Does Walter Ray Williams have a "modern release"?

[Aslan]

My favorite bowler is Walter Ray. I like his demeanor, I like his accuracy and skill, he has more accolades than any other bowler alive, and he's similar to me in height. He's like Mika except with more titles and a less dramatic approach.

Anyways, as was watching him in this video: http://youtu.be/cVbClQwDASM

I noticed that he doesn't seem to stay behind the ball. He doesn't seem to start his hand on the inside quadrant. At times, almost a suitcase release. And I compare his approach/release to mine, and it seems like other than a less dramatic 2nd step, more forward spine tilt, and setting the ball down earlier (less loft)…I see a lot of similarities.

So is everyone else seeing what I'm seeing? Or do you see something in his release that I'm just missing?

[noeymc]

he prob changed up his release for the shot at hand yes people can do that shocking i knoww and thats a god release hes behind the ball

[Geneo2u]

Walter's the man. Wonder if pitching horseshoes has a lot of the same techniques.

[RobLV1]

Bowlers who utilize a "modern release," keep their hand on the inside of the ball and use the unloading and loading of the wrist to generate revolutions. The modern release generates more revolutions and more turn. Good bowlers, and Walter Ray is undoubtedly the best bowler that the world has seen to date, whether they utilize a modern release or not, have always stayed behind the ball. This is what allows him to "roll" the ball to knock down the maximum number of pins. Combine his ability to roll the ball consistently with his amazing accuracy, and you have more PBA titles than anyone else on the planet.

[swingset]

He's certainly not behind the ball in that video...he's coming around the side quite a bit at release. He's always played that "side" of the ball, not nearly as behind it as a lot of the PBA players with a modern swing.

I kind of view his release as a "hybrid" that's between the old and new. In this video you can see he's behind it a bit more, but his fingers are just at or above the equator....another sign of that "in between" the old and new.

http://youtu.be/oAQj2H1u25U

Walter Ray stands as a testament to a freaky-god-given ability to play this sport to it's highest level. His approach is fundamentally flawed (especially at the line), yet he can deliver awe-inspiring consistency and accuracy, and has the perfect "head game" to be a champion.

Like Mika, he's a guy I'd never tell a single soul to emulate, yet you can't argue with their results.

[noeymc]

i disagree swingset he is beind the ball it comes off his palm in in the slight on the side but also depends on what shot cuz ive seen more then one release theres one where he bowls like the every day joe then hes got ther ok thats a solid let go and hes almost got a pro let go

also my ideal Norm Duke is better

[RobLV1]

If you pause the video from Thailand, you'll see that his hand is behind the ball until after his thumb exits. Many bowlers who think that they are behind the ball are actually turning early in making an effort to hook the ball. Modern balls are much better at hooking themselves without any help at all from the bowler. If you can learn to let the ball do what it was designed to do, you'll find that you can hook a ball much more than you ever did when you were trying to help it.

[noeymc]

If you pause the video from Thailand, you'll see that his hand is behind the ball until after his thumb exits. Many bowlers who think that they are behind the ball are actually turning early in making an effort to hook the ball. Modern balls are much better at hooking themselves without any help at all from the bowler. If you can learn to let the ball do what it was designed to do, you'll find that you can hook a ball much more than you ever did when you were trying to help it.

i agree 100% i was told when i was little to let the ball do the work and that was from a pba bowler who has bowled with walter he said the man is a good guy he is just socially awkward lol like he said the man trys to be funny its just not him hahahaha

[Aslan]

It's an interesting discussion. But I agree with Swingset...from the video, I can't see his hand behind the ball. Not like the modern release video (I can't find the link) where it shows all the modern bowlers like Rhino and Chris Barnes, etc..

I don't know. I just found it interesting when I came across this video, which I believe is "fairly" recent, that his release didn't seem to "jive" with a "modern" or even "transitional" release.

I'll try to ask him on his website (if it's still in existence).

