Have you ever sandbagged?

[The KingPin]

I have never sandbagged as I am not that good, but what about you? Or have you known someone to do this?

Thanks

[Iceman]

In our Executive league, where $25 a week goes in per bowler, we do have a few teams that do this. 1 of them won both halves last year and pocketed $1500 a bowler. Top 3 pays out well, but then drastically drops off.

Everyone can see it, but can't really prove it. When 3 guys are on, the anchor guy just tosses a few way out, when he is a tight line shooter abg 230.

There was 1 guy that did it 2 years ago, started the year first 4 weeks of 180 avg. He has ALWAYS been a 225 above guy - said he was experimenting with his grips. Well, someone from another house said he overheard him saying (while on another league) that his team would win this year. Our secretary found out about it and asked him the question, he denied it. But then took a vote across the league, and everyone knew about it - so they axed him - his team left with him.

It's really hard to prove - I've been 210 for last 2 years, this year I'm struggling with 2 0's, but everyone knows I've changed my game, they keep asking "where's the hand and fingers you had, you were so much better.." Well I've had 520 nights, but also not tossed out any 750's against teams above us in standings either.

[bowl1820]

Sandbagging (The more PC word is “Pin Management”) usually you hear the word “handicap” following shortly later, I think it’s just a lot of smoke, little fire.
I feel the majority of the time that when you hear “Sand bagger” it’s in jest or someones mad because they lost.
99% 0f the time if you look at the scores. The reason someone lost to the higher handicap team/person. It’s because the low ave. person had a good night or the high ave. bowled bad or just bowled their ave. Sandbagging didn’t figure in to it.
Sandbagging is to gain advantage in leagues or tournaments. But to gain that advantage you have to do it all the time. Doing it for just for a little doesn't gain you enough advantage to make it worth while

In league you could sandbag the entire league just to have a low entering average for tournaments. Like getting into the classified division to clean up.
This wouldn’t really hurt your team in league. you’d just be a low average team member, but it doesn’t really help. You might have a advantage once in awhile, helping in position rounds or for winning pots/brackets with your high handicap. But you can’t do it all the time or your average will shoot up and your advantage will disappear.
Also the rest of your team better be bowling good or all of you be doing the same thing and don't care if they come in last. Plus your bowling bad all the time, thats not going to help your game any.
Now you could sandbag just the first few weeks of league. So you could set some real high league award scores and enter lots of pots/brackets and clean up once or twice at the start of the season. Thats about a one shoot deal though.
You could just sandbag the last few weeks of league so you’d have a low entering average for next years league/tournaments. But you’d be doing it at the worst time for your team, unless your near dead last anyway and nobody cares.
Sandbagging during the middle of the season is a waste of time. You can’t drop your average enough to make a big difference. It's hard to change your average mid season unless you do it for a long period. Just one or two nights won’t change your average enough to gain a useful amount of handicap.

As for Tournaments
The only time you could sandbag “During” a tournament Is in the weekly,monthly, reoccurring tournaments, where you could establish a low tournament average.
In those you’d have throw away several tournaments, to establish a low average just to win some down the road or gain advantage in pots/brackets.
These type of tournaments usually don’t have large prize payouts and depending on how the rules for entering/tournament averages are set up it could be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
As for the non reoccurring/ annual type tournaments. You can’t sandbag during those, theres no point. In them your depending on a low entering average that you have already established during league. To have a advantage in these.
Sandbagging is not a major problem, not to say there's not someone is doing it. Tournaments and leagues are not filled full of sand bagger's.
And no I haven't done it.

[Iceman]

Well now that's a definition and explanation - I would rather bowl in scratch tournaments anyway but it would have to be a sport pattern to still get the participation, and then it's a spare game. This sport has become so much participation that they have to even out the field to make it competitive anymore, it's not like it used to be where it was you against the lane, now it's you against the person your bowling with, lights, music, 60 pin handicap, carry, complaining about more oil, and alcohol. Now that I typed this, no wonder I love this game. :D

[bowl1820]

In our Executive league, where $25 a week goes in per bowler, we do have a few teams that do this. 1 of them won both halves last year and pocketed $1500 a bowler. Top 3 pays out well, but then drastically drops off.

Everyone can see it, but can't really prove it. When 3 guys are on, the anchor guy just tosses a few way out, when he is a tight line shooter abg 230.

Not to say their not. But a 230 ave bowler tossing a few bad shots, isn't going to effect his ave enough to gain that much advantage.


There was 1 guy that did it 2 years ago, started the year first 4 weeks of 180 avg. He has ALWAYS been a 225 above guy - said he was experimenting with his grips. Well, someone from another house said he overheard him saying (while on another league) that his team would win this year. Our secretary found out about it and asked him the question, he denied it. But then took a vote across the league, and everyone knew about it - so they axed him - his team left with him.

They kicked him out of the league because he wasn't bowling up to his usual ave. the first 4 weeks and he said his team would win this year?

He should have filed a complaint with the USBC against the league for it.That's hardly grounds to kick someone out of the league. If that was the case leagues would be kicking teams out left and right.

[Iceman]

They kicked him out of the league because he wasn't bowling up to his usual ave. the first 4 weeks and he said his team would win this year?

He should have filed a complaint with the USBC against the league for it.That's hardly grounds to kick someone out of the league. If that was the case leagues would be kicking teams out left and right.

He was at another house talking about what he was doing at the executive league - he flat out told someone whom he didn't know knew the secretary of our league. That's why he was kicked out. He slipped up

I do understand about a few shots not effecting it - but when someone intentionally messes up because they don't need the pin count - that's wrong. Our executive league is team average - so each team get's 90% of the difference in Team avg. This can fall into the Chicago White sox concept (or black sox). Reputation is huge these days, If I knew someone was doing this outside work activities, I would not trust them inside a work activity - it's just what I believe. I think everyone should be honest and true - in all they do.

