Why does my thumb come out so EASY when throwing a backup ball?

[zdawg]

But not when I'm trying to throw a regular hook? Today when practicing I threw a couple backup balls (inspired by Norm Duke's video and others) and noticed my thumb came out immediately and quickly, so much so when I tried to add revs my middle fingertip hurt because it bent the wrong way or something - but I CONSCIOUSLY recognized when my thumb was out and my fingers were the only thing left in the ball.

When I throw a "normal" hook, I NEVER get the conscious feeling that my thumb is out of the ball first and my fingers are alone directing the rotation, leading me to believe that the thumb just doesn't get out quick enough going counterclockwise as it does clockwise (I throw righthanded). Anybody else ever experience this? Its weird, but I want to be able to throw my regular ball the way I can a backup ball, I'm convinced my thumb is holding me back LOL

[RobLV1]

What a great observation! The reason that the thumb is harder to get out of the ball when you "try to add revs" is that you are turning the ball too early. If you turn before your thumb is out of the ball, the angle that you have created makes it much more difficult to get the thumb out. Once you learn that a modern release incorporates much longer release timing (the time between when the thumb exits and when the fingers exit), then the concept that the release starts from the back-up ball hand position, but ends in the traditional position, is a whole lot easier to comprehend. You've made a great start toward really improving your release. Keep working at it!

[zdawg]

What a great observation! The reason that the thumb is harder to get out of the ball when you "try to add revs" is that you are turning the ball too early. If you turn before your thumb is out of the ball, the angle that you have created makes it much more difficult to get the thumb out. Once you learn that a modern release incorporates much longer release timing (the time between when the thumb exits and when the fingers exit), then the concept that the release starts from the back-up ball hand position, but ends in the traditional position, is a whole lot easier to comprehend. You've made a great start toward really improving your release. Keep working at it!

Thanks Rob, and this makes much more sense to me now. Overall my release has been improving in tiny increments, now I'm gonna focus on not turning my hand early and see if I can't get a similar feeling. Its funny I've watched the video where Norm Duke talks about the backup ball, and even read an article on the backup ball drill, but until I actually tried it I had trouble making the connection.

[RobLV1]

The other factor that is mentioned in the "Modern Release" video, but really not tied into the release enough, is the knee continuing to extend toward the target after the release. The reason for this is that, unlike in traditional times, modern bowlers are encouraged to increase the spine tile (forward) throughout the shot. This is one of the main ways that the release timing is increased, giving you time to turn through the ball after the thumb has exited.

[Mike White]

What a great observation! The reason that the thumb is harder to get out of the ball when you "try to add revs" is that you are turning the ball too early. If you turn before your thumb is out of the ball, the angle that you have created makes it much more difficult to get the thumb out. Once you learn that a modern release incorporates much longer release timing (the time between when the thumb exits and when the fingers exit), then the concept that the release starts from the back-up ball hand position, but ends in the traditional position, is a whole lot easier to comprehend. You've made a great start toward really improving your release. Keep working at it!

An interesting mashup of unrelated thoughts.

But the dogma has to leak out.

I understand, you've been taught "try to add revs" is the root of all evil.

Ever consider that the problem might be as simple as his lateral thumb pitch isn't correct for the release he is normally attempting?

[MICHAEL]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/tugofwar_zpscb5de36b.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/tugofwar_zpscb5de36b.jpg.html)

You guys trip me OUT!! LOL

[Mike White]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/tugofwar_zpscb5de36b.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/tugofwar_zpscb5de36b.jpg.html)

You guys trip me OUT!! LOL

I tell ya, he is sounding more and more like another billf every time.

zdawg said when he tried to add revs to his backup ball it hurt his fingers.

Somehow that became turning the ball early on his normal shot.

[noeymc]

An interesting mashup of unrelated thoughts.

But the dogma has to leak out.

I understand, you've been taught "try to add revs" is the root of all evil.

Ever consider that the problem might be as simple as his lateral thumb pitch isn't correct for the release he is normally attempting?

i was going to say the ball is drilled poorly for him

[Mike White]

The other factor that is mentioned in the "Modern Release" video, but really not tied into the release enough, is the knee continuing to extend toward the target after the release. The reason for this is that, unlike in traditional times, modern bowlers are encouraged to increase the spine tile (forward) throughout the shot. This is one of the main ways that the release timing is increased, giving you time to turn through the ball after the thumb has exited.

The proof is in the pudding.

A bowlers initial Axis Rotation, and Axis Tilt is a function of all the movements during the release.

If the bowler has moved the fingers from the inside, to the back of the ball while the thumb was out of the ball, their axis tilt would be very high.

