The many varying opinions on "spine tilt"…ughhh!!

[Aslan]

Okay, lets talk spine tilt.

Backstory:
When I first started bowling more seriously in August…one of the FIRST things the bronze level pro said was, "don't bend over at the foul line. Stand straight up and extend your had to the ceiling."

Okay. So I DID that. However, one byproduct of that is lift and loft. I'm 6ft tall. If I release as I raise up to stand straight…the ball releases at about my thigh level…which propels it a good 12-15ft before landing. See earlier videos for what I mean. I was also told, I had MORE than enough speed…and needed to move up in front of the dots (front dots) in my approach so I'd stop "running" towards the foul line.

Now…lets fast forward to my attempt at the DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder) method championed and endorsed by Joe Slowinski. Joe Slowinski is a Gold level USBC coach and former PBA member. As to how his method compares to the original points:
1) Stand up straight: NO! Actually, his method teaches a LATERAL spine tilt with the ball releasing very low and the shoulders tilted in that direction.
2) Loft is okay: No. It's not a major problem…but not really in line with DYDS.
3) Shorter Approach/Lower Speed: No. DYDS uses a 5-step rather than 4-step approach, so it's a bit longer…but not necessarily "faster".

Now…lets fast forward a bit to Rob Mautner's advice during the lesson I had with him. Rob is our local bowling expert here on this site and a Silver level instructor. On the original points:
1) Stand straight up, hand to the ceiling: No. Don't do that. Instead, FORWARD spine tilt…hand releasing towards the pins.
2) Loft is Okay: NO! Loft is one of the glaring problems and why the ball won't react well on slicker lanes…we need to set it down earlier!
3) Shorter Approach/Lower Speed: Absolutely! You have plenty of speed…shorten that approach and slow down the pace!

Now…lets fast forward to today's clinic…with USBC Hall of Famer and former PBA bowler John Gaines. On the original points:
1) Stand straight up, hand to the ceiling: Yes! Forward spine tilt is only "okay" if you have a massive sliding knee bend. Since my knee bend isn't very significant, I should not be "leaning" forward.
2) Loft is Okay: Not necessarily. While you should be straight without forward spine tilt…your knee needs more bend so you can release the ball lower. John Gaines is a tall, tall man…probably 6'5" if I'm guessing…and he tends to release the ball with a bit of a lateral spine tilt at the shin level.
3)Shorter Approach/Lower Speed: No. Lengthen the approach by about a foot and a half so you're (being taller) not crowded at the foul line…but don't necessarily increase speed…maybe just longer steps.

So, in terms of:
Standing Straighter/Less Spine Tilt?
John Gaines and the Bronze certified coach vote "Yes", but the Gold and Silver level coaches vote "No" in favor of either a forward or lateral spine tilt.

Loft is Good of Bad?:
Well, the Bronze coach votes "Good" and the Silver coach votes "Bad"…Gaines and the Gold level coach would both probably agree with "Bad" but would take it out of the game differently.

Shorter Approach/Speed or Longer Approach/Speed?
While all 4 would see me bowl in the 21-23mph range and agree thats more than enough speed…the question is in terms of approach length. The bronze and silver level coaches, would favor a shorter, slower, 4-step approach. The gold level coach would favor a 5-step (but only because it fits the method), and Gaines would lengthen the approach.

So? Who is right? Who is wrong? Are they all right? Are they all wrong?

My initial "take":

1) Standing straighter.
I think between Gaines, the bronze level coach, and PBA HOFer Barry Asher…the consensus is not to lean forward at the foul line. However…this presents a problem for me because I think it assumes the bowler can achieve a 90-degree bend in their knee. My left knee isn't "bad"…but it's bad enough I wear a brace when I practice and it's sore after I bowl. If I MUST bend that knee to achieve a straight up and down body position WITHOUT a high loft…I may be physically limited from that ability.

2) High loft/No loft.
Only the bronze level coach likes "loft"…and thats largely because it's a wood lane house and lofting the ball clears the heads and the lanes affect it less. The other 3 agree on less loft and are most likely correct. There are some successful bowlers…one of the guys on bowling ball.com videos throws a higher loft…that loft it…but not many.

3) Approach Length and Speed.
The one thing they all agree on is "LESS" speed. While the approach recommendations differ…the ultimate goal is to slow things down a bit from the 21-23mph range so the ball can react with the lanes.

So…the clinic was disappointing. It was cool working with John Gaines…that was the first time I had met him…really smart guy with good advice and he spent quite a bit of time with me. But I can't see "straightening" my body and bending that slide knee any more than it is already. Not without needing extensive knee surgery at some point. Maybe if I lost significant weight. And the problem with standing straighter…besides loft….is it reduces accuracy. The point of setting it down smoothly and lower and sooner…is I can control it much better and hit my target better. WRW is really the only guy that can toss it down the lane a bit more and still hit his mark and he's a freak of nature.

