Flat 10 vs Ring 10

[MrSmoothArc]

Several years ago I reas an article (I think it was in Bowler's Journal) that talked about the difference between leaving a Flat 10 and a Ring 10 and a way to correct each. My addled brain cannot remember the tips. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

[RobLV1]

lA ringing ten is caused by the ball coming into the pocket slightly behind the head pin. The adjustment is to move a board right (for a right hander) or slightly back on the approach. A flat ten is caused by the ball losing energy before it gets to the pocket. The adjustment is usually to make a small move to the left to find a little more oil to conserve the energy in the ball until it reaches the pocket with the energy to knowck down all the pins.

[Mike White]

lA ringing ten is caused by the ball coming into the pocket slightly behind the head pin. The adjustment is to move a board right (for a right hander) or slightly back on the approach. A flat ten is caused by the ball losing energy before it gets to the pocket. The adjustment is usually to make a small move to the left to find a little more oil to conserve the energy in the ball until it reaches the pocket with the energy to knowck down all the pins.

Please, lets do away with terminology that has no basis in fact.

On the surface, a ringing 10 pin appears to be a solid pocket shot, but the 6 pin flies up an around the 10 pin, ending in the pit.

To appear to be a solid pocket shot, the ball can't come into the pocket slightly behind the head pin.

If it did, what would have hit the 2 pin?

Ok so lets assume we hit the head pin such that the head pin was driven directly towards the 7 pin.

What causes the ringing 10 pin is slightly too much deflection of the ball. Instead of the ball hitting the 3 pin at a position that drives the 3 pin directly towards the 10, the ball deflects a little bit further to the right.

This drives the 3 pin into the 6 a little bit left of directly in line with the 10 pin. The 6 pin is sent on a path just to the right of the 10 pin, off the side board, and into the pit.

If you move a board right, or back, you are likely to no longer hit the head pin in a way to drive it towards the 7 pin.

You need to adjust in a way that both decreases the deflection, and maintains the location at which the ball contacts the head pin.

The difference between a ringing 10 pin, and a flat 10 is in how much the ball deflects.

Since the ball deflects more, the 3 is driven into the 6 pin even further left of the line towards the 10. This time the path the 6 takes is just to the gutter.

With the modern core ball, the energy level of the core (rev rate) has a great deal to do with the amount the ball deflects.

One scenario is when the ball has encountered too much friction before contacting the pins, the energy has dissipated allowing for too much deflection.

However another scenario is when that ball had encounter too little friction, and the revs have not built up, and the ball has not slowed down.

This happens on a THS when someone plays a shot like straight up 13. The ball skids all the way to the end of the oil pattern, then begins to increase revs. It contacts the pins well before the revs and speed are matched.

The ball deflects in the same way as encountering too much friction, but the solution is drastically different.

[MICHAEL]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif.html)

Iceman is waiting 4 response,,,, from Rob! I need to get the ringing/flat 10 pin figured out!!

What about that 4 pin leave guys!! I know its from coming up high on the head pin! Or the 7/10 leave???

[RobLV1]

No rebuttal. I said what I have to say, and I stick by it. I'm tired of arguing. I do what I can to try and help bowlers to improve. I'm really not interested in convincing anyone that I'm right about anything. If you choose to listen to what I have to say, great. If you'd rather listen to Mike White, or anyone else for that matter, I have no problem with that. The fact that bowlers are looking to improve, and coming here and to other forums for advice is a very good thing. The only thing that's tough about it is determining whose advice to take, and whose to ignore. That, my friend, is up to you.

[MICHAEL]

appreciates your comments, and knowledge! Keep it coming!!!

[J Anderson]

Please, lets do away with terminology that has no basis in fact.


What causes the ringing 10 pin is slightly too much deflection of the ball. Instead of the ball hitting the 3 pin at a position that drives the 3 pin directly towards the 10, the ball deflects a little bit further to the right.

This drives the 3 pin into the 6 a little bit left of directly in line with the 10 pin. The 6 pin is sent on a path just to the right of the 10 pin, off the side board, and into the pit.

If you move a board right, or back, you are likely to no longer hit the head pin in a way to drive it towards the 7 pin.





This happens on a THS when someone plays a shot like straight up 13. The ball skids all the way to the end of the oil pattern, then begins to increase revs. It contacts the pins well before the revs and speed are matched.

