effectively “hit” the ball. The modern power player does not hit the ball. He depends on the whole hand to impart the revolutions to the bowling ball. Take a look at Tommy Jones. His spine tilts forward from the start of his approach, and remains forward throughout the shot and the follow through.

Even a bowler like Pete Weber who has always depended on significant forward spine tilt to achieve his signature high back swing has changed his style significantly to accommodate modern bowling balls and conditions. If you watch a pre-resin video of Pete, you will see that the spine tilt that occurred through his approach went away as the ball was released and he was pretty much vertical in the follow through. Not anymore. Recent videos of Pete show that the spine tilt that he creates during the approach, remains in place as he releases the ball and well into his follow through.

As a result of this increased spine tilt, a great majority of modern bowlers clear their trailing leg by keeping it in the air or let only the toe hit the approach rather than the outside edge of the foot as exemplified in the past by David Ozio and Randy Pedersen. The important thing is to clear the trailing leg whether the foot is in the air or in contact with the approach.

And that brings up my final question...the swing/trailing/free leg. Learning traditional bowling...we were always taught to "keep that foot on the lane". I've really wanted to emulate Walter Ray Williams (my favorite PBA pro)...but Walter Ray has that funky delivery where his free foot actually comes upward words his hand which follows through after releasing the ball. And again...Coach #1...one of the other bad habits to break...stop lifting that swing leg. Of matter of fact, Coach #1 didn't even want my leg to swing...in favor of just sort of kicking it backwards...just enough out of the way so the ball could clear it. Originally, my leg kick was dramatic...like a bowler in curling where their slide foot/knee was almost 90 degrees...and that leg was way out to my left. Granted, that sucks for a guy like me with a bad left knee...but I digress.

So, in summary (for those that have learned to skip Aslan's initial 2000 words to get to the actual point)...if "modern bowling" is so different...why are we still seeing a lot of coaches preaching those old fundamentals? My absolute BIGGEST frustration in getting advice/coaching...whether on this website, from fellow high average bowlers, from other internet sources, from clinics, and from actual coaches...is you can rarely...rarely ever get everyone to agree. The one thing they "tend" to all say is "just watch Chris Barnes"...but other than that...complete disarray.

Thanks. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Perrin]

I'll leave most of this to Rob to respond to since it is his article that you are asking about.

The last section there though I can make a response to. Different coaches teach different things because different peoples bodies work different ways.

Perfect example pinky finger positions. Spread, tucked, tight against ring finger (there are more variations but that is enough for this example.)

For many people it works tucked pinky for longer skid and sharper movement, tight pinky for a middle reaction, and spread pinky for earlier roll.
BUT for some people they have an opposite reaction from the same physical modification to their hand position. They spread their pinky for longer skid and tuck it to get an earlier roll.

It all comes down to different strokes for different folks(and conditions) and you have to get on the lane and see what works for you.

If it was the same for everyone you wouldn't see different styles in the top 20 bowlers in the world.

[bowl1820]

I've really wanted to emulate Walter Ray Williams (my favorite PBA pro)...but Walter Ray has that funky delivery where his free foot actually comes upward words his hand which follows through after releasing the ball.

A comment about emulating WRW.

Walter Ray himself has said this many times "Don't try and copy my style!" because of how unorthodox it is.

[Aslan]

A comment about emulating WRW.

Walter Ray himself has said this many times "Don't try and copy my style!" because of how unorthodox it is.

I KNOW!!! I HATE THAT!! He's the best bowler alive, right-handed, and tall...making him the PERFECT bowler to emulate for me....but probably the WORST choice of a bowler to emulate!! DOHT!!

I'd like to emulate Parker Bohn (2nd favorite bowler)...but he's left handed. I figured due to height...maybe Mika. I like Mika. His swing is pretty "advanced" though. I'm definitely going to have to master "spine tilt" if I'm going to start playing with that backswing.

Thanks.

[e-tank]

Jw whats wrong with developing your own style? I doubt any pro set out to emulate someone else which is why they are all unique

[swingset]

You can't emulate someone with differing physiology, not without screwing your consistency all up. I learned that in golf and years of teaching it.

[Aslan]

Jw whats wrong with developing your own style? I doubt any pro set out to emulate someone else which is why they are all unique


You can't emulate someone with differing physiology, not without screwing your consistency all up. I learned that in golf and years of teaching it.

