Is it okay to put the fingers into the shot with current bowling balls?

[Hammer]

Before the modern balls with their big weighted cores and reactive resin surfaces that make them grip like snow tires it use to be necessary to hit the ball at release with lift using the fingertips. This was because the balls were made of rubber and needed help to put rotation on them to get to the pocket. Things got a little easier when the urethane ball came out. The rubber balls did not have the cores like the modern balls.

From what I read in certain magazines and stuff on the website most pros are not hitting up on the shot with the fingers because the modern balls don't need the help. Actually when they get into the release area if their wrist is cupped they uncup and just let the ball pull off of their fingers without hitting up on the ball with them. They get enough revs because of their type of release.

So as it turns out the only ball that you can still hit up on with the fingers are the urethane or plastic balls. Norm Duke says what he does to his bowling balls is to not bevel the edges of his finger holes. He does this because if he accidently hits up on the ball with his fingers the sharp edges will let him know that. He just wants the ball to come off his fingers. In one of his YOUTUBE bowling instructional videos he talks about going from a straight wrist in his swing to a broken wrist after his thumb comes out of the ball.

In the YOUTUBE video Analysis of Modern 10-pin Bowling Swing and Release they talk about this. They show pros that are cupped, cocked or straight wristed uncupping, uncocking and going into a broken wrist after the thumb comes out of the ball. If done right it adds revs to the ball. It is similar to the drill with the small football where when you let it go you break your wrist to put a spin on the ball.

[sprocket]

Yes, this is all very true. Many of the pros said their bowling hands took a royal beating in the PBA plastic ball tournament they used to have. No wonder so many of the pros of the past had fingers and thumbs that looked like hamburger after 40 games a week.

[RobLV1]

The faster you learn to get your fingers out of the equation, the better off you'll be. For some reason, modern bowling balls hook much better on their own than they do with any help from us.

[larry mc]

i put alot of finger into it , and outhook most people in my local house , we have oily conditions so maybe thats why

[Hammer]

The faster you learn to get your fingers out of the equation, the better off you'll be. For some reason, modern bowling balls hook much better on their own than they do with any help from us.

I found this out last Saturday on league night. I started out using my Blue Hammer urethane ball. I was standing on board 22 with my slide foot and throwing over the second arrow out to an area between board one and five. I was putting some fingers into the shots with the Blue.

Somewhere in the second game I decided to try my Raw Hammer Anger ball. I was using an area from board 30 to 35 with my slide foot and throwing between the third and fourth arrow. The Anger ball acted like I was throwing a boomerang. It kept wanting to dive to the brooklyn side of the head pin. I got two strikes in a row with it but I decided it was too uncontrollable and went back to the Blue. The Blue was more in tune with that nights alley conditions.

The alleys are oiled right before we start our league night. I guess on some league nights I don't have enough speed for the Anger ball. My speed is only 13.5 to 14.8mph at the pins. After that night I had the surface of the Anger ball changed from 2000 Abralon matte finish to 4000 Abralon with the slick type polish to see if that will make the Anger more manageable with the speed that I have.

I am finding out that I don't need a cranker release to make these modern balls hook playing deep. You just need the right ball to do it. If I can do it anyone should be able to.

[MICHAEL]

The faster you learn to get your fingers out of the equation, the better off you'll be. For some reason, modern bowling balls hook much better on their own than they do with any help from us.

the hand and fingers work together, and the more hand and fingers I get into the ball, with lift, the more hook I get.
I am not sure what your talking about Rob?
Tonight after league, I did some experiments on ball releases

Because my ball with hooking to much using my fingers, and lifting through and up the side of the ball, I tried throwing it with a plain out the side of my hand, and no lift.

It didn't hook NEARLY as much as when I put my Hand and fingers into the equations with big lift.

What do you mean get it out FASTER? Would you elaborate a little on what that means? thanks...

How do you get your fingers out faster, too fast and how do you get lift?? My balls need lift form what I can see when I FORGET TO DO IT, it looks flat going to the pocket.

[RobLV1]

The best way that I can describe it is to tell you to watch Pete Weber. He is a traditional bowler, yet the ball sits on the palm of his hand which rotates around, and through the ball. Norm Duke described it to me as "feeling" the ball at the base of the "V" formed by the index finger and the middle finger. When we talk about taking the fingers out of the ball, we are referring to hitting up on the ball.

[bowl1820]

What do you mean get it out FASTER? Would you elaborate a little on what that means? thanks....

He didn't mean get your fingers out of the ball faster.

He's saying the faster you learn not to lift (aka: putting fingers into, hitting up) on the ball, the better off you'll be.

[Pauley]

My balls need lift form what I can see when I FORGET TO DO IT, it looks flat going to the pocket.

My understanding is that with a "traditional" release that works mostly the outside of the ball, you will need some lift for added hook. With a more "modern" or "transitional" release working the inside of the ball, all that is needed is a cocked to uncocked, or cupped to uncupped release with a focus on rolling the ball off the hand and you will get all the revs you need.