What terminology has no basis in fact?

Up until a few years ago I would have driven either you or Rob crazy as a teammate since I did not adjust off any ten pin leave. when I was younger my reaction would have been, "good shot, I got nine out of it!" Later it would have been, "darn, I just didn't throw it good enough."

Now I do adjust most of the time. For flat tens I move 1/2 board out. Yes Rob, I know this shouldn't work but I would say that for me it does at least 70% of the time. For ringing tens I move about 6" back on the approach. I don't remember a single time that this hasn't worked, at least if I've rolled the ball over my target.

I know I'm on the slower side (14-15mph according to the scorer) but if I try sending the ball straight down 13 I'll be lucky to touch the headpin on Brooklyn side.

[Mike White]

appreciates your comments, and knowledge! Keep it coming!!!

Check out this guy.

USBC # 1560-51218

Not as bad as biilf, but the talk, is bigger than the walk.

Opinion expressed with confidence, is still opinion.

If you peel back the layers, the facts should support the opinion.

But if you're not "allowed" to peel back the layers, all you really have is opinion.

[MICHAEL]

Check out this guy.

USBC # 1560-51218

Not as bad as biilf, but the talk, is bigger than the walk.

Opinion expressed with confidence, is still opinion.

If you peel back the layers, the facts should support the opinion.

But if you're not "allowed" to peel back the layers, all you really have is opinion.

I often thought ???? had a half dozen bowling books in his computer room, and he would just paraphrase them for many of his responses..
I look back at many of his threads, and I some time wonder if 30 percent of what he said was even close to the truth! His war stories, ???? lol was he even in the military??? who knows or cares!
Once You Catch a person lying, its hard to take anything they say serious!

I knew from finding out his true average, that he was not real!

LOL,, MIKE, I realize Rob is not a God, like Bill, but Opinions are ok in my book! I enjoy reading them all!

Do me a HUGE FAVOR MIKE,,,, GET ASLAN straightened OUT!! He needs HELP!! Bless his lonely womanless heart!
Do you have a sister out there MIKE? LOL

[Mike White]

What terminology has no basis in fact?

The idea that the ball hits the "pocket" behind the head pin.

If you manage to get the ball to actually hit the head pin from "behind" you are likely to leave something like 2-4-8-10.

On those shots, it would be a massive stretch to call that hitting the pocket.


Up until a few years ago I would have driven either you or Rob crazy as a teammate since I did not adjust off any ten pin leave. when I was younger my reaction would have been, "good shot, I got nine out of it!" Later it would have been, "darn, I just didn't throw it good enough."

Depending on the consistency of your shot making at that time, not moving might have been the best choice.

This area covers the idea of random human errors in the shot making, and the distribution of those errors.

The idea is we just ain't perfect, so we just give it out best effort.


Now I do adjust most of the time. For flat tens I move 1/2 board out. Yes Rob, I know this shouldn't work but I would say that for me it does at least 70% of the time. For ringing tens I move about 6" back on the approach. I don't remember a single time that this hasn't worked, at least if I've rolled the ball over my target.

I know I'm on the slower side (14-15mph according to the scorer) but if I try sending the ball straight down 13 I'll be lucky to touch the headpin on Brooklyn side.

At the center I bowl at, the oil pattern (THS) is 10 to 10.

Given that your ball hooks too much straight down 13, would it be correct to say your ball hooks too much anywhere (from 1 to 17) you played straight down the boards?

I'm trying to gauge the difference between the oil pattern I see and the oil pattern you see.

The bowler I see this skidder happen to most often is the guy who lays the ball down at about 13, and hits 11 at the arrows, has a break point close to 7. But occasionally he will miss his mark left and throw the "frozen rope" into the pocket, leaving a flat 10.

It's not truly a straight shot, but since it only hooks about 3 boards, instead of the 11 boards he expects, it feels like it went straight.

[Mike White]

I often thought ???? had a half dozen bowling books in his computer room, and he would just paraphrase them for many of his responses..
I look back at many of his threads, and I some time wonder if 30 percent of what he said was even close to the truth! His war stories, ???? lol was he even in the military??? who knows or cares!
Once You Catch a person lying, its hard to take anything they say serious!

I knew from finding out his true average, that he was not real!

LOL,, MIKE, I realize Rob is not a God, like Bill, but Opinions are ok in my book! I enjoy reading them all!