You two are asking an interesting question...and one we've debated here before. If a pro bowler does X....does that mean I should do X to become a pro bowler??

I have always said that bowling is one of those rare sports where you don't HAVE TO do something the way another successful bowler does...to be successful. Thats why we see so many variations in approaches and releases. Others have argued that to get better quickly one should simply watch a David Ozzio or a Chris Barnes...and do exactly what they do. Well, there's some truth to that. Bowling is a fairly simple sport...if you can almost mirror another player's approach/release or at least get really close...your round object should do what their round object does. It's not a golf ball...it's not going 260 yards through the wind...it's simply rolling 60 feet on a flat surface.

So it's hard to say. I can see their point...but I also think that if everyone simply did what the best pro in a given year did....one year we'd be throwing as a cranker, the next year 2-handed, the next year massive backswing, etc... Too much variation in bowling to say one bowler does it better than the others and should be "emulated". Most people mention Chris Barnes...but doesn't Chris Barnes get beat out for the top spot usually? Why emulate him if he's the 8th best bowler in the PBA? Why not emulate the 7th best bowler?

One thing I've been trying to do is find some consistencies between bowlers of different styles. For example, the one person I was working with said all the pro bowlers keep their heads vertical (they don't lean their head to the side when their shoulders tilt). I haven't investigated that yet...but thats an example (potentially) of something to emulate...a common link amongst high level bowlers.

[e-tank]

-if you could actually emulate their form to almost perfect then anybody who emulated a pro bowler would prob also be on tour

-bowling is not simply a ball going 60 feet down a flat surface

-the margin of error is very small on tour so just because someone gets beat out, doesnt mean theyre worse. They might just had 1 bad break

-Looking at pro bowlers is meant to get a general sense of good bowling form, not to copy them exactly

[bowl1820]

One thing I've been trying to do is find some consistencies between bowlers of different styles. For example, the one person I was working with said all the pro bowlers keep their heads vertical (they don't lean their head to the side when their shoulders tilt). I haven't investigated that yet...but thats an example (potentially) of something to emulate...a common link amongst high level bowlers.

Example of keeping their heads vertical:
http://s5.postimg.org/jfc05ab0n/form_001.jpg

[RobLV1]

Okay, I'll say it: Just watch Chris Barnes, LOL. I think that bowlers get way too caught up in the particulars and forget about the whys. The main thing is that a main difference between traditional and contemporary bowling is the need to project the ball down the lane with a minimum amount of "hit" (fingers). The easiest way to project the ball down the lane is to increase your spine tilt from the beginning of the approach all the way through when the ball is gone. If you can do that and still reach for the ceiling, then go for it. I really don't see any importance in what a bowler does after the ball is gone, other than posting the shot as a check on timing. If you can't post the shot, your timing is off. As far as the trailing leg, again it's a matter of timing. Sean Rash lifts the trailing leg as he increases spine tilt, but does not post the shot for more than a millisecond because he uses late timing. Whether the trailing leg is on the approach or in the air, it should be kicked to the left (for a right handed bowler) to clear a path for the ball without going around it. In terms of getting help, coaching involves a different skill set than bowling. A great coach may or may not be a great bowler, but a great bowler needs training to be a great coach. Coaching involves teaching, and as a former middle school teacher, I can assure you that teachers never stop learning.

[Aslan]

Thanks Rob.

I'm still struggling with "spine tilt". Admittingly, I don't understand it.

I read some more of your articles last night where you compared the bowler (name I can't remember) from the 80s to 2002 to show how he went from posting upward to projecting outward...but I didn't really see it. His arm still went up towards the ceiling. It "looked" different...so there must be something there...I'm just too inexperienced to see the difference.

What's the difference between "spine tilt" and "leaning over the foul line"? Most coaches preach NOT to lean over the foul line. Yet...watching old Earl Anthony (best bowler ever)...he seemed to lean over the foul line. So I don't know.

[RobLV1]

I was talking about Rick Steelsmith who was a fantastic collegiate bowler with a great future until he was injured. Yes his follow through still comes up, but it comes up after the ball is gone, not through the release. If you want to see how unnecessary a high follow through is, watch some U-Tube Video of Stuart Williams.

Most "coaches" preach not leaning over the line because that's what they were taught by their coaches decades ago. The reason for this was that forward spine tilt prevented them from lifting the ball. Today, we're not looking for lift, so the forward spine tilt does double duty - it prevents lifting which is a good thing, and encourages projecting the ball down the lane which is an even better thing.