[sprocket]

I bowl thumbless and my hand goes flat when I let go of it. Actually my wrist uncups, but what I mean by flat is that my hand is open after I let go of the ball. I believe this not only helps project the ball but also gives me a more conventional high track, rather than one that is highly inverted with the track hitting the fingers and being way away from the thumb. That is the track that many thumbless guys have and I think a lot of that is because they grab with the fingers. I don't want any grab at all and my future balls will be drilled with negative pitch in the fingers to give me an even softer release.

[Hammer]

What Rob is talking about is getting use to not hitting up on the ball at the release. From what I understand is that at release you still keep your fingertips bent like when you put them into the ball. The uncupping of the wrist and leaving your fingers bent will put revs on the ball with the ball pulling off of your fingers. What you don't do mistakenly is straighten out your fingertips to let the ball go.

[sprocket]

Nope. My whole hand straightens out at the same time including the finger tips. If they stay bent they will drag in the holes causing early roll and early turn. At least that's how it feels to me. I haven't seen a close up video of my release to know for sure.

[Hammer]

Nope. My whole hand straightens out at the same time including the finger tips. If they stay bent they will drag in the holes causing early roll and early turn. At least that's how it feels to me. I haven't seen a close up video of my release to know for sure.

In the YOUTUBE video Analysis of Modern 10-pin Bowling Swing and Release they show in slow motion a part of the video
called fingers last. If you look closely at that part of the video you will see that as the fingers come out they are still bent.
This is what puts rotation on the ball as you uncup and the ball pulls off of you fingertips without having to hit up on the ball.

[Mike White]

The faster you learn to get your fingers out of the equation, the better off you'll be. For some reason, modern bowling balls hook much better on their own than they do with any help from us.

If getting the fingers out of the ball is a good thing, I've got this game mastered.

After doing a damage to my bicep muscle, I'm back to throwing the ball fairly straight with absolutely no muscle involved, and very little if any fingers hitting the ball.

Evidence to the "no fingers" part is my numerous 5-7, 5-10, and 8-10 splits.

Oh and if I miss my mark a board right, 1-2-4-5-10.

I just got out of this hell, and I'm right back in it.

[Hammer]

If getting the fingers out of the ball is a good thing, I've got this game mastered.

After doing a damage to my bicep muscle, I'm back to throwing the ball fairly straight with absolutely no muscle involved, and very little if any fingers hitting the ball.

Evidence to the "no fingers" part is my numerous 5-7, 5-10, and 8-10 splits.

Oh and if I miss my mark a board right, 1-2-4-5-10.

I just got out of this hell, and I'm right back in it.

What kind of ball are you using? Maybe you need a ball with a lower RG like 2.50 and 2000 Abralon surface. Are you bowling on a THS pattern? Depending on what core is in the ball you can get a good hook without helping the ball with the finger lift.

[Mike White]

What kind of ball are you using? Maybe you need a ball with a lower RG like 2.50 and 2000 Abralon surface. Are you bowling on a THS pattern? Depending on what core is in the ball you can get a good hook without helping the ball with the finger lift.

I've tried very low RG balls such as Brunswick Mastermind.

The issue is while in pain avoidance mode, my approach is very similar to throwing at a 10 pin.

Video of my "flat" release using a Hell Raiser Revenge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcwa4n6pUv8)

Over the years, I developed a 10 pin shot that was very energy efficient, allowing me to bounce pins out of the pit frequently.

Now using that style (because it's the only thing my body knows how to repeat that doesn't hurt the arm) my main focus is releasing the ball slower.

The whole hand motion is designed to be ineffective, since you don't need hook to knock down single pins.

Ineffective release at any speed = 5-7, 5-10, 8-10.


To make a modern ball work like it does for others, I'd have to wait until I'm healthy, then completely break down the release, and rebuild it.

The problem there is, if I'm healthy, I can take a non-modern ball, and get even better reaction from it.

White Dot with a healthy arm, but a rusty body. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Mc4QRZW3M)

So my options are, improve my body condition to withstand my pre-modern release, or completely destroy the game I know, and learn a new one.

[sprocket]

You're entire approach is better in the first video, lack of hook or not. I would stick with it and just work on your release motion. It will come. You are muscling the hell out of the ball in the second video.

[Mike White]

You're entire approach is better in the first video, lack of hook or not. I would stick with it and just work on your release motion. It will come. You are muscling the hell out of the ball in the second video.

I find it interesting that the problem you see in the 2nd video is the muscling.

I'm curious as a no thumb bowler, how do you achieve 17.5 - 19 mph without a long pendulum backswing?

[MICHAEL]

I find it interesting that the problem you see in the 2nd video is the muscling.

I'm curious as a no thumb bowler, how do you achieve 17.5 - 19 mph without a long pendulum backswing?

MIke,,, a little love here!! Don't be so defensive. If you don't agree with a commit, and that commit is someone giving an opinion about you, or something you have said , YOU ATTACK!!

Mike,, this is a form. You are not o trial, nor is your life depending on you being absolutely correct in your thoughts, or ideas about BOWLING!

YES is JUST BOWLING,,, nothing personal! I want a little more LOVE, and less defensive posturing.

I like you mike, lighten up.

