There are no miracle balls to correct a lousy release.........

[Hammer]

There are some folks that think that if they buy an expensive hook monster ball that it will correct the lousy release they have. No matter what ball you use you have to have the right release and target on the alley to make it work like it was made to work. Not only that you have to get the right ball for the type of oil condition you will be bowling on.

A pro shop can make ball recommendations for you by telling you what balls are good for heavy oil, medium oil, sport oil patterns and THS patterns. No ball can correct a broken wrist over the top ball release. You will have to learn to try and stay on the inside of the ball with you fingertips below the equator of the ball until you near the release area. Only after your thumb comes out of the ball quickly can yo uncup your wrist and make the slight turn of your hand to give the ball the good revs it needs to get a solid hit on the pocket.

Seeing that I do not bowl for a living or practice much anymore because of body issues I know what to do as far as technique goes for a good release but sometimes as soon as the ball comes off my hand it sends a signal to my brain that the release did not come off well. Even on my bad releases I do not leave terrible spare shots like the Greek church or 7-10 splits.

On my approach my concentration is focused on keeping my wrist straight or a little cupped on my backswing and into my forward swing until my thumb comes out then I uncup or break the wrist and at the same time give my hand the slight turn and let the ball go down the alley. Any ball you use will look great when you can get this right. Then and only then will the ball you are using work like it was made to plus targeting correctly on the alley for the lane condition you are bowling on. THE END.

[RobLV1]

How right you are. I once heard it said that there are 21 elements that make up the physical game of bowling. 20 of them count for 2 1/2 % each. The other 50% is the release. The belief that one ball hooks more than another is a fallacy. One ball may hook earlier than another, but it does not change direction more, only sooner. The only thing that makes one ball hook more than another is the release of the bowler. That's why working on developing a modern release is an activity that will be richly rewarded - if you have the patience and work ethic to do it.

Rob Mautner

[MICHAEL]

I agree Rob, and have said as much in several other threads! There is NO MAGIC BALL, but there can be magic when a ball is in the hands of a Gifted bowler! Even in the hands of a gifted bowler, the magic doesn't happen as much as one would like, but when it does, nirvana,,, Magic!

[Mike White]

How right you are. I once heard it said that there are 21 elements that make up the physical game of bowling. 20 of them count for 2 1/2 % each. The other 50% is the release. The belief that one ball hooks more than another is a fallacy. One ball may hook earlier than another, but it does not change direction more, only sooner. The only thing that makes one ball hook more than another is the release of the bowler. That's why working on developing a modern release is an activity that will be richly rewarded - if you have the patience and work ethic to do it.

Rob Mautner

How do you define a quantity of hook?

I would submit heading as it enters the playing surface, vs heading as it exits the playing surface.

I like how you tack that last bit on at the end.

If anyone doesn't agree with you they must be impatient and unwilling to work for the results.

How do you differentiate a modern release from a non-modern release?

[RobLV1]

I define the quantity of hook as the angle of the change of direction from the initial line upon which the ball is thrown, until it completes its turn toward the pins. As long as bowlers use this definition of hook, they will not be lured into buying a ball that "hooks more" because they will understand that balls only hook earlier or later, not more or less.

As for your question about the modern release, I think I've stated the differences enough times, and I'm really not inclined to start knocking my head against that stone wall again. It really has nothing to do with agreeing with me or not agreeing with me. I'm really tired of you trying to egg me on into one of your silly arguments. I'm not going there again.

[sprocket]

C'mon Rob. Plastic hooks less than reactive on long oil. Period. Are you really going to tell a new bowler to just go ahead and buy a cheap plastic ball because it hooks the same as any other ball, just later? It hooks later alright. Like at 65ft.

[RobLV1]

My point exactly! A plastic cover on a bowling ball provides very little friction to slow it down enough to begin to hook, so it hooks at 65' which, for all intents and purposes on a 60' lane means that it goess straight. Please tell me what about a bowling ball makes it hook more than another bowling ball. There is nothing! The only factors involved in the physics of bowling balls that determine how much they hook are friction and resistence, and both of these factors only affect when the ball hooks, not how much it hooks. I'll say it once again: if you define total hook as the degree of the angle of the change of direction, then every bowling ball hooks the same amount based totally upon the release of the bowler. This is not to say that a bowler can't change his release to get more or less change of angle, of course he can. But, using the same release, any two balls will hook the same amount, only at different times.

[MICHAEL]

Rob thoughts.....

This is not to say that a bowler can't change his release to get more or less change of angle, of course he can. But, using the same release, any two balls will hook the same amount, only at different times.

We had a lady on our seniors league, that was one of the best female bowlers! SHE threw a very old plastic ball.