Do me a HUGE FAVOR MIKE,,,, GET ASLAN straightened OUT!! He needs HELP!! Bless his lonely womanless heart!
Do you have a sister out there MIKE? LOL

Talk about a huge favor…

Why not ask me to fix global climate change. It would be easier.

You can't shape play-doe after it has hardened to stone.

He may go to some coaching, but I think they look at him as a revenue source rather than a project.

I would need a willing subject, and in his case, would have to break him down to zero, and build back up.

There are just so many parts of his game that are fundamentally wrong.


Aslan, take a summer, winter, and summer off bowling league, so you can concentrate on technique rather than scores.

Come here twice a week, no charge, you just pay lineage.

Be willing to accept that what you're trying to do is all wrong.

I can get your game looking human.

But you can't half *** it trying to bowl league at the same time.


Aslan isn't completely womanless…
He does have a cute looking daughter.
Must get that from her mother.
Thats an assumption, I haven't met her mother.

But that begs another question.
How did Aslan get a good looking woman to breed with him?
Must have been a lot of alcohol involved.

[Mike White]

No rebuttal. I said what I have to say, and I stick by it. I'm tired of arguing. I do what I can to try and help bowlers to improve. I'm really not interested in convincing anyone that I'm right about anything. If you choose to listen to what I have to say, great. If you'd rather listen to Mike White, or anyone else for that matter, I have no problem with that. The fact that bowlers are looking to improve, and coming here and to other forums for advice is a very good thing. The only thing that's tough about it is determining whose advice to take, and whose to ignore. That, my friend, is up to you.

Did you ever think that by having a discussion about the inner workings of where your opinions come from, that you might find that some of those opinions were not correct.. and heaven forbid, learn something?

A simple one, that you seem to have latched on to real strong (based on the number of times you repeat it on your web site) is that the ball must reach its maximum rev rate ( you mistakenly call it the moment of inertia) before it starts to hook.

It's just flat out wrong.

When it reaches its maximum rev rate it begins to roll.

It's the point where the ball to lane friction changes from kinetic (sliding) to static (rolling)

Kinetic friction (sliding) makes the ball rev up (under the assumption the surface speed of the ball is lower than the forward speed of the center of the ball).
And any friction not in line with the path of the ball, will cause it to change direction (i.e. hook)


As for ringing 10 vs flat 10.

I was watching on Youtube the 1984 Angle Open, and Marshal Holman left a ringing 10 at 1:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQG3IFZdC9M)

Later Nelson Burton Jr left a flat 10 at 3:06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAloF-4s5DQ)

Neither of these shots could possibly be considered coming in "behind the pocket"

Maybe the modern bowler has drastically increased the area which they consider to be the pocket since so many light shots carry because pins fly off the side boards.

[J Anderson]

The idea that the ball hits the "pocket" behind the head pin.

If you manage to get the ball to actually hit the head pin from "behind" you are likely to leave something like 2-4-8-10.

On those shots, it would be a massive stretch to call that hitting the pocket.


At the center I bowl at, the oil pattern (THS) is 10 to 10.

Given that your ball hooks too much straight down 13, would it be correct to say your ball hooks too much anywhere (from 1 to 17) you played straight down the boards?

I'm trying to gauge the difference between the oil pattern I see and the oil pattern you see.

The bowler I see this skidder happen to most often is the guy who lays the ball down at about 13, and hits 11 at the arrows, has a break point close to 7. But occasionally he will miss his mark left and throw the "frozen rope" into the pocket, leaving a flat 10.

It's not truly a straight shot, but since it only hooks about 3 boards, instead of the 11 boards he expects, it feels like it went straight.

Agreed on the pocket. I know at least one bowler who thinks as long as the ball so much as touches the 1 and the 3 it was "in the pocket". I'm not sure if he needs glasses or someone with a 230 average to explain to him the actual location of the pocket.

I may have to experiment next time I'm practicing. I seldom see a fresh oil house shot playing right handed. It's either second shift or a sport pattern. I know that left handed I can throw down 6 and have it hook into the pocket. Right handed I can throw a White dot down 8 and hook it to the pocket. I'll have to see where it actually goes if I throw down 13.