Or not, its up to you,,, God Bless America!!! Home of the best bowlers in the World!!

p.s. For what its worth bud, I thought you had a great delivery! I should be so smooth!! Take care of that ARM!
Have you ever read about DMSO! GREAT stuff, I have used for over 7 years! Actually have a couple books on
the subject. NOTHING LIKE IT for pain and inflammation!

[MICHAEL]

He didn't mean get your fingers out of the ball faster.

He's saying the faster you learn not to lift (aka: putting fingers into, hitting up) on the ball, the better off you'll be.


Wow! Iceman has been told by MANY good bowlers around town, "Put some Finger, LIFT, into that ball."

Now your saying don't lift? bowl820, your saying don't lift?

On a side note that British guy that I have seen on TV here lately, ( can't think of his name right off hand), looks like he has NO LIFT at all? Very strange, non follow through compared to all American bowlers.

How does he get the great revs, and bowl so well using a straight out arm release.

I must admit, I would like to give this idea a go!! It hasn't registered, exactly as to how to do this release.

NOT TO LIFT, NOT to put your fingers into hitting up? Maybe to truly learn this, I need to have a lesion with an expert!

[J Anderson]

On a side note that British guy that I have seen on TV here lately, ( can't think of his name right off hand), looks like he has NO LIFT at all? Very strange, non follow through compared to all American bowlers.

How does he get the great revs, and bowl so well using a straight out arm release.



Sounds like Stu Williams.

[Mike White]

MIke,,, a little love here!! Don't be so defensive. If you don't agree with a commit, and that commit is someone giving an opinion about you, or something you have said , YOU ATTACK!!

Mike,, this is a form. You are not o trial, nor is your life depending on you being absolutely correct in your thoughts, or ideas about BOWLING!

YES is JUST BOWLING,,, nothing personal! I want a little more LOVE, and less defensive posturing.

I like you mike, lighten up.

Or not, its up to you,,, God Bless America!!! Home of the best bowlers in the World!!

p.s. For what its worth bud, I thought you had a great delivery! I should be so smooth!! Take care of that ARM!
Have you ever read about DMSO! GREAT stuff, I have used for over 7 years! Actually have a couple books on
the subject. NOTHING LIKE IT for pain and inflammation!

Wow, that came across as an attack?

In my 2nd video, I see plenty wrong with it, and the muscling is a minor one.

A major one is that it all happens way too early.

Back when I had things under control, the muscling / release happened much later so muscling didn't try to increase speed, but just increase revolutions.

That 2nd video has the ball going thud problem as well as very high axis tilt.

I asked the question about a no thumb release because one must use muscle to generate forward speed if there isn't a long arm swing, or use the leg muscles to "run" to the line.

Muscling when used correctly, isn't as bad of a thing as some people seem to think.

[zdawg]

Wow, that came across as an attack?

In my 2nd video, I see plenty wrong with it, and the muscling is a minor one.

A major one is that it all happens way too early.

Back when I had things under control, the muscling / release happened much later so muscling didn't try to increase speed, but just increase revolutions.

That 2nd video has the ball going thud problem as well as very high axis tilt.

I asked the question about a no thumb release because one must use muscle to generate forward speed if there isn't a long arm swing, or use the leg muscles to "run" to the line.

Muscling when used correctly, isn't as bad of a thing as some people seem to think.

I've been told the same thing, basically I was told if its done at the end aka during or just before the release it can actually be very beneficial. I haven't tried incorporating any of this yet, its taken me 5 months to get a good release, relaxed armswing, etc. but at some point I will revisit this probably after my league has concluded.

[Pauley]

From the articles I have read and slow motion video I have watched, the "modern" release is more of a horizontal motion through the middle of the ball instead of a more vertical lift up the side of the ball.

If you watch Mike Fagan's release from the side in slow motion, you will see what I am talking about. He "pushes/rolls" the ball onto the lane in a horizontal motion, there is no lift involved at all.

I watched some videos of Stu Williams after I saw him bowl on one of the WSOB TV finals and his release is not very different from others he just chooses to "saw off" his follow through and keeps his arm and hand below his shoulders giving the illusion he has no lift. Just because the arm and hand come up above the head because of momentum does not mean they are "lifting" at the release point.

[MICHAEL]

From the articles I have read and slow motion video I have watched, the "modern" release is more of a horizontal motion through the middle of the ball instead of a more vertical lift up the side of the ball.

If you watch Mike Fagan's release from the side in slow motion, you will see what I am talking about. He "pushes/rolls" the ball onto the lane in a horizontal motion, there is no lift involved at all.

I watched some videos of Stu Williams after I saw him bowl on one of the WSOB TV finals and his release is not very different from others he just chooses to "saw off" his follow through and keeps his arm and hand below his shoulders giving the illusion he has no lift. Just because the arm and hand come up above the head because of momentum does not mean they are "lifting" at the release point.

I am having a real hard time understanding this Push, roll the ball in an horizontal motion! Up to this point, I foucs on coming up the side of the ball and with LIFT!

Horizontal movement through the middle of the ball,,, NOT Registering,,, I need to explore this movement more!

