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Mike White
02-04-2014, 07:59 AM
Since coming back to bowling in June/July of '12, Ive tried to learn the way the modern bowling ball wants to be thrown.

But for the last year and a half it has been for the most part unsuccessful. It requires what to me is a very weak release.

I've found I have a very difficult time being consistent while throwing the ball that weak.

So at the beginning of the year (2014) I decided to go complete old school.

Back in the 1980's I used a Faball Nail (Urethane - Blue)

The closest to that might be the Blue Hammer, but it has a modern core in the ball.

So I settled on the Storm Polar Ice, and drilled one up on the 20th of January.

The first couple of times using it I was a rust bucket.

Last night however, it finally showed it's promise.

1st game was much better than the final score.

Strike, Ring Ten, Strike, Ring Ten - Whiff, Pocket 7-10, solid 8, 2-4-8 (got the 10 to fall), Strike, Big 4, Ring Ten, Strike for count.

2 shots not flush, and I shot 160.

2nd game I had a boat load of 9 counts (don't remember the specifics) and a late 5 bagger for 225.

3rd game it all came together. 2 frame was a bit high, but carried the 4 pin.

The rest were dead flush 10 in the pit, for a score of… yep. 300.

Now the weird coincidence.

24 years ago (Jan 29 1990) I shot 300, and it was the 5th Monday of the year.

Last Night (Feb 3rd 2014) was the 5th Monday of the year.

MICHAEL
02-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Since coming back to bowling in June/July of '12, Ive tried to learn the way the modern bowling ball wants to be thrown.

But for the last year and a half it has been for the most part unsuccessful. It requires what to me is a very weak release.

I've found I have a very difficult time being consistent while throwing the ball that weak.

So at the beginning of the year (2014) I decided to go complete old school.

Back in the 1980's I used a Faball Nail (Urethane - Blue)

The closest to that might be the Blue Hammer, but it has a modern core in the ball.

So I settled on the Storm Polar Ice, and drilled one up on the 20th of January.

The first couple of times using it I was a rust bucket.

Last night however, it finally showed it's promise.

1st game was much better than the final score.

Strike, Ring Ten, Strike, Ring Ten - Whiff, Pocket 7-10, solid 8, 2-4-8 (got the 10 to fall), Strike, Big 4, Ring Ten, Strike for count.

2 shots not flush, and I shot 160.

2nd game I had a boat load of 9 counts (don't remember the specifics) and a late 5 bagger for 225.

3rd game it all came together. 2 frame was a bit high, but carried the 4 pin.

The rest were dead flush 10 in the pit, for a score of… yep. 300.

Now the weird coincidence.

24 years ago (Jan 29 1990) I shot 300, and it was the 5th Monday of the year.

Last Night (Feb 3rd 2014) was the 5th Monday of the year.

NICE shooting Mike!! Was that 300 in league?? I FRICKEN HOPE SO!! Regardless,,, nice shooting!

tr33frog
02-04-2014, 10:10 AM
Congrats on the 300 Mike, nice bowling! Sounds like you were getting some ball that were too aggressive for the line you wanted to throw, glad you found something that fit!

Aslan
02-04-2014, 12:57 PM
I like this post because he did it OLD SKOOL. So what are we talking here? Were you playing 2nd arrow? Straight shot? A little "flare" at the end?

From your summary, it sounds like you played you line and waited for it to work as oil got moved around. Or did you make a minor adjustment after game 2?? Inquiring minds want to know!!?

Storm is probably not going to want to publicize the 300 game though. They kinda have a vested interest in people buying BYTEs and IQs and Zero Gravitys....they don't want a bunch of potential customers pulling Polar Ices out of their closet.

But MOST importantly...welcome back Mr. Mike. I've been wondering where you've been hiding. I'm gonna be giving you a call in a couple weeks to set up a time to have a ball drilled. The Frantic is nearing semi-retirement and I want to have you tri-grip drill my Slingshot.

MICHAEL
02-04-2014, 02:23 PM
OK MIKE,,, NOW don't tell me your Irish, and that your the 5th Son, of a 5th SON!!! That would solve the weird!

Mudpuppy
02-04-2014, 02:42 PM
Nice work. You have to stick to your guns and repeat over and over to nausea.

circlecity
02-04-2014, 03:53 PM
Good shooting Mike. I just bought a storm polar ice hybrid, but it''s for my spares. It does give me a nice shot around 5-10 board when lanes are dry. Crazy thing is that ball is made in China. booo

RobLV1
02-04-2014, 07:37 PM
So which is it, the Polar Ice, or the new ball that you're going to use for the entire night?

Mike White
02-04-2014, 11:29 PM
So which is it, the Polar Ice, or the new ball that you're going to use for the entire night?

The Polar ICE is what I'll use on the THS. If I go to tournies i'll have to experiment with what works for me on flatter / longer oil.

RobLV1
02-05-2014, 12:20 AM
It's kind of ironic that the first article that I wrote for BTM back in 2007 addressed the potential dangers in forming preconceived ideas in bowling. It's a topic that I keep coming back to. Any time that a bowler shows up to bowl either in a league or a tournament with the idea that he has or is going to decide how to play the lanes, it's kind of like walking across a frozen lake without knowing if the ice is really strong enough to keep you from falling in. In a nutshell, the lanes tell us how they want to be played, not the other way around. This includes what ball to use, as well as what line to play. It's great that you were able to shoot 300 in the third game, but what about the first game? Could you have perhaps done a whole lot better than 160 the first game with a more aggressive ball, and changed later? Just some food for thought.

Mike White
02-05-2014, 09:31 AM
It's kind of ironic that the first article that I wrote for BTM back in 2007 addressed the potential dangers in forming preconceived ideas in bowling. It's a topic that I keep coming back to. Any time that a bowler shows up to bowl either in a league or a tournament with the idea that he has or is going to decide how to play the lanes, it's kind of like walking across a frozen lake without knowing if the ice is really strong enough to keep you from falling in. In a nutshell, the lanes tell us how they want to be played, not the other way around. This includes what ball to use, as well as what line to play. It's great that you were able to shoot 300 in the third game, but what about the first game? Could you have perhaps done a whole lot better than 160 the first game with a more aggressive ball, and changed later? Just some food for thought.

