Me bowling advice appreciated

[Amyers]

Here is some background on me I bowled a lot until about 20 years ago left the sport and came back about 6 months ago I will be bowling 2 leagues this summer and I am trying to get my game back. This first video is me one week ago


http://youtu.be/opguY2NeDwY


I noticed that I was starting late on my delivery from it.

[Amyers]

This next video is me from this week sorry not as much on it. But I do believe I was starting my swing earlier


http://youtu.be/yYmnuF64kCw


Let me know what you think I have been struggling with pulling my shot to the left here lately and my balance isn't what it should be.

[Blacksox1]

Welcome to the boards Amyers. We have a couple of bowling coaches on site. I am not one of them. Until recently, I coached elite tennis players here in Florida. To me, your swing motion may be starting late. This may be causing you to rush your release, and possibly your footwork as well. I will defer to Rob or MikeW. Also it is nice to have West "By God" Virginia represented here on the board. I played collegiate tennis and bowling there, on scholarship, in the early 80's. Enjoyed almost every minute of it. Once a Mountaineer, you know the saying. :)

[RobLV1]

Timing is definitely an issue. Pushaway seems to be starting a little bit late, and goes upward as well which makes timing later. The ball should move outward, not upward with the first step. More importantly, you seem to be throwing the ball, rather than rolling the ball. This is a big difference as throwing it actually takes revolutions off of the ball. Just roll it smoothly and let it go. Think of your approach as a dance rather than as a sprint to the foul line.

[Amyers]

Thanks black sox I think there maybe more west Virginians in Florida than in wv sometimes

[Amyers]

I had not noticed the upward movement I wonder if it is there all the time I will work on that. I have had ball speed issues which is why I changed to the faster approach. I will also try to free the swing up and not muscle the ball. I have leagues on Friday maybe able to get a few more shots then if not maybe in practice this weekend.

[RobLV1]

Unfortunately, many bowlers try to increase their ball speed by increasing the speed of their feet in their approach. The feet and the ball must go together. When the foot speed is increased, the timing gets later which ultimately slows the ball down. You are correct in the fact that a muscle-free armswing, along with neutral timing is the most effective way of increasing ball speed. Less muscle = more speed!

[bowl1820]

Hi amyers!

What I noticed is your balance is off at the foul line, notice how you fall off to the right after your release.

You want to be able to "post" the shot (hold your position) after your release the ball.

[Aslan]

you seem to be throwing the ball, rather than rolling the ball.... Think of your approach as a dance rather than as a sprint to the foul line.
This sounds familiar.


This is a big difference as throwing it actually takes revolutions off of the ball. Just roll it smoothly and let it go. Think of your approach as a dance rather than as a sprint to the foul line. I understand what Rob is saying with this...but I kinda disagree.

I mean, "yes"...if you're using a strong ball...modern balls tend to provide their own hook if you come behind them as is presently taught with modern releases.

BUT...with a "coming up the side" older school release...I PERSONALLY get WAY more REVS by throwing it because my hand is coming from either slightly behind or from a "suitcase" position....so most of the revs are generated in the upward motion.

To get more revs WITHOUT that upward motion...I have to learn to start my release with my hand on the inside so those revs are generated as I come around the ball and release forward (rather than up).

So...I agree with Rob's premise...but I think it assumes a inside hand position, higher end reactive type of ball, and a more modern release. I can say with 120% certainty from video evidence of my own release...that when I used to "throw" it (upward swing)...compared to now...my revs decreased from somewhere around 300-400rpms to 100-200rpms. Sometimes I "accidentally" "chuck it" and the result is a ball with more speed but also more revs and lateral movement. If I'm lucky...that mistaken shot cancels itself out as it starts hooking later but hooks more and I still hit the pocket. But that usually depends on how dry the area is where I make that mistake.

As to advice for the OP...Rob helped me to stop "throwing it" and start rolling it and it seems to be working so...I'll defer to him. It's hard because of your size (from my own experience as well) to get a real "textbook" knee bend that helps facilitate a good roll. Trying to "roll it" versus either drop it or chuck it is difficult for larger folks and folks with knee problems. But "throwing it" is a difficult style to master (believe me...I tried like hell to master it) because it requires a much higher level of accuracy to consistently hit that spot. And as you've mentioned/noticed...with so much upper body torque/motion...you have a greater tendency to pull the shot OR over-compensate and drop it in the gutter.

Try working on rolling it...focusing on hitting a board over and over again. If you can roll it with accuracy...I think you can develop the revs later. Thats what I'm doing. It's frustrating...and it sucks when I can't seem to strike as much as I should hitting that pocket so consistently. BUT...your spare shooting will improve and your average will rise. Or...keep throwing it and see if you can develop a consistent shot that way. It's not impossible...I've seen some really good bowlers loft it 8-10ft and score well. But I think thats a harder road (or I would have stayed on it).

My opinion. (completely non-credentialed)

[RobLV1]

Aslan: Yes, it assumes a modern reactive ball, a hand position on the inside of the ball, and a more modern release. It does so for a reason and that reason is that he left the game about 20 years ago (just about the time that modern bowling balls were introduced), and he "wants to get his game back." If he really wants to get his game back, he will use a modern reactive ball, and learn to keep his hand on the inside of the ball and develop a modern release. Believe me, I admire your tenacity, but for the short time that you have been bowling, you really shouldn't be trying to help others. You have very, very limited experience, and though something works well for you now, I have a hunch that in six months you'll say to yourself, "What the hell was I thinking?" Please give others the benefit of the doubt. You are doing more harm than good. You know me, and I think that you believe that I am honestly trying to help people. Please let me!

[Aslan]

Again, maybe we need some rule that experience < X years or average < X can't give advice.

I mean, he's releasing the EXACT way I was…and you gave him the EXACT advice you gave me. I was merely sharing my take on it having made the EXACT same adjustment he likely will need to make.

I wasn't "debating" you…just clarifying. As you left it…simply rolling it would = more revs. And it simply is not factual from what I've found. Anyone thats ever used a strike ball to pick up spares by keeping their hand directly behind the ball knows that. I have tons of video on youtube…if anyone wants to show me how my revs have increased after transitioning from "throwing" to "rolling"…is welcome to it.

We can debate "opinions", and I'll just defer to yours…but we can't debate facts.

