Playing the outside line...anybody?

[Aslan]

So...abridged version of details...I struggled a LOT last night and eventually went to my "B-game" which is to play a little closer to the right gutter...about the 5-6 boards. With less oil out there, I can get the ball to hook back into the pocket on most nights.

The trouble is...I lose all my "miss room" to the right...which becomes "out of bounds". And I can't "play with" my speeds or release as much because I need to be incredibly accurate.

I don't see many players use the extreme outside. I remember players in the past...probably in the late 80s and 90s...guys like Del Ballard and Jess Stayrook...they used to play that extreme outside line...but I don't see it much anymore. I think the introduction of "big hook" balls has led many bowlers to move more inside and use revs to get it back into the pocket.

And that lesds to pros/cons (as I can see them):
The con is, you lose your miss room to the right. You need to be incredibly precise. I am not good enough to play "inside" the 5-board. If I'm missing left playing the 5-board...I have to go to plan 'C' before trying to target the 4, 3, 2, or 1-boards.

The "pros" as I can see it is:
- Less people play there...less people mess up your line. Let everyone else battle each other of the 9 through 20 boards.

Anyone else venture outside? Is it still a viable place to play or has technology forced us inside?

[swingset]

I play outside but I tend to shoot from the outside when I do with much less aggressive equipment...throw from the 10 to the 5 board with a down/in shot.

I don't have the consistency to put it across the lane and bank it off the >5 board dry spot with any confidence.

[tccstudent]

This used to be my shot. I still use it alot if my first choice aint working. I dont worry about missing right cause if I do I generally get a little bit more hand in the ball. If i miss left the oil will allow the ball to hold and still carry and If I pull the ball I have a good chance at going Brooklyn

The con is with this angle you leave alot of corner pins.

[Aslan]

I'm talking about starting with my left heel on the 13-board...throw the ball almost straight along boards 4-6.

Usually my left heel is about 3 boards right or left of center and I'm sending it out over the 11, 10, 9, 8...then it kinda grabs and starts arcing back towards the pocket. When I'm playing my "A-game"...the ball never gets much further right than board 7 unless I miss my target. But when I miss...it's still usually getting to at worst the board 4 before it grabs and comes back.

But when I play the outside...I don't get the same loft or speed or revs...because I have to lay it down very smooth and precise. If I try to rev it (aiming at board 4)....and I miss ever so slightly to the right...GUTTER. The ball IS less reactive (Perfectscore 189)...but the lanes are wood...so when it starts arcing toward the center...it goes.

And that was my problem with that path last night. The ball at that speed, even with less revs, was cutting too early and missing left. Normally....I can move left....but not if you're target boards 0-6. I'd have to move my target. And normally I could just speed it up and play the same line....but the faster I throw...more likely I am to miss...and you can't miss playing that line.

It was an interesting experience and I bowled two games in the 160s. It left me rather easy spares unless I came in WAY right and got a washout...but I think that only happened 1-3 times. Most of the time I was left not right.

I was thinking of trying it in game 1 in league play this Friday...but I think I'll stick with my "A-game" until I feel more confident out there. The right gutter "messes with me" mentally. The closer my target gets to it...the more nervous I get...and it's inevitable I'll throw 1-2 balls in there. And no matter how bad you're playing, you never want to come away with a - in the first shot.

[tccstudent]

Aslan define slightly
You said if you target the 4 and miss slightly your in the gutter. That is a 4 inch miss.
I am talking about playing straight down the lane not throwing the ball out to the 5.
Playing straight down like that gives me more options in hand positions to control the length the ball will go before it starts reacting.

[striker12]

the 5-6 board is a bit easier to play then where i have to normally play in my league i have to play the 1-2 board i have no room for error and most of the time i over hook the pocket but the thing i found out that works with playing out that far is on the approach my last step my slid i slid back to the right witch prevents me from pushing the ball to the right and making it go into the gutter

[SouthpawTRK]

I usually play the 10 board, but have been experimenting playing between the 5th and 8th board with some success. It's a bit outside my comfort zone and it does feel like I'm going to throw a gutter, but overall I think it will be good in the long run.