I know the 160 score sounds bad, and it appears there could be a lot of room for improvement, but let's walk thru the game, and the thought process I had which kept me from changing.

At end of Practice
Lane 31 was stand 28, slide 24, lay down 17, arrows 12-13, exit point (39 ft) 6
Lane 32 was stand 30, slide 26, lay down 19, arrows 14-15, exit point (39 ft) 8

Frame 1, Lane 32: Dead Flush 10 in the pit.
No need to adjust.

Frame 2, Lane 31: Ringing 10, Spare.
Release felt fine, so I chose not to adjust on just that one incident.

Frame 3, Lane 32: Dead Flush
Still no need to adjust.

Frame 4, Lane 31: Another ringing 10 pin, then I whiffed it.
After the 2nd 10 pin I wanted to tighten up the line so I moved just my feet one right.

Frame 5, Lane 32: Pocket 7-10, covered the 7.
Again I felt fine, just a bad break so no adjustment

Frame 6, Lane 31: Solid 8. Spare.
I guess this just isn't my night, no adjustment.

Frame 7, Lane 32: 2-4-8 (10 fell late), spare.
Sent the ball a couple of boards wide.
Shouldn't have adjusted off a bad shot, but I decided to move right a board with my feet.

Frame 8, Lane 31: Flush, 10 in pit.
No adjustment

Frame 9, Lane 32: 4-6-7-10, covered 4-7
Missed target left, ball set on the oil line, then hooked onto nose.
decided to undo the adjustment after frame 7.

Frame 10, Lane 31: Ring 10, Spare, Flush 10 in pit.

This is why I said, the game was a lot better than the 160 score.

Game 2 was 9/ X 7/ 9/ 9/ 9/ 9/ X X X XX9 225

But I don't have a clear memory of what each shot was.

Mike White
02-05-2014, 10:29 AM
NICE shooting Mike!! Was that 300 in league?? I FRICKEN HOPE SO!! Regardless,,, nice shooting!

Yes is was sanctioned.. I opted for the 300 Crystal trophy since I already have the gold/diamond ring that the ABC made available in 1990.

My goal now is to get the 11 in a row award before it goes away. And the 800, but I guess I should shoot at least a 700 this season first.

I shot a 299 on 3/5/90, the 10th Monday of the year, so maybe on 3/10/14 I'll hit the 11 in a row.

Mike White
02-05-2014, 11:07 AM
It's kind of ironic that the first article that I wrote for BTM back in 2007 addressed the potential dangers in forming preconceived ideas in bowling. It's a topic that I keep coming back to. Any time that a bowler shows up to bowl either in a league or a tournament with the idea that he has or is going to decide how to play the lanes, it's kind of like walking across a frozen lake without knowing if the ice is really strong enough to keep you from falling in. In a nutshell, the lanes tell us how they want to be played, not the other way around. This includes what ball to use, as well as what line to play.

I completely agree with your idea. I fully accept that my situation is an outlier.

I've just never run into a condition (while I was healthy) where I couldn't hook a "spare" ball like most others hook resin balls.

I learned to hook the ball back in the blue/white/yellow dot days, when 99% of my opponents were playing straight up the boards.

I constantly heard, you can't be consistent while crossing that many boards, yet I collected side pot after side pot from these people.

Back then I trained my hand to swing the ball from 15 to the ditch, and back.

With the modern ball, you need much less hand to play the same line. I've learned I'm far less consistent trying to use much less hand.
Using the modern ball I got my average up to 190, but that was mainly due to my spare shooting abilities. I was leaving about four 9 counts for each strike on average.

So for me the solution is to use much less ball.
I may not be able to hit the pocket quite as hard as some others with a resin ball, but I also don't deplete the oil on the lane anywhere near what a resin ball does.

RobLV1
02-05-2014, 12:35 PM
Let's take a look at your 160 game:

At end of Practice
Lane 31 was stand 28, slide 24, lay down 17, arrows 12-13, exit point (39 ft) 6
Lane 32 was stand 30, slide 26, lay down 19, arrows 14-15, exit point (39 ft) 8

Frame 1, Lane 32: Dead Flush 10 in the pit.
No need to adjust.

Frame 2, Lane 31: Ringing 10, Spare.
Release felt fine, so I chose not to adjust on just that one incident.
Would a more aggressive ball found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?

Frame 3, Lane 32: Dead Flush
Still no need to adjust.

Frame 4, Lane 31: Another ringing 10 pin, then I whiffed it.
Would a more aggressive ball have found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?
After the 2nd 10 pin I wanted to tighten up the line so I moved just my feet one right.

Frame 5, Lane 32: Pocket 7-10, covered the 7.
Pocket 7-10, ball hit like a marshmallow, need I say more?
Again I felt fine, just a bad break so no adjustment

Frame 6, Lane 31: Solid 8. Spare.
In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.
I guess this just isn't my night, no adjustment.

Frame 7, Lane 32: 2-4-8 (10 fell late), spare.
Sent the ball a couple of boards wide.
Shouldn't have adjusted off a bad shot, but I decided to move right a board with my feet. Uh, oh!

Frame 8, Lane 31: Flush, 10 in pit.
No adjustment

Frame 9, Lane 32: 4-6-7-10, covered 4-7
Missed target left, ball set on the oil line, then hooked onto nose.
decided to undo the adjustment after frame 7. If a one board adjustment gets you the BIG FOUR, then you are either using the wrong ball or playing the wrong line, or both.

Frame 10, Lane 31: Ring 10, Spare, Flush 10 in pit.

MICHAEL: I'm really not trying to be difficult, but to really raise your bowling to the next level, you, like many bowlers, need to lose the idea that bowling is mainly luck. It's not. There is no such thing as leaving a single pin in the back row standing that doesn't have a correctable reason. The same goes for the "dreaded" pocket seven-ten split. That split is virtually always caused by playing a line that is burned up, or totally losing the ball at the release point, or both.