[Hammer]

With all of this lift or not to lift you just have to try both and see what works for you. The only time you really need to lift with the fingers is if you are using a urethane or old rubber ball because they do need a little help to get to the pocket. With the reactive resin balls with their special cores and surfaces that act like snow tires they don't need and help with finger lift.

I have a Raw Hammer Anger ball that I use on a THS pattern on league nights that is oiled right before we bowl and I put no lift on it and it hooks like a boomerang. By the way, this is when I am playing deep with my slide foot on board 30 to 35 and throwing between arrow three and four out to breakpoint board four to ten. My speed is 13.5 to 14.8mph. Ball surface is 2000 Abralon matte surface. I do not have a pro release but a pretty good one.

I recently changed the surface to 4000 Abralon and put slick polish on it to tame the hook as an experiment. The only thing that I do at release is to try and stay on the inside of the ball as long as possible and when my thumb comes out I uncup and turn the ball only an inch or two and keep my fingertips bent like they were when I put them in the ball. The reason for that is when I uncup the weight of the ball pulls off of the bent fingertips which causes the ball to get the revs I need without fingertip lift.

All I can say is try making your shot with lift or just uncup and leave your fingertips bent and see what works best for you and the lane condition you bowl on. It doesn't have to become an argument with somebody here that becomes a war of those that lift and those that don't. JUST DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU. THE END.

[Aslan]

A) Lets play a drinking game where you have to do a shot everytime Hammer:

1. Mentions a Hammer Raw Anger ball.
2. References the Youtube Moder 10-pin bowling video.
3. References an article by Rob Mautner.

Rob = Hammer??? Well played...using a pseudo-Rob to advertise!! I like it!!

Kidding aside....I don't get it. I've watched that dumb video about 25 times and have spent nearly an hour trying to figure out how leaving your hand behind the ball makes it rotate sideways....it doesn't work. Maybe at like ultra low speeds...but most pin carry is in the 19-21mph range...so good luck throwing 11mph. And how do you keep you hand going straight to the target if you shoot it out laterally?? Pete Weber IS a good example...when he releases...his release goes out to the SIDE instead of towards the target and up (like old footage).

The problem I see with the modern approach is it relies on 2 things:
1) An assymetric ball (and not just assymetric because it's drilled)
2) An arsenal.

Try making a low-mid performance ball with a symmetric core hook at 19mph without bringing your fingers up the side...I know I can't. And I've tried like hell(0kitty).

Remember how they used to make balls go straight before the plastic revolution?? Remember keeping your palm behind the ball?? Thats what my ball does...straight as an arrow. And I'm only throwing 14.7-16.9mph...still goes straight.

I've got a lesson with Rob scheduled for late March. Thats right...the Evil Aslan meets the King of Arsenals/Plastic Balls/Modern Releases and all things Holy!! So maybe he can teach this old dog a new trick or two. Gotta do SOMETHING to get to that next level. Trouncing zDawg then M. White should be no problem. But how long before Iceman shows up on his gOld Wing and challenges me for dominance!!? Thats like Godzilla challenging the Stay Puff Marshmellow man!! I need to at least be as powerful as Mothra!!

[josheaton16]

It doesn't go straight because there hand isn't behind the ball the whole time it just ends there. It starts on the inside so they are still getting rotation that way.

[Hammer]

On that you know what video I always say to look at to see the pro release they do not stay behind the ball the whole time. If you watch closely when they are reaching the release area their hand goes from the inside quadrant of the ball then when their thumb comes out their hand is behind the ball and then quickly rotates to the right about an inch or two and then the ball pulls off of their fingertips which causes the revs they get. They don't have to lift up the side of the ball to get revs.

Depending on what target they are shooting at or what lane condition they are bowling on they can come up from straight behind the ball
to going as far as having their hand come up the side of the ball which would be 90 degrees. Anything more then 90 degrees would give you a spinner.

You are right about me talking too much about my Hammer Anger ball. I am wearing it out just by talking about it sooo much. The reason is that I only have a two ball arsenal my Hammer Blue and the Anger. OOPS! Sorry about that. Just for laughs I think I will go out and add a third ball to my arsenal that way I will have a new ball to talk about all of the time instead of my Anger. OOPS! LOL.

[Pauley]

When you see a modern release from behind in slow motion the hand comes from the inside of the ball, then uncups or uncocks slightly to the outside of the ball. When I said middle of the ball I meant it is not all the way on the outside, it is slightly outside but not much at all.

This puts plenty of revs on the ball because once the thumb clears the ball is being projected to the right of the head pin while the hand and fingers thenmove to the left of that, more towards the headpin or even the 7 pin.

This is evident in one of Joe Slowinski's articles about using the backup ball drill. There is a frame by frame view from the front of Sean Rash's normal release and you would think he was throwing a backup ball, yet he is a true power player.

***Disclaimer- I am far from an expert and very new to bowling. This is just what I have learned from reading and watching video.

[bowl1820]

Wow! Iceman has been told by MANY good bowlers around town, "Put some Finger, LIFT, into that ball."

Now your saying don't lift? bowl1820, your saying don't lift?