[sprocket]

Here's a tip for anytime you are trying to learn a line outside your comfort zone:

Temporarily spot closer to the foul line. Like the dots. If you can't see the rest of the lane, then the angle can't bother you. You can start looking farther down the lane to get square to your target line but then move your eyes close to the foul line for your approach. It can't look "wrong" if you can't see it. A target is a target is a target. Just try to hit the board your aiming at. One board isn't any easier to hit than any another board.

[J Anderson]

I was thinking of trying it in game 1 in league play this Friday...but I think I'll stick with my "A-game" until I feel more confident out there. The right gutter "messes with me" mentally. The closer my target gets to it...the more nervous I get...and it's inevitable I'll throw 1-2 balls in there. And no matter how bad you're playing, you never want to come away with a - in the first shot.

At least half the battle is to throw the ball with confidence. You need to play with the outside line in practice until you feel like you can throw it with the same degree of confidence that you do on your "A-game". This doesn't mean you'll never dump one in the gutter again, but that when you play that line you'll make a higher percentage of quality shots.

[Aslan]

Aslan define slightly
You said if you target the 4 and miss slightly your in the gutter. That is a 4 inch miss.


Usually if I'm aiming lets say 9-board (probably my most frequent target)...when I miss...I'm either missing 1-2 boards left or 1-4 boards right. I'd consider that a "miss". If I'm only 1 board left or 1-2 boards right...I'd consider that a "slight miss". In both circumstances, I'm probably still hitting the pocket.

But playing the 9-board...even a 5-board miss to the right will usually stay out of the gutter. Playing the high side...playing lets say board 5...a 1-2 board miss right is "okay"...but 3-5 boards is GUTTER. Thats what I mean by room for error. I have no idea how the old pro guys were able to play a straight line along the 1-2 boards. You'd NEVER see them drop one in the gutter. Yet if my ball gets anywhere near that 1-2 board...it's almost like the alley is "tilted"...right in the gutter.


At least half the battle is to throw the ball with confidence. You need to play with the outside line in practice until you feel like you can throw it with the same degree of confidence that you do on your "A-game". This doesn't mean you'll never dump one in the gutter again, but that when you play that line you'll make a higher percentage of quality shots.

I agree JA. Thats why I was thinking I'd go back to my "A-game" for league play. I need to mentally get better playing that outside shot...where I can alter speeds without losing accuracy. Without an "arsenal", I rely on slight speed changes or loft changes or rev changes to change the balls reaction. Usually it's no big deal if I lose a touch of accuracy (not on wood lanes or low oil...heavy oil synthetics, different story). But I can't lose that accuracy playing that close to the gutter.

Thanks!

[Stormed1]

One of the reasons besides today's bowling balls that you don't see much outside play is todays house walls. There is so much oil in the middle abd so little outside that equipment hooks too early and either goes high or burns up

[RobLV1]

To all of you who choose to play outside of 10 at the arrows on a house shot, keep in mind that you are playing in the dirt. On a great majority of house shots, there's very little oil on the outside of 10, so you ball begins to burn up immediately if not faster. Play the second arrow if you must, but outside of it, your carry will vary likely go down the toilet. And for those of you who worry about dumping it in the gutter when you play outside of five, get a lesson. Seriously, if you can't consistently stay within 3 boards of your target at the arrows you most probably have a timing problem A qualified coach should be able to fix that pronto!

[Aslan]

Seriously, if you can't consistently stay within 3 boards of your target at the arrows you most probably have a timing problem A qualified coach should be able to fix that pronto!

Still working on timing. Just when I think I got it nailed…I'll get to the line and the ball will be just starting to come down…and I just think "Awww…carp." Sometimes early, sometimes late…still working on it.

[RobLV1]

The easiest way to "fix" your timing is to let your body do what it already knows how to do. Simply work on posting every single shot (holding your follow through position until the ball has gone through the pins). It is impossible to post your shot when your timing is off, consequently working on posting it will let your body fix your timing itself.