Aslan
02-05-2014, 08:11 PM
My goal now is to get the 11 in a row award before it goes away. And the 800, but I guess I should shoot at least a 700 this season first.

I agree with both those statements. I'd really like to get a 700 series and really, really want an 11-in-a-row before the award goes away.

Umm…MWhite!!?? Are you mad at me or something?? I never hear from you anymore!! I'm thinking of coming out to see you to have a ball drilled later this month or early next month. You still in business? Or now that you threw a 300 game you're too important to deal with riff raff like me?

Mike White
02-06-2014, 04:56 AM
Let's take a look at your 160 game:

At end of Practice
Lane 31 was stand 28, slide 24, lay down 17, arrows 12-13, exit point (39 ft) 6
Lane 32 was stand 30, slide 26, lay down 19, arrows 14-15, exit point (39 ft) 8

Frame 1, Lane 32: Dead Flush 10 in the pit.
No need to adjust.

Frame 2, Lane 31: Ringing 10, Spare.
Release felt fine, so I chose not to adjust on just that one incident.
Would a more aggressive ball found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?

Frame 3, Lane 32: Dead Flush
Still no need to adjust.

Frame 4, Lane 31: Another ringing 10 pin, then I whiffed it.
Would a more aggressive ball have found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?
After the 2nd 10 pin I wanted to tighten up the line so I moved just my feet one right.

Frame 5, Lane 32: Pocket 7-10, covered the 7.
Pocket 7-10, ball hit like a marshmallow, need I say more?
Again I felt fine, just a bad break so no adjustment

Frame 6, Lane 31: Solid 8. Spare.
In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.
I guess this just isn't my night, no adjustment.

Frame 7, Lane 32: 2-4-8 (10 fell late), spare.
Sent the ball a couple of boards wide.
Shouldn't have adjusted off a bad shot, but I decided to move right a board with my feet. Uh, oh!

Frame 8, Lane 31: Flush, 10 in pit.
No adjustment

Frame 9, Lane 32: 4-6-7-10, covered 4-7
Missed target left, ball set on the oil line, then hooked onto nose.
decided to undo the adjustment after frame 7. If a one board adjustment gets you the BIG FOUR, then you are either using the wrong ball or playing the wrong line, or both.

Frame 10, Lane 31: Ring 10, Spare, Flush 10 in pit.

MICHAEL: I'm really not trying to be difficult, but to really raise your bowling to the next level, you, like many bowlers, need to lose the idea that bowling is mainly luck. It's not. There is no such thing as leaving a single pin in the back row standing that doesn't have a correctable reason. The same goes for the "dreaded" pocket seven-ten split. That split is virtually always caused by playing a line that is burned up, or totally losing the ball at the release point, or both.

I understand words can be interpreted many ways, so let me show you a video that gives you a better idea of what my bowling style looks like.

I haven't had the opportunity video my bowling recently but it feels similar to this video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Mc4QRZW3M)

This video documented my situation at approximately 6 weeks after returning to the sport.

I had approximately a 15-20 year absence from the game.

While I was attempting to throw the ball like I had in the late 80's, I had some issues with the delivery. Mainly the early release while the ball was still in the downward portion of the swing.

I don't feel this video includes 12 great shots. There are at least 3 that were total crap.

Shortly after the video I sustained an arm injury.

I tried to find an alternate method of throwing the "modern" ball while not causing more pain in my arm. I documented this attempt here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcwa4n6pUv8)

After a year+ of trying to learn what the "modern" bowling ball wants, I've decided I can't produce it anywhere near as consistent/effective as what I do with an "old school" ball.

Now lets get to your comments.

Would a more aggressive ball have found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?

I wish you would be a little more accurate with your words. There is no "pocket" behind the head pin.

The pocket is the location that the ball must make contact with the headpin such that it drives the headpin directly towards the 7 pin. The headpin hits the 2 pin, which in turn hits the 4 pin, and the 4 into the 7 pin.

If that sequence of events doesn't occur you at best hit near the pocket, or one or more pins were off spot.

The 10 pin leave (once the ball has hit the head pin properly) is caused by too much deflection to the right.

The difference between a weak 10, and a ring 10 is only the quantity of deflection.

If I had a more aggressive ball:

The ball would have followed a different path contacting the head pin in a less than optimal location.
What ball would you suggest as more aggressive than the Polar Ice?
Many balls would qualify, but they would also be considered significantly more aggressive.
What would be "slightly" more aggressive?

Pocket 7-10, ball hit like a marshmallow, need I say more?

I think you are projecting onto my description what you expect to see when others leave a 7-10.
Since I don't have video of the shot I can't prove to you that it wasn't a "marshmallow"
But take my word for it, it wasn't.
What you describe is when the 5 pin slides towards, but doesn't knock down the 7 pin.
My 5 pin was driven into the 8 pin.

In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.

What is your criteria for "modern" bowling?
The ball always deflects off the head pin. That is pure physics.
When it comes to the "true tap" you have to determine what happens to the head pin after it hits the 2 pin.
If it gets between the ball and the 5 pin, it can cause the 5 pin to move to the right a little before the ball contacts the 5 pin, and then the ball drives the 5 pin just to the right of the 8 pin.
If you have the opportunity to see some video of "old school" solid 8 pins, you will see the 5 pin is moved before the ball contacts it.

Also since I'm using a urethane covered, pancake weight block ball, I don't think my shot falls under the new criteria for modern bowling's true taps.

If a one board adjustment gets you the BIG FOUR, then you are either using the wrong ball or playing the wrong line, or both.

Nice try, but you must have overlooked where I said I missed my target left. It was the combination of the one board adjustment, and the 2-3 board tug.
I indicated that the ball set on the oil line (10 board on a THS), rather than arced out thru 8 board at 39 feet.


