BowlingBoards.com Southern California Tour: Inaugural Season

[Aslan]

After our 1st Annual Invitational featuring Mike W., myself, and ZDawg…Mike came up with an idea to put a tour together a league where we could had more of a competition than just "one game champion".

So here is the initial proposal:

One game, 1st Saturday of each month starting in April. Bowling centers picked at random from all centers within 90 miles (or so) of San Diego; including lanes from SDUSBC, Citris Belt USBC, Northern and Southern LA USBCs, and OCUSBC. The first draw of Temecula Lanes will be thrown out. Multiple draws of the same lane will be drawn again:

April: Del Rosa Lanes, San Bernadino, CA
May: LaHabra300 Bowl, La Habra, CA
June: Brunswick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA
July: Forest Lanes, Forest Lake CA
August: Councourse Bowl, Anaheim CA
September: Temecula Lanes, Temecula CA
October: AMF Hemet Lanes, Hemet CA
November: Yucca Bowl, Yucca Valley CA
December: Trevi Bowling Center, Lake Elsinore CA

Rules:
- Open to all BowlingBoard.com users.
- Initial average based on current USBC sanctioned average. If not currently carrying a usbc average, it'll be based on the previous year's USBC average. If that does not exist, then the highest current year league average will be used.
- After 2 competitions, tour average will be used.
- Handicap based on 90% of 220.
- Can re-schedule to an alternate Saturday with unanimous agreement of zdawg, MWhite, and Aslan.
- If unable to reschedule and unable to make it, you will bowl blank at 90% of your average (Tour Average if established).
- Bowling in one's own house (Aslan, August, Councourse Bowling Center I think is the only one on the schedule) costs you 10 pins handicap per game.
- Standard USBC rules apply.

[Mike White]

After our 1st Annual Invitational featuring Mike W., myself, and ZDawg…Mike came up with an idea to put a tour together a league where we could had more of a competition than just "one game champion".

So here is the initial proposal:

One game, 1st Saturday of each month starting in April. Bowling centers picked at random from all centers within 90 miles (or so) of San Diego; including lanes from SDUSBC, Citris Belt USBC, Northern and Southern LA USBCs, and OCUSBC. The first draw of Temecula Lanes will be thrown out. Multiple draws of the same lane will be drawn again:

April: Del Rosa Lanes, San Bernadino, CA
May: LaHabra300 Bowl, La Habra, CA
June: Brunswick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA
July: Forest Lanes, Forest Lake CA
August: Councourse Bowl, Anaheim CA
September: Temecula Lanes, Temecula CA
October: AMF Hemet Lanes, Hemet CA
November: Yucca Bowl, Yucca Valley CA
December: Trevi Bowling Center, Lake Elsinore CA

Rules:
- Open to all BowlingBoard.com users.
- Initial average based on current USBC sanctioned average. If not currently carrying a usbc average, it'll be based on the previous year's USBC average. If that does not exist, then the highest current year league average will be used.
- After 2 competitions, tour average will be used.
- Handicap based on 90% of 220.
- Can re-schedule to an alternate Saturday with unanimous agreement of zdawg, MWhite, and Aslan.
- If unable to reschedule and unable to make it, you will bowl blank at 90% of your average (Tour Average if established).
- Bowling in one's own house (Aslan, August, Councourse Bowling Center I think is the only one on the schedule) costs you 10 pins handicap per game.
- Standard USBC rules apply.

There should be at least three games per event. I ain't driving all that way for one game.
Eliminate Del Rosa, it is in a bad part of town.
Since all members are eligible we need a way to mail in results
Averages should be highest usbc composite average (non sport) for last 3 years, not a tourney average
Handicap should be 90% of 250, so nobody will be over the base.
Eliminate the bowl blank part. If no scores for the month, not eligible for the months title.
When they do bowl again, use their last 5 events for a total.

[noeymc]

so can i get in on this?

only thing i am in ohio so can i just bowl in houses around here lol

my composite avg would be 174

and my highest avg as of now is 188 but i was only subbing there but pretty sure its 185-188 i have 35+ games

http://www.rebmanrec.com/ home lanes

http://www.bowlbrunswick.com/about-us/234/1

http://www.buckeyebowling.com/ neverbowled here

http://strikeoutlanes.com/ never bowled here

http://www.oberlin.edu/bowling/main.html ( scores would be hand written as they dont have computers but
but its a very hard shot Chris Loschetter bowls there )

http://www.americanslovakclub.com/bowlingcenter/ never bowled here

http://www.parklanesamherst.com/ never bowled here

http://lakeerielanes.com/ bowled city here

[tccstudent]

so can i get in on this?

only thing i am in ohio so can i just bowl in houses around here lol

If you let him in you gotta let me in too
there is 5 houses around here
I bowl league in 2 of them and I am in a travel league that rotates through 4 houses
there is one house in town I never bowl at

My book from last year is 186 Currently I have 189,191,196 in my three leagues.

[Mike White]

I'm thinking with all the possible entries, we should just use the first league session of the month, wherever that happens to be.

We just need to find some agreed upon way of verifying the scores.

[Mike White]

so can i get in on this?

only thing i am in ohio so can i just bowl in houses around here lol

my composite avg would be 174

and my highest avg as of now is 188 but i was only subbing there but pretty sure its 185-188 i have 35+ games

http://www.rebmanrec.com/ home lanes

http://www.bowlbrunswick.com/about-us/234/1

http://www.buckeyebowling.com/ neverbowled here

http://strikeoutlanes.com/ never bowled here

http://www.oberlin.edu/bowling/main.html ( scores would be hand written as they dont have computers but
but its a very hard shot Chris Loschetter bowls there )

http://www.americanslovakclub.com/bowlingcenter/ never bowled here

http://www.parklanesamherst.com/ never bowled here

http://lakeerielanes.com/ bowled city here

Assuming you are Noah McMillan, USBC Member ID: 9407-9166.

While you do have a 2012-2013 average of 161 for 42 games, you don't appear to be bowling in a sanctioned league in the 2013-2014 season.

Is this true?

[Mike White]

If you let him in you gotta let me in too
there is 5 houses around here
I bowl league in 2 of them and I am in a travel league that rotates through 4 houses
there is one house in town I never bowl at

My book from last year is 186 Currently I have 189,191,196 in my three leagues.

According to USBC:

2009-2010 182 for 246 games
2010-2011 175 for 24 games
2011-2012 None
2012-2013 186 for 94 games

That is ignoring the 168 average for 39 games in 2012-2013, because it is listed as a PBA Experience league. Sport condition scores are not included.

So your highest for the last 3 years is 186, as you stated.