Rob Mautner

[mc_runner]

The easiest way to "fix" your timing is to let your body do what it already knows how to do. Simply work on posting every single shot (holding your follow through position until the ball has gone through the pins). It is impossible to post your shot when your timing is off, consequently working on posting it will let your body fix your timing itself.


Thanks! I'm going to keep this in mind next time when struggling with timing (which seems to happen quite a bit this year).

[sprocket]

Something I have found that helps timing is the idea of "focus". Many people assume focus means concentrating on what you are doing and blocking out outside distractions. That may be true but I simply think of focus as actual focusing of the eyes. If your target always stays completely in focus and doesn't bounce around in your field of vision, then your approach must be smooth, your head must be level, you must be posting your shot, and you must be keeping your eyes riveted to your target the entire approach and after the ball is well past it. If I ask you what board you hit, you'd better be able to tell me honestly and with no hesitation. We may not agree on what board it was due to eye dominance, but you had better know what board YOU saw the ball hit.

[YODA]

I play outside but I tend to shoot from the outside when I do with much less aggressive equipment...throw from the 10 to the 5 board with a down/in shot.

I don't have the consistency to put it across the lane and bank it off the >5 board dry spot with any confidence.

I throw almost the same way as you. I play outside most of the time, throwing from the 10 to the 5.

[Hammer]

If you play the outside line you have to be careful what kind of ball you use. You have to get the right ball to play that line. This should be discussed with a pro shop who can recommend a ball for that line of play. If you play the outside line you would have to keep your shoulders more parallel to the foul line and have a good release where you do not turn your hand early in your release. When you think about it you have to have a good release no matter what line you play so the ball you are using works correctly for the way it was made to work. Years ago I had a urethane Hammer ball and use to play a line between the 1 and 5 board all of the time. My teammates and the team we would bowl against would ask me how I can bowl so close to the gutter without being afraid. I would just tell them that I was just use to it. Now with a new Blue Hammer and a Raw Hammer Anger ball I can play anywhere from the 5 board to the 35 board.

[swingset]

I throw almost the same way as you. I play outside most of the time, throwing from the 10 to the 5.

I don't play it all the time, but when I do I use a weak ball and put some revs into it so it still has something on it in the pocket. When that shot is working, generally, it's because everyone else is tripping over themselves in the scorched middle.

[Aslan]

I'm starting to like the idea of the "outside line".

My "A-game" and "B-game" (B-game is the outside line) seem to be converging.

My A game has my left heel on board 18-22. Just near center. I then roll the ball in a line towards the 8-board and it arcs back into the pocket. My "B-game" is to stand further right, say left heel on boards 4-7 and throw straight up boards 4-6.

However Friday, I started out more right than usual with my left heel (2-4 boards left of center) and rolled it towards the 8-board. It was technically my "A-game" because I was targeting in the 8-10 board range. But it was also a little "B-game" because I was about 1-3 boards right of where I usually start my approach…making it a "straighter" shot towards the target.

But as I talked about in another thread…I like being right of the 10-board…because it keeps me at least a board away from where many of the female bowlers and more traditional strokers tend to throw…that 9-12 board area.

[RobLV1]

There seems to be a couple of issues going on here. First, where you stand, and where you target is not your A game, or your B, game or your game of any other letter. It's just where you like to play the lanes. Your A game is how you play, not where you play, and the lanes tell you where to play, not the other way around.

Secondly, if you are playing a board to the right of where everyone else is playing, it means that if you tug a shot by one board, you dive through the nose. The idea is to play one or two boards to the left of everyone else so that when you tug you find more oil and hold pocket, and when you miss right you find friction from everyone else and hook back to the pocket. It's called creating some "area." It's a big help in raising one's average.

Rob Mautner

[Aslan]

I consider my "A-game" where I'm used to playing at the speed and loft I'm used to playing…release as well. When I move outside and start throwing the ball straighter (less arc to the pocket), I consider that my "B-game". It's similar to my "A-game" because the target is close…but it's a less snappy release, straighter arc, and relying more on the ball than the revs generated on the release.