[tccstudent]

I may have to experiment next time I'm practicing. I seldom see a fresh oil house shot playing right handed. It's either second shift or a sport pattern. I know that left handed I can throw down 6 and have it hook into the pocket. Right handed I can throw a White dot down 8 and hook it to the pocket. I'll have to see where it actually goes if I throw down 13.
Wait a minute you are both handed

[J Anderson]

Wait a minute you are both handed

Yes I am, although you'll have to take my word for it. I don't think that the USBC is set up to keep track of separate averages. If you go to http://www.bowl.com/findamember/ and look for me member #337-3810 you'll see a big dip in my standard average in 08-09. That season and the next I bowled lefty in my regular league, and got my feet we bowling right-handed in the sport league. 11-12 I tried lefty all the time which explains the drop in sport league average. This season I'm right-handed in my regular leagues but lefty when I sub. Not to mention totally confused all the time;)

[RobLV1]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.

[MICHAEL]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.


Sorry to hear about that crappy round of golf!! LOL,,,, wish I could play around here but too much snow, and I don't like playing with orange balls in the snow!!
Many Great coaches, never even played the sport they coached! Point made, I agree! (:)

I for one know your not a phone like someone else we had on this site, that was lying about his scores!
Your scores are nothing to be upset about! You and me are about on the same page, and I for one am proud
of my accomplishments that can be verified, I post, and think everyone one should my USBC number!

Should someone post your USBC number? I wouldn't, I only did on ONE person! The Lies were JUST TO MUCH FOR me to handle!

Keep the good stuff coming, its appreciated very much! Everyone Coach has his OWN ideas, and thoughts related to the sport they teach.

I enjoy Mike's thread, and yours equally!! A Chinese Wise Man once said, "Knowledge is the Key to good bowling!"

Another great philosopher once said, " Sticks and Stones my break my bones, but bowling disagreements and commits really only cause heartburn, loss of sleep, and emotional distress!

My golf is usually around 80, to 90! I play, and bowl in sandals!

[Pauley]

Keep the good stuff coming, its appreciated very much!

X2! It is appreciated. I enjoy learning about bowling as much as I enjoy bowling and you have a great amount of knowledge and thank you for sharing it with us.

[swingset]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.

I have no dog in this pissing match except to say in this case your take on a technical matter was directly challenged (as is fair and customary on a discussion site). You refused a rebuttal. Instead you say you won't defend yourself from a self-proclaimed expert, as you then tell us why you're an expert.

That's a lot of calories burned for people you don't care about. I don't care what your average is, but if you're going to give advice then be prepared to be contradicted and be prepared to demonstrate the knowledge you profess to have.

If you're right, and want to be taken seriously, then explain why you're right or take your lumps. As a coach, you should understand that anyone reading countering opinions on a technical matter would prefer that those opinions be backed up with explanation and details, not your resume.

I've found many of the things you've written about very informative and appreciate your input, but this is turning personal and the way to defend it is to defend it with facts, not purse swinging.

Your experience might tell you you're right, but that doesn't mean someone reading your words should or can trust your words. You have to demonstrate something beyond "I'm a coach, so listen to me". This is not a visual medium, it's a contest of words and ideas.

If you refuse to hit the ball back, you lose.

[RobLV1]

Swingset: You're right, this is turning personal and that is exactly why I will not "defend" my position. When I said I don't care who people listen to I was being dead serious. I have no personal stake in being "right." I've spent countless hours researching, observing, and reflecting upon the sport of bowling. I do it because I love the game, and as a retired school teacher I love doing research and, yes, thinking. The thought that the conclusions that I have arrived upon through the research, observations, and thought that I have put into the sport, are somehow invalid because of my bowling average is absurd, to say the least. Based on your statement, if I choose not to "hit the ball back," I don't lose, you do. If one person decides not to play the game, there can be no game. I choose not to play!

[Aslan]

Wait...how did I end up in this conversation?

Oh...Iceman again.

Don't worry Iceman...unlike all the self proclaimed experts on the internet...and those with high averages and multiple 300 games that bowl on a tilted lane in St. Louis....Aslan backs up his talk with walk. The challenge had been laid down. E-tank chose not to accept it. He slithered away to the "other website" to talk trash. zDawg has chosen to accept it and will face me in person, on video, March 1st! (mark your calenders)

Mike White has also expressed some willingness to "walk the walk" and face me...once I'm through with zdawg...I'll work on setting that up. And I will be IN Vegas the weekend of the 22nd so if Rob wants to meet the great Aslan and take up the challenge to improve his game by teaching this old dog new tricks...I'd be more than happy to discard my previous presumptions and let him show me how to "really bowl".