Had 2009-2010 been your highest, I'm not sure if we should have included it…
It's your last 3 seasons, but 2009-2010 was 4 seasons back.

I guess that is something to be discussed.

In my case Member ID: 1560-11073

2011-2012 195 for 27 games
2012-2013 188 for 117 games
2013-2014 192 for 30 games

The question is when do we start using 2013-2014.
I feel if there is an average listed, it should be included as one of the 3 years.
I believe averages will be submitted on/about April 15th, even if the league hasn't completed.

[noeymc]

no i am i have 3 things on there and my avgs arent on there i can grab a score sheet for u guys and take a pic they dont even have my youth avgs i bowled 5 years in youth and it only has one year i even did pepsi cola 2 times


it should have 2 leagues up there one at bz and one at rebmans

[tccstudent]

My tuesday night league is loaded on league secretary This one does not show individual game scores
My wednesday is NOT uploaded
My friday is uploaded on Bowl.com and this on will show the score of each game

So for me the travel league on friday night I can link the standing sheet and you would be able to see each game

[noeymc]

BZ is where my high avg of 188 is i wont be able to get a score sheet till i sub again that doesnt happen any more latly but it has over 35-40 games bowled in that house ill use that one cuz if i get out this up down slump i am in to use any of my other avgs i dont think would be fair granted its by far the easist shot in the world prob lol but i was avg 185+ every where till i hit a rough spot so if there no obj ill go with 188 at bz at rebmans i think my avg is 178? ( shot a 405 the worse i think ive bowled since i started bowling again lol so it droped from 180 to 178 lol and as u can see my 161 avg last year was at a very tough house its funny there where only 3 people with over 200 avgs 213 225( owner) 201 at the end of the season and it was everyones lowest avg i love house's like that to bad they closed

[zdawg]

My league is still going on, since its my first league I don't have a previous average (obviously).

This is week 27 of 33, but if they do submit our averages April 15th regardless of whether the league has finished then I'll have something listed by then. If not, my league uses leaguesecretary.com not to mention the alley my league is at posts the rosters on their website so you can easily ascertain my current average there as well.

[Aslan]

Okay...there's been some major confusion in less than 24 hours.

1) It's a series, 1st Saturday of the month, IN PERSON, just like what we did in Temecula...except we don't crown a champ until the end of the year. It's just a mini-travel-league, non sanctioned.

2) We're not eliminating one house because it's in a "bad area". Don't get me wrong...I'm kinda ticked that the stupid random number generator picked San Bernadino and Yucca Valley...which were like as FAR on the outskirts of the area as possible....but whatever. I'm from Detroit...where every bowling alley is in a bad area. It cant be worse than Detroit. There was one off 8-mile that I was going to try (cuz it was by my friend's house in Hazel Park) but the night before we were going to go there, there was a shooting there...so we passed.

IF...you and ZDawg....BOTH want to "re-do" the list....then we can go to a list where we each pick 3 houses. But we're not eliminating one for this reason and one for another reason, etc... Pretty soon Mike will just be eliminating houses he's afraid might have a reverse block oiling pattern...and then we'll never find a place to bowl at.

3) All members are eligible...but they have to show up IN PERSON. You can't "mail in" results. This site is a cheater's paradise...people would just be mailing in 700-800 series without even bowling. Remember Bill F? We'll have guys claiming to be former PBA legends and using unsanctioned scores or no-tap scores...no way...thats just silly. You want the glory...show up and take it.

4) Averages will START based on your highest USBC average....but will after the 2nd week be based on your first 2 weeks of Tour play. Just like any league. Zdawg and I don't even have 3 years of averages.

5) 90% of 250!!? NNTBZZZZT!! Stop cheating!! I know you're scared after getting trounced in the invitational...but 90% of 250 is ABSURD!! Thats 20 pins higher than even the HIGHEST commonly used. 90% of 220 is perfectly acceptable. If you average over 198 (.9 x 220)....you shouldn't NEED handicap!! Everyone 198 and over bowls scratch. I'd be open to 90% of 230 (207)....but if the goal is to just make it a scratch league...then whats the point of me and zdawg participating??

6) As for bowling "blind"....I don't really care much...I just think if it's me, you, and zdawg...there's gonna be 1 event or so where "something comes up"...and while that should be perfectly 'okay'...we dont want to make the attendence so mandatory that it makes people not wanna participate....we also want to encourage participation by saying, "it's okay to miss", but you bowl blind at 90% of your average for that series at that location. But I'm open to other ideas on this.

Okay MWhite and ZDawg (and other SoCal potential entrants)...we're in the early planning stages....there's still 3 weeks before the proposed start date for the 9-month Mini-Travel League Spectacular. Are we going to be able to agree on locations? Averages? Handicap? Or will these negotiations take us into April?? We DID manage to put together a fairly error-free Invitational...so fans are optimistic...

....but after the fallout from the invitational, Aslan's victory in question, MWhite's accusations of oil pattern manipulation...will future events just be too difficult to arrange?? Only time will tell. Stay Tuned!! Same BAT Time, same BAT channel!!

[mc_runner]

I don't think I'm going to have the time to do it this year but if there's a second round, I think it sounds fun! And a good excuse to try out different alleys - I have about 20 (no exaggeration) within 20 miles of me.

For different places, would pictures of the games count? Or maybe an "eyewitness"/bowling buddy to verify?

[mc_runner]

I don't think I'm going to have the time to do it this year but if there's a second round, I think it sounds fun! And a good excuse to try out different alleys - I have about 20 (no exaggeration) within 20 miles of me.

For different places, would pictures of the games count? Or maybe an "eyewitness"/bowling buddy to verify?

Still having problems editing posts... replied before your most recent update, Aslan. SoCal is a little far to travel to bowl :)

[Aslan]

I don't think I'm going to have the time to do it this year but if there's a second round, I think it sounds fun! And a good excuse to try out different alleys - I have about 20 (no exaggeration) within 20 miles of me.

For different places, would pictures of the games count? Or maybe an "eyewitness"/bowling buddy to verify?

As much as I'd love to have mc runner participate...you're gonna have to move to California...sorry buddy. I'm sure Connecticut is cool....I've been out that way before...far too many seafood restaurants...but other than that very nice. But on THIS site...we simply cannot use mailed in averages/scores. Cheaters paradise!

Don't get me wrong...and this is one issue Iceman and I are in lock step on....we SHOULD be able to trust people...and people SHOULDN'T cheat in bowling.... But year after year....bowlers sandbag...internet bowlers tell fish stories...again, and again, and again. Whether cash is on the line, a trophy, a towel, even just "pride"...there's always gonna be a handful of people with such low self worth...that they NEED that small victory to justify their otherwise rather useless existences.