MICHAEL: I'm really not trying to be difficult, but to really raise your bowling to the next level, you, like many bowlers, need to lose the idea that bowling is mainly luck. It's not. There is no such thing as leaving a single pin in the back row standing that doesn't have a correctable reason. The same goes for the "dreaded" pocket seven-ten split. That split is virtually always caused by playing a line that is burned up, or totally losing the ball at the release point, or both.

Ok it's the 5th frame of the 1st game. Nobody is playing anywhere near as deep as I am, and I'm using a urethane ball. I think we can eliminate the idea that the line was burned up.
I will concede that I may not have hit the ball as cleanly as the previous strike shots on that lane. (my feel is just beginning to return) However if I had "totally lost the ball at release" I wouldn't have even hit the head pin.

Looking at the last shot in the first video I linked to. Explain the "correctable reason" for the 7 pin.
I have my idea of what the reason was, but I'd like to hear yours.

Oh BTW, that first video, the ball being used is a #15 Columbia 300 White Dot.

Mike White
02-06-2014, 05:02 AM
I agree with both those statements. I'd really like to get a 700 series and really, really want an 11-in-a-row before the award goes away.

Umm…MWhite!!?? Are you mad at me or something?? I never hear from you anymore!! I'm thinking of coming out to see you to have a ball drilled later this month or early next month. You still in business? Or now that you threw a 300 game you're too important to deal with riff raff like me?

No, I was always too important to deal with riff raft like you :)

BTW when are we going to have that shootout?

On wood?

And how did the other shootout go with the guy in San Diego?

BTW when you came to my place and we bowled, you saw me unsuccessfully trying to throw the modern ball.
It's nothing like what I'm doing now.

Mike White
02-06-2014, 05:23 AM
I like this post because he did it OLD SKOOL. So what are we talking here? Were you playing 2nd arrow? Straight shot? A little "flare" at the end?

From your summary, it sounds like you played you line and waited for it to work as oil got moved around. Or did you make a minor adjustment after game 2?? Inquiring minds want to know!!?

Storm is probably not going to want to publicize the 300 game though. They kinda have a vested interest in people buying BYTEs and IQs and Zero Gravitys....they don't want a bunch of potential customers pulling Polar Ices out of their closet.

But MOST importantly...welcome back Mr. Mike. I've been wondering where you've been hiding. I'm gonna be giving you a call in a couple weeks to set up a time to have a ball drilled. The Frantic is nearing semi-retirement and I want to have you tri-grip drill my Slingshot.

Ok I guess I missed this post somehow.

Old school in equipment only.

The influences in my style (from PBA TV) were people like Mark Roth (the amount of energy put into the ball), Marshal Holman (fast feet, long slide, release during the slide), Mike Aulby (pure consistency), Steve Cook (high revs), John Gant (even higher revs).

Since there wasn't anyone inside of my line in the heads, and no one near my line at the break point, and I wasn't throwing a ball that absorbed oil, the shot stayed pretty much the same all 3 games.

MICHAEL
02-06-2014, 07:32 AM
No, I was always too important to deal with riff raft like you :)

BTW when are we going to have that shootout?

On wood?

And how did the other shootout go with the guy in San Diego?

BTW when you came to my place and we bowled, you saw me unsuccessfully trying to throw the modern ball.
It's nothing like what I'm doing now.

I believe the guy from San Diego...........

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/2697584c-f124-4261-8095-c242d27bafb2_zpse69a2293.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/2697584c-f124-4261-8095-c242d27bafb2_zpse69a2293.jpg.html)


OUT!!

RobLV1
02-06-2014, 07:43 AM
Okay, Mike, I was just trying to help. Use your Polar ICE and enjoy your bowling.

Rob Mautner

MICHAEL
02-06-2014, 07:48 AM
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif.html)

Iceman likes!! Mike vs Rob..... who is right? Is Rob a little condescending to Mike? Is Mike upset with the demeanor of Rob? Is Mike right, is Rob right...... tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!!

I for ONE can't wait!!!

RobLV1
02-06-2014, 08:27 AM
Mike: If I had actually posted the two paragraphs that I had initially written, THAT would have been condescending. As it is, I'm serious. Enjoy your bowling. After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

MICHAEL
02-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Mike: If I had actually posted the two paragraphs that I had initially written, THAT would have been condescending. As it is, I'm serious. Enjoy your bowling. After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Which MIKE? MIke or MIKE? Just to keep things clear, call me Iceman if you would. I am just a observer, observing.

Why did you change you mind and decided not to condesend? condescending can be a useful tool used to get your point across, when used with several analogies.

I am just watching the ....

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e97/WiggleyPooh/cat-fight.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/WiggleyPooh/media/cat-fight.jpg.html)

RobLV1
02-06-2014, 11:36 AM
Iceman: Fair enough. What I was going to say in a nutshell was the fact that you bowled a 300 game and could not post a 700 series was plenty proof enough that you had the wrong ball in your hand, at least for the first game. See why I deleted it?

Mike White
02-06-2014, 01:16 PM
Okay, Mike, I was just trying to help. Use your Polar ICE and enjoy your bowling.

Rob Mautner

Just trying to help?

You were preaching your dogma.


Would a more aggressive ball found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?

How was this question intended to be helpful?
First it implies that the ball entered the pocket "behind the head pin".
That is total BS.

Yes a more aggressive ball would have found more friction.
But what more aggressive ball would have found a little more friction?

While the answer would at first glance appear to be yes. With a little more thought, I would say No.

A more aggressive ball would have found a lot more friction.


Pocket 7-10, ball hit like a marshmallow, need I say more?

Well, if you had any evidence that my shot hit like a marshmallow, then maybe you wouldn't need to say more.

But you just leave the question hanging out there with an assumed answer.

Not really helpful is it?


In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.

You make a statement, that doesn't apply to the situation, because I'm not using the "modern" equipment.
The pins are still in the same location as pre-modern.

Helpful or preaching?


Uh, oh!

Helpful? if anything you are agreeing with my assessment that I shouldn't have made an adjustment based on an errant shot.


If a one board adjustment gets you the BIG FOUR, then you are either using the wrong ball or playing the wrong line, or both.