See Iceman...I actually AGREE with you about USBC numbers and such. I've posted video after video of myself bowling. And once I get my first league completed with an established average, the USBC number will be attached. I have NOTHING to hide. I accept my position as a sub-par bowler who is new to the game and quickly getting better. Could I lie? Could I just invent my scores and accomplishments and tell stories of my time on the PBA Tour? Sure. It's the internet for crying out loud!! And who's to say on other sites I'm not somebody else? But while I may not have JaMau's 300 games, or VDub's tournament prowess, or Bowl1820's resourcefulness, or Rob's technical knowledge....I DO have truth and a lack of fear on my side. That almost got me kicked off this site...but I survived. Say what you want...but I'm REAL.

What was this thread about? Ringing and flat 10-pins? As Mudpuppy would say:
1) Aslan needs to limit his responses to a half a sentence.
2) It's bowling, not rocket science.
3) Who cares why they are left standing....just go pick up the 10-pin and shut the **** up.
4) I don't like identifying the pins with numbers or using numbers to define ball reactions....it's too technical. I just throw the heavy ball at the front of the white triangle and BOOM....I let DV8 take care of the rest!!! Booyah!!

[RobLV1]

Aslan: If you're serious about setting up a lesson when you're here, please email me at robbob5@embarqmail.com.

Rob

[MICHAEL]

Aslan: If you're serious about setting up a lesson when you're here, please email me at robbob5@embarqmail.com.

Rob

You will make believers out of all of us Rob, if you can whip Aslan into a Rock Solid champion bowling machine, not of the girley type!! Rob do you know of any chicks in Vegas that might.....na.... forget-about-it!! LOL

I hope this meeting takes place,,, Can't wait!!

[bowl1820]

Everybody this thread is getting off the O.P. topic. opinions has been expressed and It's starting to get personnel.

Let the O.P. decide who he wants to listen to and you guys quit arguing amongst yourself about who is right or wrong

You all need to drop it now.

[Aslan]

Aslan: If you're serious about setting up a lesson when you're here, please email me at robbob5@embarqmail.com.

Rob

Tempted. My only concern is "thus far" my attempts to develop a modern swing starting in the inside quadrant has failed miserably. If I keep my hand behind the ball…straight as an arrow, end over end. While I'm not giving up just yet, I'm starting to think maybe my hand just doesn't work like that. But, still, I don't make it out to Vegas very often (ever actually) so it might be interesting.

[RobLV1]

Aslan: For some reason, everyone here focuses on the modern release. Unless you have about 10 hours a week, outside of league, to practice it, I won't even show it to you. There's lots that you can do to improve your bowling without trying to reinvent your release. That's what I do; try and help people to improve their bowling, whatever their level.

[MrSmoothArc]

Thank you Bowl 1820. I hate "B***h Sessions". I thought this was a place to get some advice on bowling technique. I hope all discussions don't devolve into drama.

[tccstudent]

So last night I had 5 in a row the in frames 6 and 7 i went flat 10. Moved one board left strike, fast 8, and pocket 7-10. With those results should I have made that adjustment?

[RobLV1]

Yes, when you start leaving flat tens, it definitely time to adjust. You say you moved one board left to leave the fast eight and pocket seven ten. Did you move just your feet, your feet and your eyes, or your feet and your eyes, and your breakpoint. Judging by the results of your move, my guess would be that your adjusted your feet, probably your eyes, but probably didn't consider the breakpoint (angle). Close?

[tccstudent]

Yes, when you start leaving flat tens, it definitely time to adjust. You say you moved one board left to leave the fast eight and pocket seven ten. Did you move just your feet, your feet and your eyes, or your feet and your eyes, and your breakpoint. Judging by the results of your move, my guess would be that your adjusted your feet, probably your eyes, but probably didn't consider the breakpoint (angle). Close?

Feet and eyes only

[Mike White]

So last night I had 5 in a row the in frames 6 and 7 i went flat 10. Moved one board left strike, fast 8, and pocket 7-10. With those results should I have made that adjustment?

If can honestly say you felt like you had a quality release, and you left a flat 10, then you need to move.

By quality, I mean a release that is near the best you can repeat.

If however the release felt like crap, or at least significantly less than quality, then it's best not to adjust, just throw the ball better next time.