Plus....we're all a bit befuddled by Iceman and Jamau's bowling dominence...and there's a theory that bowling alleys in Missouri are tilted or uneven or something...maybe only 30ft long...not sure...but until that gets ironed out...gotta keep this thing 'in person'.

But hey, move out to Cali. Far less snow. Very mild winters. And really cool bowlers...like me and ZDawg.

[tccstudent]

I think Aslan is just afraid of competition
All that needs to be done to keep people from cheating is have a rule that only score that are uploaded to league secretary or bowl.com counts.
Here is the sheet from my friday night league where it states each game
http://lss.bowl.com/leagueStandingSheets/SheetFileDownloadServlet

[vdubtx]

I think Aslan is just afraid of competition
All that needs to be done to keep people from cheating is have a rule that only score that are uploaded to league secretary or bowl.com counts.
Here is the sheet from my friday night league where it states each game
http://lss.bowl.com/leagueStandingSheets/SheetFileDownloadServlet

Only problem is that not all centers are listed on that. I have found more listed at Leaguesecretary.com, but then again, not all update weekly.

[tccstudent]

Then some sheet dont actually show the scores you shot that week just the season highs my tuesday league is like that.
http://www.leaguesecretary.com/bowling-alleys/oklahoma/broken-arrow/broken-arrow-lanes/bowling-leagues/ultimate/55934/leaguefilesstandings.aspx
But both of my leagues that are uploaded are uploaded the next day

[Aslan]

Only problem is that not all centers are listed on that. I have found more listed at Leaguesecretary.com, but then again, not all update weekly.

Ding Ding Ding!!

A LOT of leagues use LeagueSecretary...but many do not. Many leagues, you don't know the results until you get the score sheet the following week and they don't update the averages, awards, etc... until the end of the season in Bowl.com.

It WOULD be awesome if:

A) Everyone bowled in a sanctioned league.
B) Scores were entered each day into Bowl.com.
C) We could start a "virtual league" for BB members based on our real results.

But there's literally no way to do that and verify authenticity. At the Invitational, all 3 of us were there and it was videotaped...so no way to play with the numbers. And even then we had a "mini controversy" because I had a ball jump out of the gutter and hit the 10-pin...but we left it 1 / rather than have the desk mark it as a - and reset an entire rack for the 2nd shot. It didn't affect the score (coming off an open frame) and the place was super busy...so we just left it. But then the question gets raised..."Would you have carried the 10-pin had it been there?" I think so...based on the pin action...but it's unclear.

So imagine a "virtual league" where you got a guy like MWhite...who bowls a 127. Worst game in 3 years. You think he's submitting that??! Mikes a stand-up guy...as are many of the high level bowlers on this site...but even Iceman who prides himself on character....even HE would have to at least "think twice" when "Mr. 300" suddenly throws a 98 "when it counts".

[mc_runner]

I think there are ways to do it. My teammate does an online virtual league for fun, he takes pics of his signed scoresheet then sends them in. I'll ask him about it tomorrow - I think they are even on leaguesecretary.

[zdawg]

I think there are ways to do it. My teammate does an online virtual league for fun, he takes pics of his signed scoresheet then sends them in. I'll ask him about it tomorrow - I think they are even on leaguesecretary.

Might be something like this: http://virtualtournaments.com/

My understanding is they only use scores from sanctioned leagues, and they call the bowling centers to verify the scores after they've been reported

[noeymc]

you can get print offs of scores and and most times u can see how many times they edited it :(

[Mike White]

Okay...there's been some major confusion in less than 24 hours.

The biggest confusion is you thinking you're in charge.

Your comments below show you lack the bowling IQ required to make sound and fair decisions.


1) It's a series, 1st Saturday of the month, IN PERSON, just like what we did in Temecula...except we don't crown a champ until the end of the year. It's just a mini-travel-league, non sanctioned.

I'd rather organize something more inclusive of the whole membership.


2) We're not eliminating one house because it's in a "bad area". Don't get me wrong...I'm kinda ticked that the stupid random number generator picked San Bernadino and Yucca Valley...which were like as FAR on the outskirts of the area as possible....but whatever. I'm from Detroit...where every bowling alley is in a bad area. It cant be worse than Detroit. There was one off 8-mile that I was going to try (cuz it was by my friend's house in Hazel Park) but the night before we were going to go there, there was a shooting there...so we passed.

Well considering there has been 4 murders in the area just this month, I think I'll pass as well.


IF...you and ZDawg....BOTH want to "re-do" the list....then we can go to a list where we each pick 3 houses. But we're not eliminating one for this reason and one for another reason, etc... Pretty soon Mike will just be eliminating houses he's afraid might have a reverse block oiling pattern...and then we'll never find a place to bowl at.

Then we'll never fine a place. So the other option is to allow everyone interested to bowl at the location they are currently scheduled to be at.


3) All members are eligible...but they have to show up IN PERSON. You can't "mail in" results. This site is a cheater's paradise...people would just be mailing in 700-800 series without even bowling. Remember Bill F? We'll have guys claiming to be former PBA legends and using unsanctioned scores or no-tap scores...no way...thats just silly. You want the glory...show up and take it.

If you're so afraid of people cheating, don't participate.


4) Averages will START based on your highest USBC average....but will after the 2nd week be based on your first 2 weeks of Tour play. Just like any league. Zdawg and I don't even have 3 years of averages.

Lets think about this problem. If you and ZDawg don't have 3 years of averages, and the rule is your highest composite average in the last 3 years, I guess the one year you do have, will be your highest. Now wasn't that simple.



5) 90% of 250!!? NNTBZZZZT!! Stop cheating!! I know you're scared after getting trounced in the invitational...but 90% of 250 is ABSURD!! Thats 20 pins higher than even the HIGHEST commonly used. 90% of 220 is perfectly acceptable. If you average over 198 (.9 x 220)....you shouldn't NEED handicap!! Everyone 198 and over bowls scratch. I'd be open to 90% of 230 (207)....but if the goal is to just make it a scratch league...then whats the point of me and zdawg participating??

Just because it's something you don't understand, doesn't mean you need to be afraid of it.
Calling 90% of 250 cheating shows a complete lack of bowling IQ, and poor math skills.

Lets compare 90% of 220, vs 90% of 230, vs 90% of 250.

Lets assume we have a list of competitors with averages of 140, 160, 180, 200, 220, and 240.

At 90% of 220:

the 140 avg bowler gets 72 pins
the 160 avg bowler gets 54 pins
the 180 avg bowler gets 36 pins
the 200 avg bowler gets 18 pins
the 220 avg bowler gets 0 pins
the 240 avg bowler gets 0 pins.