She had health issues, medium/slow speed, but did get decent revolutions. That plastic ball would go down the outside part of the lane and do a BEAUTIFUL HOOK into the pocket! It proved to me that even plastic can, under the right circumstances look like a asymmetrical ball drilled pin high!

She had at 73, so much hook on that ball that, her only problem was getting the TEN PIN!! LOL!!

YES a plastic ball, that should work on 10 pins, she would only pick up ONE out of a 100! She would always, ALWAY,,,,, miss it by a HUMAN HAIR!! EVERY TIME!!! It was fun to watch, and I did try to show her how to throw the ball with her palm up, (as I do to take the lateral spin out, that was giving her problems, due in part to her ball speed, and lateral spin) You know that saying you can't teach a .... .... ....

With her it was all about throwing that 10 year old plastic ball down the out side, decent revolutions, lower ball speed, Walla ,,, fair share of strikes!!!

She is, and was a wonderful person, and bowler,, I do miss bowing with the seniors! Only reason I left was it wasn't sanctioned.

PLASTIC WILL HOOK, and it did get the job done for her, on fresh house oil! As I said, one of the top female bowlers on that league.

[sprocket]

Well, you have made a very good point Rob and I completely get your point of view. Where I differ is that I believe a bowling lane is its own little universe that ball travels in. And in the long oil universe for certain bowler's who throw above a certain speed, plastic never hooks. It would have to enter another universe to hook and it doesn't. Within that realm, it doesn't hook because that realm doesn't have enough friction. Since that is the universe a bowler may be bowling in, a plastic ball will not hook. Ever.

The total amount a ball hooks can be limited by a 60' lane. If the lane was longer then, yes all balls would hook the same for a certain release at a certain speed. But the lane IS 60' long (give or take) and buying a ball for a desired amount of hook has to take that into account.

[Aslan]

She had at 73, so much hook on that ball that, her only problem was getting the TEN PIN!! LOL!!


I bowl with a lady right now that is a lefty version of that person. In her 60s-70s, virtually no speed, old 1993 urethane ball, helicoptor release. She is fairly accurate...scores in the 130s-160s consistently. Only trouble:

1) At that speed, no room for error because no pin carry.
2) Splits..LOTs of splits. 6 in one game is her current record.
3) Absolute INABILITY to pick up a 7-pin.

And like you Ice, I've tried to help her...because she can get so frustrated with leaving that 7-pin (which she does a LOT)...but at her age, with an ailing shoulder...it's tough. I don't want to give her any advice and have her hurt herself. And not to mention, a lot of times bowlers of that age will "say they want help" but they'll just throw the way they've always thrown at the end of the day. Hard to break 50 year habits.

I believe hook is a combination of a LOT of things. Mostly friction and revs. Friction is a combination of ball speed, coverstock, and lane conditions. Revs are a combination of release, ball core, and drilling. So I always find it curious when a person says they "need a ball that will hook more/less" or "you can't outbowl a bad ball reaction" since speed and release have nothing to do with the ball...and can be changed by the bowler. NOW...if you assume speed and release to be constants (as many people say, they don't want to have to change those things because it messes with timing and muscle memory, etc...)...then how much a ball hooks is 1/2 ball, 1/4 drilling, and 1/4 lane. If you assume that a driller can also change surfaces of a ball, then it's more like 3/8 ball, 3/8 drilling/surface changes, and 1/4 lane.

Thats how I currently justify buying older model balls based on price. I figure, AT MOST....the difference between one ball and the next (among reactive resin, modern balls) is only 25% of the equation MAXIMUM. Most will say it's MUCH less because release is being underestimated at 17% and since many balls are very similar in terms of cores and coverstocks...25% is a stretch.

Any thoughts (without starting WWIII) on those percentages??

[RobLV1]

sprocket: The bowling lane may be "its own little universe," but it still conforms to the laws of physics of the rest of the universe. The only place that a bowling ball will never hook is in the vaccuum of space where it will not encounter any friction at all. On the lane, in the oil, the ball encounters less friction than in the dry, but it still encounters some friction and, given enough time (length down the lane) will hook eventually though as you have said, it may be well past the pins in the case of a plastic ball.

Getting back to the original premise that the amount of angle change is totally dependent on the bowlers release, and everything else is how soon the ball hooks, I was thinking about this yesterday and came upon an example. Those of us who watched the PBA League telecast on Sunday saw a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Three of the bowlers; Sean Rash, Parker Bohn, and Walter Ray Williams were throwing the Brunswick Mastermind Genius, a very aggressive asymmetrical ball with an rg of 2.488 (early roll), and a differential of 0.052 (high flair potential). All three players, despite very different speeds and rev rates were able to use the ball, playinging somewhere between the second arrow and the fifth arrow. Jason Belmonte, on the other hand, was throwing a Rotogrip UpRoar, a non-aggressive symmetrical ball ball with an rg of 2.55 (late roll), and a differential of 0.030 (low flare potential), and yet he had to loft the left gutter cap because the ball was hooking so much that he couldn't keep it on the lane any other way. Why was this non-aggressive ball hooking so much for Belmonte? It was as a result of his release, combined with his ball speed and rev rate.

