Re-visiting High loft...

[Aslan]

:(

I was gonna post this in my former "Coaching dilemmas" thread but it appears to have been "auto-locked".

So...QUICK (for Mudpuppy) backstory: Started off very straight up and down, hand to the ceiling, high loft (chucking as Mike would call it). Over time I've tried to go away from that...lay it down sooner, less loft, more spine tilt, etc.. Recently tried the DYDS method.
Okay...so anyways...

Practice 2 weeks ago: My former coach comes over and we chat. He's very much a proponent of the high left, straight up and down, etc.. aprroach. I ask him if he ever plays the outside (5-board to gutter). He says "no. I never mess with my target." We talk a bit and he states that he really just moves a little bit laterally to make adjustments.

Friday League (3/7): Bowled against coach's team and struggled early so he worked with me...wanted me to get rid of all the stuff I had been practicing (DYDS, etc...) and go back to the straight up and down, high loft approach. And I did, out of respect since he didn't have to help me but did...and I snapped a little out of my funk.

Practice last week: I noticed I was pulling my shot...hadn't done that in awhile...so I focused on getting my swing leg to the left...I focused on form. Also...releasing "towards" the pins rather than "towards the ceiling" to improve my accuracy. Kind've abandoned the DYDS a little bit.

Friday League (3/14): Pre-league I bowled 229 and 199...same focus on form and projecting towards my target/accuracy. In league I only bowled a 520 series...but, still...form, projecting, and a little higher loft.

So the dilemma I have now is....I WANT to be a better bowler. I WANT to transition to a more standard/modern release...a lower release...less loft, less muscling...ball doing mroe of the work....ability to play inside kind of approach/swing/release.

BUT...my high loft, speed dominant, playing up the 8-9 boards feels more natural and is actually more successful.

SO...I have two little birds on my shoulder...

Bird #2: "You need to transition to a more modern release...and listen to all the advice out there about earlier releases and should dropping, etc... Just because you don't immediately grasp the concepts and master it in 2-4 weeks...doesn't mean you give up and go back to bowling the 'wrong way'.

Bird #1: "You could be a 180 average bowler if you'd just stop trying all these 'new internet crazes' and go bowl like you already know how. Your coach lofts it...and he's a 201 average bowler and is bronze certified USBC. Yet for some reason, you resist what works."
Thoughts?? :confused:

Also, I'm putting together a really cool slow mottion release video package of all my releases in slow motion with comments...but unfortunately my laptop disk space is nearly full so I'm trying to clear up some disk space so I have room to operate.

[vdubtx]

Bird #1: Your coach lofts it...and he's a 201 average bowler and is bronze certified USBC. Yet for some reason, you resist what works."

To me, this is what sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Just because a coach uses it(somewhat successfully), does not mean it will work for everyone. Your coach(es) should not look to import what works in their own game into yours.

Lofting the ball is meant to kill ball reaction, which is essentially what you are doing by getting the ball so far down the lane that you do. Your ball will not have time to get into a good roll and react to the lane if you continue to loft. I do use loft, but only when the heads are dried up and my ball is over reacting and can't stay right side of head pin. Even then, I only loft max 2 feet.

Just my non USBC anything certified, 227 average bowler $.02

[josheaton16]

Agree Vdub, a little oft is ok, but 15 ft. is very rarely a good thing. You've said it yourself Aslan, it only works at your home center so well because of wood lanes, which are going to be gone soon.

[classygranny]

:(
Practice 2 weeks ago: My former coach comes over and we chat. He's very much a proponent of the high left, straight up and down, etc.. aprroach. I ask him if he ever plays the outside (5-board to gutter). He says "no. I never mess with my target." We talk a bit and he states that he really just moves a little bit laterally to make adjustments.

This is what stands out to me...what if the shot is at 3 board? What kind of coach can't play where the shot is?

[tccstudent]

This is what stands out to me...what if the shot is at 3 board? What kind of coach can't play where the shot is?

I know someone like that he never moves and all his adjustments are with speed or loft.
He used to be a left hander till a motorcycle accident disfigured is left arm so he switched to right handed many moons ago.
He has many many many honor scores listed has averaged over 230 shooting this was for 30 years

[josheaton16]

It's not that it can't be done, but I'm assuming all those scores are on a THS, which makes a difference. If someone wants to be able to bowl on tournament or sport conditions, they need more adjustments than just speed and loft.

[Aslan]

All good comments! Thanks!

Obviously I've been struggling with this for a while. I've tried to get away from it and I'm just wondering…at what point do you stop fighting something that seems to work better??

To add to the confusion…yes, totally agree…lofting/high speed…it makes for a very straight shot on medium-heavy oil. The ball doesn't have time to react to the lanes. Absolutely.

Yet…for "some reason"…I actually get more hook with the loft…and I "think" it's because of the release. I think when I try to release sooner/lower…I'm not getting enough revs out of my release…almost a flat release. Yet when I'm lofting it, I'm getting that hand flying up the side of the ball causing the revs.