As to approach length…gonna stick with the 4-step approach in front of the dots. It does "crowd" me sometimes…but when I tried to lengthen it…I was very early in my timing and I was trying to compensate by running…and the speed creeped back up.

So…lots of "yap pity yap" and Mudpuppy will probably have cliff notes…but it's just furthering of the point made in my other thread…that one big frustration for newer bowlers is not having a consistent approach from the various coaches. And thats not "bad"…it's not that any of the coaches were "bad coaches"…they just all had different things to teach and slightly different opinions.

[zdawg]

The one thing I can tell you that I learned from Mark Baker was forward spine tilt, and I wouldn't describe it as "bending forward at the line" since you should have your tilt locked in well before you get to the line. Basically for me I tilt forward by my third step (5 step approach) and MAINTAIN that exact spine tilt throughout the rest of the approach and release - meaning no standing up straightening out my legs at the end and/or popping up like a jack-in-the box at the foul line.

Fortunately the day he taught me this he had just done a lesson with Bill O'Neill and had some video handy (we have similar physical builds) and he showed me side video of both of us side by side and frame by frame and it suddenly clicked (I'd like to think he used video of me to teach Bill in his next lesson but I'm not that delusional). One thing he noted that was different between us was that my hips and shoulders and tilt did not stay level throughout the approach and there was constant movement, in Bill's case once that was "locked" in it stayed "locked" in until the ball was well down the lane - he mentioned something about the less moving parts the better. Also Bill had much more tilt than I did.

Not sure if this helps at all, and I'm sure somebody like Rob can come along and explain it much better than me - I can just say having the visual made all the difference in the world to me.

PS Since I only see Mark for a lesson every once in a blue moon I did once try a local coach who was definitely old school but was available and a mere fraction of the price of a lesson with Mark Baker - he taught a more traditional style and most of what he "taught" me was completely contradictory to what Mark (and Rob) teach

[RobLV1]

Old school: Apply lift to get the ball to hook. Keep the spine straight to encourage lift, and follow through to the ceiling.

New school: Project the ball down the lane because the damn things are so strong that if you don't project them down the lane, they start to hook at the arrows. Don't lift, because that encourages the ball to hook hook early and hit like a toasted marshmallow.

It all depends on what you want to be. If you want to be a house bowler, then keep your spine straight, and follow through to the ceiling to help you to hit up on the ball to help it to hook, and play the oil line in case you miss right so that it will come back, but make sure you use the least aggressive ball that money can buy, not only because it's cheaper, but because you'll never have to learn to move. If you want to be a modern bowler, then learn to project the ball and release it toward the pins, not the ceiling, unless of course your bowling center has pins on the ceiling, and then do whatever it is that you want to do.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting pretty tired of this!

[Aslan]

(I'd like to think he used video of me to teach Bill in his next lesson
HA! Well played.


Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting pretty tired of this!

1) Ya can't really call it a "rant" when it's about 1/5th the length of my original post.
2) If you think YOU're tired of it...put yourself in the student's shoes. Imagine if you're going to school to be a chemist and every professor had a different periodic table. Wouldn't that get frustrating?
3) Instructors MUST learn to not get "offended" when their students question their methods. I've seen somewhere around "7" different high level bowlers to get their input. Of those 7, I don't think there's ONE that wouldn't walk out of the room shaking his head if I mentioned that another instructor showed me a different approach.

If the ego of an instructor is THAT fragile...teaching is not really going to be a long term career. I understand that a student is there to learn...I think Karate Kid (the orignial good version) taught us "No Questions Asked" concerning wax on and wax off...and even if I have "reservations" during an instruction session...i don't "argue" with them. That defeats the purpose as far as I'm concerned. BUT....

...I have to admit Saturday's clinic really, really discouraged me. In the past week...I had the best week of bowling of my life.
1) The week before I won $31 in the league poker hand for Game 1.
2) I rebounded from a bad first month of the VBT to have a decent 2nd month.
3) I defeated MWhite in the ASLAN vs. MWHITE Wood Lane Challenge...scratch.
4) I bowled a 557 in leagues, my highest total in the league thus far.
5) I had 2 clean games in one week...and my spare shooting has increased from 30%-over 50% (60% to over 80% for single pins).

Yet during my one on one time with a USBC hall of famer...I've learned that all my progress and recent success was built on a very unstable foundation. I mean that figuratively and literally...as that unstable foundation is LITERLALLY unstable due to me having a bit of a knee issue where bending it 90 degrees every time I roll is likely to end my career in a matter of months if not weeks. But in a figuartive sense...I learned that my recent attempts to slow things down and bowl more like an Earl Anthony...setting it down, bending forward, with accuracy, extending towards the pins....is "bad". Instead, I need to bend that sliding knee 90 degrees...with nearly 220 pounds all resting on it...and straighten up.