No, I said Rob said the faster you learn not to lift (aka: putting fingers into, hitting up) on the ball, the better off you'll be.

Here's one to read from Susie Minshew about lift:
http://www.strikeability.com/secret2.php

Excerpt:
Lift is what you do to the ball to get it off the ball return. When people talk about lift in bowling, they are usually referring to what they had to do 'in the old days' to get the ball to finish. With rubber and plastic and even some urethane, the exit of the fingers was usually a pulling upward toward the palm (referred to as 'putting some fingers in the shot'). If you do that in today's game, the powerful balls you are throwing behave very erratically and you hit the ball on the upswing, a very bad thing in the modern game. Today that behavior is kind of built in to the balls.

What folks are really describing when they mention lift is leverage. Leverage is having your body in the correct position to deliver the most powerful shot possible with the least amount of effort.

[sprocket]

I find it interesting that the problem you see in the 2nd video is the muscling.

I'm curious as a no thumb bowler, how do you achieve 17.5 - 19 mph without a long pendulum backswing?

With a combination of muscle and leg drive. I believe I have mentioned several times on these forums that I would not teach or want anyone copying my game. I'm pretty sure I even mentioned that I would like to coach but find my own game to be a contradiction to what I would be teaching and that holds me back.

I admire the first video because it is CLOSE to being a great non-muscled delivery. In the second video, from the top down things look much more forced. That's my opinion.

And this confirms how I feel about giving any opinions or advice when my own game is what it is.

[RobLV1]

The technological changes that have affected the modern game of bowling (reactive resin balls with dynamic cores, synthetic lanes, synthetic lane conditioners, etc.) have resulted in many misconceptions resulting from things that used to be true before all the changes. This thread is actually dealing with many of them. First and formost, I don't think that you will find a qualified bowling coach anywhere that would advocate muscling the ball. A higher ball speed which has really become mandatory in the modern game comes from a muscle-free armswing that lets gravity, in combination with footwork, create it. The players who hinge the ball rather than pushing it away do away with the idea that a big push away is required for speed, yet in the case of players who are shorter (Norm Duke and Rhino Page come to mind), it can help to add to the speed that is generated. The thing that creates the ball speed is timing that gets the ball to the line at the same time as the sliding foot. This is really hard for traditional bowlers to understand as it is contradictory to the old school thought that you need late timing to create revs. Remember that before the introduction of modern equipment, bowlers had to try to hook the ball. They used late timing to pull the ball through, ripping their thumbs out of the ball and turning it to get it to hook. The fact that late timing back then also resulted in slower ball speed was no big deal since the slower ball speed also gave the ball more time to hook.

Enter modern equipment that is more reactive, so it requires more speed, and has dynamic cores that has done away with the need to do anything to make the ball hook, and what you have is a situation where all of the things that bowlers used to do to improve their games, have now begun to work against them. So what are the keys to an effective game today? 1. Neutral Timing (the ball and the slide foot arrive at the foul line at the same time). 2. A muscle-free armswing. 3. A release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. 4. The ability to project the ball out, away from the pins, rather than pointing it at the pins.

If you can develop these four traits, your bowling will do nothing but improve. Please note that I talked about a release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. I purposely did not refer to a modern release that works the inside of the ball. That concept has stuck in the minds of league bowlers, who think that it is something that they'll try in league or in practice. Developing a modern release is not something that you just decide to do. It takes hundreds of hours of dedicated practice, much of it practicing boring one-step drills that are about as exciting as watching your hair grow. Most bowlers do not have the time, the patience, nor the motivation the develop a modern release. That's O.K.. Unless your ultimate goal is to make a living bowling the PBA Tour (what's left of it), you really do not need a modern release. You do, however, need to develop the four traits outlined above to become the best league bowler you can be. The easiest and most effective way to develop these traits is to find a qualified coach to help you.

Questions?

[MICHAEL]

The technological changes that have affected the modern game of bowling (reactive resin balls with dynamic cores, synthetic lanes, synthetic lane conditioners, etc.) have resulted in many misconceptions resulting from things that used to be true before all the changes. This thread is actually dealing with many of them. First and formost, I don't think that you will find a qualified bowling coach anywhere that would advocate muscling the ball. A higher ball speed which has really become mandatory in the modern game comes from a muscle-free armswing that lets gravity, in combination with footwork, create it. The players who hinge the ball rather than pushing it away do away with the idea that a big push away is required for speed, yet in the case of players who are shorter (Norm Duke and Rhino Page come to mind), it can help to add to the speed that is generated. The thing that creates the ball speed is timing that gets the ball to the line at the same time as the sliding foot. This is really hard for traditional bowlers to understand as it is contradictory to the old school thought that you need late timing to create revs. Remember that before the introduction of modern equipment, bowlers had to try to hook the ball. They used late timing to pull the ball through, ripping their thumbs out of the ball and turning it to get it to hook. The fact that late timing back then also resulted in slower ball speed was no big deal since the slower ball speed also gave the ball more time to hook.