Anyways…still a work in progress. Have a lesson with the ONE..the ONLY…Rob Mautner on Friday afternoon in VEGAS!! So maybe he can work miracles and teach this moderately old dog new tricks.

[Blacksox1]

Good luck in Vegas. Take notes and listen to Rob with an open mind. Sometimes we take a step back, to make the biggest improvements !

[J Anderson]

This is what stands out to me...what if the shot is at 3 board? What kind of coach can't play where the shot is?

What comes to mind is the old saw;"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Seriously, this guy does not sound like a bronze level coach. He might have been one at one time but it doesn't sound like he has kept up with the changes in the game, and bronze is not like level 1 where you certify once and you're good for life. Bronze requires a commitment to continuing education, much like the current rules for public school teachers.

[Mike White]

What comes to mind is the old saw;"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Seriously, this guy does not sound like a bronze level coach. He might have been one at one time but it doesn't sound like he has kept up with the changes in the game, and bronze is not like level 1 where you certify once and you're good for life. Bronze requires a commitment to continuing education, much like the current rules for public school teachers.

Maybe the problem isn't that he's not a bronze level coach, maybe the problem is being a bronze level coach doesn't mean they are all that well educated in coaching.

Much like the horse, and water thing.

You can lead the guy to a seminar, and administer a test, but can't make him agree with the methodology.

It's my opinion that USBC views the certifying of coaches as a short term revenue source.

[mc_runner]

While I agree that making adjustments is a crucial part to a game - I'm willing to play the devil's advocate role a little bit. Aslan didn't mention that the guy actually teaches that, only that Aslan asked him if HE moved around. I took it as that's what he personally does on his shot.

Now, if he coaches that, or honestly believes that his target can account for all shots - then I think you need to find a new coach. I'd also be really interested to find out how his average changes when your lanes switch from wood to synthetics, and if his philosophy stays the same.

[classygranny]

While I agree that making adjustments is a crucial part to a game - I'm willing to play the devil's advocate role a little bit. Aslan didn't mention that the guy actually teaches that, only that Aslan asked him if HE moved around. I took it as that's what he personally does on his shot.

Now, if he coaches that, or honestly believes that his target can account for all shots - then I think you need to find a new coach. I'd also be really interested to find out how his average changes when your lanes switch from wood to synthetics, and if his philosophy stays the same.

I might be willing to go along with on that...BUT, if my coach ever said to me "this is what I do" and left it at that, I would be looking for another coach anyway. What he "does" has absolutely nothing to do with my game. In the case of adjustments, the coach should merely give examples of adjustments, when they work, why they work, and suggest what might work best for the student's game.

While I sometimes am in a situation of bowling when a previous coach is around, I understand the "feeling" of needing to go back to what he teaches, but I learned the hard way, it doesn't pay off. Now, if he (or anyone else for that matter) tells me something contradictory to my current coach, I just say...I will think about that some time off the lanes, but now, I just want to concentrate on xyz" (posting shot, balance, foot speed, or something not related to their comment). Enough said.

[Aslan]

It's not just me. This particular coach teaches that particular style to numerous people. A guy came up to me during pre-league practice recently and say me throwing that way and mentioned that the coach "preaches that style" which again, leads me to believe that it's not just me...he's giving that advice to whomever seeks his advice.

What I'm not sure about is...it might be the product of the center/lanes. Like I said, wood lanes are different than synthetic. So if YOU're a pro in a wood lanes center...maybe the advice you give, balls you suggest, and patterns you drill are made in such a way to make bowlers successful in THAT house. Many of the bowlers will never leave that house. So his thought process "might" be that he teaches a method that will make them most successful THERE...knowing they will bowl primarily THERE. I don't know, just spitballing.

Like I said...most of the bowlers in the league are more speed dominant and use far more symmetric balls, straighter balls. So getting that reaction to the lane...not as important. Just like my recent DOMINANCE in the 1st Annual etc...Invitational. I threw in a way...with the right equipment....that the lane oil conditions that stumped MWhite and ZDawg didn't affect me as much.

As to him targeting 1 target...I don't know what thats all about quite frankly. I mean, it's pretty common knowledge in bowling that to get to the next level you need to be able to play 3 areas, 3 speeds, 3 balls, etc.. And I found that just moving laterally and never adjusting your target...that won't work. I get too far left and that ball goes straight into the gutter. A lot of times...when I make a move...I'm doing it to change my "angle" into the pocket...and I think that requires a target change along WITH a lateral movement.

The other possibility is...some coaches are just trying to make low level bowlers a little better. And this guy, I think he looks at it like too much information is going to be detrimental. Better to just focus on some simple things...same target...spare shooting...striaght shoulders...etc... rather than take a lower level bowler and try to get them to grasp modern releases and dropping your shoulder, etc... And thats not too unheard of...Mike and others have mentioned to me that perhaps I should develop my game a bit before trying the DYDS things. And even Rob (the lover of modern releases) has stated that getting a newer bowler and trying to make them adopt a modern release isn't always the way he approaches it.