If the 240 avg bowler shoots his average, the 140 bowler has to shoot 28 pins over average just to tie.

Notice the difference in the handicap between the 140, 160, 180, 200, and 220 bowler is 18 pins per 20 pins of average difference.

At 90% of 230:

the 140 avg bowler gets 81 pins
the 160 avg bowler gets 63 pins
the 180 avg bowler gets 45 pins
the 200 avg bowler gets 27 pins
the 220 avg bowler gets 9 pins
the 240 avg bowler gets 0 pins.

If the 240 avg bowler shoots his average, the 140 bowler has to shoot 19 pins over average just to tie.

Notice again. the difference in the handicap between the 140, 160, 180, 200, and 220 bowler is 18 pins per 20 pins of average difference.

Finally

At 90% of 250:

the 140 avg bowler gets 99 pins
the 160 avg bowler gets 81 pins
the 180 avg bowler gets 63 pins
the 200 avg bowler gets 45 pins
the 220 avg bowler gets 27 pins
the 240 avg bowler gets 9 pins.

If the 240 avg bowler shoots his average, the 140 bowler has to shoot 10 pins over average just to tie.

Notice this time, the difference in handicap is 18 pins per 20 pins of average difference for everyone under the assumption that no one averaging over 250 would be interested in competing is this.

Do you still think 90% of 250 is absurd, and or cheating?

Here, let me show you absurd, and cheating.

90% of 140.

My 192 would get 0 pins,
Aslan's 166 would get 0 pins.
ZDawgs 142 would get 0 pins.

Oh wait, it's the low number that is cheating, not the high number. Amazing isn't it.



6) As for bowling "blind"....I don't really care much...I just think if it's me, you, and zdawg...there's gonna be 1 event or so where "something comes up"...and while that should be perfectly 'okay'...we dont want to make the attendence so mandatory that it makes people not wanna participate....we also want to encourage participation by saying, "it's okay to miss", but you bowl blind at 90% of your average for that series at that location. But I'm open to other ideas on this.

Ok it's better to make it impossible (In Person) for people to participate, than just making it a little difficult (mandatory attendance).


Okay MWhite and ZDawg (and other SoCal potential entrants)...we're in the early planning stages....there's still 3 weeks before the proposed start date for the 9-month Mini-Travel League Spectacular. Are we going to be able to agree on locations? Averages? Handicap? Or will these negotiations take us into April?? We DID manage to put together a fairly error-free Invitational...so fans are optimistic...

....but after the fallout from the invitational, Aslan's victory in question, MWhite's accusations of oil pattern manipulation...will future events just be too difficult to arrange?? Only time will tell. Stay Tuned!! Same BAT Time, same BAT channel!!


You may plan all you want, but you've already shot yourself in the foot. Good luck getting anyone besides yourself to participate in your "Spectacular".

[noeymc]

if someone cheats on this they need a life its not like ur going to win anything its not like we care if your a good bowler we just care that u enjoy bowling

[Mike White]

if someone cheats on this they need a life its not like ur going to win anything its not like we care if your a good bowler we just care that u enjoy bowling

Can we take up a collection to buy noeymc a set of commas, periods, and the occasional question mark?

[tccstudent]

I had some extra laying around so I will just pass them over.....................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,????????????????????;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;::::::: ::::::::::::!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'''''''''''''"""""""""""""""""""""

[Aslan]

Well, it sounds like the Southern California Tour ended as fast as it began.

I thought the idea was instead of doing a 1-game tournament we do a monthly "tour" and use wins or pinfall or something like that spread out over x many months. Now it seems that Mike's idea is some kind of virtual tournament where we never actually meet up and bowl, we just use reported scores...which just doesn't make sense to me because we'd be bowling at completely different houses on different conditions on different days...or if we expand it...even different states/countries. I don't see how that shows much of anything....even if people are honest (which I guarantee some wont be).

The Tour was an interesting idea, but we need 3 competitors minimum and it sounds like Mike is out.

As for the 90% of X...

If my average is 166, zdawg's is 151, and your's is 190...

Using 90% of 220;
ZDawg gets 47 pins per game
Aslan gets 32 pins per game
MWhite gets 8 pins per game

Using 90% of 230;
ZDawg gets 56 pins per game
Aslan gets 41 pins per game
MWhite gets 17 pins per game

Using 90% of 250;
ZDawg gets 74 pins per game
Aslan gets 59 pins per game
MWhite gets 35 pins per game

So using our last set of scores from the OFFICIAL tournament from early March:

At 90% of 220;
Aslan- 550; MWhite- 517, ZDawg- 513

At 90% of 230;
Aslan- 577; MWhite- 544; ZDawg- 540

At 90% of 250;
Aslan 631; MWhite- 598; ZDawg- 594

So really, it doesn't change much when using the example of my recent dominant performance...it only moves you ahead of ZDawg by a very slight margin. For some reason, I thought in that other post, that Bowl1820 showed the results coming out differently as the .90x was increased. So, I withdraw my objection. Using .9 of 250 will only help you against higher average bowlers and since that'll never be me or zdawg (or anyone else with the guts to show)...it'll never come into play.

ZDawg...still open to the idea of a Tour...we just need a 3rd. And I have no problem picking the 3 venues each...since Mike is afraid of San Bernadino (I aint thrilled about it either...mainly because it's like 2 hours drive for you and over an hour for me...same with Yucca Valley...stupid computer!). But then your 3 venues will probably be San Diego based...so thats a 1.5-2 hour drive for me. I could narrow the search a bit...Temecula, Murrieta, Lake Elsinore, Oceanside, Hemet....I mean, there ARE lanes that are more "in between"...I just thought it more fair (and interesting) to draw a semi-circle from Santa Monica over to San Bernadino down to Yucca Valley, then to San Diego. That half circle gives us a TON of options in 5 different counties, 4 different USBC regions. Unfortunately, the map scale wasn't entirely accurate so what I thought was a 90-mile radius turned out to be more like a 170-mile radius...and of course, the computer picked 2 of 9 centers that are 130-170 out. Luck of the draw I guess.

I also thought it was funny that it picked Temecula Lanes TWICE! I threw out the first one (since we just played there) but I'll be darned if it didn't pick it again! To set up the random draw, I put two entries into the system for each center in OCUSBC, SDUSBC, and Citrus Belt USBC...then I added 1 entry for the centers in the LAUSBC (mainly sourthern) that were within the radius. I set a range in the random number generator and it spit out numbers. 49 and 50 (of 95) were Temecula's numbers and it picked 49 first, then 50 later on. It didn't pick any San Diego centers....partly because I don't think there's that many centers. LA and the Citrus Belt had huge lists of centers...Orange County had a fair amount as well. But I think San Diego had 4 that weren't on military bases. But it's not "perfect"...because after doing the drawing...I don't remember seeing the Lanes in Oceanside or Fountain Valley on the lists...nor that Lucky Strike alley in Orange County...so I may have missed a few when I populated the list.