You didn't factor in my description of the errant target so that you could use the results as evidence of using the wrong ball.

Helpful or preaching?

As someone who writes about not using preconceived ideas, it's odd you've pretty much locked on to the "wrong" ball theory like a dog with a bone.

Aslan
02-06-2014, 02:48 PM
No, I was always too important to deal with riff raft like you :)
Dick


BTW when are we going to have that shootout?

On wood?
You COCKY SOB!! So you throw ONE 300 game and now you're challenging the GREAT ASLAN for Southern California dominance!??? Wow.


And how did the other shootout go with the guy in San Diego?
The "Aslan vs ZDawg Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Championship/Palooza is scheduled for Temecula on March 1st. So, it hasn't completed yet.


BTW when you came to my place and we bowled, you saw me unsuccessfully trying to throw the modern ball.
It's nothing like what I'm doing now.

I hope not. I expect a challenge.

Anytime after March 1st...but NOT the weekend of the 22nd where I'll be dominating my league and winning $$$ in Vegas...I would be HAPPY to ablige the GREAT Mike White and get a 1st Annual Phillip Seymour Hoffman Memorial Orange County Championship/Palooza started with you versus me. However, unlike ZDawg who I am graciously GIVING 10 pins per game to...I expect that great Mike White will be giving ME a bit of pins in handicap since I carry a 144-169 average and have been bowling 6 months where as his highness is a 300 game rolling 35 year veteran sporting a 200+ average. I'll settle for 35 pins per game in YOUR house or 20 pins on wood lanes. But realize, wood lanes disappear in April...FYI.

But seriously, PM me your schedule for March/April because I need to have you tri-grip drill my Slingshot. I'm going to semi-retire the Frantic after league ends and need a back-up ball.


http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif.html)

Iceman likes!! Mike vs Rob..... who is right? Is Rob a little condescending to Mike? Is Mike upset with the demeanor of Rob? Is Mike right, is Rob right...... tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!!

I for ONE can't wait!!!

You just like to start ***T. But thats cool. I get accused of starting ***t all the time.

Rob is what I call a "paradox". And he's not "unique" in that way. What I mean by this is, I find many high level bowlers to have this "issue" (good or bad).

First, the praise:
Rob is AWESOME. Sites like this one and others LOVE to have a guy like Rob...because they provide a level of inside knowledge and experience that even an experienced amateur tournament player or league player simply doesn't have. So many, many responses to him will be SUPER positive...because no matter whether you agree or disagree...when you see a post by "RobLV1" you're OPENING it!! I PERSONALLY have found his articles and input to be VERY helpful. I am especially impressed with his knowledge of ball specifications and that type of thing.

BUT (as Bowl1820 would say after hinting towards a non-COMPLETE dislike of Aslan)....

I've found that experts and pros...in bowling and I'm sure other sports as well....tend to not like being disagreed with. They "tend" to think their opinions are infallible. And it's NOT just Rob. I've interacted with at LEAST FOUR pros/semi-pros/etc.. and ALL of them to varying degrees have a sort of "disinterest" in competing theories. The first time I interacted with Joe Slowinski...I wanted to hit him in the face. He came off as the most smug, disinterested, self important pr*ck. But...sometimes us "lowly beginner bowlers" have to take a step back...cherish the input...and take a breath.

I've found Rob's input awesome. I love having him here and reading his stuff elsewhere. I agree with "some" of it. And I keep an open mind about the stuff I'm not so sure about. Yoú'd be surprised what an open mind can do for your game. That being said, I don't buy into "arsenals". I don't think traditional "stroking" is dead. And when Rob acts overly aggressive or (dare I say) "snarky" towards posters that disagree with one or more of his premises...I can see how that can be aggravating.

I worked with a pro a couple times...and he was a nice guy and he was great and helped my game...but the ONE criticism I had of him...he didn't "listen". Now, he's a pro...one would argue...he doesn't need to listen to me and I should shut up and listen to him. But a good teacher/instructor has to have good 2-way dialougue (in my opinion) to be truly great at instruction. If you just want to shout dogma and expect everyone to listen and not question....thats not teaching. There may be something the student is struggling with in trying to implement your game/style...and simply "listening" will help you get that student to the next level.

If I were Rob...and I heard Mike's story...I wouldn't respond to it as if it's some "shot over the bow" and an insult to his modern bowling theories. I'd instead take in WHY Mike bowls like that...where he's seeing success and failures...and maybe adapt your hints/input to his game. I know if it were ME (if I were Mike)...I'd be much more receptive to suggestions on modern bowling techniques to improve his game an convert him to a "transitional" bowler if they were phrased in a way that praised his accomplishment and offered just a couple hints/tidbits...rather than the way the post read, which was..."your accompishment is meaningless...and it must have been dumb luck since bowling with one urethane ball straight at the pocket is an abortion of a strategy."

Mike criticizes and jabs at my game all the time. But I'm rather rare in that I strive on that criticism. If Mike says I'll never be a good bowler "chucking it"....I'm hell bent on proving him wrong. If Rob says I'm dumb for not using a plastic spare ball....then dammit...I'll use a reactive resin ball and work, work, work to prove him wrong. That DOESN'T mean....I'm so stubborn and pig headed that I'll continue to bowl crappy just to try and "prove a point". At some point...I will concede the point if I find it to truly be a weakness. Like "chucking it"...once I played on heavy oil and saw my 182 average drop to a 118 average...and realizing it was because of my insistence on that style...I conceded, and began working on an earlier release. Now that average has evened out to a 140-170...and rising.

Aslan
02-06-2014, 02:50 PM
Wow. That was longer than I meant it to be. Mudpuppy is gonna hate it. DHoff "would" hate it....but it's invisible to him.

