To Pin UP, or to PIN Down, That is the Question

[MICHAEL]

I have never had a ball drilled pin down so far. I ask a few people about the difference, and (does it really make a huge difference with a medium/high speed, medium rev bowler. A driller said to me, "Not that much"!

I get it with a low rev, or slow speed bowler, I can see how it transitions down the lane. But with the higher speeds, and more revs, does pin position really affect the movement of the ball noticeably?

Reason I am asking, thinking about having one drilled with pin down to see if it really makes my ball change that much.

Another question, does pin up, or pin down affect a asymmetrical, ball more then a symmetrical ball?

[tr33frog]

I just had my first ball drilled pin down and I love it. Though keep in mind, my preferred line is standing on the 34.5 with my right foot and throwing over the 12-17 boards. I need to record what I'm doing so I can count revs and speed, but I throw the ball at a pretty decent speed. For me, it seems easier to get the rotation on the ball. I believe you can see my old ball vs my new one in the 12 days of Christmas thread.

[Mudpuppy]

Pin up

[tccstudent]

Yes there is a very noticeable difference. I am like you Iceman throw hard with a good deal of hand.
I generally keep a mixture of both pin up and pin down. I cant say one is better then the other just depends on the lane conditions as to which one is better to have in your hand at the time.

[striker12]

iceman i can tell you more on that when i get the freeze and drill it pin up because then i will have a pin down and a pin up but my pin down one i shot a 234 with 8 stirkes in a row and that was when i had less revs then know

[JaMau24]

Generally speaking, pin up means the ball will hook later (back-end reaction), and pin down means the ball will hook sooner (steady hook; arching hook). Pin down is usually meant for longer oil patterns so the ball can start to hook sooner. For a THS, there are exceptions, but usually pin up is preferred.

[MICHAEL]

iceman i can tell you more on that when i get the freeze and drill it pin up because then i will have a pin down and a pin up but my pin down one i shot a 234 with 8 stirkes in a row and that was when i had less revs then know

thanks striker!! Let us know your thoughts!!! NICE shooting,,, 8 stirkes,,,, soon a 300!!! I can feel it,,,, how about you striker!!!!! (:)

[RobLV1]

There is one basic flaw in the original question: when you are referring to pin-up or pin-down layouts, are you referring to layouts with the same pin-to-PAP distances or just to the vertical position of the pin in relation to the finger holes? It makes a huge difference. Most pin-up layouts, unfortunately, put the pin above the finger holes, rather than above the level of the finger holes. This makes a huge difference as a very strong pin-to-PAP distance of 3 1/4" to 3 3/4" for most bowlers puts the pin to the right of, and just below the level of the finger holes, putting the pin above the finger holes increases this distance to anywhere between 4 1/2" and 6" depending on the PAP of the individual bowler, doing this effectively turns your $220 bowling ball into a $140 bowling ball. It only goes longer because you have increased the pin-to-PAP distance to the point where it flares a lot less, finds less friction, and goes longer before hooking.

Now, if you keep the same pin-to-PAP distance on balls drilled pin-up, vs. balls drilled pin-down, then you have a totally different situation. A pin-up ball with a strong pin-to-PAP distance will have the pin above the level of the finger holes, though considerably right of them (for a right handed bowler). A ball drilled like this will transition totally differently from a ball drilled with a pin with the same pin-to-PAP distance that is positioned with the pin below the level of the finger holes. The transition is the part of the ball's reaction where it changes direction from the forward motion of the skid and starts to hook toward the pocket. The pin down ball starts the transition sooner but transitions for a longer period of time, while a pin up ball starts the transition later but transitions for a shorter period of time. The difference is in length, not strength. They both change angle in the same amount, but the pin down ball has an arcing motion, where the pin up ball has a more angular "hockey stick" shape to it. What's the difference? The pin-up drilling seems to provide more "punch" on a house condition, while the pin-down drilling is smoother and more forgiving on tournament conditions.

Please remember that this comparision is for two balls with the same pin-to-PAP distance, not for balls with the pin arbitrarily placed above or below the finger holes.

[MICHAEL]

Generally speaking, pin up means the ball will hook later (back-end reaction), and pin down means the ball will hook sooner (steady hook; arching hook). Pin down is usually meant for longer oil patterns so the ball can start to hook sooner. For a THS, there are exceptions, but usually pin up is preferred.

I had several questions about the Pin up/down, like does it effect a symmetrical ball, the same way it effects asymmetrical balls?

Does it really effect High speed, High Re's bowlers much at all????

some say the Beatdown, and Brunwick balls are not as snappy as, say Storm. But rather have a more controlled, long curve into the pocket.

So if you had a Beatdown drilled pin up, would it be drilled wrong for that kind of a ball?

This last Monday I was watching some older bowlers, in their 70's bowling. They just happen to have low ball speed! I could see the movement of the their balls very clearly. It seems to me that the lower your ball speed, and less revs you have the MORE IMPORTANT the PIN, and lay-out comes into play, do to the physics/layout of the ball.

They had some beautiful movements into the pocket, and it was the BALL DOING ITS THING....IMHO!

They didn't have speed do, probably to health issues and age, but they got that ball down the lane, BAM, beautiful clean strikes.