I've read your work on moving left to find oil…but that sort of assumes everyone is playing generally in the same area and thus using up the oil. If you're playing the "high/outside" line…and nobody is within say 3 boards of you (they are all to the left)…doesn't that leave you some room to play by yourself to the right without having to move left? There's still a cushion to the left…still some room to the right.

I've tried to move to the left as you and others have talked about. But I've only had success with it once…and that was a holiday weekend when the lanes were just so dry it forced me way to the inside. I just don't seem to have the revs or the ball to get it to catch and come back into the pocket…even at lower speeds.

[CaptainXeroid]

I'm a righty, and at the 2 houses I've bowled practice, the outside boards are so dry any shot that strays outside around 8 duck hooks left and rolls out instantly. At the house where I'm subbing on a league, the lanes are kinda' fried due to pipes in the ceiling bursting so often. Apparently they put down more oil to make the track playable, so many weeks anything outside 10 doesn't come back.

Even on 'normal' lanes, most of today's bowling balls hook so strongly that controlling them outside 10 is very difficult. I recently picked up a bleeder Yellow Dot to handle head burned synthetic lanes. Hey..it worked back in 1988.:cool:

[Aslan]

Well, like anything...it's ball and lane dependent.

I played a house that usually has the heaviest oil I've ever seen...but couldn't play anywhere outside of 15 because it was a holiday weekend = no leagues = don't bother to oil.

And...it's ball dependent. I have a ball that is symmetric with a PerfectScale score of about 189.5. Balls in that range, for a low rev (275-300) stroker..."most" alleys...you could probably play the outside. But if you start creeping up into the 400s in revs and using balls with a PerfectScale score over 200...I could defiitely see how keeping it on the right side of the headpin = impossible.

[RobLV1]

What, pray tell, is a "perfect scale"?

[classygranny]

What, pray tell, is a "perfect scale"?

If you go to bowlingball.com - they "rate" all the bowling balls according to the "Perfect Scale". Apparently to give bowlers an idea of how much a bowling ball will hook. Hummm? Personally, I don't find much use in the Perfect Scale - yet, maybe I don't quite understand how to use it. I find your articles, my pro shop, and coach much better information that this "scale".

[bowl1820]

What, pray tell, is a "perfect scale"?

heres a link to the page that tells about.

http://www.bowlingball.com/info/perfect_scale.html

[Aslan]

I find your articles, my pro shop, and coach much better information that this "scale".

Okay…I'm just gonna say…that was a BLATENT attempt at *** kissing!! Just kidding.

Rob…someday…hopefully…I'll get some more knowledge (get my knowledge on) and will be able to judge a ball based on RG, abrasion surface, and pin-up vs pin-down…couple that with it's core being asymmetric or symmetric…etc… But…right "now"…thats a LOT to take in. I'm learning…slowly…but even though Bowl1820, the internet, and Mike White (bowling ball driller to the stars) have shown me REPEATEDLY what things like PAP and rg and cg vert angles and just all kinds of "stuff"…I don't get it. I sorta get it. I read yur articles about RG…and how it affects how early the ball starts to hook…so I AM learning. But…come on…I've been bowling for 5 months…give a brutha a break.

I LOVE perfectscale. I realize it's imperfections. I DO. But…from a total NERD standpoint…the thought that you can create some type of "formula" based on kinds of input data…and it will spit out a "perfect scale score" that can "sorta" direct an intermediate level bowler to select something…is REALLY COOL. I get it's not PERFECT (despite the name). Obviously, you or Chris Barnes, probably could pick out a MUCH better ball for a player than "perfect scale" can. But it's still cool. And it gives a "data point"…a "single" data point that allows easy comparison between multiple different bowling ball brands. And thats cool.