To get the most from the technology of modern bowling balls, the idea is that the bowler who can deliver the most power to the pins, wins. In the case above, Belmonte, because of his speed and rev rate was able to do this with a less aggressive ball than any of the others were using. In the cases of the senior ladies that you are trying to help, using plastic balls and playing outside in the friction may be their best alternative, though I have an idea that some qualified coaching may be able to get them more ball speed so that they could use more aggressive equipment. A bowler who puts in the effort to learn a modern release and how to move left so that he may play the oil, rather than the dry and use a more aggressive bowling ball, has a tremendous advantage. If you choose to use less aggressive equipment and play the friction, that's your choice, but please don't make it sound like some form of protest against all this "new-fangled technology" that has challenged the values that we have held for so long. Look at it for what it is: a last-ditch effort to resist change and stay in your comfort zone.

[sprocket]

I understand Rob. Thanks for all the comments.
On a slightly different topic (maybe). Sunday I went out to practice and could not carry. I already started a topic about it but to make a long story short, I went against the normal adjustment and moved way right into the friction for the last 5 games. My scores went way up while the other right hander started to struggle for reaction and was playing closer to third arrow. I was outside first arrow throwing a Strike Zone at 19mph wit a lot of forward roll. I think I was actually able to use the carry down for hold on shots missing slightly left. I had some area but not a ton. Mostly I was making very good shots and my entry angle was optimal for good carry.

[Mike White]

My point exactly! A plastic cover on a bowling ball provides very little friction to slow it down enough to begin to hook, so it hooks at 65' which, for all intents and purposes on a 60' lane means that it goess straight. Please tell me what about a bowling ball makes it hook more than another bowling ball. There is nothing! The only factors involved in the physics of bowling balls that determine how much they hook are friction and resistence, and both of these factors only affect when the ball hooks, not how much it hooks. I'll say it once again: if you define total hook as the degree of the angle of the change of direction, then every bowling ball hooks the same amount based totally upon the release of the bowler. This is not to say that a bowler can't change his release to get more or less change of angle, of course he can. But, using the same release, any two balls will hook the same amount, only at different times.

I think it's time you go take a refresher course in physics.

A plastic ball will hook just fine if you can achieve static friction, for most people, their rev rate vs ball speed does not give the ball time to achieve that state.

Different balls have different surface COF, and can achieve static friction for these people, and therefore hook more.

P.S. A ball doesn't NEED to slow down to begin to hook. That is a figment of your imagination.

On an early version of the C.A.T.S. system (1980's) my ball speed through the heads was 16 mph, and 17 mph entering the pins.

The reason for the increase in speed was due to the rev rate.

At 17 mph, static friction is achieved at about 675 rpm.

[Aslan]

To get the most from the technology of modern bowling balls, the idea is that the bowler who can deliver the most power to the pins, wins.

I see what you're saying...but I don't know if that is an absolute. What I mean is, I used to throw a 15lb ball 21mph and when I hit the headpin the pins "exploded". But I've seen people throw even harder/faster and leave splits and other spares. Pure physics will tell you that the momentum and force having to do with a ball of X weight at X speed...will result in more force/momentum...thus more "power" into the pins. But since the objective in bowling is not only to make them scatter but scatter in a way that sends them into certain other pins...angle to the pocket is just as if not more important than physical force/momentum. Is it not?

I watch a beginning bowler every week in league play and I want to just run over and shake him. He fires the ball at about 23mph in a straight line and sometimes it hits left, right, center...but he's HORRIBLE! Sure, he's throwing it HARDER than everyone else...but that isn't really the point of the game. Right?

And as I said about Belmo many times...IF you honestly believe 2-handed bowling provides a DISTINCT advantage in terms of pin carry and ultimately average/scoring/etc... THEN, players bowling 1-handed are choosing to put themselves at a disadvantage. It's simple FORTRAN logic. And I don't buy that. Time may tell...but I don't buy that.

[sprocket]

When I bowled my recent 800 I don't know if I would use the term "power" to describe how the ball went through the pins. The lanes were hooking more that day and my entry angle was just right. I was using more axis rotation than usual and the way the ball was rotating when it hit the pins was causing them to really interact with each other and not just blow off the deck. The pins really scattered around the pin deck on light hits too.

Now, this past Sunday was a different story. When I was playing way outside the ball did have tremendous power at the pins and they were gone in a hurry. I was using more speed and more forward roll. But I did leave some ringing tens. "Power" as I think of it, doesn't always mean the best carry, but I guess a person can define the word any way they want.