[Amyers]

First I want to thank everyone for their comments. I didn't realize I was throwing the ball instead of rolling it until you guys mentioned it. It's amazing how easy it is to get in that habit. I bowled leagues last night sorry no video had no one to take it. I threw 139(yuck), 165, 169. Felt better the last two games but I was getting no reaction (hook) out of the ball at all. I do have a reactive ball currently throwing a polished seismic euphoric. I would like to add something a little more aggressive in the future. I picked this as I was rev dominate with my older ball but I seem to have picked up some speed and lost revs here recently. I don't know if I have a modern release or not. I know aslan is newer I have watched a lot of his earlier and later vids I am impressed by his want to get better. I averaged as high as 195 and this is back in the days when urathane was aggressive and that was one of the higher averages in my house. I also bowl at and older alley with wood lanes and often poor pin action so I know what aslan is going through with that. My return has been strange I have thrown as high as 265 and dropped a 650 series the other day. I have also thrown some of the worst games I have ever had recently a 128 the other day the 139 at league I don't feel very good about either. On staying inside the ball aslan has some points I was experimenting with this after leagues and once I came threw the ball and it felt right and it looked to have about my normal revs two other times it was a backup ball and the only use I could come up with was for shooting 7 pins. I'm sure I'm not doing it correctly at least consistently. I find a lot of difference in my revs on how much I cup my wrist I don't really know if you have experimented with that or not aslan I do much better with revs when I do but I have times when I can do it perfectly but does seem to cause me to loft more other times it affects my accuracy. I quit doing it my last two games of leagues last night ball wasn't hooking anyway and I was hitting my marks better. I will provably have som more vids today or tomorrow thanks for everything guys

[Amyers]

Here are some new video from practice today felt better threw 219 and 186. Actually felt the second game was better but threw two pocket 7-10s. I was trying to work on my release and slowing up a bit. Rob I know I don't have the best angle here but if you could let me know what you think I would appreciate it. Anyone else who would like to comment your welcome

http://youtu.be/FIwenLkhRWI

[RobLV1]

The last shot, your timing was really good. It was a strike before you ever let it go. The others... not so much. The push away and the ball go with you first step (the fourth step back from the line for the five steppers). When you push away with your first step, you roll a great shot. When you step and then push, you don't work on that. That enables you to post your shot (hold your follow-through). When you can't hold your follow through, you're late, and depending on what you do to compensate, the ball can go anywhere.

[Amyers]

Practiced again last night shot 168-186-175. Worked on the timing still not quite there yet. Shot spare pretty well was clean on the second game. Bowling is strange my release felt really good the day before but it was never quite right yesterday.

I seem to get off to a slow start it seem to take me a while to find my line and get warmed up do others have this problem. It takes me 3 or 4 shots to feel like the ball is coming off my hand right and then at 4 more to get my line right

[got_a_300]

Your timing in the first videos was pretty much that of a
5 step approach only you were taking 4 steps instead.

The last video your timing looks a little bit better but it is
still a hair late on most of your shots and thus it is throwing
you off balance at the foul line.

Have you ever considered going to a 5 step approach? I used
to have about the same timing issues when I first started out
bowling and using a 4 step approach.

The lane man who was a great bowler himself worked with me
and got me changed over to a 5 step approach and all my timing
issues went away and back then I could post every shot without
any trouble.

I learned how to use and change up between a 4 step and a 5
step approach as conditions warranted it but fast forward quite
a few years and with a bad back and bad knees it is a lot harder
to post shots and hold the position until the ball hits the pins now
days.

If you keep on working on it and practice you will be able to master
your approach one of these days soon.

[rv driver]

Here's my 2-cents' worth. I'm not a coach, but I used to be a bowler with an average just shy of 210. On your first step, the ball ought to be on its way down. by the end of your second step, the ball should be approaching the apex of your backswing. All of that is late, which means that your forward swing and release are late. When that happens, all your weight is being balanced on your left foot,but you've got a lot of late weight movement (arm, shoulder, body carry-through and ball) coming forward after your left foot is already planted. That will cause a rotation around that planted foot in the direction of the movement. If you were looking at yourself from a top view, you would see your shoulders moving counter-clockwise around the axis of your left foot. That's what's throwing you off balance and causing you to pull your shot to the left. If you did a few things (in my humble view): 1) bring the motion of your throwing arm into congruity with the motion of your left foot as it takes its slide step, 2) set your weight back just a hair behind your left toe (which requires more knee bend) your weight and momentum wouldn't be thrown counter-clockwise around your left foot, causing your weight to come forward of your balancing left foot, over the foul line, 3) put your left arm out in front of you on your backswing (thus putting your left shoulder slightly ahead of your throwing shoulder). and 4) put a bit more slide into your slide step, you would counterbalance the weight, offset the momentum of your shoulder, and release the ball on time.

[RobLV1]

Exercising great restraint here!

[Amyers]

Rob was it something I said

[RobLV1]

No, it was something rv driver said: "I'm not a coach, but I used to be a bowler with an average just shy of 210." A bowler with an average of 210, or 220, or 230, or 240, or whatever is not a coach. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. If you want to learn to coach, go through the USBC Coaching Certification program. Contrary to popular belief, it's not just a matter of pay your money and get your certification. You actually have to learn something! Walter Ray Williams Jr., who has won more PBA titles than any other player in history EARNED his Silver Certification. The same can be said of Wendy Macpherson, Carolyn Dorin-Ballard (who is currently in charge of the USBC Coaching program), and many others including the late Tony Reyes, and Rhino Page who both attended the same Silver Certification class that I did. Even Mark Baker, with all of his fame and experience went through some of the certification program though I'm not sure how far (I just know that he was in the same Level I class that I was).

If you want to learn to coach, by all means, do it! There are far too few qualified bowling coaches out there, and, frankly, bowlers deserve to have us as a genuine resource to help them to learn this great game.

[Mike White]

There are lecturers, graders and teachers.

Lecturers tell you what they think you're supposed to do.
Graders tell you what they think you're doing wrong.
Teachers tell you how to make changes, so you are doing less things wrong.

True teachers are rare.

[rv driver]

Gee, RobLV... Way to encourage people to participate freely in the forum conversation!

[Amyers]

Gee, RobLV... Way to encourage people to participate freely in the forum conversation!

I figure he was talking about the previous post just wanted to be sure.

[Aslan]

Exercising great restraint here!
You actually were...I was surprised!


Teachers tell you how to make changes, so you are doing less things wrong.

True teachers are rare.
Well put. I admit, I suck as a teacher. I keep trying to "teach" my daughter to bowl...and it just isn't working. And I get too frustrated.


Gee, RobLV... Way to encourage people to participate freely in the forum conversation!
I see where Rob is coming from...but yes, that IS a drawback of a forum like this.

I know most people thought I was kidding...but I REALLY DO think we could alleviate some of these issues if we had a section where only bronze, silver, gold, or former PBA pros could respond. Or maybe an area where only those with a verified average over X. If we don't...and people ask for general advice...they will get general advice from everyone. Some of that advice may be valuable, some may be useless, and some may actually be counter-productive.