Even if we don't do the Tour, we should get together again and just do a friendly exhibition competition...even if Mike doesn't want in. If I take out all the centers that are kinda far of a drive for you, that still leaves us with:

June: Brunswick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA
September: Temecula Lanes, Temecula CA
October: AMF Hemet Lanes, Hemet CA
December: Trevi Bowling Center, Lake Elsinore CA

Those 4 are still doable.

[zdawg]

Even if we don't do the Tour, we should get together again and just do a friendly exhibition competition...even if Mike doesn't want in.

Cool, maybe we put the tour on hold until May. I'm hoping for good news this week, once that is taken care of I'll contact Mike and see if we can get a day where I come up to get my ball tri-grip-ified and we can maybe throw a few games then.

[kakcpa]

bowl it like a sweeper.....5 game qualifying, then cut the field to the top 50%, then single elimination matches.

[Blacksox1]

bowl it like a sweeper.....5 game qualifying, then cut the field to the top 50%, then single elimination matches.

This is a great idea. Keep it simple. 210 scratch, 80% handicap, max of 40 pins a game.

[Aslan]

Okay fellas!!!

Bowlingboards.com has reached out to me and like the idea of this whole "virtual tour" thing. They are even offering a $25 gift certificate to the winner if we put this thing together.

Now, since I hadn't originally designed it to be a "virtual tour"; I'm going to ask for some help/input.

Here are the issues we need some ideas/solutions to:

FORMAT and VALIDATION

FORMAT:
For format, I'm looking at a monthly submission. You bowl once per month and you submit the series results to me via PM or email. Each month, you must bowl at a different house. You lose 10 pins of handicap when you bowl at a house where you play in a league there. After 5 months, the top 50% of the entrants move on to a tournament format. The tournament will be single elimination until an ultimate champion is crowned.

THAT is the baseline FORMAT. But please feel free to add ANYTHING or ANY IDEAS you might have that are different, or might improve upon that format.

Next; VALIDATION:
And THIS is the tricky one. THIS is the part that is currently keeping this from being a reality.
1) It has to be handicap. If it's not, we'll lose 3/4 of the bowlers because they won't bother to participate when they KNOW they're going to lose. But what should we set as a FAIR handicap? 90% of 210? 220? 230? What handicap do we use?

IDEA #1: 90% of 220. Any participant with an established USBC average uses their most recent book average and will need to submit they're USBC number for validation. IF you don't have a Bowl.com average, you use your current, USBC sanctioned average. However, to validate this would require the person to submit a picture of their league sheet from the week PRIOR TO the week they bowl for the Tour. IF a bowler doesn't have a sanctioned book average nor is presently in a sanctioned league, we could use a non-sanctioned league average (NOT "no tap") with a penalty where those bowlers only get 70% rather than 90% of 220 for handicap. For those not in a league, no book, nothing…they bowl scratch.

2) We NEED a way to validate results. And this isn't as easy as just taking a picture of the score monitor. We need to have some way to validate that the person isn't picking and choosing whatever series is their best. The easiest way to do this is to make people bowl in the presence of other users. I meet up with Bunny one month, MWhite the next, maybe ZDawg the next, etc… That way they can validate my scores and I theirs.

But will that severely limit participation?? What if you're the only bowling boards user in your area??

As to equipment and other rules…probably not that important. I mean, USBC rules would apply but thats fairly standard.

So, lets get some serious input…try to iron out the details…and maybe we can unveil this thing in time for an April Round 1.

I'll handle governing it and getting the scores and publishing rankings and all that stuff. But I need some of you folks to help iron out some of the glaring validation issues and ensure the format doesn't have any glaring holes in it.

Thanks!!

[mc_runner]

Most alleys will print out your scoresheet if you ask - how about having them print it, then scan it in and email over to (someone)? The idea of a witness is good, but it might be an option for anyone not near others on here.

[noeymc]

the only person who was close to me was bill lololol u guys can trust him right heres my ideas


90% of 220 max handicap = 30 pins

a print off of all scores if you guys want i will have everyone send me there scores

3 game set vs one other person you must post 5 bowling lanes near u please put where you bowl at mike will pick for everyone east of the Mississippi alsan will pick for everyone west of it ( he wont pick for people in cali someone else will )

a print off of scores if the lanes mess up most print offs will show you fixed ur score you are allowed 1 fix per game you must put on here what time u will bowl this way the print off will show time/ date

single game sets we will use the highest avg for this season if u dont have one for this season you will bowl your 3 game set and get handicap off of that set

in order to get everyones avg please email me a pic of a updated score sheet i will then post with the user name with there avg

i say give it 2 weeks for sign ups and u have 2 days after the sign up last day to get the avgs in the 3rd day i will post avgs with the bowlingboards user name

any objections ? this is the most fair in my mind


http://challonge.com/tournament/bracket_generator

for the brackets

[Aslan]

Most alleys will print out your scoresheet if you ask - how about having them print it, then scan it in and email over to (someone)? The idea of a witness is good, but it might be an option for anyone not near others on here.

How can we stop people from bowling 3 games, not liking their scores, then bowling 3 more games? Lets say you go to Alley #1, bowl a 113-178-165. You figure, "why bother submitting that? Other than helping to bring my virtual tour average down...it's an embarassment." Then you go buy 3 more games and bowl a 242-194-184. <------We have to figure out a way around that. A witness means BOTH people would have to agree to be cheaters...which lessens the liklihood. It also serves the purpose of forcing some of you lame-o-trons to actually go meet someone from the website in person.

But I agree...we may need to provide an exception clause for those that sign up and simply don't have anyone from the website within 110 miles of them or something like that. We (and the website) want to get everyone involved as possible.



90% of 220 max handicap = 30 pins 90% of 220 is fine...but you're calculating it wrong. It's (.9 * 220) = 198. 198 - Average = HC. Everyone getting 30 pins would defeat the purpose of a handicap.


a print off of all scores if you guys want i will have everyone send me there scores
a print off of scores if the lanes mess up most print offs will show you fixed ur score you are allowed 1 fix per game you must put on here what time u will bowl this way the print off will show time/ date

Won't solve the problem (above).