P.S. I can't find the link to ask him a question. I don't think he still does it since the newest answered questions are from 2007. Anyone have his private number/email?? :rolleyes:

[RobLV1]

No, he doesn't have a "modern release" like Chris Barnes or Rhino Page (God how I wish that we, the bowling writers had never even mentioned modern or transitional styles). He does, however, stay behind the ball until his thumb exits. One of the things that define coaching ability is that we can see some things that the untrained eye can't. I know it's tough, but if you can't see it, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

[Aslan]

I'll take your word for it.

And why do you regret using those phrases?? I think you've done a good job at at the LEAST getting people to explore the value of starting your had on the inside quadrant (aka modern release-esque).

As you know from having seen me bowl in person, I really struggle with the modern release and keeping my hand behind the ball. I find that when I focus on keeping my hand behind the ball...I roll a straight end over end type ball that some people roll purposely when they want a modern ball to go straight.

Now, it's never quite simple in this seemingly simple game we've chosen.
1) The ball also goes straight because it's going 20ft down the lane before landing...
2) The ball is also going straight because at 21-22mph...I'm not giving it a chance to move...
3) Sometimes when I "stay behind the ball" I am breaking my wrist (opposite of cupping it) which is defeating the purpose...
4) Etc....(because I'm sure I'm missing at least one other stupid thing I do that isn't right)

And thats also why in the OP I mentioned that while I think his and my swings are very similar...he is doing at LEAST 3 very important things that make his WAAAY better:
1) He doesn't have my weird 2nd crossover-sideways step...much more straightforward...and I have to think that helps his timing be much, much, much better than mine. And, less moving parts, right?
2) He has more forward spine tilt...almost effortless forward spine tilt. I started out as a straight up and down bowler posting to the ceiling. I have tried to break that habit...but it's not effortless for me the way it appears to be for WRW. Which is another reason why I struggle with higher loft...because I'm trying to stand straight up as I follow through which is "lifting" the ball (unless I can set it down sooner in the swing).
3) He sets that ball down midway between the foul line and dots...and it sets down perfectly like it's on a track. Not to mention, in that video he is playing the 1-2 boards...which...MAD PROPS!! I love playing the outside like the guys did back in the late 80s and early 90s...but I don't have WRW accuracy so if I get outside the 4-board...my ball is going to gutter at least 1-3 times...and I'm going to be so scared of that gutter...so I'm gonna pull at least a few shots in that game.

But, I like it. I like seeing that (WRWs) more than say a Rhino Page...because I can see myself emulating a WRW type form more so than a Rhino Page. Obviously, I'm not close yet. I have lots of stuff to work on. But I think there's a lot of us strokers out there in the bowling universe that still bring our hand up the side of the ball....and I guess seeing a WRW keeps us from getting discouraged and abandoning our game for thumbless or 2-handed.

[J Anderson]

But, I like it. I like seeing that (WRWs) more than say a Rhino Page...because I can see myself emulating a WRW type form more so than a Rhino Page. Obviously, I'm not close yet. I have lots of stuff to work on. But I think there's a lot of us strokers out there in the bowling universe that still bring our hand up the side of the ball....and I guess seeing a WRW keeps us from getting discouraged and abandoning our game for thumbless or 2-handed.

A sure sign of the apocalypse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbU2UzyD5yM

[swingset]

If you pause the video from Thailand, you'll see that his hand is behind the ball until after his thumb exits. Many bowlers who think that they are behind the ball are actually turning early in making an effort to hook the ball. Modern balls are much better at hooking themselves without any help at all from the bowler. If you can learn to let the ball do what it was designed to do, you'll find that you can hook a ball much more than you ever did when you were trying to help it.

Well, I don't have a magical coaches eye, but I do have a pause button and the ability to screen capture.

http://www.localnumber69.com/temp/WRW_shot.jpg

Thumb is just starting to exit the ball here, he's above the equator and already coming around the side of the ball.

Not behind in any way, shape, or form.

But feel free to tell me what I'm not seeing.

[RobLV1]

If this was a house bowler, his fingers would be 2" up and 1 1/2" to the right. Believe me, I've seen it.