It's not gospel. I've seen people throw a urethane ball from gutter to gutter going thumbless with MASSIVE revs on low-moderate oil. So…release and speed are always able to trump "ball". Nothing annoyed me more when I first got my ball…and was struggling to get it to "hook" and then I go on the internet and see some cranker get the thing to hook like a BEAST! But…perfect scale is just a "tool"…a "screening tool" if you will..to "guide" us newbie bowlers and our tiny, tiny brains…into the vast ocean of knowledge…that we can barely swim in.

Okay…enough mumbo jumbo…gotta go get my practice on!!

Plus I'm gonna try my new app…so YAY!!

[RobLV1]

Okay, I checked out the line that 1820 provided. The problem that I have with the "Perfect Scale" is the same problem that I have with the PBA telecasts that show bowler's arsenals along with a "hook rating." The problem is that bowlers need to understand that the only thing that affects how much a ball hooks (the degree of the angle of the change of direction of the ball) is the release of the bowler. In other words, every ball hooks the same amount for a given bowler, the only things that vary are when it hooks and the shape of the hook. The idea of buying a ball that "hooks more" based on the perfect scale or any other scale for that matter, is that it encourages bowlers to buy balls that hook early (because they cover more boards), that often results in bowlers try to use balls that are way too aggressive (early) for a given lane condition which results in the ball losing energy before it gets to the pins. This was the whole idea of the article I wrote entitled, Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball. This, by the way is the exact reason why I am so excited by the Zero Gravity: it's high rg (2.55) helps to get it down the lane so that its aggressive cover and asymmetrical core retain its power to transfer to the pins.

[Aslan]

is that it encourages bowlers to buy balls that hook early (because they cover more boards), that often results in bowlers try to use balls that are way too aggressive (early) for a given lane condition which results in the ball losing energy before it gets to the pins. This was the whole idea of the article I wrote entitled, Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball.

I actually agree 100% with this. "Hook" has been the "in thing" since the resin balls started coming out...and even relative beginners are out there going for the top of the line, pro performance BEAST. Then the lane breaks down and they go "huh?"

And then we have the "ARSEnal" arguement because they start buying 7-9 ball roller bags as if they're Sean Rash heading to the Masters...when in fact they realistically just need a ball (or 2) that better suits the ONE HOUSE they primarily bowl in 98% of the time.

I have a ball with a PerfectScale score of 189.5 and another with a PS rating of 211.3. I rarely use (really never) the higher rated ball because right now I'm bowling in ONE house and it's wood lanes/low-moderate oil. My 189.5 ball was bought at THAT pro-shop...and drilled by THAT pro to match not only my delivery...but those conditions. It doesn't mean I "can't" use the 211.3 ball on those lanes...I am a firm believer (in slight contrast to Rob's "you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction" mantra) that you CAN make any ball work. But it's harder. And I'd rather use the ball the matches up well than get out the stronger ball...and either loft it further down the lane or try to play the inside (my C-game) or God forbid mess with my approach to make the ball speed increase (which Fs with my timing).

I agree there are better ways than PerfectScale...BUT...PerfectScale at least allows you to compare Hammer to Brunswick to Storm to DV8 to Motiv using the same scale.

I'll have to read "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." I thought I read all the articles on the site but I think missed one or two.

[tccstudent]

The idea of buying a ball that "hooks more" based on the perfect scale or any other scale for that matter, is that it encourages bowlers to buy balls that hook early (because they cover more boards), that often results in bowlers try to use balls that are way too aggressive (early) for a given lane condition which results in the ball losing energy before it gets to the pins. This was the whole idea of the article I wrote entitled, Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball. This, by the way is the exact reason why I am so excited by the Zero Gravity: it's high rg (2.55) helps to get it down the lane so that its aggressive cover and asymmetrical core retain its power to transfer to the pins.
This is true several years ago that all I would buy the newest hook monster. Now days If I go into a pro shop to look at balls I have blinders on I cant even see the top shelf. Unless I am thinking about a tournament I know is going to be heavy oil.

[J Anderson]

I am a firm believer (in slight contrast to Rob's "you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction" mantra) that you CAN make any ball work. But it's harder.