RobLV1
02-07-2014, 08:56 AM
Wow, "snarky," great word! Anyway, Aslan, thank you for the honest imput. If I seem to get frustrated when someone disagrees with me, it's because I do. It's not because I think I'm always right. I'm not (just ask my wife). My opinions do differ from most of the other posters here because they are based on a combination of research (what the "experts" say), education (what the powers that be say), experience (what I have found to be true for me as a bowler), and most importantly, observation (what have I seen in other bowlers). When I make a suggestion, it's often taken as confrontational by bowlers who stubbornly hang on to beliefs that are no longer relevant because of changes in the game. When I suggest, for instance, that bowlers can benefit from learning to work the inside of the ball, it's not because I think it's "better," it because the nature of modern synthetic lanes, reactive bowling balls, and dancing pins require that bowler's be able to project the ball out and down the lane to take full advantage of the modern conditions.

Great games can still be bowled using "old fashioned" urethane bowling balls, it happens all the time. But when I observe, time after time, the frustrations of bowlers who want great games all the time, who finally come to the realization that to bowl great games all the time they have to modernize their games and learn about bowling balls, I try to save them some time and lots of aggrevation.

Personally, I don't much like lugging five or six balls to bowl. The day before yesterday I was able to average 235 for four games using the same ball on two pairs of lanes and never moving more than three boards. Yesterday, at the same bowling center, I used five different bowling balls on two pairs of lanes and averaged 188. When, in the seventh frame of the final game, I pulled out the fifth ball, a ball that I rarely use and rarely have with me, I finally found something that worked. Did it salvage my set? No, I tried it too late. Did I learn something for next time? You betcha! Using multiple bowling balls is a necessity in modern bowling. Like it or not (most of us don't), it is a fact.

Finally, as I said earlier in this thread, the physical basics of bowling have not changed much. When I suggest that bowlers learn to work the inside of the ball it's not because you have to do that to bowl well on all conditions, but you do have to learn to keep your hand behind the ball rather than coming over the top of it. Coming over the top is not traditional bowling, it just bad bowling. It was in 1975, and it is today. My point was, and is, that if you are coming over the top of the ball and want to improve, you might just as well learn to work the inside of the ball as the outside of the ball.

Aslan, thank you for the kind words. I'm glad my efforts to help bowlers here are appreciated for the most part. Please be aware that if and when I sometimes come accross as condescending it is in no way intentional, just my way of venting some of my frustrations. When I make a suggestion that disagrees with someone's "belief," it is not an attack on the belief, just looking at it from a different perspective.

Mudpuppy
02-07-2014, 03:15 PM
Wow. That was longer than I meant it to be. Mudpuppy is gonna hate it. DHoff "would" hate it....but it's invisible to him.

You got that right - I skipped it. Lost interest at "dick".

It's the year of the horse - time to minimize EVERYTHING, i.e. continuous improvement. I am in the process of cleaning everything out and only keeping what is absolutely of value. Minimize. In terms of posts that means think long and hard about what you want to say and say it in a sentence, 2 if it is super important. Paragraphs are for the dark ages kids.

Aslan
02-07-2014, 07:18 PM
Aslan, thank you for the kind words. I'm glad my efforts to help bowlers here are appreciated for the most part. Please be aware that if and when I sometimes come accross as condescending it is in no way intentional, just my way of venting some of my frustrations. When I make a suggestion that disagrees with someone's "belief," it is not an attack on the belief, just looking at it from a different perspective.

Well said. And you just need to understand that no matter how much some of us argue and disagree and sometimes punch each other in the nuts....having your input and Bowl1820's input and vDub's input and Janderson and swingset, etc... makes this whole forum better for everyone. I've learned a LOT!! I'm still stuck in my ways a "tad"....but I'm trying. I may "poo poo" modern bowling a bit...but that doesn't stop me from trying to keep my hand behind the ball more or experimenting with the more relaxed release that Barry Asher taught me nor experiment with the DYDS stuff from Joe Slowinski. I may appear to "not be listening"...but I'm listening. Like I said...disagree with you or not....I've read all your articles on your site.

dnhoffman
02-08-2014, 06:06 PM
Oh, the drama

Mike White
02-08-2014, 08:37 PM
Iceman: Fair enough. What I was going to say in a nutshell was the fact that you bowled a 300 game and could not post a 700 series was plenty proof enough that you had the wrong ball in your hand, at least for the first game. See why I deleted it?

We must have a completely different definition of the word proof.

I think the word you are intending to use is evidence.

Also, it can only be considered a "wrong ball" if I were to have another ball that would have worked in the first game.

I've bowled since the 300 game, and things are a little clearer.

I will say, when my body performed a I hope it will, I have the right ball in my hand.

Every time I released the ball in balance with a nice clean release, that shot resulted in a solid pocket strike.

The problem is, I've been a couch potato for far too many years for the body to perform properly a high percent of the nights shots.

Last Monday was kind of an anomaly.

Since I hadn't thrown many good shots previous to the 300 game, I probably couldn't recognize the feeling of the "perfect" walk, swing, release.

Somehow I managed to have at least that last 10 shots of what I call "tuning fork pure"

Now that I can recognize that feeling, I have a much better idea of the difference between what "pure" and "kinda close" feels like.

So, rather than say I had the wrong ball.. I'll stick with I had the wrong "body".

Mike White
02-08-2014, 08:53 PM
Dick


You COCKY SOB!! So you throw ONE 300 game and now you're challenging the GREAT ASLAN for Southern California dominance!??? Wow.


The "Aslan vs ZDawg Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Championship/Palooza is scheduled for Temecula on March 1st. So, it hasn't completed yet.



I hope not. I expect a challenge.

Anytime after March 1st...but NOT the weekend of the 22nd where I'll be dominating my league and winning $$$ in Vegas...I would be HAPPY to ablige the GREAT Mike White and get a 1st Annual Phillip Seymour Hoffman Memorial Orange County Championship/Palooza started with you versus me. However, unlike ZDawg who I am graciously GIVING 10 pins per game to...I expect that great Mike White will be giving ME a bit of pins in handicap since I carry a 144-169 average and have been bowling 6 months where as his highness is a 300 game rolling 35 year veteran sporting a 200+ average. I'll settle for 35 pins per game in YOUR house or 20 pins on wood lanes. But realize, wood lanes disappear in April...FYI.