If we DON'T go to that type of system (which we won't), then I think Rob needs to just give the best advice he can, give his credentials, and if challenged make solid arguements. It's then up to the bowler asking for advice to decide which advice to take, which advice to consider, and which advice to ignore.

Welcome to the internet folks.

[RobLV1]

This thread brings up some very interesting and complex issues. Yes, the idea of an internet "forum" encourages everyone to share their views. Unfortunately, when it comes to asking for and/or giving advice to help improve ones game, how are bowlers to know who to listen to? I apologize to rv driver for my curtness, however, this subject obviously hits a nerve with me. I've personally witnessed well-meaning, very high average bowlers give advice to others that was not only useless, it was actually detrimental. I know of at least one bowler who actually decided to quit the game because of some ill-conceived advice.

I think that a large part of the problem in coaching bowling is the process by which coaches are certified. In golf, if you want lessons you go to a PGA Teaching PROFESSIONAL. These are professional golfers who choose to specialize in coaching either because it's where their true passion lies, or simply because they are not good enough at playing the game themselves to compete at a professional level. In bowling, coaches are certified by the USBC, the organization to which virtually every league bowler in the country belongs. As USBC Certified Coaches, we are just that. We are not considered to be Coaching Professionals by the simple fact that it is the USBC and not the PBA that is doing the certifying.

Aslan is correct when he says that it's up to the individual who is asking for the advice to determine who to listen to and who to ignore. I have just one question. What criteria is the individual supposed to use to determine what advice to follow?

[Mudpuppy]

You actually were...I was surprised!


Well put. I admit, I suck as a teacher. I keep trying to "teach" my daughter to bowl...and it just isn't working. And I get too frustrated.


I see where Rob is coming from...but yes, that IS a drawback of a forum like this.

I know most people thought I was kidding...but I REALLY DO think we could alleviate some of these issues if we had a section where only bronze, silver, gold, or former PBA pros could respond. Or maybe an area where only those with a verified average over X. If we don't...and people ask for general advice...they will get general advice from everyone. Some of that advice may be valuable, some may be useless, and some may actually be counter-productive.

If we DON'T go to that type of system (which we won't), then I think Rob needs to just give the best advice he can, give his credentials, and if challenged make solid arguements. It's then up to the bowler asking for advice to decide which advice to take, which advice to consider, and which advice to ignore.

Welcome to the internet folks.

Very intriguing debate - not. Lost me at hello. But what I glean from all this:

Cliff Notes: Aslan has a kid?!?!??!?! Is there a law against such an atrocity? Now I am going to have to have 10 more kids to offset the damage to the gene pool.

[rv driver]

This thread brings up some very interesting and complex issues. Yes, the idea of an internet "forum" encourages everyone to share their views. Unfortunately, when it comes to asking for and/or giving advice to help improve ones game, how are bowlers to know who to listen to? I apologize to rv driver for my curtness, however, this subject obviously hits a nerve with me. I've personally witnessed well-meaning, very high average bowlers give advice to others that was not only useless, it was actually detrimental. I know of at least one bowler who actually decided to quit the game because of some ill-conceived advice.

I think that a large part of the problem in coaching bowling is the process by which coaches are certified. In golf, if you want lessons you go to a PGA Teaching PROFESSIONAL. These are professional golfers who choose to specialize in coaching either because it's where their true passion lies, or simply because they are not good enough at playing the game themselves to compete at a professional level. In bowling, coaches are certified by the USBC, the organization to which virtually every league bowler in the country belongs. As USBC Certified Coaches, we are just that. We are not considered to be Coaching Professionals by the simple fact that it is the USBC and not the PBA that is doing the certifying.

Aslan is correct when he says that it's up to the individual who is asking for the advice to determine who to listen to and who to ignore. I have just one question. What criteria is the individual supposed to use to determine what advice to follow?
I've also known board-certified physicians to injure and kill patients. I've known certificated pilots to put passengers and others in harm's way. I've known ordained ministers to drive people away from their faith and their sanity. I've known certified teachers to screw up students for life. I've known certified chefs to serve bad food and make people sick. And I'd be willing to bet that there has been more than one certified bowling coach to put aspiring players off the game with bad coaching.

If you think "certified" means anything other than the cheap paper it's printed on, you've got another think coming. Which doctors, pilots, clergy, teachers and chefs are we supposed to trust, then? What criteria do we use? I think most people are savvy enough to use their own noggin when it comes to taking advice -- "certified" or not.

The fact is, dear Coach, this isn't a "Certified USBC Coaching Center" -- it's (supposed to be) a friendly and open internet forum. Friendly, useful, useless, bad, great advice is expected and encouraged here -- just as it is in the open bowling centers where similar exchanges happen all the time. That's because this is a place to meet and banter -- not a place for serious coaching (until such a forum is added to this site). I apologize for having upset your bowling/coaching sensibilities with my friendly (and honest, BTW) posting. That's not what this forum is about.

I do have to say that your commentary in post #20 has done nothing to further endear me to the sport of bowling (which I've loved for a long, long time). It's also really done nothing to add to the conversational topic of the thread. Here's a suggestion: instead of bashing people for doing what they're expected to do here and running them down as useless and not worth listening to, making the thread all about protecting the sanctity of credentials, maybe you could impart some of your great bowling/coaching wisdom by pointing out exactly what points you disagree with in my post, and then give more correct information in contrast to it. THAT would help the OP improve his game by better addressing possible issues, and help me in the bargain (which is what a coach is supposed to do) by putting better concepts in my head. (And it wouldn't tick me off and make me feel like a stupid heel, which is always good). By discussing good and bad concepts in juxtaposition, better light is shed on our common mistakes and misconceptions. Isn't that what a "great teacher" does?

As a point of fact, I'd be very interested to hear how you disagree with my post (so long as it's respectful); I'm always up for learning something good -- just not up for being "put in my place."

[Aslan]

Now I am going to have to have 10 more kids to offset the damage to the gene pool.

I think you've had your limit.

As to the debate...I actually think certification does matter to some degree. Any time someone goes through that process, they are going to learn things that everyone else may not. How valuable is it in the end? Hard to say. You'll find non-certified guys who have been bowling for 40 years that might give you some of the greatest advice ever...and there are bronze certified coaches that just got the certificate so they can attract more people to their pro shop. But on AVERAGE...I think you listen to the certified folks over the non-certified folks.

I try to only offer advice if I see something in someone's game that I used to struggle with or still am struggling with. Not so much as "instruction" as "comiseration". But if they have an actual technical question...no matter what my "opinion"...I'd defer them to Rob, Bowl1820, or vdub. Rob is a credentialed instructer, Bowl1820 is a wealth of knowledge, and vdub is walking the walk. Does that mean I agree with everything they say...no. Not because they are wrong...just because some things don't fit my game and some things my game isn't ready for.