Since their axis tilt isn't very high, all of that movement you describe is happening while the thumb is still in the ball.

Knee continuation, and spine tilt have very little to do with a quality release.

[Doghouse Reilly]

An interesting mashup of unrelated thoughts.

But the dogma has to leak out.

I understand, you've been taught "try to add revs" is the root of all evil.

Ever consider that the problem might be as simple as his lateral thumb pitch isn't correct for the release he is normally attempting?

why couldn't you just suggest a alternate answer to zdawg's question, without attacking this guy rob.

You could have of just said another possible cause is that his lateral pitch isn't correct and have it checked and left off the BS.

[MICHAEL]

why couldn't you just suggest a alternate answer to zdawg's question, without attacking this guy rob.

You could have of just said another possible cause is that his lateral pitch isn't correct and have it checked and left off the BS.



BINGO!


ONE differeance between Rob and Bill Mike, is I caught Bill lying!! BIG difference! LOL What I am seeing here between you and Rob are professional differences!!
ok are your ready: LOL

Don't attack,,, just React!! (:) LOL That goes both ways!! NOW BOTH OF you to your corners! Give your opinions based on what YOU believe to be true, and accurate, no need for the tug-of-war! (:)

Speaking for many of us here, we appreciate both your thoughts! (Iceman was elected to speak for the bowlingboard.com members)! Or was that in a dream,, ( me being elected).

[vdubtx]

why couldn't you just suggest a alternate answer to zdawg's question, without attacking this guy rob.

You could have of just said another possible cause is that his lateral pitch isn't correct and have it checked and left off the BS.

They have a contentious history for some reason. One says one thing the other says something else. They seemingly will never agree on anything from what I have read.

[zdawg]

I tell ya, he is sounding more and more like another billf every time.

zdawg said when he tried to add revs to his backup ball it hurt his fingers.

Somehow that became turning the ball early on his normal shot.

Actually to clarify, when I threw the backup ball I experienced a sensation that I don't normally get with my regular release, that is the thumb coming out of the ball cleanly/effortlessly before my other fingers, and me being able to consciously "feel" it - it wasn't something I was expecting.

It "felt" the way that the slow motion release looks on the 10 pin analysis video where you can see the fingers still in the ball adding rotation after the thumb has clearly exited if that makes any sense. So now I'm trying to figure out how to get that type of reaction from my normal release.

Oh, and the reason my middle finger got sore is I'm assuming its not used to that movement if that makes any sense. Of course I'm going on assumptions at this point, as this was the first time I ever tried throwing a backup ball, also the amount of rotation of my fingers was minimal compared to my normal release - I'm guessing this has to do with my bad habit on my regular release of coming up the side rather than staying behind the ball. On the backup ball my hand has no choice but to stay behind the ball since my wrist obviously won't allow it to go up the side of the ball in that direction.

[RobLV1]

O.K., this is the last response that I will ever make to anything that Mike White posts. Mike, you obviously have some serious issues. I have never attacked you. If anything, I have really shown a lot of self-control to avoid doing so. If I say anything, you will tell the world that I am wrong. So be it! Mike, you are right about everything! You can quote me, because I am not going to play your stupid games. I see that others have realized that your mode is to attack. Despite that, I will try to help people. If you tell them I'm wrong, AGAIN, then they'll just have to decide for themselves. For me, I'm done. Get some help!

[noeymc]

why couldn't you just suggest a alternate answer to zdawg's question, without attacking this guy rob.

You could have of just said another possible cause is that his lateral pitch isn't correct and have it checked and left off the BS.

no bad info = bad id want to be corrected if i was wrong

[Mike White]

why couldn't you just suggest a alternate answer to zdawg's question, without attacking this guy rob.

You could have of just said another possible cause is that his lateral pitch isn't correct and have it checked and left off the BS.

Yeah I could have just mentioned the pitch, but every time Rob posts his factually incorrect dogma, it reminds me of this guy.

If you just listen to what he says, it's not bad. But his demonstration of it is a joke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxA6tZaAzjE

Ok ya messed up, just don't post the messed up part on Youtube.

[Mike White]

They have a contentious history for some reason. One says one thing the other says something else. They seemingly will never agree on anything from what I have read.

I tried to just ask questions about his ramblings, back in http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15905-Medium-Rg-mean-medium-oil-use?p=98882&viewfull=1#post98882

He was sure he was correct. And even added more ramblings.

When presented with a discussion based on physics he became silent.

Some of the info he has presented here is of value, but he just doesn't know the difference between his good stuff, and his crap.

I only correct his crap.