Enter modern equipment that is more reactive, so it requires more speed, and has dynamic cores that has done away with the need to do anything to make the ball hook, and what you have is a situation where all of the things that bowlers used to do to improve their games, have now begun to work against them. So what are the keys to an effective game today? 1. Neutral Timing (the ball and the slide foot arrive at the foul line at the same time). 2. A muscle-free armswing. 3. A release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. 4. The ability to project the ball out, away from the pins, rather than pointing it at the pins.

If you can develop these four traits, your bowling will do nothing but improve. Please note that I talked about a release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. I purposely did not refer to a modern release that works the inside of the ball. That concept has stuck in the minds of league bowlers, who think that it is something that they'll try in league or in practice. Developing a modern release is not something that you just decide to do. It takes hundreds of hours of dedicated practice, much of it practicing boring one-step drills that are about as exciting as watching your hair grow. Most bowlers do not have the time, the patience, nor the motivation the develop a modern release. That's O.K.. Unless your ultimate goal is to make a living bowling the PBA Tour (what's left of it), you really do not need a modern release. You do, however, need to develop the four traits outlined above to become the best league bowler you can be. The easiest and most effective way to develop these traits is to find a qualified coach to help you.

Questions?


Aslsan does need something,,, modern or not!! hopefully you can help him Rob!! God knows everyone else has, including Mike White! If not you Rob,,, I fear the worst!!

[Aslan]

One thing I'm starting to see on various bowling forums, is these type of discussions can sometimes become "contentious" because we are lacking a very basic premise to the discussion. What are your goals?

For example; if PDW or Norm Duke are participating...then the topic becomes the modern release and how they can "tweak" it to give them that narrow edge over the competion. But if we're talking to a bowler that wants to elevate their average from 158 to 191...it's a COMPLETELY different topic.

I admit, that was hard to learn early on. I think all of us think that if we emulate a pro or learn pro techniques and throw "pro level" bowling balls...that it'll make us better. But thats NOT necessarily the case as Rob sort of eluded to. I personally think a bowler that bowls in ONE HOUSE....a couple leagues a week....and has no inkling to ever go the tournament route or join a sport league...has absolutely no need or business carrying a 4-11 ball arsenal and learning "the modern release". In MOST cases...it'll be more detrimental to their game than helpful.

And where I deviate from the "modern bowling" theories is that NO MATTER WHAT the changes to lane conditions or bowling balls...the BOTTOM LINE is it's still a ball going 60 feet into 10 pins. The GAME hasn't changed. It's still about accuracy and consistent shots. It's STILL about picking up spares. We've unfortunately forgot that as we've gotten lost in the new era of everyone getting 2-3 "300 games" per year...and averages in the 220-250 range for most good house bowlers. I think we sometimes make this game out to be harder than it has to be. Straighter is still greater. The pocket is still in the same spot. A bowler with consistency and good lateral movement will still have an advantage over some cranker or thumbless bowler that gets above average carry but can't consistently hit their spot.

I've struggled with it as well. Probably more than most. It seems logical that if I want to be the best I can be...I NEED to learn the most advanced approaches and throw the most advanced equipment. But thats not the case. Rolling a bigger hook ball actually hurt my game. Trying to throw "correctly" actually made my average go down. Because I started worrying more about pin carry and optimal angles and I stopped concentrating on accuracy and consistency. I convinced myself that if you can't throw with the same release as Chris Barnes...you might as well just quit the sport and play Wii bowling.

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't all strive to get better and be the best we can be. And I'm NOT going to settle for just being a pathetic house bowler that rolls a 200 average and throws 3 300-games a season but never strives for anything more. I WILL eventually play in amateur tournaments and expand my game. But I doubt the PBA will even be around by the time I get good and consistent enough to move to the next level...and if they are...they only exist to showcase the same 30 bowlers we've seen for the last 7 years...it's more "entertainment" than bowling.

So...after boring Mudpuppy to death with the above...in a nutshell...the "need" for a modern release came from the "need" for modern equipment...which came from the "need" to increase scoring which came from the "need" to make bowling more popular to the masses. We're trying to tell the bowling public that they "need" to develop this release....because it's a different game....because WE MADE IT a different game. We "need" to control a hook that we PUT IN the ball. Had we not made the equipment so hook dominant in the first place...we wouldn't have the "need" to change our releases. So follow Mike White's example...throw a Storm Polar Ice or Storm Mix...standard release...= 300-game. Don't MAKE the game more complicated then complain that you need the "modern release" because now the game is more complicated.

I'm still working with DYDS...I'm still open to changing my release. But the bottom line is...taking your hand from the inside quadrant to back of the ball...rotates the ball the same as taking your hand from behind the ball and moving it a quarter up the side. Same rev direction...same rev rate...same ball...same everything. There's NOTHING wrong with the old release. If you bought a new ball and it hooks too much...thats your own damn fault. Learn to play inside. Learn to increase your speed or loft. I disagree with Rob...You CAN outbowl a bad ball reaction. It's a BALL!! It's not an alien species! YOU're in control!! The ball doesn't skid 45 feet and make a conscious decision to "not hook"....it's a BALL...it does what you make it do!