I know eventually I'll have to improve my release to get more revs. If I want to get to the next level...thats a given. Release is the single most important thing (just ahead of timing). But right now I need to master slowing my speed down and my accuracy. Trying to develop a modern release or go back to my high loft/post to the ceiling release...isn't going to do me any good if I can't hit my spot with accuracy or get my speed under control. So...I work on little things...I practice a lot...I watch a lot of film...and I try to stay focused. Can't improve everything all at once. When I feel like I've mastered these couple items...time to go visit Rob for lesson #2 and have him give me some more things to work on. Who knows...maybe some day I'll be ready for that "modern release" I keep hearing so much about. But until then...I got enough to work on.

When I commented on Rob's instruction...it was simply to clarify. Because I KNOW FOR A FACT that when Rob first gave ME that advice (stop trying to make it hook, keep your hand behind it, it'll hook on it's own)...I threw it straight into the right gutter because I left my hand behind the ball and rolled it directly over the thumb hole straight as an arrow. And if Amyers tries Rob's advice...word for word...THAT is what will happen (especially with an older ball or symmetric core, non-aggressive ball). And what will Amyers think? "That Rob guy is full of it!" But "that Rob guy" isn't "full of it"....he just didn't explain it very well.

I know it's frustrating RV. Believe me...I've been told by more than one person that my "opinions" are "dangerous"...which I think is rediculous given I can't fathom ANY BOWLING ADVICE being "dangerous" unless it involves suspending a ball a great distance above one's head and dropping it. I've also been routinely mocked for having "a lot of opinions for someone with not a lot of average/experience". But...it's okay. Some of these guys average 190-210 and have been bowling 35 years. I should be averging 190 after bowling less than 2. And I use every insult as a source of motivation. I'm not just focused on getting better...I'm focused on proving a lot of haters wrong.

[rv driver]

I think you've had your limit.

As to the debate...I actually think certification does matter to some degree. Any time someone goes through that process, they are going to learn things that everyone else may not. How valuable is it in the end? Hard to say. You'll find non-certified guys who have been bowling for 40 years that might give you some of the greatest advice ever...and there are bronze certified coaches that just got the certificate so they can attract more people to their pro shop. But on AVERAGE...I think you listen to the certified folks over the non-certified folks.

I try to only offer advice if I see something in someone's game that I used to struggle with or still am struggling with. Not so much as "instruction" as "comiseration". But if they have an actual technical question...no matter what my "opinion"...I'd defer them to Rob, Bowl1820, or vdub. Rob is a credentialed instructer, Bowl1820 is a wealth of knowledge, and vdub is walking the walk. Does that mean I agree with everything they say...no. Not because they are wrong...just because some things don't fit my game and some things my game isn't ready for.

I know eventually I'll have to improve my release to get more revs. If I want to get to the next level...thats a given. Release is the single most important thing (just ahead of timing). But right now I need to master slowing my speed down and my accuracy. Trying to develop a modern release or go back to my high loft/post to the ceiling release...isn't going to do me any good if I can't hit my spot with accuracy or get my speed under control. So...I work on little things...I practice a lot...I watch a lot of film...and I try to stay focused. Can't improve everything all at once. When I feel like I've mastered these couple items...time to go visit Rob for lesson #2 and have him give me some more things to work on. Who knows...maybe some day I'll be ready for that "modern release" I keep hearing so much about. But until then...I got enough to work on.

When I commented on Rob's instruction...it was simply to clarify. Because I KNOW FOR A FACT that when Rob first gave ME that advice (stop trying to make it hook, keep your hand behind it, it'll hook on it's own)...I threw it straight into the right gutter because I left my hand behind the ball and rolled it directly over the thumb hole straight as an arrow. And if Amyers tries Rob's advice...word for word...THAT is what will happen (especially with an older ball or symmetric core, non-aggressive ball). And what will Amyers think? "That Rob guy is full of it!" But "that Rob guy" isn't "full of it"....he just didn't explain it very well.

I know it's frustrating RV. Believe me...I've been told by more than one person that my "opinions" are "dangerous"...which I think is rediculous given I can't fathom ANY BOWLING ADVICE being "dangerous" unless it involves suspending a ball a great distance above one's head and dropping it. I've also been routinely mocked for having "a lot of opinions for someone with not a lot of average/experience". But...it's okay. Some of these guys average 190-210 and have been bowling 35 years. I should be averging 190 after bowling less than 2. And I use every insult as a source of motivation. I'm not just focused on getting better...I'm focused on proving a lot of haters wrong.
I agree.

I'd still be really interested in seeing what Rob has to say about my observations. I feel like I could learn something if he'd give me the opportunity.

[RobLV1]

rv driver: Fair enough. Here goes:

Here's my 2-cents' worth. I'm not a coach, but I used to be a bowler with an average just shy of 210. On your first step, the ball ought to be on its way down. The ball and the first step should move in tandum, with the ball being moved in an outward direction, not upward. An upward direction in the pushaway creates two bad effects: late timing and muscle in the swing that can only be detrimental.

By the end of your second step, the ball should be approaching the apex of your backswing. Ball should be by the ball side leg at the end of the second step.The ball reaches the full height of the backswing at the end of the third step.

All of that is late, which means that your forward swing and release are late. When that happens, all your weight is being balanced on your left foot,but you've got a lot of late weight movement (arm, shoulder, body carry-through and ball) coming forward after your left foot is already planted. The slight pause at the beginning of the push away, combined with the upward motion of the push away and the resulting muscle in the swing is causing the late timing.

That will cause a rotation around that planted foot in the direction of the movement. If you were looking at yourself from a top view, you would see your shoulders moving counter-clockwise around the axis of your left foot. That's what's throwing you off balance and causing you to pull your shot to the left. When the bowlers slide foot reaches the line before the ball does, a natural reaction is to pull the bowling shoulder forward to help the ball to catch up. This is called "late timing trying to be early." This often leads to pulled shots, and general inconsistency in terms of hitting the intended target.

If you did a few things (in my humble view): 1) bring the motion of your throwing arm into congruity with the motion of your left foot as it takes its slide step, When the motion of the ball (the motion of the throwing arm should be free of muscle and totally dependent on the momentum of the ball's motion) is "brought into congruity with the slide step," the bowler has corrected his timing. This is easier said than done, but a good exercise that I often recommend is to concentrate on posting every shot at the line. In order to post the shot, the timing must be correct, and it's often easier for a bowler to kind of back into a timing correction by concentrating on the finished result - posting the shot.