[Aslan]

A sure sign of the apocalypse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbU2UzyD5yM

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Granted, he is treating it like a joke…which is what 2-handed bowling is.

Hey…how did you trick me into that debate!!? No fair using my bowling idol against me!!

[noeymc]

If this was a house bowler, his fingers would be 2" up and 1 1/2" to the right. Believe me, I've seen it.

maybe a 160 avg bowler but once you have a 180 -220 avg your getting behind the ball more and more

[RobLV1]

At one point I took a photograph of the hand position of a 220 average bowler. I'll try to locate it and post it. 180-220 average bowlers are not necessarily more behind the ball, if they bowl on a THS.

[Aslan]

At one point I took a photograph of the hand position of a 220 average bowler. I'll try to locate it and post it. 180-220 average bowlers are not necessarily more behind the ball, if they bowl on a THS.

I hope you didn't take a picture of my hand position...we don't need to scare the children.

[Hammer]

I give up. Does he?

[Hammer]

Who cares if he has a modern release or doesn't. He bowls in a way that works for him. Other pro bowlers use the modern technique and that works for them. For an example let's take Chris Barnes. From what I can see he has become a pretty good bowler himself and he doesn't bowl like Walter Ray. Some of you guys get so bent out of shape because one person sees a video of someone one way and you see something else. Somehow it ends up in an argument. I got an idea. Bowl how you want to bowl. Stay behind the ball when you reach the
release area or have your hand on the side of the ball like a suitcase release. Wer all bowl different. We might not bowl with a pro technique
but we do the best we can.

Some here don't want to learn the correct way to bowl and say they have a better way then what some coaches show. I notice some folks here give sarcastic replies to someone elses reply. We all have different opinions of what exactly we see in the same video viewed by other folks. If you see something else in a video then someone else and you think that you are right then good for you. That doesn't make the other person wrong. So if you think you are right and someone else is wrong then do it your way and good luck. So I think Walter Ray is a
great bowler doing it his way. So ignore everyone elses advice on how to bowl and go with the idea that you know better then anyone else.
By the way. I am trying to get the modern way of bowling down pat. I hope Walter Ray won't get mad at me and tell me to bowl his way.

[swingset]

Who cares if he has a modern release or doesn't. He bowls in a way that works for him. Other pro bowlers use the modern technique and that works for them. For an example let's take Chris Barnes. From what I can see he has become a pretty good bowler himself and he doesn't bowl like Walter Ray. Some of you guys get so bent out of shape because one person sees a video of someone one way and you see something else. Somehow it ends up in an argument. I got an idea. Bowl how you want to bowl. Stay behind the ball when you reach the
release area or have your hand on the side of the ball like a suitcase release. Wer all bowl different. We might not bowl with a pro technique
but we do the best we can.

Some here don't want to learn the correct way to bowl and say they have a better way then what some coaches show. I notice some folks here give sarcastic replies to someone elses reply. We all have different opinions of what exactly we see in the same video viewed by other folks. If you see something else in a video then someone else and you think that you are right then good for you. That doesn't make the other person wrong. So if you think you are right and someone else is wrong then do it your way and good luck. So I think Walter Ray is a
great bowler doing it his way. So ignore everyone elses advice on how to bowl and go with the idea that you know better then anyone else.
By the way. I am trying to get the modern way of bowling down pat. I hope Walter Ray won't get mad at me and tell me to bowl his way.

This isn't about telling Walter Ray he's wrong, no one has suggested his bowling doesn't work for him or that we should all strive for the modern release.

Words have meanings.

This thread had a purpose, and if you choose to engage it at face value it was about a question. A very specific question.

If we're wondering if WRW is "behind the ball" what does that mean? If his hand is on the side and top of the ball at release, is it both right and wrong to say he's "behind" it? Not to me. I've never met a coach (until this thread) who would argue being above the equator and at 45 degrees would qualify as "behind".