3 game set vs one other person you must post 5 bowling lanes near u please put where you bowl at mike will pick for everyone east of the Mississippi alsan will pick for everyone west of it ( he wont pick for people in cali someone else will )
I like the idea of picking alleys for the bowlers...to push them outside their comfort zone. But if we get more than 15 bowlers interested, this could be time consuming. And if we have the requirement of another BBer there as a witness, it gets even more complicated. But I'm open to it.


single game sets we will use the highest avg for this season if u dont have one for this season you will bowl your 3 game set and get handicap off of that set
The way I see this is simple. Everyone starts with an established average (see my email). Since it's a TOUR and not an Invitational/tournament...the average will adjust from month to month. At the end of each month, I'll simply re-adjust the averages based on how well or badly the bowler did that month. Example:

Aslan enters with a USBC average of 165 (past season). Since it's not on Bowl.com yet (assuming), I simply provide the last scoresheet from last season validating the average. In April, I bowl my Tour event and bowl a 120-135-139. The average for that series is 131.33. Going into the May Tour event, my average becomes (131.33+165)/2 or 148.

"Winners" will be determined based on one or a combination of (input requested):
1) Most games bowled above your average.
2) Higest increase in average over the X months.
3) Total Handicap pinfall.
4) And/Or a blind match-up where people are paired (randomly) each month so lets say ZDawg gets randomly paired with MC_Runner...zdawg bowls a 149-151-138 (+ 141 (47/game) pins of HC) = 579. MC-Runner on the other side of the country bowls a 138-184-191 (+ 114 (38/game) pins of HC) = 627. ZDawg would get 1 point for winning Game 1. MC Runner would get 3 points for winning Games 2 and 3 and Total Pinfall.

One "idea" I have is that the person with the highest increase in average gets an automatic bid into the tournament. Same with Total HC Pinfall. Same with most games bowled above your average. So at the end of lets say 5 months...if we have 32 total participants...we give out 3 automatic bids based on pinfall, most improved, and most games bowled above your average....then take the 13 bowlers with the most points won (#4 above). Seeding will just be based on points. Thoughts??


in order to get everyones avg please email me a pic of a updated score sheet i will then post with the user name with there avg
Hold up. Most averages can be easily gotten by looking up their USBC numbers on Bowl.com. If they don't have one...then we need last season's last weeks scoresheet scanned and emailed or a ling to league secretary or a similar facsimile. But lets get the rules ironed out before we start having paperwork flying around.


i say give it 2 weeks for sign ups and u have 2 days after the sign up last day to get the avgs in the 3rd day i will post avgs with the bowlingboards user name

any objections ? this is the most fair in my mind
Once we get the rules set, 2 weeks for sign-up and getting averages validated. I will then post the starting averages. Each month end, I'll post an update in terms of results, standings, and new averages going into the next month.

I think we have enough of a format to propose the Tour and start getting sign-ups. The ONLY MAJOR ISSUE still outstanding is how to validate and ensure people are only bowling 3 games (not bowling 9 and taking the best series of the 3). Is there any objections to the requirement that you bowl against another BBer/participant in person IF one lives within 110 miles of you? We don't have a list of participants yet so I have no idea how it will look...but I'm concerned that without some way to validate that the person bowled ONLY 3 games...(not "best of")...we're just wasting our time. I mean, I can bowl 600 series if I get enough "tries".

I'll draw up the draft format/rules tonight and post it. In the meantime, any thoughts about how to address the issue (above); please post them...along with any other suggestions. Best case, maybe we can start a thread with the rules and start the 2-week window for registration...see how much interest is really out there. Thanks!

[noeymc]

how wont it fix the problem if you say your going to be there at said time print offs will tell you what time they finished there first game shouldnt be no more then 15-30 mins and if its 10 mins after the time you will obv no somthings not right

and i say no to the raised avg cuz if someones avg 220 there avg isnt going to go up a lot not fair to people with higher avgs

[Perrin]

Do the alleys you guys are talking about have X-bowling?
that could be used to monitor.

Or score consoles that allow you to sign in with facebook? in that case you could create a facebook group and post when/where you are bowlling and the result would be posted by the console.

[bowl1820]

90% of 220 max handicap = 30 pins

noeymc I believe is suggesting a limit or "cap" of 30 pins, not that the handicap is 30 pins. It should have read more like this:
90% of 220 with a max handicap of 30 pins


90% of 220 is fine...but you're calculating it wrong. It's (.9 * 220) = 198. 198 - Average = HC. Everyone getting 30 pins would defeat the purpose of a handicap.

Sorry but your calculating it wrong, that's not how you figure handicap.

It's the ("scratch base" - Average) * Percentage = Handicap

Example:
A 160 Average with a Handicap of 90% of 220

220 - 160 = 60
60 * .9 = 54 pins handicap

[mc_runner]

I really don't think cheating will be much of an issue on this... it's all for fun, and the time/effort going in to do that would be a little ridiculous. To get around any possible issues though, a "check in" type deal would probably do it. We could probably set up a private thing somewhere (facebook? some other site I'm not familiar with that I'm sure exists?) that has a check in time when we turn on a lane, and it'll coincide with the print out time. "mc_runner checked in at x alley at 2:48pm" - then you see the printout matching closely with the time.

in terms of the handicap, bowl1820 is right on how it's calculated. Not a real big fan of a max handicap though, since it could discourage some folks. People with a really high average come out a little bit ahead with the 90% of 220 system anyway.

[Aslan]

noeymc I believe is suggesting a limit or "cap" of 30 pins, not that the handicap is 30 pins. It should have read more like this:
90% of 220 with a max handicap of 30 pins
Well, thats just a different version of dumb. We can't cap it at 30. Then anyone with an average lower than 190 might as well stay home and play Wii bowling.




Sorry but your calculating it wrong, that's not how you figure handicap.

It's the ("scratch base" - Average) * Percentage = Handicap

Example:
A 160 Average with a Handicap of 90% of 220

220 - 160 = 60
60 * .9 = 54 pins handicap

I DID NOT KNOW THAT!! Looks like Bowl1820 taught me useful stuff ONCE AGAIN!! If he didn't hate me....I'd love him!!


I really don't think cheating will be much of an issue on this... it's all for fun, and the time/effort going in to do that would be a little ridiculous.

You'd be surprised. After some of the shennanigans I've seen by bowlers to win a trophy or a towel...or God forbid money. And after our own little witch hunt/truth hunt here on BB where certain members "may or may not have" told some "fish stories"...for nothing other than trying to impress people on the internet...yeah, people will cheat.

noeymc- The person with most games over average or most improved would be equivalent to the under .500 team that gets into the March Madness tournament and gets blown out by Kansas in Round 1. It's an automatic bid to get in the tourney...but you still get seeded based on points...and it would only be ONE spot. 13 of the 16 spots would be based on points. Think of it like the PBA where they have honorary berths into tournaments, like "Commisioner's exemption" or something like that. They still have to make it past 4 rounds to win.