2) set your weight back just a hair behind your left toe (which requires more knee bend) your weight and momentum wouldn't be thrown counter-clockwise around your left foot, causing your weight to come forward of your balancing left foot, over the foul line, 3) put your left arm out in front of you on your backswing (thus putting your left shoulder slightly ahead of your throwing shoulder). and 4) put a bit more slide into your slide step, you would counterbalance the weight, offset the momentum of your shoulder, and release the ball on time. One of the first things that coaches are taught during the Certification process is that by introducing more than two or, at a maximum, three things for the bowler to work on at one time you run the risk of causing massive confusion and doing the bowler more harm than good. In this particular case, I believe that the bowler would benefit the most by: 1) Making sure that the ball moves in an outward, not upward, direction in tandum with the first step, 2) Posting each shot at the line to correct late timing, and 3) Rolling the ball rather than throwing the ball to further encourage neutral timing by discouraging a muscled pull of the ball as it is thrown down the lane.

[rv driver]

The ball and the first step should move in tandum, with the ball being moved in an outward direction, not upward.
Right, but owing to the late timing, doesn't it make sense to bring the ball out and down on the first step (I understand that a lower beginning point will speed up the swing timing)?

Ball should be by the ball side leg at the end of the second step.The ball reaches the full height of the backswing at the end of the third step.Ok. You're right. I was moving a little too fast there.

The slight pause at the beginning of the push away, combined with the upward motion of the push away and the resulting muscle in the swing is causing the late timing.
Right. But I was looking at the resultant balance problem. It looked to me as if the swing, being late, was throwing his weight forward of the slide foot after his foot was planted. With the momentum of the slide foot/leg stopped, and the shoulder/arm still moving forward, wouldn't that cause what I suspected: the shoulder moving counter-clockwise around the "X" axis of the slide foot/leg, thereby causing him to pull the shot to the left and causing his right foot to step out to the right?

When the bowlers slide foot reaches the line before the ball does, a natural reaction is to pull the bowling shoulder forward to help the ball to catch up. This is called "late timing trying to be early." This often leads to pulled shots, and general inconsistency in terms of hitting the intended target.
So, you're saying that it has nothing to do with momentum and everything to do with psychology? Why couldn't it be both? A large person throwing a heavy ball creates a lot of momentum that will pull the body along further, yes?

When the motion of the ball (the motion of the throwing arm should be free of muscle and totally dependent on the momentum of the ball's motion) is "brought into congruity with the slide step," the bowler has corrected his timing. This is easier said than done, but a good exercise that I often recommend is to concentrate on posting every shot at the line. In order to post the shot, the timing must be correct, and it's often easier for a bowler to kind of back into a timing correction by concentrating on the finished result - posting the shot.
I love this concept! Thanks.

One of the first things that coaches are taught during the Certification process is that by introducing more than two or, at a maximum, three things for the bowler to work on at one time you run the risk of causing massive confusion and doing the bowler more harm than good.
You're absolutely correct here. That's not only true in coaching, but in teaching of any kind.

In this particular case, I believe that the bowler would benefit the most by: 1) Making sure that the ball moves in an outward, not upward, direction in tandum with the first step, 2) Posting each shot at the line to correct late timing, and 3) Rolling the ball rather than throwing the ball to further encourage neutral timing by discouraging a muscled pull of the ball as it is thrown down the lane.
Ok. Do you think, though, that ("good coaching" aside) the "fixes" I suggested are technically incorrect? If so, why?

[RobLV1]

No, they're not wrong, just convoluted. You have a sense about coaching, but you need some direction. You are a PERFECT candidate for the USBC Certification program. Your comment about "all teaching" is absolutely correct. I am a retired middle school teacher. With you, it's just about focusing your attention to the relevant issues, as hard as it is to ignore the others.

[rv driver]

No, they're not wrong, just convoluted. You have a sense about coaching, but you need some direction. You are a PERFECT candidate for the USBC Certification program. Your comment about "all teaching" is absolutely correct. I am a retired middle school teacher. With you, it's just about focusing your attention to the relevant issues, as hard as it is to ignore the others.
Good call! I see how your suggestions are more focused and thereby more effective. Thanks for your input. I was looking at it purely from an ergonomics standpoint, ignoring the psychology of effecting the "fix."

[Amyers]

Well I'm off to league tonight hope to shoot good scores we will see. I'll post them later if anyone else is bowling tonight good luck!!!!

[Amyers]

Well I bowled tonight if you want to call it that. Positively the worst I have bowled in my memory. 138-134-116 I was so embarrassed. I had struggled last week in this league and decided to move farther outside even though that is a line I'm not real comfortable with. Big mistake I missed my marks by as much as ten boards on some shots tonight just didn't have it and even when I threw a decent shot nothing good happened. I don't know back to the drawling board I will practice tomorrow. I did feel my balance was some better today I was able to post over half my shots but it really didn't seem to help my pulling the ball to the left. Some days your the bug some days your the windshield. Today I was the bug.

[MICHAEL]

Well I bowled tonight if you want to call it that. Positively the worst I have bowled in my memory. 138-134-116 I was so embarrassed. I had struggled last week in this league and decided to move farther outside even though that is a line I'm not real comfortable with. Big mistake I missed my marks by as much as ten boards on some shots tonight just didn't have it and even when I threw a decent shot nothing good happened. I don't know back to the drawling board I will practice tomorrow. I did feel my balance was some better today I was able to post over half my shots but it really didn't seem to help my pulling the ball to the left. Some days your the bug some days your the windshield. Today I was the bug.

Hey everyone has days that they would like to have (do overs!) A HUGE part of any bad day I have bowling, has to do with FOCUS! Focus can make or break you in bowling! Keeping your mind, and eyes FOCUSED on that mark, and NOT TAKING YOUR EYES of that mark. Much like hitting a golf ball!

You will live Amyers... LOL..... Keep on Rolling them there balls, and FOCUS..... (:) So many things will fall into place, but it all begins with FOCUS.http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/focus_zps70f87afe.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/focus_zps70f87afe.jpg.html)

[RobLV1]

Missing your mark by that much is most probably a timing issue. Practice posting your shots (hold your follow though until the ball is past the pins). The only way that you can post a shot is if your timing is correct. Sometimes just concentrating on posting will allow your body to fix your timing without looking at any individual elements in the approach.

[Aslan]

I missed my marks by as much as ten boards on some shots


A HUGE part of any bad day I have bowling, has to do with FOCUS! Focus can make or break you in bowling! Keeping your mind, and eyes FOCUSED on that mark, and NOT TAKING YOUR EYES of that mark. Much like hitting a golf ball!...and FOCUS.....but it all begins with FOCUS.


Missing your mark by that much is most probably a timing issue. Practice posting your shots (hold your follow though until the ball is past the pins). The only way that you can post a shot is if your timing is correct. Sometimes just concentrating on posting will allow your body to fix your timing without looking at any individual elements in the approach.