I'll have to read "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." I thought I read all the articles on the site but I think missed one or two.

I think, at least on my better days, I can make any ball I own hit the pocket. The question is, "will it carry?" While I'm busy figuring out where to stand, whether to speed up or slow down, how to adjust my release, etc.with the 'wrong' ball, "Mr. or Ms. Arsenal" has found a ball that gets to the pocket with their standard release and is hitting at the optimal angle and at the right phase of ball motion and is throwing multiple strikes. Who do you think is going to win this game?

"Weak ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." may have been a Bowling This Month article.

[bowl1820]

I am a firm believer (in slight contrast to Rob's "you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction" mantra) that you CAN make any ball work. But it's harder. And I'd rather use the ball the matches up well than get out the stronger ball...and either loft it further down the lane or try to play the inside (my C-game) or God forbid mess with my approach to make the ball speed increase (which Fs with my timing).


"And I'd rather use the ball the matches up well than get out the stronger ball"

Your kind of contradicting yourself here.

Yes most bowlers want to use the ball that matches up, but if you have to make big changes to your normal release (your A game) to get a ball to work.

Then that says it probably doesn't really match up and maybe you should get out the stronger ball.

[Aslan]

I think, at least on my better days, I can make any ball I own hit the pocket. The question is, "will it carry?" While I'm busy figuring out where to stand, whether to speed up or slow down, how to adjust my release, etc.with the 'wrong' ball, "Mr. or Ms. Arsenal" has found a ball that gets to the pocket with their standard release and is hitting at the optimal angle and at the right phase of ball motion and is throwing multiple strikes. Who do you think is going to win this game?

"Weak ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." may have been a Bowling This Month article.

I see that JA...I understand that reasoning. But thus far I've actually seen more of the OPPOSITE situation where a person struggles hitting their target, or pulling the ball, or struggling with their release...and after a few shots they go to their roller bag and pull out ball #2. And ball #2...may be not much different than ball #1. Thats'why I would recommend to anyone that really believes in the "ARSEnal" approach...to read Rob's articles about "knowing your arsenal". Because if you're going to take that approach rather than make small adjustments to your overall delivery...then it's a MUST that you can explain WHY you are switching from one ball to another...and that answer CANNOT be, "because that one wasn't working."

Using the arsenal approach is certainly fine...especially in tournaments where things change or if you're a person that bowls in multiple houses/conditions. But you HAVE to know a LOT about the balls in your bag. You have to know things about rg and drilling patterns and surfaces so you know EXACTLY WHY you are making that ball change. Guys like Rob can throw ONE ball and immediately know what ball in their arsenal is going to be a better choice and can explain that to anyone that asks. But the average bowler?

I've been guilty MANY times of getting in a "funk" and thinking to myself, "screw it. Just use the other ball. This one aint workin." But it's often times not the BALL...its that I'm not really playing the optimum line or my timing is off or maybe I'm not "releasing" consistently the right way. Thats why I think "arsenals" are better left to the elite level bowlers who already have their mechanics perfect. Because then, when they miss or don't get optimal carry, they KNOW it's a matter of a ball change...and they KNOW what ball to go to.

I do a lot of lateral movements when I start missing. And I have to STOP myself sometimes and say, "No...you didn't miss that one because of where you started your approach. You missed your target...or the ball slipped off your hand...or you pinched it." So I have to stop myself from making a lateral adjustment sometimes when it's "something else" that I did wrong.

[bowl1820]

I think, at least on my better days, I can make any ball I own hit the pocket. The question is, "will it carry?" While I'm busy figuring out where to stand, whether to speed up or slow down, how to adjust my release, etc.with the 'wrong' ball, "Mr. or Ms. Arsenal" has found a ball that gets to the pocket with their standard release and is hitting at the optimal angle and at the right phase of ball motion and is throwing multiple strikes. Who do you think is going to win this game?

"Weak ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." may have been a Bowling This Month article.

"Weak ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong ball." is on Rob's site it's under the ball section.