[Mudpuppy]

One thing I'm starting to see on various bowling forums, is these type of discussions can sometimes become "contentious" because we are lacking a very basic premise to the discussion. What are your goals?

For example; if PDW or Norm Duke are participating...then the topic becomes the modern release and how they can "tweak" it to give them that narrow edge over the competion. But if we're talking to a bowler that wants to elevate their average from 158 to 191...it's a COMPLETELY different topic.

I admit, that was hard to learn early on. I think all of us think that if we emulate a pro or learn pro techniques and throw "pro level" bowling balls...that it'll make us better. But thats NOT necessarily the case as Rob sort of eluded to. I personally think a bowler that bowls in ONE HOUSE....a couple leagues a week....and has no inkling to ever go the tournament route or join a sport league...has absolutely no need or business carrying a 4-11 ball arsenal and learning "the modern release". In MOST cases...it'll be more detrimental to their game than helpful.

And where I deviate from the "modern bowling" theories is that NO MATTER WHAT the changes to lane conditions or bowling balls...the BOTTOM LINE is it's still a ball going 60 feet into 10 pins. The GAME hasn't changed. It's still about accuracy and consistent shots. It's STILL about picking up spares. We've unfortunately forgot that as we've gotten lost in the new era of everyone getting 2-3 "300 games" per year...and averages in the 220-250 range for most good house bowlers. I think we sometimes make this game out to be harder than it has to be. Straighter is still greater. The pocket is still in the same spot. A bowler with consistency and good lateral movement will still have an advantage over some cranker or thumbless bowler that gets above average carry but can't consistently hit their spot.

I've struggled with it as well. Probably more than most. It seems logical that if I want to be the best I can be...I NEED to learn the most advanced approaches and throw the most advanced equipment. But thats not the case. Rolling a bigger hook ball actually hurt my game. Trying to throw "correctly" actually made my average go down. Because I started worrying more about pin carry and optimal angles and I stopped concentrating on accuracy and consistency. I convinced myself that if you can't throw with the same release as Chris Barnes...you might as well just quit the sport and play Wii bowling.

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't all strive to get better and be the best we can be. And I'm NOT going to settle for just being a pathetic house bowler that rolls a 200 average and throws 3 300-games a season but never strives for anything more. I WILL eventually play in amateur tournaments and expand my game. But I doubt the PBA will even be around by the time I get good and consistent enough to move to the next level...and if they are...they only exist to showcase the same 30 bowlers we've seen for the last 7 years...it's more "entertainment" than bowling.

So...after boring Mudpuppy to death with the above...in a nutshell...the "need" for a modern release came from the "need" for modern equipment...which came from the "need" to increase scoring which came from the "need" to make bowling more popular to the masses. We're trying to tell the bowling public that they "need" to develop this release....because it's a different game....because WE MADE IT a different game. We "need" to control a hook that we PUT IN the ball. Had we not made the equipment so hook dominant in the first place...we wouldn't have the "need" to change our releases. So follow Mike White's example...throw a Storm Polar Ice or Storm Mix...standard release...= 300-game. Don't MAKE the game more complicated then complain that you need the "modern release" because now the game is more complicated.

I'm still working with DYDS...I'm still open to changing my release. But the bottom line is...taking your hand from the inside quadrant to back of the ball...rotates the ball the same as taking your hand from behind the ball and moving it a quarter up the side. Same rev direction...same rev rate...same ball...same everything. There's NOTHING wrong with the old release. If you bought a new ball and it hooks too much...thats your own damn fault. Learn to play inside. Learn to increase your speed or loft. I disagree with Rob...You CAN outbowl a bad ball reaction. It's a BALL!! It's not an alien species! YOU're in control!! The ball doesn't skid 45 feet and make a conscious decision to "not hook"....it's a BALL...it does what you make it do!

1. I read it all in its entirety without yawning or any boredom. It was a good post. Do I agree 100%? No. But you make some good points.
2. What is wrong with WII bowling?
3. Personally I love all the hook that has been put into the modern balls - when it destroys the pins it is such a beautiful sight

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

[zdawg]

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

Same here, in fact if I string together 3 or 4 strikes its a guarantee that the next one my wrist will break, my release will start too early and I'll come over the top, or I'll pull the ball. Frustrating, but that's why I focus 100% on my release for now until I can get much better consistency.

[Aslan]

1. I read it all in its entirety without yawning or any boredom. It was a good post. Do I agree 100%? No. But you make some good points.
2. What is wrong with WII bowling?
3. Personally I love all the hook that has been put into the modern balls - when it destroys the pins it is such a beautiful sight

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

For the Win!! So suck it critics!! Aslan ROCKZ!! Even Mudpuppy thinks so!!

[RobLV1]

Aslan, you are absolutely right... it all depends on your goals. When someone throws an honor score using a plastic or urethane bowling ball, I will be the first to contratulate him (or her). I know that for a league bowler, that 300 game is going to be a memory that will last a lifetime. I also know that the bowler will never be able to compete in a tournament on a sport shot, because he can't adjust, but that's O.K., because he'll probably never even want to bowl on a sport shot. Keep in mind that we, the bowlers, didn't invent the modern game, the bowling centers and the ball manufacturers did. Try to outbowl a bad ball reaction as much as you want, you won't: guaranteed!