Amerys…when I stopped "chucking/throwing" the ball and started at least attempting to roll it…much lower speed and less revs….the number one improvement has been accuracy. I'll still miss by as many as 7 boards if my thumb sticks or I try to put too much into the shot…but as of right now on MOST shots…I'm hitting my target +/- 2 boards. And as a result…everything (average, spare shooting) has gotten better. The only downside thus far has been carry/power….hard to get a good angle into the pocket without that high rpm angular back end.

But my shot is now very much like a Don Carter or Earl Anthony shot. It's low rev…but it's ACCURATE. And what is the biggest difference between a house bowler and a pro bowler?? ACCURACY. A pro can hit within less than a board of his target almost every shot…some even better than that! Throwing/chucking it gave me more power and an angular shot into the pocket…but I was at best +/- 3 boards and at worst +/- 12 boards from my target.

So agree with Ice….focus and accuracy. Remember Mel Gibson's line in The Patriot…"aim small, miss small". I used to aim for an "area" around my target and now I aim for a board. Someday I want to me so accurate I aim for a part of a board. The smaller the target…if you miss…you only miss a little. Aim small, miss small.

And Rob is right. When I make my best shots…I'm balanced on one knee with my arm swinging back and forth. When I'm off balanced or feel like the ball is pulling me across the foul line or off to the side….usually worse shots. But it's gonna be hard. Like you, I'm a bigger guy and my left knee hasn't been 100% since I was 9 years old…so getting low where I have my best balance…not always easy.


Well I bowled tonight if you want to call it that. Positively the worst I have bowled in my memory. 138-134-116 I was so embarrassed.

You realize, I can't count that towards your entering VBT average right? I'm going to use your average from last night's league sheet (BEFORE you shot that). So if it was all a big sandbagging attempt to win the VBT…FAIL. <----- kidding.

Also, reminder, send me the scan of the league sheet from last night so I can get your average into the system.

[rv driver]

Hey everyone has days that they would like to have (do overs!) A HUGE part of any bad day I have bowling, has to do with FOCUS! Focus can make or break you in bowling! Keeping your mind, and eyes FOCUSED on that mark, and NOT TAKING YOUR EYES of that mark. Much like hitting a golf ball!

You will live Amyers... LOL..... Keep on Rolling them there balls, and FOCUS..... (:) So many things will fall into place, but it all begins with FOCUS.http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/focus_zps70f87afe.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/focus_zps70f87afe.jpg.html)
The worst day bowling beats the best day not bowling... At least you're on the lanes throwing a ball!

[rv driver]

Amerys…when I stopped "chucking/throwing" the ball and started at least attempting to roll it…much lower speed and less revs….the number one improvement has been accuracy. I'll still miss by as many as 7 boards if my thumb sticks or I try to put too much into the shot…but as of right now on MOST shots…I'm hitting my target +/- 2 boards. And as a result…everything (average, spare shooting) has gotten better. The only downside thus far has been carry/power….hard to get a good angle into the pocket without that high rpm angular back end.

But my shot is now very much like a Don Carter or Earl Anthony shot. It's low rev…but it's ACCURATE. And what is the biggest difference between a house bowler and a pro bowler?? ACCURACY. A pro can hit within less than a board of his target almost every shot…some even better than that! Throwing/chucking it gave me more power and an angular shot into the pocket…but I was at best +/- 3 boards and at worst +/- 12 boards from my target.

So agree with Ice….focus and accuracy. Remember Mel Gibson's line in The Patriot…"aim small, miss small". I used to aim for an "area" around my target and now I aim for a board. Someday I want to me so accurate I aim for a part of a board. The smaller the target…if you miss…you only miss a little. Aim small, miss small.

And Rob is right. When I make my best shots…I'm balanced on one knee with my arm swinging back and forth. When I'm off balanced or feel like the ball is pulling me across the foul line or off to the side….usually worse shots. But it's gonna be hard. Like you, I'm a bigger guy and my left knee hasn't been 100% since I was 9 years old…so getting low where I have my best balance…not always easy.



You realize, I can't count that towards your entering VBT average right? I'm going to use your average from last night's league sheet (BEFORE you shot that). So if it was all a big sandbagging attempt to win the VBT…FAIL. <----- kidding.

Also, reminder, send me the scan of the league sheet from last night so I can get your average into the system.
Low and slow -- just letting the shot happen allows you to better integrate your movements with the ball; it's always worked for me, anyway. The minute I begin forcing, I'm off the mark.

[Amyers]

Thanks for all the remarks guys some days it's just tuff and that is what happened to me yesterday. It didn't help that I was bowling with and against some really top notch bowlers just made it that much worse for me.

After some time to think about what I did yesterday and listening to you guys I think I figured out what was going on. I believe it was really three problems.

1. I have been struggling with the lanes having more oil than what I'm used to during open play. I said I was going to move farther outside to combat this but it really didn't work for it to make a difference I had to be five or farther out and I'm just not comfortable there. I am okay anywhere laying down between 7 and 17 any farther out or in I just struggle.

2. In reaction to this I started to try and hook the ball. Yes I know better but when your bowling with guys that have more aggressive balls and higher revs than you it gets in at least my head. This caused me to try and increase my cup of the wrist and I believe it was slowing my swing down causing as Rob mentioned my timing to be even worse.

3. I grip the ball with my thumb way too much. Always been a problem for me. To the point that I'm having problems with blistering between the nail and the first joint in my thumb. I have been using protective tape to help with this but it was way too hot yesterday and the tape was not sticking to my thumb caused some bad throws and just added to my frustration

I want to thank everyone for their support and comments it dose help.

Ps I will try and get you my league sheet tomorrow or Monday at the latest I don't have a scanner at home.

[Amyers]

I did practice today much better 208-188-212 the 208 was my best game missed a spare single pin spare in the tenth could have been much better. Felt good I just let it happen balance was the best it has been in quite a while slowed down some.

Question I'm thinking about asking my pro shop guy to change the surface on ball to help me get a little more traction at league. I'm currently throwing a seismic euphoria that is polished I'm thinking about asking them to take the surface down to about 3000. Do you think this would help it get a little more traction?

[Aslan]

Question I'm thinking about asking my pro shop guy to change the surface on ball to help me get a little more traction at league. I'm currently throwing a seismic euphoria that is polished I'm thinking about asking them to take the surface down to about 3000. Do you think this would help it get a little more traction?

Lemme tell you a little story that may or may not apply or have any impact on anything.

When I went from wood lanes to heavy oil synthetics for a little 11-week league last year…I got REALLY REALLY frustrated because I averaged 180 in my first week on wood and 118 in my first week on synthetics. SO….