[got_a_300]

I laid out and drilled the Storm Reign On that I won
on here last month with the RICO drill where the pin
is placed in the center of my grip span.

I love it as all of my other equipment is pretty much
drilled pin up or the pin is in one of the finger holes it
gives me a very long and gradual arching motion into
the pocket and hits as hard as any of my other bowling
balls do.

With my pin up balls I get a very sharp hockey stick hook
on the back end which can be a little hard to control some
nights and the pin in the finger hole balls doesn't give me
the big hockey stick type hooking motion but they are not
as gradual hooking as the RICO ball is either I guess they
are somewhere in between the pin up and the RICO.

I will post a pic of it when I get one taken probably be this
Thursday night I'll try and get it posted up after league.

[striker12]

thanks striker!! Let us know your thoughts!!! NICE shooting,,, 8 stirkes,,,, soon a 300!!! I can feel it,,,, how about you striker!!!!! (:)

i can feel it but my 8 strikes was the back 8 i went open/spare/spare/open but the open in the 4th was a split but i just had to focus more on my thumb getting out of the ball and not grabbing i grab for a second on the bottom of my swing and need to stop doing that.

[RobLV1]

The way the ball is laid out is no more than how the core is positioned within the ball in relation to the bowlers Positive Axis Point (PAP), which is the initial axis that the ball is rotating around based on the release of the bowler. Personally, I think that the whole concept would be easier to understand if the name was changed to "Personal Axis Point." Doing this would eliminate the habit that some bowlers have of looking at the pin position on another bowlers ball and thinking that they will get the same reaction by using the same pin position themselves. What they don't understand is that if their PAP is different, then the reaction that they will see will also be different.

Anyway, the low rg, differential, and intermediate differential (on asymmetrical balls), that is provided by the manufacturer is for an undrilled ball. Once the ball is drilled, the actual numbers change. The way the core is positioned within the ball also determines the path of the axis migration. The axis migration is the change in the axis around which the ball rotates from the primary axis created by the bowlers release (PAP) to the axis around which the core is designed to spin. The placement of the pin in relation to the holes drilled into the ball determines the direction of the migration, and the direction of the migration determines the shape of the balls reaction. While there are several factors involved in planning the direction of the migration, one of them is the placement of the pin in relation to the finger holes. Pin-up balls tend to migrate in an upward direction that produces a more angular reaction (hockey stick shape), while pin-down balls tend to migrate in a downward direction that produces a smoother, more arcing reaction (bananna shape). What kind of layout works the best for a particular bowler depends on several factors including his bowling style, the particular lane condition on which he bowls, and the part of the lane that he prefers to play.

Rob Mautner

[MICHAEL]

If you have two different types of drillings, Standard finger tip, and Tri-Grip, do these different grips change the axis of rotation![/COLOR]

so when I get my new Byte , to determine the axis rotation, do I need to have it figured out on ONE or the OTHER?

Does it change depending on the grip layout?

[RobLV1]

I'm really not familiar with the Tri-Grip. The next time I talk to Bill I'll ask him about it.

[got_a_300]

Here is a pic of the Storm Reign On ball that I laid out
and drilled with the RICO layout.

[tccstudent]

Here is a pic of the Storm Reign On ball that I laid out
and drilled with the RICO layout.

I thought the RICO was supposed to be at a 45 degree angle that picture shows a much higher angle.

[bowl1820]

I thought the RICO was supposed to be at a 45 degree angle that picture shows a much higher angle.

It would depend on where his PAP is.

the pin is put in the center of the grip, with the CG 45 degrees from your PAP. (Symmetrical ball)

In an asymmetrical core ball, the pin is put in the center of grip, with the PSA (or mass bias) 45 degrees from your PAP.

Given the PAP measurements given of 4 1/2" over 1" up.

That does look higher, I'd say closer to 90 degrees.

http://www.brunsnick.com/rico_ball_layout.html

[got_a_300]

No it is lower than 45 degrees that is the way I
wanted to drill it for the way our lanes play at our
center I think if I remember correctly the CG is at
or around the 15-20 degree mark.

It works perfectly on our lanes but may not work
worth a flip on another centers lanes as I haven't
had the time to try it anywhere else yet.

[bowl1820]

No it is lower than 45 degrees that is the way I
wanted to drill it for the way our lanes play at our
center I think if I remember correctly the CG is at
or around the 15-20 degree mark.

It works perfectly on our lanes but may not work
worth a flip on another centers lanes as I haven't
had the time to try it anywhere else yet.

15-20 degrees looks about right if you measure the angle from the grip centerline.

But the drill angle is measured from the lines drawn from the pin to the cg and the pin to pap

Either way it's not technically a true Rico layout. Because Rico is based on a 45* drill angle
http://www.brunsnick.com/images/ricolayout.jpg

[RobLV1]

Just a quick thought: based on the original question of pin up or pin down, what happened to pin in the middle? According to the Storm VLS System, 4 X 4 X 2 will give you a smooth but strong reaction. The majority of balls in my own arsenal are drilled with the pin neither up, nor down, but in a strong, smooth position for maximum flare and maximum forgiveness. Why doesn't this seem to be an option for anyone else?