[tccstudent]

Aslan, you are absolutely right... it all depends on your goals. When someone throws an honor score using a plastic or urethane bowling ball, I will be the first to contratulate him (or her). I know that for a league bowler, that 300 game is going to be a memory that will last a lifetime. I also know that the bowler will never be able to compete in a tournament on a sport shot, because he can't adjust, but that's O.K., because he'll probably never even want to bowl on a sport shot. Keep in mind that we, the bowlers, didn't invent the modern game, the bowling centers and the ball manufacturers did. Try to outbowl a bad ball reaction as much as you want, you won't: guaranteed!
Why cant you throw plastic or urethane on a sport shot or at a tournament.
I have a few friends that was bowling at the PBA regional in Lubbock around July and one cashed pretty high throwing urethane lofting the gutters. the others said they lanes were so dry half the people there were throwing plastic.

[Mike White]

Aslan, you are absolutely right... it all depends on your goals. When someone throws an honor score using a plastic or urethane bowling ball, I will be the first to contratulate him (or her).

I wonder who the him or her Rob is referring to.


I know that for a league bowler, that 300 game is going to be a memory that will last a lifetime.

"I know" is a bit of an overstatement. Had you included the word probably, then it would be acceptable, but to claim knowledge where you have none… Thats not smart.

I have a boat load of 279 games… had that been my highest score ever, I doubt I would have remembered each one.
As it is, I only remember few specific ones due to the unique situation they occurred.
My first 700 included a 279 game, shot with an old Manhattan Rubber ball.
At another bowling alley (now a Toys-R-Us) I shot 279 with a solid 8 pin.
One week before my first 300 I shot a 279. Only a solid 8 away from 300.
When I moved to Florida and joined a scratch league, my first game was 279, 10 pin in the 5th frame.



I also know that the bowler will never be able to compete in a tournament on a sport shot, because he can't adjust, but that's O.K., because he'll probably never even want to bowl on a sport shot.

More knowledge from thin air.
The conditions in the 80's were a lot harder than today's THS.
Had a house put out a shot equivalent to a THS, the ABC would have rejected all honor scores bowled on it.
Since I haven't had the opportunity to bowl on a "sport shot" I can't say how hard those are compared to the past.
There is one supposed to be starting in June near me. I'll make an extra effort to bowl in it.

As for tournament bowling:
I also bowled in the ABC nationals during the 80's.
In the early 80's, I bowled in the local ABT tournaments about a dozen times, taking 5th place, and 1st place once each.
I stopped bowling in the ABT because I was rerated to 195/0 handicap.
Turns out the tournament director saw more talent in me, than I saw myself at the time.

Back in the 80's I pretty much used one ball for multiple seasons.
In the later 80's, and early 90's I averaged 200+ in scratch, and handicap leagues in multiple houses.
I think that would qualify as an ability to adjust.


Keep in mind that we, the bowlers, didn't invent the modern game, the bowling centers and the ball manufacturers did.

Actually "we" the bowlers had a significant hand in inventing the modern game.
By flocking to the centers with higher scores, the centers had an incentive to make the conditions easier.
When the ABC rejected scores on too easy of conditions, the BPAA threatened to self sanction their leagues if the ABC continued to reject scores.
Since league bowling is the ABC's only source of income, the ABC relented.

As far as ball manufactures are concerned, I think they were looking in their financial interests.
In the 80's, if you grouped bowlers by average range, the largest group would be the 150-160 type of bowler.
Most of the 150-160 bowlers I saw back then had a hard time getting the 5 pin down, leaving plenty of 2-4-5-8 buckets.
It seems consistent that the reactive resin ball was designed to help this group get the ball to roll better, without any improvement in their physical game.

The down side is that for many people who are scoring high in a league setting now, their physical game looks worse than the 160 bowler in the past.


Try to outbowl a bad ball reaction as much as you want, you won't: guaranteed!

Maybe the problem is with the modern ball in that it can only be effective if thrown in a limited number of ways.

From experience, I know what happens if you over-rev a modern ball..
It's a bit of a shock to see the ball on 8 board at 39 feet (end of pattern), and in the left gutter by 50 feet.

[Aslan]

Mikey...you're MISSING THE POINT...that both Mudpuppy and Rob agree with me and think I'm right.

All other debates are inconsequential.

[Mudpuppy]

Mikey...you're MISSING THE POINT...that both Mudpuppy and Rob agree with me and think I'm right.

All other debates are inconsequential.

Whoah there asian. Don't go ordering I am right PBA ring or anything just yet. I said good post and you make some good points. I didn't blindly agree with you. It was a closed course with a professional driver don't try this at home.

[Mike White]

Mikey...you're MISSING THE POINT...that both Mudpuppy and Rob agree with me and think I'm right.

All other debates are inconsequential.

Any post that starts out with "Aslan, you're absolutely right" I've got to argue with :)

[Mudpuppy]

Any post that starts out with "Aslan, you're absolutely right" I've got to argue with :)

Isn't that the BowlingBoards.com motto or mantra?