[TN_Valley]

I have not ever personally sandbagged. I have seen "Pin Management" from some of the older bowlers. Not trying hard on a spare you don't need isn't necessarily cheating. If I come back and beat you series because of it, I just laugh. It's funny, over the course of a season, it might make a 2 pin difference, but that's not cheating. If you don't try your hardest all the time, then your game is not going to improve.

I've got the highest average in my league of 8 teams. My team has the highest handicap in the league. That's just what happens when you bowl with 3 beginners. Are they gettting better, yes. Is that leading to more wins, yes. Is it cheating, no. Your average is exactly that, your AVERAGE. Mine doesn't fluctuate near as much as theirs, so we stay in more games. But I also sometimes bowl to the level of my competition, good or bad. My average peaked before the Christmas break at 219.98. I haven't shot over 610 in the last three. We've won about half of the games, because they are still improving and my carry went somewhere else.

Sandbagging for tournaments is a whole different animal though. It is helped by division seperation based on average. I personally dislike the bowler that goes into the tournament without a book average from the previous year. They don't have a true starting point. In the SBA tournament, there was a doubles pair of this sort of bowler that shot a 1720. Now come on, each of them shoot 670 with a 150 average. Neither of them had a book average from the previos year, go figure.

Anyway, enough ranting for one day.

[Iceman]

It is helped by division separation based on average.

Now this is the same as an article I read referencing how the women's tour is going to change in 2010, why don't they look into this for the mens?

They could create 5 divisions per tourney - my first guess, 150 and below, 151 - 170, 171 - 190, 191 -210, and 211 - up. handicap based on highest division avg - then a bowler over 220 avg will give up the difference of his avg over 220 to the bowler in head to head competition. This may be a good starting point.

the pin difference over 220 will be in single pins 90% of the time, so to a pro - it's a spare. We know as non-pro's we miss spares based on mental or over confidence. it's like your getting 1 mistake break a game.

If the shot is a sport shot or PBA pattern, they will have to use the conversion which I think is about right, as I was 210 on THS, and 180 on PBA patterns.

[jaws1945]

I've known of bowlers who sandbagged when they joined the ABT until they achieved a high ABT average. They cashed in tournaments right away till they were rerated

[Jord_84]

I hate sandbaggers. If there were enough money at stake though, I'd do the same thing. Otherwise, I'd much rather keep my average up.
money is the root of all evil lol

[The KingPin]

Sandbagging (The more PC word is “Pin Management”) usually you hear the word “handicap” following shortly later, I think it’s just a lot of smoke, little fire.
I feel the majority of the time that when you hear “Sand bagger” it’s in jest or someones mad because they lost.
99% 0f the time if you look at the scores. The reason someone lost to the higher handicap team/person. It’s because the low ave. person had a good night or the high ave. bowled bad or just bowled their ave. Sandbagging didn’t figure in to it.
Sandbagging is to gain advantage in leagues or tournaments. But to gain that advantage you have to do it all the time. Doing it for just for a little doesn't gain you enough advantage to make it worth while

In league you could sandbag the entire league just to have a low entering average for tournaments. Like getting into the classified division to clean up.
This wouldn’t really hurt your team in league. you’d just be a low average team member, but it doesn’t really help. You might have a advantage once in awhile, helping in position rounds or for winning pots/brackets with your high handicap. But you can’t do it all the time or your average will shoot up and your advantage will disappear.
Also the rest of your team better be bowling good or all of you be doing the same thing and don't care if they come in last. Plus your bowling bad all the time, thats not going to help your game any.
Now you could sandbag just the first few weeks of league. So you could set some real high league award scores and enter lots of pots/brackets and clean up once or twice at the start of the season. Thats about a one shoot deal though.
You could just sandbag the last few weeks of league so you’d have a low entering average for next years league/tournaments. But you’d be doing it at the worst time for your team, unless your near dead last anyway and nobody cares.
Sandbagging during the middle of the season is a waste of time. You can’t drop your average enough to make a big difference. It's hard to change your average mid season unless you do it for a long period. Just one or two nights won’t change your average enough to gain a useful amount of handicap.

As for Tournaments
The only time you could sandbag “During” a tournament Is in the weekly,monthly, reoccurring tournaments, where you could establish a low tournament average.
In those you’d have throw away several tournaments, to establish a low average just to win some down the road or gain advantage in pots/brackets.
These type of tournaments usually don’t have large prize payouts and depending on how the rules for entering/tournament averages are set up it could be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
As for the non reoccurring/ annual type tournaments. You can’t sandbag during those, theres no point. In them your depending on a low entering average that you have already established during league. To have a advantage in these.
Sandbagging is not a major problem, not to say there's not someone is doing it. Tournaments and leagues are not filled full of sand bagger's.
And no I haven't done it.


Great write up. Wow I need to read it again and again. Pin management it is

[bowl1820]

Here's for the Bowler's Moot court.

Sandbagging is under USBC Rule 17a part 3 and say's

"Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified
competition."

1-"Establishing an average" happens when you start a league/tournamentt. So this rule prevents you from sandbagging at that time. So would that mean that you "could" sandbag after the "Establishing an average" period has passed?

2-"player’s ability" doe's this just refer to just "physical skill" or doe's it include use of equipment? Are you sandbagging if your using 100% of your skills, but different equipment?

Example:
When your using a high performance ball, good quality bowling shoes and a wrist brace Your a 210 ave bowler. But then you come in and using just your physical skills at 100% you ave 180 with a house ball and house shoes and no wrist brace.