But seriously, PM me your schedule for March/April because I need to have you tri-grip drill my Slingshot. I'm going to semi-retire the Frantic after league ends and need a back-up ball.


I'm not scheduled to work on March 1st. Give me the time, and I'll try to make it there so we can kill two birds on one day.
I'm pretty sure the Bowling Center is owned by the same guy who owns the one I have the shop in.
Not that it would give me any advantage.
I can't even get the mechanic where I'm at to tell me the oil pattern.
I think it's mainly because he doesn't know.

My hours for the for March are
Sunday: 3 - 8
Monday: 12 - 6
Tuesday: 12 - 8
Wednesday: 12 - 8
Thursday: 12 - 8
Friday: 3 - 7
Saturday: Closed

In April, the only change I foresee is changing Monday to 3 - 8

A side note. You refer to a "backup ball".
The bowling world has accepted the term backup ball, as to mean a reverse hook.
You might want to use the term "alternate" rather than "backup"

Just curious, at what point would this "backup ball" be put into service?
Damage to primary ball?
Primary ball not scoring well?
For Spare attempts best converted with a "straight" ball?

J Anderson
02-08-2014, 09:55 PM
So, rather than say I had the wrong ball.. I'll stick with I had the wrong "body".

Thanks Mike, this explains why I never played organized baseball, football, basketball, soccer, tennis, or lacrosse.

For bowling I'll stick with my theory of an intermittent disconnect between my brain and my left hand.

tccstudent
02-08-2014, 10:13 PM
Maybe we could do a NE Oklahoma challenge there is three of us how bout it Jaescrub

Aslan
02-13-2014, 07:22 PM
I'm not scheduled to work on March 1st. Give me the time, and I'll try to make it there so we can kill two birds on one day.


Well thats not FAIR!! I'll be tired from bowling ZDawg!! Unless ZDawg wants to change it from the "Aslan vs ZDawg Billy Hardwick Memorial Souther California Championship" to the "Billy Hardwick Memorial/Southern California Invitational"...and thus all three of us can be invited. However, again, not only does that require zdawg approval...as co-founder of the challenge...but we'd have to agree on handicap. I'm giving zdawg 10 pins per game. I'd expect you to give me...on those lanes...57 pins per game and thus give zdawg 67 pins per game.

ZDawg, what do you think???


A side note. You refer to a "backup ball".
The bowling world has accepted the term backup ball, as to mean a reverse hook.
You might want to use the term "alternate" rather than "backup"

Just curious, at what point would this "backup ball" be put into service?
Damage to primary ball?
Primary ball not scoring well?
For Spare attempts best converted with a "straight" ball?

I call it a "back-up" ball because it is only used in one of THREE situations:
1) 90-97% of the time on "far right" spares. Single 10, 6-10, 6-9-10. Sometimes on a single-9.
2) 5-20% of splits where I can't get the right deflection from the right side...so I try to throw a straight shot up the left side (to deflect the pin to the right).
3) IF the lanes break down a great deal...or it's after a holiday weekend and they haven't been oiled, or after maybe as few as one game on wood lanes...then I'll use the back-up ball as a strike & spare ball. On synthetic lanes, I can usually stay with the Rhythm and just make minor adjustments in lateral position, speed, and/or release. But on wood lanes, the ball is already experiencing so much friction, even on fresh oil...and with the Rhythm having a matte/solid coverstock...I can't seem to play the inside line (especially on wood)...so I have to use the "back-up ball".

But I'll try to call it an "alternate ball" from now on. "spare ball" doesn't fit because there's only a few spares and some splits that I require a "spare ball". And of course...damage I guess. But usually I'm more likely to damage the "alternate ball" than the strike ball since the "alternate ball" is more likely to jetison itself into the gutter trying to hit that damn 10-pin.

zdawg
02-13-2014, 07:51 PM
Well thats not FAIR!! I'll be tired from bowling ZDawg!! Unless ZDawg wants to change it from the "Aslan vs ZDawg Billy Hardwick Memorial Souther California Championship" to the "Billy Hardwick Memorial/Southern California Invitational"...and thus all three of us can be invited. However, again, not only does that require zdawg approval...as co-founder of the challenge...but we'd have to agree on handicap. I'm giving zdawg 10 pins per game. I'd expect you to give me...on those lanes...57 pins per game and thus give zdawg 67 pins per game.

ZDawg, what do you think???

I'm down with that if he wants to be a part of this, also I'm interested in talking to somebody about this tri-grip I keep hearing about so yeah cool with me.

Mike White
02-14-2014, 12:51 AM
I'm down with that if he wants to be a part of this, also I'm interested in talking to somebody about this tri-grip I keep hearing about so yeah cool with me.

Going to have to pencil me out for at least a month or two.

I have a large bruise on the front of my bicep, and it's tight as hell.

I don't know if I can even throw a ball straight.

I guess the light at the end of the tunnel was actually an oncoming train.

Let me know the time, and I'll try to be there anyways.

Can swing by the casino afterwards and donate some $$ to the poker gods.

zdawg
02-14-2014, 02:46 AM
Going to have to pencil me out for at least a month or two.

I have a large bruise on the front of my bicep, and it's tight as hell.

I don't know if I can even throw a ball straight.

I guess the light at the end of the tunnel was actually an oncoming train.

Let me know the time, and I'll try to be there anyways.

Can swing by the casino afterwards and donate some $$ to the poker gods.

Ouch, sounds like it could be a partial biceps tear, I've done that before when I was younger in my powerlifting days and yeah its definitely best to lay off it for a while.

And yeah if you're interested in stopping by, we're shooting for Saturday March 1st, Temecula Lanes at approximately 11am. I'm driving up from downtown San Diego so I'll probably allow myself some extra time so I might show up a little earlier.