[Aslan]

I wonder what the Vegas odds are on this thing actually happening? :confused:

I'll put the proposal out there....see what happens. But I got a feeling we're gonna get less than 7 people who want to do it. Then probably will lose 4 of them for one reason or another...couldn't make it, injury, time conflicts, etc... But, maybe I'm wrong. Too bad Iceman isn't around...he'd DEFINITELY be in!!

Oh well...tonight I'll get something up and we'll see what happens.

[mc_runner]

Where is Iceman, by the way?

[noeymc]

please explain to me how its fair if a 160 bow hits his avg every game that would mean roughly 210-215 a game if a 210 bowl only shoots a 198 he would only get i think 9 pins? putting him at 207 so the better bowler really didnt win but if the 160 avg bowler has 30 pins and shots a 185 190 160 + 90 he shoots a 625 and if the 210 avg shoots 190 185 190 + 27 shoots a 592 with handicap its who was really the better bowler? if theres no cap the better bowler prob wont win so 30 pins a game is more then enough and the 160 avg bowler has the advantage cuz if he shoots amazing that day and shots a 610 he now has a 700 how is that far for the guy who shots a 610 and hits his avg but cuz he only gets 12-15 pins he loses so lets not call people dumb when you are sadly mistaken and 99% of high avg bowlers hate handicap its a way to get more people to do tournaments and leagues now saying that 30 pins would be more then enough

also the checking in thing would not work for me as i still rock my flip phone and dont have internet on it

[zdawg]

if theres no cap the better bowler prob wont win

Well I think the whole problem here is philosophical, you're saying the "better bowler" should win - MOST of the folks on this board have been bowling for years or even decades, I haven't even been bowling 6 months yet :p the whole idea of the handicap is to even the playing field for those of us that are less experienced, or at least that's the way I see it.

Maybe the answer is to have divisions based on ranges of averages like they do in some tournaments? Or even better, a scratch division for the 99% of high average bowlers that hate handicap, and a handicap division for those of us that aren't high average bowlers yet.

[noeymc]

Well I think the whole problem here is philosophical, you're saying the "better bowler" should win - MOST of the folks on this board have been bowling for years or even decades, I haven't even been bowling 6 months yet :p the whole idea of the handicap is to even the playing field for those of us that are less experienced, or at least that's the way I see it.

Maybe the answer is to have divisions based on ranges of averages like they do in some tournaments? Or even better, a scratch division for the 99% of high average bowlers that hate handicap, and a handicap division for those of us that aren't high average bowlers yet.

i am not a 200 avg bowler and i hate handicap i am competitive i want to beat someone straight up means nothing if i beat u cuz i got free pins

if u avg 160 and get 30 pins u bowled a 190 how is that not ok

[Mudpuppy]

5 pages to read - way too much. Can't even cliff note that much.

Bottom line I think it is a great idea and handled right we could have participation anywhere - just need someone in charge in each location, i.e. California, Michigan, Connecticut, Ohio, etc. I could definitely get some participation here in Michigan and get some new members on this forum as well. My leagues are ending soon and I am not going to join any summer leagues so once a month on a Saturday would be awesome just to keep in shape for the fall season. But if you have 1 responsible person and scoresheets printed from the alley it shouldn't be an issue.

I think 90% from 220 is a given to give everyone a fair chance and not limit it to just high rollers.

The question is how to merge together all the events. i.e. I think having it an "open" tournament would be most beneficial - i.e. you don't have to show up EVERY Saturday. I think people should have to bowl 3 games to qualify and then those that qualify are seeded into the local bracket. Then you end up with a winner in the local bracket. Then maybe that winner bowls 3 more games and all the local winners go into the national bracket to determine the overall winner. So you could have a local winner and a national winner. If the thing took off then you could even morph into singles, scotch doubles, trios and team events.

I know some bowling alley owners around here and summer is slow so they would be interested in doing this. We just make it a requirement that to participate you have to register at bowlingboards.com and get a "competitor number" so that we can keep track of who is participating, etc.

Where is Iceman?

[circlecity]

Since there is handicap involved I don't think this was put together to find the best bowler but just to have a fair bowling match. If they wanted best bowler awards then it would be scratch.

[Aslan]

Since there is handicap involved I don't think this was put together to find the best bowler but just to have a fair bowling match. If they wanted best bowler awards then it would be scratch.

I must say, it DOES seem a bit hypocritical and suspicious that all these "bowling legends" on this site are so afraid of "handicap" and bowling in a different center. It goes back to the Sport condition discussion. So many bowlers...will never join a sport league...never compete in a USBC open...because bowlers have the most fragile egos of any group anywhere. God FORBID....your 217 average doesn't hold up in a tournament!!! Oh NO!! World = ended.

Or maybe....maybe our BBoard "legends" saw what happen to MWhite in the single greatest tournament EVER....the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational...where the "legend"....LOST. And maybe, just maybe....they are putting themselves in that position and thinking, "what if that was ME? What if I actually -gulp- 'lost'? I'd need to be on suicide watch and my family would have to lock up sharp objects!!"

Put up or BLEEP up (not sure if 'shut' gets me an infraction) boyz. Ya want to hide behind your "supposed greatness" and internet superiority...then join Bill F as the greatest internet bowler that ever lived. Meanwhile, us "real life bowlers" will actually show up, and put our legend (or lack there of) to the test. Handicap or not. Home center or not. And at the end of the day....no matter the outcome (although I will probably win)....we can at least say we put our money where our mouth is and weren't afraid.

I personally feel, and it's sort of like a 'pet peeve' of mine, that it's pathetic when a 200+ average bowler never leaves their home center, never joins tournaments, and never challenges themselves with a sport league. In high school, we called guys like that, "gym class All-Americans"...because they were amazing in gym class...but never joined a team.

[circlecity]

I must say, it DOES seem a bit hypocritical and suspicious that all these "bowling legends" on this site are so afraid of "handicap" and bowling in a different center. It goes back to the Sport condition discussion. So many bowlers...will never join a sport league...never compete in a USBC open...because bowlers have the most fragile egos of any group anywhere. God FORBID....your 217 average doesn't hold up in a tournament!!! Oh NO!! World = ended.

Or maybe....maybe our BBoard "legends" saw what happen to MWhite in the single greatest tournament EVER....the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational...where the "legend"....LOST. And maybe, just maybe....they are putting themselves in that position and thinking, "what if that was ME? What if I actually -gulp- 'lost'? I'd need to be on suicide watch and my family would have to lock up sharp objects!!"