Unless you plan on throwing crap releases the rest of the night.

I just notice you said you moved left to "solve" the problem

It's also possible, even with a quality release, that you had the ball left of the oil line.

That would reduce the energy transferred from forward speed into revs (ball doesn't rev up much and doesn't slow down much). A lack of rotational momentum allows for extra deflection.

I think the best way to word the situation is hitting the pins with an unstable core. That covers both "hasn't revved up", and "rolled out"

[tccstudent]

Those two flat 10's were good balls with good releases and I thought both were strikes out of my hand

[bowl1820]

Here's a post by motivgirl from awhile back that seems on point.


First,how is the ball supposed to hit the pins?The ball should enter the pocket
so that it strikes the 3 on its left-hand third(for right-handers).This forces
the 3 into the 6 at an angle so the 6 comes off the side-board into the 10.
If you are hitting too much of the 3(closer to the center of the pin),the 3 sends
the 6 into the side-board at an angle that sends it around the 10.This is a
"half-pocket 10 pin." The half-pocket 10 is when the ball looks like makes
contact with the headpin and 3 at the same time.It doesn't,but it will look that
way because of the angle at which it enters the pocket.You are getting to much
of the 3 with the ball,so you will need to make a slight adjustment to carry it out.
You can tighten your line,adjust everything about a board-either right with
your feet or left with your target,increase your hook slightly.The correct move
will be the one to get the ball to strike the 3 on the left third of the pin.

The ringing tens.
First there is one where the 6 shoots up and wraps around the neck of the 10.
This usually says,that there is an entry angle problem.The ball is entering the
pocket at an angle that causes the 6 to fly out and up toward the neck of the 10.This happens because the ball is pushing the 3 too far back so the chain
reaction causes this result.
The fixes are easy.Either soften up the entry angle with your hand or by
tightening your line and firming up your speed,moving left and softening up
your speed,or change to a ball that has a similar front end movement but
less aggressive on the backend.

Second ringing 10.When the 6 shoots around the middle of the 10,it is still
called a ringing 10,but the cause and solution are different.The cause is
similar and the solutions are also,but in this case,the preferable option
is to slow the ball down.You just need give it a split second more reaction
time and a softer hit.

Third ringing 10.There is an occasional 10 leave where the 6 shoots around
the base of the 10.There is nothing you can do about it.Normally,this is telling
you the 3 may be of spot,so check the pin placements.

The soft 10. The ball enters the pocket either fairly flush or half-pocket and the 6 just falls falls in the gutter next to the 10.Generally,this tells you that you
have hold in the middle part of the lane and you are either too fast or too deep
with the ball you have to use it.Since this hold always creates high scores
you want to be able to take advantage of it.
There are at least three adjustments you can make.If you are a hard thrower,
slow the ball down and send it a little right to open up the lane.You want
your feet to be far enough outside so you have "tug" area inside.Second:make
sure that the ball doesn't start on the oil and stay on the oil.Hold only helps
if you are in a position to use it to set up your shot when needed.
Third:Check the equipment you are using.This is the time to use larger flaring balls.The swing area outside and hold area inside means the lanes are wide
open so you will want the ball that can produce the most strikes.Always make
physical adjustments first.Changing balls should always be last.

The first rule of good scoring is "Keep the pins low on the deck"When pins fly,
you want them flying around at the height that is equal to the fattest part of
the pins when they are standing.
When a pin flies around mid-pin high,you have a better chance of that pin hitting something else.If the pins you have knocked down are rolling around on the pindeck,they have a better chance to hit something.
When all of the pin action is up toward the neck of pins or higher your chances
of carrying are less.

One last word.The "messenger strike".This may look cool,and you may carry
one of these hits,we don't play for these.It is the sign of a mistake that went right.In order to get a messenger(the head pin)to go back across the lane to the 10,you have the ball coming in late (light).
Unless you are a cranker who plays for light pocket hits"and is going to pay
the price in a split combo".You need to slow your ball speed down a little to
get the shot into the strike area.

This was posted by Coolerman on BBE.He is my coach and mentor.

[Mike White]

Those two flat 10's were good balls with good releases and I thought both were strikes out of my hand

At no time until you saw the results, did you think anything might be wrong with the shot?

Like the location the ball hitting the head pin being light?

The path the ball took to the head pin being a little straighter than the others?