I bought a new ball…solid coverstock…figured that would be my "golden arrow" and solve all my problems. But it didn't. So…I took my other ball…and sanded the **** out of it to give it a more aggressive surface. All that did was either make it roll too early or cause me to move further inside and miss right.

Finally, I realized that it wasn't the balls. I had to understand the balls to fix the problem. I had to understand how balls skid and roll and save up energy. And what I realized was…by taking my hybrid coverstock ball and sanding the poo out of it…all I did was keep it from being able to store up energy. All it did was cause it to roll earlier and lose energy. And it still wasn't aggressive enough to play inside. And the solid cover stock ball…THAT wasn't a good choice either because it WASNT THE BALL that was causing me to struggle. It was the WAY I threw…and how FAST I threw. At 21mph…on heavy oil…you need a LOT of rpms to get a monster hook into the pocket.

So the solution wasn't a surface change nor a new ball…I had to learn how to ROLL the ball and SLOW IT DOWN. THAT worked. Could I have gotten a heavy oil "big hook" ball and maybe gotten "some" relief??? Maybe. Maybe.

[Aslan]

Also, first bowler I've ever heard of throwing "Seismic" bowling balls. Ive only recently even seen them for sale. Never saw them in pro shops.

[Amyers]

Yeah it's an unusual piece I wanted to try something resin before spending a lot of money on something. He had this one which someone had sent him as a free trial he tried it and liked it but it didn't fit in his arsenal so he replaced it with the newer seismic euphoric and plugged and redriled for me for $30 couldn't pass that up. The ball hits really well on the right conditions the main reason why I don't really want to do something with it if they are even a little dry the next day after leagues it's a champ I love it so I kind of hate to mess with it but on the fresh it just doesn't hook. I don't throw 20 mph and I don't think I'm rev challenged I don't know if you can tell that from my videos or not. It's just something I wanted some advice on. Not looking to radically change it just not getting anything on the fresh even playing outside

[Amyers]

Practiced again today shot ok 158-198-167 about average for me felt pretty good but didn't get quite the look on my strike balls that I like but shot spares better than usual. Again felt my balance was better today was able to post some of my shots. I will try to do some more videos next week you guys can see if I've made any improvement. Have leagues Monday night looking forward to it but still a little anxious as I haven't shot well on the fresh oil yet

[Aslan]

the main reason why I don't really want to do something with it if they are even a little dry the next day after leagues it's a champ I love it so I kind of hate to mess with it but on the fresh it just doesn't hook. I don't throw 20 mph and I don't think I'm rev challenged I don't know if you can tell that from my videos or not. It's just something I wanted some advice on. Not looking to radically change it just not getting anything on the fresh even playing outside

The problem with changing surfaces is; every time a condition changes, you gotta re-change the surface. I changed the surface on my Frantic trying to get more "hook" and all it did was start rolling earlier and lose energy. I had to have resurfaced and polished.

I'm not opposed to changing a surface in a tournament or something. I have little strips of 1000 wet/dry sandpaper in my bag. I'd be more afraid that by trying to get the ball to hook more, you're going to make it hook "earlier"...not "more". As I've learned the hard way trying to figure out a solid coverstock ball....the surface changes it's entire track, it doesn't give it a more angular back end....not at my low rev rate. You want more angular of a back end...you need to look at a hybrid/pearl with an assymetric core and higher differential.

At least thats what the "numbers" say. I'm not 100% sold on the numbers lately. It's hard to say what a ball will do given that everyone throws at different rev rates and speeds. I think the numbers are less impactful than bowling ball manufacturers would like us to believe when it's all said and done.

[Amyers]

Actually this ball is a pearl but symmetrical not asymmetrical. I think I really need to just wait and add another ball. Storm comes to our lanes and does an exhibition where you can try the different balls. I have been waiting on that to add another piece. They don't charge for it at my home lanes so it seems to be a great opportunity to check out what works for you. Has anyone on here ever did this? Did this help you make a decision? I think this would help me decided what would work best for me but they won't be doing it again until fall so I hate to continue to not have what I need the rest of the summer.

[rv driver]

The problem with changing surfaces is; every time a condition changes, you gotta re-change the surface. I changed the surface on my Frantic trying to get more "hook" and all it did was start rolling earlier and lose energy. I had to have resurfaced and polished.

I'm not opposed to changing a surface in a tournament or something. I have little strips of 1000 wet/dry sandpaper in my bag. I'd be more afraid that by trying to get the ball to hook more, you're going to make it hook "earlier"...not "more". As I've learned the hard way trying to figure out a solid coverstock ball....the surface changes it's entire track, it doesn't give it a more angular back end....not at my low rev rate. You want more angular of a back end...you need to look at a hybrid/pearl with an assymetric core and higher differential.

At least thats what the "numbers" say. I'm not 100% sold on the numbers lately. It's hard to say what a ball will do given that everyone throws at different rev rates and speeds. I think the numbers are less impactful than bowling ball manufacturers would like us to believe when it's all said and done.
Granted, I'm a Noob when it comes to reactive bowling, but it seems to me that the way you get a ball to hook "more" is by the way you release it -- not by the way the cover is finished. That would only make it go longer or hook sooner, yes?

[Amyers]

Granted, I'm a Noob when it comes to reactive bowling, but it seems to me that the way you get a ball to hook "more" is by the way you release it -- not by the way the cover is finished. That would only make it go longer or hook sooner, yes?

In a lot of ways your right rev but and I'm not the expert on this most of my ex pierce is with urethane but on a wetter condition more surface would allow the ball to hook sooner creating more overall hook. The downside to this if you run out of oil the ball will burn up and you will lose energy and the ball could end up hooking less it's a fine line.

A lot of this was less complicated with urethane more surface equaled a longer continuous hook less surface smaller hook but it's more complicated than that now wha t the ball was made to do and the conditions you are bowling on have more effect on what the ball does.

If this seems complicated and convoluted it is to me too. Maybe someone on here can explain it better than me.

[Aslan]

Granted, I'm a Noob when it comes to reactive bowling, but it seems to me that the way you get a ball to hook "more" is by the way you release it -- not by the way the cover is finished. That would only make it go longer or hook sooner, yes?

Theoretically...the solid coverstock will hook sooner than the pearl. But as I stated and as you bring up...that can be completely changed based on increases/decreases in speed and rev rate. The best way to get a "picture" of it is to go to like Rotogrip or Storm websites and take a look at their little ball track comparisons. You'll see the difference when comparing balls with similar stats but different coverstocks. It's harder to compare using actualy bowlers because their releases and speeds and accuracy will vary so much.

For example, I have trouble playing inside because I can't get my solid coverstock ball to stay right of the headpin at low speeds...it wants to start hooking earlier. And I can't get the pearl coverstock ball to come back into the pocket...it goes too long and then doesn't have the revs to come back.