[Hampe]

And as I said about Belmo many times...IF you honestly believe 2-handed bowling provides a DISTINCT advantage in terms of pin carry and ultimately average/scoring/etc... THEN, players bowling 1-handed are choosing to put themselves at a disadvantage. It's simple FORTRAN logic. And I don't buy that. Time may tell...but I don't buy that.Belmo has an advantage because he still has a professional level of accuracy and consistency. All other things being equal (let's face it, all the high level pros are more or less equally accurate/consistent), having more power at the pins gives you an advantage.

Pretty much all two handed bowlers at our level sacrifice some amount of accuracy for power, which is why they don't necessarily have an advantage over us.

[vdubtx]

Belmo has an advantage because he still has a professional level of accuracy and consistency. All other things being equal (let's face it, all the high level pros are more or less equally accurate/consistent), having more power at the pins gives you an advantage.

Pretty much all two handed bowlers at our level sacrifice some amount of accuracy for power, which is why they don't necessarily have an advantage over us.

Saw something recently about different stats and the pro bowlers are, as you would expect, more accurate. The graphic I remember seeing was that the regular bowler can be accurate to within 3 or 4 boards and the pro is accurate to 1.2 boards down lane. There were lots of other stats on single pin spares and 10 pin or 7 pin pick ups etc. Will have to google a bit to find it again.

[Pauley]

Saw something recently about different stats and the pro bowlers are, as you would expect, more accurate. The graphic I remember seeing was that the regular bowler can be accurate to within 3 or 4 boards and the pro is accurate to 1.2 boards down lane. There were lots of other stats on single pin spares and 10 pin or 7 pin pick ups etc. Will have to google a bit to find it again.

If you find it please post it, sounds very interesting.

[bowl1820]

Here's "Don't settle for being average" from ABC's "American Bowler" Magazine Winter 2003 issue.

Don't settle for being average page 1 (http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3605/abpage01.jpg)

Don't settle for being average page 2 (http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8784/abpage02.jpg)

also
Click here for Performance based on skill (http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1778/performancebasedonskill.jpg)

also see
Click here for C.A.T.S = How Good Are You? (http://bowlingknowledge.info/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=38)


ESPN The Magazine Breaks Down PBA Spare Shooting
ESPN The Magazine included an analysis of the 20 most common spare attempts after breaking down video of PBA matches between 2005 and 2010.

Players threw strikes on 4,374 of 7,155 first-ball attempts (a 61.13% success rate), meaning they also had to make 2,781 spare attempts.

http://s5.postimg.org/vfenr7kg7/proconv.jpg

[mc_runner]

Thanks, bowl1820. That performance based on skill link is really interesting.

[vdubtx]

As usual, Bowl1820 comes through on the info!! Thanks. Very similar to what I saw.

[Pauley]

The fact that Bowl1820 has the amount of links, articles, files saved is impressive, but not nearly as impressive as being able to find it so readily. I imagine a full wall of card catalogs or duey decimal system (whatever used to be used in libraries)...

[Aslan]

Whats weird is the most common leaves don't include 5-pins. It includes the usual bugaboos of mine like the 10-pin and 6-10. But no single 5-pins or 3/4 buckets. I leave a fair amount of 5-pins and 2-4-5 3/4 buckets…apparently the pros not so much.

[bowl1820]

5 pin and the Bucket.

As they say "No drive, No five" Your ball is deflecting too much.

Going by past information it's most likely the ball isn't getting into a good roll before going into the pins.. Too much loft, too much speed, the balls not getting a chance to read the lane properly.

[vdubtx]

Whats weird is the most common leaves don't include 5-pins. It includes the usual bugaboos of mine like the 10-pin and 6-10. But no single 5-pins or 3/4 buckets. I leave a fair amount of 5-pins and 2-4-5 3/4 buckets…apparently the pros not so much.

The 5 pin, as your average improves, will be left less and less. We joke around with each other on our teams when someone leaves a 5 pin. We tell the person that leaves it to throw their purse at it next time. Needless to say, we hardly ever leave a 5 pin, I have left 3 in 123 games(I forgot my purse those days).

[vdubtx]

Too much loft, too much speed, the balls not getting a chance to read the lane properly.

Hit the nail right on the head!

[sprocket]

One time last season I was playing close to third arrow but very direct. Generally the ball would make its move right at the end and hit really hard. I got one in a little and also missed it at the bottom. I left the 5-10.:o

[Mike White]

The 5 pin, as your average improves, will be left less and less. We joke around with each other on our teams when someone leaves a 5 pin. We tell the person that leaves it to throw their purse at it next time. Needless to say, we hardly ever leave a 5 pin, I have left 3 in 123 games(I forgot my purse those days).

I tell them… we put two finger holes in the ball for a reason…