Mike White
02-14-2014, 01:18 PM
In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.[/COLOR]

What is your criteria for "modern" bowling?
The ball always deflects off the head pin. That is pure physics.
When it comes to the "true tap" you have to determine what happens to the head pin after it hits the 2 pin.
If it gets between the ball and the 5 pin, it can cause the 5 pin to move to the right a little before the ball contacts the 5 pin, and then the ball drives the 5 pin just to the right of the 8 pin.
If you have the opportunity to see some video of "old school" solid 8 pins, you will see the 5 pin is moved before the ball contacts it.


I was just watching the PBA Team competition from Sunday.

Mika left an 8 pin.

If you get a chance to slow-mo you will see exactly the description I gave above.

If you want to say something was wrong with the shot, it hit the head pin fractionally too high.

Not enough to break the 1 - 2 - 4 - 7 chain reaction.

Aslan
02-14-2014, 06:30 PM
Going to have to pencil me out for at least a month or two.

I have a large bruise on the front of my bicep, and it's tight as hell.

Wuss. Okay, so you're scared...whatever.



I don't know if I can even throw a ball straight.
That was in question before the bruise.



Let me know the time, and I'll try to be there anyways.
11:00AM, Saturday March 1st, Temecula Lanes

If you're not bowling, you could maybe be our videographer and provide commentary. I'll even go so far as to say "expert commentary". But this is going on my Youtube account so don't do anything weird. If I go through the memory card and find pictures of your junk...I'm going to be highly unamused. Those type of things will be editied out and available by request (I'm sure Iceman will ask).

Or you can just sit in the audience section and cheer for zDawg. But NO COACHING!! Coaching DURING the match is highly prohibited under the USBC guidelines. Or at least the amendments I've made to them for this tournament.



Can swing by the casino afterwards and donate some $$ to the poker gods.

We might be done in time for the Saturday tournament. It'll be close though. I think Saturday poker tournaments generally start at 2PM. So if we start by 11:30, we should be done by 1:30...and get there in time. And I don't bother with the cash games because they have no table limits...so guys can just dominate the action by bringing a **** ton of money with them. They "might" have table limits on the $1/$3 table, but even there i think it's super high, like $1000. Unproportioned chip stacks are very dangerous in no-limit hold-em.

Mike White
02-28-2014, 01:02 PM
I was starting to get a little paranoid.

It took a seeming long time for my score to show up on Bowl.com.

I shot mine on the 3rd, and someone I know had their score on the 15th show up sooner.

USBC 1560-11073

Mike White
03-08-2014, 04:50 PM
In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.


What is your criteria for "modern" bowling?
The ball always deflects off the head pin. That is pure physics.
When it comes to the "true tap" you have to determine what happens to the head pin after it hits the 2 pin.
If it gets between the ball and the 5 pin, it can cause the 5 pin to move to the right a little before the ball contacts the 5 pin, and then the ball drives the 5 pin just to the right of the 8 pin.
If you have the opportunity to see some video of "old school" solid 8 pins, you will see the 5 pin is moved before the ball contacts it.

I found a video online that demonstrates exactly what I described above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uNVDGkJORc

Mike White
03-19-2014, 06:14 AM
Ok I guess I missed this post somehow.

Old school in equipment only.

The influences in my style (from PBA TV) were people like Mark Roth (the amount of energy put into the ball), Marshal Holman (fast feet, long slide, release during the slide), Mike Aulby (pure consistency), Steve Cook (high revs), John Gant (even higher revs).

Since there wasn't anyone inside of my line in the heads, and no one near my line at the break point, and I wasn't throwing a ball that absorbed oil, the shot stayed pretty much the same all 3 games.

Coincidence. Yesterday 3/17/14, I went to my distributor to pick up some merchandise, and there was someone there who looked familiar.
It was Steve Cook.
Seems the owner of the business wanted to retire, and sold it to Steve.

Aslan
03-19-2014, 07:12 PM
Coincidence. Yesterday 3/17/14, I went to my distributor to pick up some merchandise, and there was someone there who looked familiar.
It was Steve Cook.
Seems the owner of the business wanted to retire, and sold it to Steve.

Did he ask you if you knew the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Invitational Champion "Aslan"??? Did he ask where he finished in the ultimate fantasy bowling tournament that I ran recently

? I don't remember where he finished...but I think he made it out of the first round at least.

Mike White
03-19-2014, 07:23 PM
Did he ask you if you knew the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Invitational Champion "Aslan"??? Did he ask where he finished in the ultimate fantasy bowling tournament that I ran recently

? I don't remember where he finished...but I think he made it out of the first round at least.

For whatever reason, I don't think you were on his radar.

Time for you to hire a better publicist.

Aslan
03-19-2014, 07:33 PM
For whatever reason, I don't think you were on his radar.

Time for you to hire a better publicist.

Well, if you see him again, let him know that he fell to Rhino Page in the Sweet 16:

MIDWEST REGION#14 Seed Rhino Page defeats #7 Seed Steve Cook 268-190

Mike White
07-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Yes is was sanctioned.. I opted for the 300 Crystal trophy since I already have the gold/diamond ring that the ABC made available in 1990.

My goal now is to get the 11 in a row award before it goes away. And the 800, but I guess I should shoot at least a 700 this season first.

I shot a 299 on 3/5/90, the 10th Monday of the year, so maybe on 3/10/14 I'll hit the 11 in a row.

Less than a month before the 11 in a row award goes away, and on Sunday I find myself with a spare, and a ten bagger.

On the last shot I left a 4 pin for 289. Probably the most disappointing 9 count since I've come back to bowling.

At least I managed to shoot 700 this time.

rv driver
07-15-2014, 02:07 PM
Less than a month before the 11 in a row award goes away, and on Sunday I find myself with a spare, and a ten bagger.

On the last shot I left a 4 pin for 289. Probably the most disappointing 9 count since I've come back to bowling.

At least I managed to shoot 700 this time.
That's great, Mike! Wow! The highest I've ever shot is 250. That was in 1984.

Aslan
07-16-2014, 11:27 AM
Less than a month before the 11 in a row award goes away,


I KNOW!! And I really want one before it goes away. But I'll need to throw 8-in-a-row before I start worrying about 11. Nice shootin!