Rob Mautner

[Aslan]

So…modern bowling…trying to understand the release. It's bringing the hand from the inside quadrant…to the outside (right for righties)…but NOT UP the side of the ball. Is that "close" to correct?

If it is correct…how do you keep from pushing the ball right as your hand rolls under it to the side? Interesting.

Definitely something to try. I tried opening the face of the ball (to the right for righties)…which then brings your hand into that inner quadrant…but lets just say it didn't work that great the first couple times I tried it. But…things to think about.

[RobLV1]

Developing a modern release is a very difficult proposition, and doing it depends on several other factors that must be present first, most notably keeping the path of the ball going straight back and straight forward. This entails getting the body out of the way by using effective crossover steps on both the second and fourth steps back from the line. A great majority of amateur bowlers bring the ball around their bodies to some degree, just as most amateur golfers swing outside in and hit a slice or a fade. In bowling, it's called "the pro groove," and in golf it's called getting the club into "the slot."

This is why most bowlers, particularly traditionally trained bowlers who were taught to come up the side of the ball to "make it hook," do not and cannot play the inside lower quadrant of the ball. Unless a traditional bowler has the time and work ethic in terms of practice, to dedicate years to developing a modern release, he is better off staying with the traditional release and develop it to the best of his ability, working to minimize "coming over the top" of the ball, and learning to stay behind the ball longer in order to project it down the lane.

Rob Mautner

[Hampe]

This is why most bowlers, particularly traditionally trained bowlers who were taught to come up the side of the ball to "make it hook," do not and cannot play the inside lower quadrant of the ball. Unless a traditional bowler has the time and work ethic in terms of practice, to dedicate years to developing a modern release, he is better off staying with the traditional release and develop it to the best of his ability, working to minimize "coming over the top" of the ball, and learning to stay behind the ball longer in order to project it down the lane.Yea, I saw this first hand with my best buddy. He went to a Slowinski 5 day clinic last year and was really excited about learning the modern way to bowl, but it turned out to be a bit too much of a change. He realized it would probably take him years of bowling 3-4 times a week to just get as good with the new technique as he was before with the old one. Plus, there are no coaches here that teach the modern style that he could work with regularly, which also makes it much more difficult. He's started going back to his old way while still incorporating some of the things he learned (plus he learned a lot of great theory/strategy at the clinic so it's not like it was a waste or anything). I was planning on going to the clinic as well this year if it was held, but after seeing what my buddy went through, now I think I'll probably pass.

[MICHAEL]

Yea, I saw this first hand with my best buddy. He went to a Slowinski 5 day clinic last year and was really excited about learning the modern way to bowl, but it turned out to be a bit too much of a change. He realized it would probably take him years of bowling 3-4 times a week to just get as good with the new technique as he was before with the old one. Plus, there are no coaches here that teach the modern style that he could work with regularly, which also makes it much more difficult. He's started going back to his old way while still incorporating some of the things he learned (plus he learned a lot of great theory/strategy at the clinic so it's not like it was a waste or anything). I was planning on going to the clinic as well this year if it was held, but after seeing what my buddy went through, now I think I'll probably pass.

I will have to look into this method of bowling, but do I have 3 or 4 years!! Hey I am Iceman, but still 65! LOL
I can't figure out why it would take so long to master? If you know the correct delivery, why does it take years to master?
A grand Chess Master, I get it... take years to perfect your game! In bowling the delivery, knowing how, should become natural after a short time of using any technique!

But then you get into the what I call neurological GIFT! I firmly believe everyone has a parameter that THEY can work between. No matter HOW MANY lesions you take, you will only be as good as your (parameters allow).

I am by NO MEANS A BOWLING coach, but do have even at 65, with one lesion last year, a record that I am ok with at this point in my life. Bowling has come VERY naturally to me from the beginning about 4 years ago! I remember bowling with my brother, at the local AMF, and getting a 268, (this was before I was on a league at all at 61 years old. He went and purchased a bowling pin with this on the pin: ( congratulations Mike for your 268, and the date)

I didn't know squat about form or technique, but it did seem to come natural to me. I have been close since then dozens of times like many of you out there 290's,,, 279,,, even a few years ago 298!

Their is something to be said for FINDING YOUR Grove!

I think that the BEST BOWLERS, ((((not me included lol)))) Have this gift of mind, body connection that JUST WORKS!