Why should I respect someone's opinion who looks at England and says it's on the southern hemisphere? Is it polite and civil to just say "Ok, you win, you speak authoritatively and have preceded your opinion with reasons why your eyes work better than mine so therefore all you say is right..."??

It might be, but this is a discussion forum not a prim & proper social circle and I'm not interested in Victorian manners. If you speak authoritatively on a subject, I'd suggest you be right....and it's even more imperative that you don't tell me that a man with his hand on top of a ball is putting it behind it. I'm not blind, and neither are any of you.

So if you want to swallow that kind of nonsense out of respect, then by all means knock yourself out. I have very little patience for that kind of hubris and condescension.

Rob is knowledgeable on many subjects to do with bowling, but he's whiffing thin air on this one.

[RobLV1]

It's certainly obvious that you are not interested in Victorian manners. We had a difference of opinion, and I gave mine based on the fact that I have observed and analyzed thousands of releases over the years. Does that make my opinion right? Of course not, but it's still my opinion, and the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am "whiffing thin air on this one," it just means that you disagree with me.

[Hammer]

We need to get Walter Ray here himself to tell us what he did in the video. Does he have a FACEBOOK or TWITTER account? Maybe we can get an email address. Maybe I will take a look at this video and see what is really happening.

[Hammer]

It's certainly obvious that you are not interested in Victorian manners. We had a difference of opinion, and I gave mine based on the fact that I have observed and analyzed thousands of releases over the years. Does that make my opinion right? Of course not, but it's still my opinion, and the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am "whiffing thin air on this one," it just means that you disagree with me.

I am with you on this one Rob. I looked at that video posted by swingset and I stopped the action as he comes to the beginning of the release area and he is behind the ball. As he goes through the release area his hand does turn some just like guys with the modern swing which is right for a release area ending. Depending on the lane conditions a pro will stay
behind the ball to cut down on hook. So depending on the lane the turning of the hand can go from zero degrees no turn to
90 degrees which is the suitcase turn. I think the release that he is using is because he is playing between the one and five board. If he was playing deep from the left gutter and throwing right he would probably have to stay more to the inside of the ball at the beginning of the release. Does he ever play deep though? Maybe he is just a down and in guy no matter what.

[Aslan]

Settle down boyz.

Also: I'm acting moderator since Bowl1820 is taking a break.

The above sentence is completely false and I give myself one infraction for being a liar....and another infraction for calling myself a liar.

Hammer: I pointed it out because I AM struggling with my release and I tend to release the ball kinda like WRW does in terms of form. But...as I was quick to point out....WRW is absolutely exceptional at so many aspects of his game...that even if I copied him...it doesn't make me WRW. The can hit a piece of lint at 10ft 4 out of 5 times.

Swingset: I LOVE Swingset...because, like me, he's fearless and willing to challenge even the "elite" on the website if he feels they are mistaken. That type of thing may not be tolerated on "other" bowling sites (that shall not be named) but I appreciate it. It makes for a better end product and a better understanding when we can all question each other without being told, "Shut it...he's the expert, you're just a schlub...so be more gracious." I love Rob...I read all of his stuff online, I've learned SO much from it and his lesson he gave me in Vegas has so far really helped my game. But I don't think blindly blowing smoke up his (insert word that will get me an infraction) does him or anyone else any good. Guys like me and Swingset and even an occasional MWhite...if we do nothing else...we remind Rob of some areas where his beliefs "might" be challenged and that allows him to look at those areas, give them a second glance, and decide if maybe he needs a little more work on them or maybe just explain them differently. It's not an attack on him personally...it's not even a disagreement with his beliefs/methods...it's just conversation and discussion.

Rob: Obviously theres something to the modern release. I just watched a really cool video on youtube showing everyone from Mika to Mike Fagan and to see them throw, behind the ball, ring finger, etc...as effortlessly and repeatably and successfully....it really made me think about continuing to develop that type of release. But then I watch some of my old videos (go to the "videos for noeymc" thread for a new slow motion complilation) and I see the ball head down the lane....with what looks like a great release (in terms of rotation and movement)...at 15-21mph....the pins exploding...and I think..."am I giving up on something special to try and be somebody I'm not?"