Trying to do what was being taught Saturday...my timing was destroyed. At one point the ball was so far out in front that I had to stop and start over again. My approach speed was enormous trying to make up for a foot and a half more approach. And my accuracy was somewhere in the range of "toilet"...because I was back to "tossing" it towards a mark like a game of horseshoes.

So...don't "rant"....THATs a rant!! Normally...I think of bowling all the time and can't wait for my next opportunity. I'd bowl everyday if I could. But after Saturday, I'm kinda afraid to go. I'm afraid I've went from 170s and rising towards that 190 target...to the general acceptance that I am and will always be a 140-160 bowler that is one throw away from knee surgery.

Tonight is Monday practice. Normally I'm so excited that I bowl way too fast and am sweating like crazy by Game 3. Well...I have a feeling tonight I'll just "chillax"...have a some cocktails...maybe throw the ball intermittantly. I just don't feel "into it". I've lost my bowling "mojo".

[RobLV1]

Aslan: My rant was a result of my frustration with bowlers who "cherrypick" what and who they want to listen to. Every coach realizes that we all either teach something different, or, in most cases, uses different verbage to express what we are trying to teach. I can honestly say that I have never even attempted to use multiple coaches at the same time. If you find a coach who is helping you, by all means stick with him/her. To do anything else is tantamount to reducing your coaches' chances of helping you, while also reducing you own chances of getting help. I'd be happy to be given the opportunity to work with you again, but if you find someone closer to you who is more accessable, in whom you have confidence, then work with him/her. Just don't "cherrypick" advice. You can only mess yourself up, BIG TIME!

[Aslan]

Aslan: My rant was a result of my frustration with bowlers who "cherrypick" what and who they want to listen to. Every coach realizes that we all either teach something different, or, in most cases, uses different verbage to express what we are trying to teach. I can honestly say that I have never even attempted to use multiple coaches at the same time. If you find a coach who is helping you, by all means stick with him/her. To do anything else is tantamount to reducing your coaches' chances of helping you, while also reducing you own chances of getting help. I'd be happy to be given the opportunity to work with you again, but if you find someone closer to you who is more accessable, in whom you have confidence, then work with him/her. Just don't "cherrypick" advice. You can only mess yourself up, BIG TIME!

I can't disagree with any of that actually.

I think of coaches as providing information and my job is to be a sponge. I take it ALL in. However...some of it will work...some of it won't. My job is to make good decisions about what works and what doesn't.

Over the longer term...I'd like to use that experience to say, "Ya know what...this coach helps the most...I think I'll just stick with him/her." But, one of bowlings problems...lack of popularity = lack of coaches. My local pro shop guy is bronze level...but I don't like his methods. The local weekly clinic is nice, but you don't get a lot of "one-on-one" type of attention. And then there are internet folks that will analyze videos and such...but without that personal interaction...all they are doing is what other forum members are doing.

Around here...the hands down best coach is Mark Baker. He's a former pro, has written what most consider to be the teaching bible, and has developed into even a better "instructor" than a "bowler" which is saying a LOT. But....his lessons are expensive and in high demand. And his camps...are top notch...but WAY too far out of my price range.

Actually, SO FAR, your lesson I think is the "winner" in terms of how it's helped my game. I averaged 165 when I went to see you and am currently averaging 169...BUT...my STATS (and this is why everyone should use PinPal or other apps to track this stuff) have shown MASSIVE improvement!! Single Pin spare shooting closer to 90% has made a WORLD of difference; and is increasing my average rapidly.

So, while I may "experiement" with other advice...what you taught is working...and I ain't messing that up. I tried John Gaines's "stand straighter"...I gave it a try, an honest try, and while it DID help my balance...it crippled my accuracy. So...I've "put it on a shelf" for now.

But, yes, if things keep going well (and feel free to check my "Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)" for some recent accomplishments that will be posted shortly)...I will NEED to take that 3.5-hour drive through desolation to Vegas for another lesson. Results are results.

[RobLV1]

One thing that many bowlers just don't understand is that the game of bowling is comprised of a system of inter-related physical actions. When a coach gives you a suggestion, hopefully it is as a result of seeing your particular system of actions and his/her ability to foresee how the suggestion will affect your ability to reach the desired result. Many bowlers tend to cherry pick suggestions, some of their own creation without understanding the inter-relatedness of the system. They are looking for a magic tip that will suddenly elevate them to the level that they want to attain. An common example of this is tucking the pinky like Sean Rash does. This works for Rash because he incorporateds a turn and lift type of release. If a bowler who uses a lift and turn type of release tries to tuck his pinky, he is in for some serious problems.