Coaching is IMPORTANT, IMHA, but the GIFT is the most important THING!! It CAN NOT BE taught.

[sprocket]

Developing a modern release is a very difficult proposition, and doing it depends on several other factors that must be present first, most notably keeping the path of the ball going straight back and straight forward. This entails getting the body out of the way by using effective crossover steps on both the second and fourth steps back from the line. A great majority of amateur bowlers bring the ball around their bodies to some degree, just as most amateur golfers swing outside in and hit a slice or a fade. In bowling, it's called "the pro groove," and in golf it's called getting the club into "the slot."

This is why most bowlers, particularly traditionally trained bowlers who were taught to come up the side of the ball to "make it hook," do not and cannot play the inside lower quadrant of the ball. Unless a traditional bowler has the time and work ethic in terms of practice, to dedicate years to developing a modern release, he is better off staying with the traditional release and develop it to the best of his ability, working to minimize "coming over the top" of the ball, and learning to stay behind the ball longer in order to project it down the lane.

Rob Mautner


This is all so very true Rob! Throw in a big gut and it becomes even more difficult to keep the swing in line. Of course not every pro bowler plays the inside of the ball and even those who do, do it to varying degrees. I think almost all of them though, keep their swing beneath their heads. Some may bring their swing inside their heads coming down into the release zone, but you just don't see top level bowlers with swings that stay outside their head.

I think it's possible to separate the two things. A bowler can work to keep their swing beneath their head and still not have to play the inside lower quadrant of the ball. I don't think the opposite is true though. I don't think you can play the inside of the ball without keeping the swing beneath the head or inside the head at the bottom.

Would you agree with that Rob?

[RobLV1]

Yes, I definitely agree that the head should be outside the ball. For more information you might want to check out Joe Sloinski's Facebook Group: DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder).

I also agree that adding some extra pounds as we get older makes it more difficult to stay behind the ball. Personally I've lost over 50 lbs over the past few months, and found that it's really helped my bowling. That's the good news. The bad news is that it's totally messed with my golf game; I keep trying to swing around a stomach that's not there anymore.

[Aslan]

Thanks Rob. Your explanation (in response to my question) was very helpful. I think for now I'd settle with being a "transitional" bowler (I believe thats what you called it). And I'll definitely start paying attention to where my ball is compared to my head position...AND check out that (drop your damn shoulder) website. Yet another coaching frustration...my 1st coach tried to "cure" me of dropping my shoulder saying I needed to have my shoulers parallel with the foul line...then I find out shoulder drop is sort of advantageous...now I find out a high level pro has a website devoted to it!


but do have even at 65, with one lesion last year,

Eww...gross. You need to get that looked at.

[RobLV1]

Glad to help, but Joe Sloinski is not a high level pro... He's a high level coach - even better!

[zdawg]

This is why most bowlers, particularly traditionally trained bowlers who were taught to come up the side of the ball to "make it hook," do not and cannot play the inside lower quadrant of the ball. Unless a traditional bowler has the time and work ethic in terms of practice, to dedicate years to developing a modern release, he is better off staying with the traditional release and develop it to the best of his ability, working to minimize "coming over the top" of the ball, and learning to stay behind the ball longer in order to project it down the lane.

Its funny because I've been doing just that my entire bowling career - fortunately for me its only been four months so correcting it will not be a problem. Last night I finally had somebody, local scratch bowler/coach (not my coach but he seems to be respected) pull me aside and explained what I was doing on my release - apparently I developed the "traditional" release by coming up the side of the ball as that "seems" like the natural thing to do to make the ball hook, at least to me.

He had me watch my buddy who joined our team and has been bowling for only a month or so, but he naturally stays behind the ball and has no issue hooking it, and while he doesn't have my accuracy and his form isn't great, and he still has trouble lining up and picking his target, he's able to bowl fairly high scores with no coaching and very little practice because his release is so much easier than mine.

That said I've decided to change my release so that I too can "let the ball do the work" (that's what the guy last night kept telling me), as my wrist is starting to hate me and I didn't really realize how easy the release is if you do it "properly" or the modern way I guess.

[RobLV1]

Mark Hammel a great coach who co-authored an article with me a couple of years ago had a great saying. In a nutshell it went something like this: the physical game of bowling is made up of 21 different elements. Twenty of them contribute about 2 1/2% each. The other 50% is the release. How true!