But it all comes down to the orignal question. If that guy in THAT video...WASNT WRW....and was "Tom D. Williams" from Chilton, Wisconsin...a 147 average bowler who's claim to fame is that he once killed a mouse with a bowling ball during league play when it ran across the lane at exaclty the wrong time....would we "praise" his approach/release?? Cuz I look at it and I think, "wow. Hand doesn't appear to stay behind the ball, he seems off balanced, his balance leg doesn't stay on the lane, etc... This guy is a MESS!" But he's not a mess....he's not Tom D. Williams....he's best or 2nd best bowler that ever lived (3rd if you're Chris Barnes eliteist, or 3rd/4th if you're a Belmonte lover).

It's interesting...thats all. It's not meant to start a fight. It's just an interesting release in this modern era. And to Rob's credit...and as Bowl1820 has mentioned once or twice before....perhaps what allows that release to be effective for WRW....is WRW has a level of accuracy/experience that allows him to do things the rest of us can't or shouldn't. As much as I want to be WRW...I currently am trying to have a more "modern" release...because I'm not WRW. Maybe I change my mind down the road and decide the "modern release" is for the birds and develop my own "pro style"...but until then...like I told Rob...I'm a "sponge" (not a female contraceptive...although, well, nvm)...I take in tidbits and info and suggestions and teachings and preachings and observations....and I try everything! A little of this, a little of that...as long as I keep getting better....thats all that counts.

Next Up? Rob's ring finger concept....and Shockley's "underhand football" concept. Now that I got my approach and timing and loft and speed and accuracy improved...the release needs some attention. I know Rob preaches that the ball does the work by itself....but I've watched the ball do the work by itself...and my bowling balls are lazy ****s! If I don't have a good release...they don't do a DANG thing!! Except sail into the 3-pin and leave a wonderful 1-2-4-10. Friggin balls. :mad:

[Hammer]

Well, I don't have a magical coaches eye, but I do have a pause button and the ability to screen capture.

http://www.localnumber69.com/temp/WRW_shot.jpg

Thumb is just starting to exit the ball here, he's above the equator and already coming around the side of the ball.

Not behind in any way, shape, or form.

But feel free to tell me what I'm not seeing.

Where do you find this video of WRW? I saw your other video you posted of WRW and watched that. At the top of his backswing is he behind the ball or slightly on the side of it as in this picture? Playing as close to the gutter as he is if he stayed to the inside of the ball to the beginning of the release area he would probably have his ball rolling nicely down the gutter. That would be a good shot for getting dead wood out of the end of the gutter.

[Hammer]

I found the Thailand video that you show in one of your replies. When you reach the one minute mark of the video they show him throwing the ball from a different angle that swingset shows in his reply. After doing stop action at the beginning of the release area to me it looks like he is behind the ball. After that point his hand does turn and his fingers are above the equator of the ball because his thumb is coming out
and the ball is coming off of his hand at the end of the release area. So swingset is right with the pic he shows in his reply. But before Walter
Ray reaches that spot he is like every other pro behind the ball as he is entering the release area.

The action in the release area happens so fast that you go from behind the ball to the hand turned slightly and the fingers above the equator
as the thumb is coming out because the ball is being let go and the fingers do go from below the equator to above the equator. So all of those actions do happen as you cycle through the release area. So as I said swingset is right as far as the photo he shows from the Thailand video.

Link for Thailand video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAQj2H1u25U

[swingset]

As I said earlier in the thread. WRW is certainly capable of putting his hand behind the ball (at release, which is the only place it matters), but he is not putting it there in the videos we displayed. By the time his thumb is starting to come out of the ball, he's well up and to the side.

If you want to argue your way into sorta, kinda, if you turn your head just right, and for a millisecond....then knock yourselves out. But, I'd bet my life's savings if WRW wasn't who he was, and showed up at Slowinski's place for a lesson, he'd not be saying "Great job, Walter, you're behind the ball just like I want you to be".