I guess the bottom line here is to tread lightly when it comes to trying every willy-nilly piece of advice that comes your way realizing that there is no magic potion, just hard work establishing your own system of bowling that works for you.

[channelsurfer]

This part of the game seems to be one of the most misunderstood......watch a video of George Pappas.....stand tall hand to the ceiling to be able to create hook that is so easily created today with equipment.

Now look at today's players.....forward spine tilt (at the waist, aproximately 15°) but the back itself is straight.....the problem with most players trying to learn is they tend to roll their back forward instead of keeping the back straight with forward tilt.

[rv driver]

One thing that many bowlers just don't understand is that the game of bowling is comprised of a system of inter-related physical actions. When a coach gives you a suggestion, hopefully it is as a result of seeing your particular system of actions and his/her ability to foresee how the suggestion will affect your ability to reach the desired result. Many bowlers tend to cherry pick suggestions, some of their own creation without understanding the inter-relatedness of the system. They are looking for a magic tip that will suddenly elevate them to the level that they want to attain. An common example of this is tucking the pinky like Sean Rash does. This works for Rash because he incorporateds a turn and lift type of release. If a bowler who uses a lift and turn type of release tries to tuck his pinky, he is in for some serious problems.

I guess the bottom line here is to tread lightly when it comes to trying every willy-nilly piece of advice that comes your way realizing that there is no magic potion, just hard work establishing your own system of bowling that works for you.
Having taught music (an equally interrelated series of movement and use of equipment), I can agree with this. What works for one person simply won't work so well for another, due to physique, movement, limitations, type of equipment used, etc. AFAIK, there is no one "formula" that will universally work. That's why, when you watch the pros, you'll see a myriad different "styles" of approach, tilt, swing, release, etc. The reason the pros are the pros is because they've gotten coaching that jibes with them, and they've learned what works for them.

I think Aslan's difficulty (as well as mine, where bowling is concerned) is that he doesn't yet know what works for him.

[Aslan]

I think Aslan's difficulty (as well as mine, where bowling is concerned) is that he doesn't yet know what works for him.

Actually, the way I would phrase it is; "The hardest thing is knowing what advice will work with time/practice and the things to give up on because they just don't fit well with your style." And thats a bought thing…because you may try something and maybe eventually it'll work…but early on it ISN'T. How much time do you put in to make something work versus giving up and going with something that fits you better?

My best example is the modern release and the DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder). These are both modern concepts in bowling. Yet every time I've tried to do the modern release it's been a disaster. And while I found "some" success with DYDS…it was hit or miss.

Thats why my feelings are; you start with the basics…hand up the side of the ball, straight up and down, 1-handed, 1-3 ball arsenal, shoulders straight at the foul line…and then as you progress, you add elements to your game that help you maximize your game. I've learned through my own experiences, trying to adapt advanced concepts too quickly, when you don't have the basics mastered, is more detrimental than helpful.

[Amyers]

Actually, the way I would phrase it is; "The hardest thing is knowing what advice will work with time/practice and the things to give up on because they just don't fit well with your style." And thats a bought thing…because you may try something and maybe eventually it'll work…but early on it ISN'T. How much time do you put in to make something work versus giving up and going with something that fits you better?

My best example is the modern release and the DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder). These are both modern concepts in bowling. Yet every time I've tried to do the modern release it's been a disaster. And while I found "some" success with DYDS…it was hit or miss.

Thats why my feelings are; you start with the basics…hand up the side of the ball, straight up and down, 1-handed, 1-3 ball arsenal, shoulders straight at the foul line…and then as you progress, you add elements to your game that help you maximize your game. I've learned through my own experiences, trying to adapt advanced concepts too quickly, when you don't have the basics mastered, is more detrimental than helpful.

This is very true and everybody has concepts that are easier for them to master than others. Things that are simple for me can be complex for someone else and vise versus. Sometimes you just have to go sideways around a problem too for a while.

[rv driver]

Actually, the way I would phrase it is; "The hardest thing is knowing what advice will work with time/practice and the things to give up on because they just don't fit well with your style." And thats a bought thing…because you may try something and maybe eventually it'll work…but early on it ISN'T. How much time do you put in to make something work versus giving up and going with something that fits you better?

My best example is the modern release and the DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder). These are both modern concepts in bowling. Yet every time I've tried to do the modern release it's been a disaster. And while I found "some" success with DYDS…it was hit or miss.

Thats why my feelings are; you start with the basics…hand up the side of the ball, straight up and down, 1-handed, 1-3 ball arsenal, shoulders straight at the foul line…and then as you progress, you add elements to your game that help you maximize your game. I've learned through my own experiences, trying to adapt advanced concepts too quickly, when you don't have the basics mastered, is more detrimental than helpful.
And that takes time, insight, and good instincts. In all fields -- not just bowling.