It's just my experience that having everything look proper, then leave a flat 10 is a rare occurrence.

Thats both in my game, and watching many others.

Now when I say look proper..
I mean what the shot looked like to me.

The bowler's opinion tends to be… um.. biased.

[Aslan]

Thank you Bowl 1820. I hate "B***h Sessions". I thought this was a place to get some advice on bowling technique. I hope all discussions don't devolve into drama.

Only discussions about 10-pins. All other threads are complete love-fests.

As Motiv girl said about messenger strikes...I have a similar dilemma with Brooklyn strikes. There are times when I swear every 2 out of 3 strikes is Brooklyn. It happens so often that I start to think..."maybe I should just throw for Brooklyn strikes...I mean, it's the same score on the scoresheet!" I know thats NOT the attitude to take...but man...I get a LOT of Brooklyn strikes!!

[Mike White]

I often thought ???? had a half dozen bowling books in his computer room, and he would just paraphrase them for many of his responses..
I look back at many of his threads, and I some time wonder if 30 percent of what he said was even close to the truth! His war stories, ???? lol was he even in the military??? who knows or cares!
Once You Catch a person lying, its hard to take anything they say serious!

I knew from finding out his true average, that he was not real!

LOL,, MIKE, I realize Rob is not a God, like Bill, but Opinions are ok in my book! I enjoy reading them all!

Do me a HUGE FAVOR MIKE,,,, GET ASLAN straightened OUT!! He needs HELP!! Bless his lonely womanless heart!
Do you have a sister out there MIKE? LOL

My comment about Rob comparing to ???? is just what you describe about having books.

A lot of what Rob types can be sourced to knowledgeable people, but other parts of what he types can be sourced to pure idiots.

I think he doesn't want to "debate" his opinions because they are just things he's read about.

As for Rob being a USBC Silver level coach, it's less impressive when you consider USBC does list ???? as a Bronze level coach.

Much like any schooling, you get what you put into it, so if you pay the fees, attend the seminars, and pass some form of test, you get the title.

In my opinion, it's not worth the time and $ in my area. Around here, we don't have bowling in high schools or the local colleges.

My coaching is more of a "loss leader".

I get them walking better, and releasing the ball better.

Then when they have a stable physical game, we talk about what kind of bowling ball would best suit them.

As for a Sister, yes I do, but no way in hell would she be interested in the likes of Aslan.

Some of her info on IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0925042/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1)

The site however is very incomplete.

http://www.linkedin.com (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/karen-white/34/687/a67)

I'm not a member of linkedin.com so I don't know what all she has listed there.

She works for Disney now as an editor, but had spent most of her time in the industry as a "free agent"

Some recent movies she has worked on are Frozen, Wreck-It-Ralph, Enchanted, Bed Time Stories.

[RobLV1]

Wow, when I respond I get bashed and when I don't respond I get bashed. That, sir, is why I don't respond. As I said before, you obviously need to attack me to feel better about yourself. After watching some of the "tournament" video, you seemed like a nice enough guy, then you start spewing hate once again. Now you are not only going after me, but the entire USBC Coaching program. Say what you like about me, but please tell everyone why, if the Certification Program is just paying some money and passing some tests, why is it that the likes of Walter Ray Williams Jr. bothered to become Silver Certified? Why is it that both Rino Page and Tony Reyes sat in the same room and took the same Silver Certification tests that I did? Why is it that part of my Level I class was to teach one of the other participants to bowl with their wrong hand as an exercise in teaching beginning bowling basics, and the other "student" who I taught was Mark Baker?

Your statement of using coaching as a "loss leader" for selling bowling balls is very true. Unfortunately, with that attitude, along with your lack of professional training in coaching, the people who lose are the ones who come to you for help.

[MICHAEL]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk_zps97be1d94.gif.html)

WHY THE BLOOD LETTING!!!! Mike give your opinions, and Rob give yours! Neither of you need to correct the other??? I DON't GET IT! PEACE!! NO one that I can tell is lying, like the Bowling God, Bilf!!

Their is room enough for a host of opinions, so why the attack MIKE?

Hey you sister sounds like a very talented lady! I bet your REAL proud of her, like I am of my sister, who has her doctorates degree in pharmacy! Not only that, she is ONE HOT LOOKING WOMAN!! LOL

NO ASLAN,,, she is married!!!