I think if he was an unknown and showed his video online for criticism, we'd say the same thing, and we'd say "sure coming up hard at the line, and not posting your shot very well either".

And, we'd all be right. Except he's WRW and has the titles to prove you can get the job done without conforming to a rote set of mechanics.

[sprocket]

What has to be agreed upon is a standard point in the release to reference from. If we can pick any point in the swing, then Pete Weber's hand is completely on the inside of the ball and his palm faces the right wall. This is true at the top of his back swing. Somewhere coming down he gets to straight behind the ball and as his thumb exits he is very much on the side of the ball. I accept "as the thumb exits" as a reasonable standard position to reference from (unless, like myself, the thumb isn't in the ball ever).

So from my point of view Walter Ray is not behind the ball at the release point.

[Aslan]

I think if he was an unknown and showed his video online for criticism, we'd say the same thing, and we'd say "sure coming up hard at the line, and not posting your shot very well either".

And, we'd all be right. Except he's WRW and has the titles to prove you can get the job done without conforming to a rote set of mechanics.

Good point. Thats something that frustrates me about bowling is, if you're good...and you have a high average....and have bowled in a couple USBC events (or higher)...no matter how "wrong" (and I'm using that term loosely) you are....you can say you're right. And to some degree....thats how it "should" be. If you can win...who cares if you throw it underhand or 2-handed or 6mph?? If Earl Anthony was alive...and he still threw super old school....who the **** has the nerve to tell him he should do it differently?? On the other side of the coin....shouldn't bowlers kinda learn a "right" way?? And just because a guy does it well....doesn't mean he does it right??

And THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER. I can see BOTH sides of that arguement.

And it hits home with me personally because my first coach taught me a high speed/loft approach. Most consensus bowlers (on this site and elsewhere) agree that he's not teaching the "right" way. But he would argue that he's bronze certified USBC, has been bowling competitively for 25+ years, and carries a 200+ average...so why listen to a 160-180 average bowler on the internet??

So again...interesting discussion...meant to be interesting/thought provoking; but no right or wrong answer per se.

[Hammer]

After all of these replies it only goes to show you that there are different ways to bowl and to still be successful at it. Especially for us non-pro
folks. We can have good games with a half-butt release and falling off of our shot because most of us owl on a THS pattern which can be forgiving on our techniques. So for us the rule to go by is try different techniques and pick what works best for you. What works good for one person might not work worth a darn for another person.

Talk about different techniques like Earl Anthony, Mark Roth, Walter Ray Williams, Norm Duke etc. Those guys bowled pretty good didn't they? So if you can make something you do work then you are on your way. Your body will let you know what you can and can't do.

[J Anderson]

I think the release that he is using is because he is playing between the one and five board. If he was playing deep from the left gutter and throwing right he would probably have to stay more to the inside of the ball at the beginning of the release. Does he ever play deep though? Maybe he is just a down and in guy no matter what.

Walter Ray, at least in his prime, was one of the most versatile bowlers as far as being able to play where ever he needed to. A few years ago I read an article where someone measured a number of pros to see how much they could vary their axis rotation, Walter Ray had the largest range of those tested and PDW the smallest. While "down and in" is definitely his A game and is what we most often see him playing, You don't win that many titles being a one dimensional player.

[bowl1820]

I think the release that he is using is because he is playing between the one and five board.

I agree with this, in both videos he's playing the far right side which he plays there a lot. So he's had to make a adjustment in his release to play that area. He's still behind just not has much as he could be, if he need too.


Here's a comment by WRW take it for what you will:
"I tend to come up behind the ball more than most of the pros and I also don't get as many revs. I can get around the ball a bit, but again not like a lot of these guys. But I am able to play many different shots and parts of the lanes which is a big plus. "


One thing WRW has said many times also is Don't use him as a example on how to bowl.

[Aslan]

One thing WRW has said many times also is Don't use him as a example on how to bowl.

Then he should stop winning so many titles so people will think his style isn't worth emulating.