Put up or BLEEP up (not sure if 'shut' gets me an infraction) boyz. Ya want to hide behind your "supposed greatness" and internet superiority...then join Bill F as the greatest internet bowler that ever lived. Meanwhile, us "real life bowlers" will actually show up, and put our legend (or lack there of) to the test. Handicap or not. Home center or not. And at the end of the day....no matter the outcome (although I will probably win)....we can at least say we put our money where our mouth is and weren't afraid.

I personally feel, and it's sort of like a 'pet peeve' of mine, that it's pathetic when a 200+ average bowler never leaves their home center, never joins tournaments, and never challenges themselves with a sport league. In high school, we called guys like that, "gym class All-Americans"...because they were amazing in gym class...but never joined a team.

Who is afraid of handicap? I'm just stating the facts. Beating somebody with handicap doesn't make you a better bowler. What it does it create a bowling match that makes the lesser bowlers have a chance to win. And that is fair in my opinion but to say your better because you beat somebody with the handicap is just nonsense.

If Belmonte gives me 30 pins a game and I beat him does it make me a better bowler? Of course not. So, I'm not sure what your raving about and why you would quote my message that is just stating the facts.

[circlecity]

One of my "pet peeves" are people who give bowling advice that can't keep the ball out of the gutter.

[noeymc]

i am not afraid of of loseing one bit nor do i care about handicap over all people get to much handicap and that is my problem to me scratch lets you see who is the better bowler that day when people are getting 40 50 60 pins you are pretty much giving that person a huge advantage by adding extra pressure to the better avg bowler who now has no room for error unlike someone whos getting a lot of pins is alsan afraid of bowling with little to no handicap cuz thats how it seems you would think the champion of the "greatest tournament ever" wouldnt be afraid to bowl with the best with little handicap just saying and i bowl in many different houses i try to find a new one every month so that way i challenge my self part of the reason i bowl bad is cuz i get board with the easy shot i love summer sport shots cuz i am given something hard every week not something where i can line up the same every week

[circlecity]

i am not afraid of of loseing one bit nor do i care about handicap over all people get to much handicap and that is my problem to me scratch lets you see who is the better bowler that day when people are getting 40 50 60 pins you are pretty much giving that person a huge advantage by adding extra pressure to the better avg bowler who now has no room for error unlike someone whos getting a lot of pins is alsan afraid of bowling with little to no handicap cuz thats how it seems you would think the champion of the "greatest tournament ever" wouldnt be afraid to bowl with the best with little handicap just saying and i bowl in many different houses i try to find a new one every month so that way i challenge my self part of the reason i bowl bad is cuz i get board with the easy shot i love summer sport shots cuz i am given something hard every week not something where i can line up the same every week

I'm guessing he is afraid to bowl scratch. I am bowling in a sport shot league this summer as well and look forward to the challenge.

[BowlingBoards.com]

For anyone wondering, bowlingball.com did offer a $25 Gift Certificate to sweeten the pot for the inaugural event of the tour. We want this to be a fun thing that everyone can be involved in and have a chance at competing. Having handicap is the only way to achieve that.

[Aslan]

For the handicap "haters"...I'll make the same point I made (and zdawg has made) to MWhite when he was whining about it.

You say it's not "fair"...or it gives an unfair advantage to lesser bowlers....YET....you bowlers who have been bowling competitively for 20-25 years seem to have no problem bowling scratch against bowlers that started bowling in 2013. Apparently that 24 year head start is not of consequence. And whenever a "handicap hater" doesn't want to bowl if there's handicap...it's because if you're a 212 average bowler..and you bowl scratch against a 150 average bowler...you could literally bowl the worst series you've bowled in the last 3 years and win. Is that "fair"? If Sean Rash faced off against me and I bowled a 540 series and he bowled a 557 series....do you think the bigger story is Sean Rash's victory? Or that a 165 average bowler almost beat Sean Rash? Handicap forces ALL players to bowl as good or better than they are capable of...it's that simple. If you have a high average and want to snatch up trophies by forcing beginning bowlers to bowl scratch...then why not let college basketball players graduate and go play against YMCA youth players? I mean, hey, you want the trophy...beat the best. Quit whining that you're only 9 and 5ft tall and they are 22 and 6'8"...suck it up kid! Asking beginning bowlers to bowl scratch is like Pete Weber showing up at your house league, taking all the award money and saying, "I'm the best, if anyone wants to win money just come see me on lane #3 and bowl me for it."

Now, personally, I prefer tournaments with "divisions". I think it's much more fair and it doesn't put added pressure on anyone, etc... The problem with doing that in the newly created "tour" is you need at least lets say 15-18 participants....bare bottom minimum. Any less than that and the divisions get too large and you end up penalizing players on the bottom end of the range. And since we currently have "3" people signed up....divisions are something to talk about for future contests.

Everyone here (virtually) bowls in handicap leagues every single week. This isn't some new thing we invented for this "Tour".

Like I said...you can join the tour and have some fun and put your money where your mouth is, or you can sit back, cross your arms, make a pouty face, and make excuses like "I'm too good to bowl handicap." And my response is...if you're THAT good...you shouldn't be afraid of beginners that "throw the ball in the gutter" no matter how much handicap they get.

[Mudpuppy]

Let's move past the handicap thing.

Season 1 inaugural season there is 90% from 220 handicap - if someone doesn't like it then don't participate - end of discussion. That is the rule.

Not much time - April 1 is next week. Let's get this think kicked off.

Let's get a running list of locations and bowlers and get moving forward - what is the minimum # we need to get this thing going?

[noeymc]

alsan 30 pins handicap should be more then enough for a 160 avg bowler just saying

aslan i have 4-6 years as a kid and this is my 2nd year since i started back after a 6-8 year break so in 2 years i have made my self a better bowler and yes sadly i have to bowl in handicap leagues during the fall my avg right now is 189 and 178 and i would rather bowl scratch all day every day like my buddy vince always says beat me straight up or it doesnt count and he is right how much help does a bowler need really

ps i have never attacked your game aslan just sayin

[zdawg]

alsan 30 pins handicap should be more then enough for a 160 avg bowler just saying

aslan i have 4-6 years as a kid and this is my 2nd year since i started back after a 6-8 year break so in 2 years i have made my self a better bowler and yes sadly i have to bowl in handicap leagues during the fall my avg right now is 189 and 178 and i would rather bowl scratch all day every day like my buddy vince always says beat me straight up or it doesnt count and he is right how much help does a bowler need really

ps i have never attacked your game aslan just sayin

I think its all good noah, and there is no point in discussing handicap anymore....good luck to you!