I alwalys think of the difference between pearl and solid like this:
- A pearl coverstock...OTB...is going to make a track that looks like a fish hook.
- A solid coverstock is going to make a track that looks more like a backwards "C" of a bow (bow/arrow).

If you throw the solid coverstock and it hooks a little too early and you go brooklyn or through the center....then you throw a pearl and it goes a little too far before coming back and leaves you with a washout...then "hypothetically" a hybrid coverstock would likely hit the pocket just right. But...it's all complicated and convoluted and there are core differences and drilling layout differences and RGs and Diffs and at the end of the day...you can take any of those balls and change your release or approach a little and probably get them into the pocket. So, like I said, I'm still unsure as to how important the ball specs really are at the end of the day. Especially when the average league bowler can't hit the same board +/- 2 boards with great consistency.

[Amyers]

Well I've got go pick my ball back up tomorrow. At leagues Monday night my pro shop guy noticed that I was having issues with my thumb. Been developing a blister right above the joint on the front right. He suggested slugging the thumb hole might help.

[Amyers]

Well I picked my ball up had it slugged and then he decided to redo it because he wanted to change the pitch went from 3/8 reverse to 1/16th forward. He also had me change from a 4 step approach to a 5 and adjusted the way I line up with my ring finger cocked more toward the pins more. The transition to the five step was easier than I expected. I believe the pitch change is going to help with my thumb problems. He thought the reason my revs have dropped is because my thumb was coming out way early. When I got it right the ball looked pretty good but I was still spraying it around more than I care for

[RobLV1]

There is no surface change that is going to make a ball hook more, only earlier. The amount that a ball hooks in terms of the angle of the direction change is determined 100% by the release of the bowler. Changing the surface will make it hook sooner or later.

[Amyers]

There is no surface change that is going to make a ball hook more, only earlier. The amount that a ball hooks in terms of the angle of the direction change is determined 100% by the release of the bowler. Changing the surface will make it hook sooner or later.

Rob you are right and as usual I could figure out something was wrong but misdiagnosed the problem. The real problem was my thumb coming out of the ball to soon.

[Aslan]

There is no surface change that is going to make a ball hook more, only earlier. The amount that a ball hooks in terms of the angle of the direction change is determined 100% by the release of the bowler. Changing the surface will make it hook sooner or later.

Thats what I SAID!! I'm so smart.

[dnhoffman]

Everything Rob and Al have said rings true. Your balance and timing are a bit off, as evidenced by your falling off of the shot after your release. It's also why you're so inconsistent in your shots - simplify the swing (don't muscle things) and work on the timing so that you're balanced at the end of your shot.

[dnhoffman]

Also, listen to Rob above just about anyone around here when it comes to coaching advice..(including me, for sure!)

[rv driver]

Everything Rob and Al have said rings true. Your balance and timing are a bit off, as evidenced by your falling off of the shot after your release. It's also why you're so inconsistent in your shots - simplify the swing (don't muscle things) and work on the timing so that you're balanced at the end of your shot.
Not disagreeing with you by any means, but here's what I've noticed:

When watching a lot of these "ball reaction videos" the manufacturers and online sales sites put out, they have their pros demonstrating how the ball will yield strike after strike. A lot of these guys, if you watch their shoulders and upper arms, especially, will, like, not even have their elbow straight on the backswing, and it APPEARS as though they are "muscling the ball" through the swing and release. You can almost see them "pushing" the ball along with their shoulder as their elbow straightens out on the downswing. what's up with that?

[RobLV1]

Not disagreeing with you by any means, but here's what I've noticed:

When watching a lot of these "ball reaction videos" the manufacturers and online sales sites put out, they have their pros demonstrating how the ball will yield strike after strike. A lot of these guys, if you watch their shoulders and upper arms, especially, will, like, not even have their elbow straight on the backswing, and it APPEARS as though they are "muscling the ball" through the swing and release. You can almost see them "pushing" the ball along with their shoulder as their elbow straightens out on the downswing. what's up with that?

Great observation! You've just defined the modern game of bowling.

[rv driver]

Great observation! You've just defined the modern game of bowling.
Yeah, but everybody says "don't muscle the swing -- just let the ball fall." It appears as though these guys are muscling the ball. Explanation, plz! Is it some kind of optical illusion? Or is "pushing" not the same thing as "muscling?"

[zdawg]

Yeah, but everybody says "don't muscle the swing -- just let the ball fall." It appears as though these guys are muscling the ball. Explanation, plz! Is it some kind of optical illusion? Or is "pushing" not the same thing as "muscling?"

I'm very curious about this too, when I first started out last year I was constantly told not to muscle the ball so I developed an extremely low ball speed partially due to the fact that I was basically using as close to zero muscling as possible.

My guess, and its really just a guess, is that some degree of muscling is ok but it depends on the point in the swing at which you are applying the muscling?

I'll wait for Rob to explain, but this is something I've been meaning to ask for a while and I keep forgetting about it

[rv driver]

I'm very curious about this too, when I first started out last year I was constantly told not to muscle the ball so I developed an extremely low ball speed partially due to the fact that I was basically using as close to zero muscling as possible.

My guess, and its really just a guess, is that some degree of muscling is ok but it depends on the point in the swing at which you are applying the muscling?

I'll wait for Rob to explain, but this is something I've been meaning to ask for a while and I keep forgetting about it
from what I've heard and observed, I believe ball speed comes from the speed of the footwork in the approach. I believe that the swing speed happens at the release & follow-through. My question is that these pros appear to be muscling the ball on the downswing. You can see it in their shoulders.

[Amyers]

I'm sure rob will come along and give a better answer than this but some muscle can be applied through the forward swing but for a lot of us this will lead to accuracy problems. It's the same as all of it your feet too fast timing problems, your back swing too high it will throw your aim off, muscle the ball your more likely to pull. Spine tilt is good spine tilt is bad keep your shoulders level drop your shoulder the truth is if it's successful for you do it but be ready for it to cause you problems somewhere along the way. Ball speed isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway. I was scared to death when I got my first reactive ball because I was a slower roller about 12 mph. I corrected a few things sped my footwork up messed some other stuff up doing it and got upto about 15 mph guess what I was throwing the ball too hard and throwing it through my break point I'm down to about 13.5 ball hits just fine. The best advice I can give you is find a medium where you rpm's and your mph's are evenly matched practice take in what works for you and once you get to that point of having a 200 average or so maybe you need this stuff to goto the next level I'm not sure yet.

[rv driver]

I'm sure rob will come along and give a better answer than this but some muscle can be applied through the forward swing but for a lot of us this will lead to accuracy problems. It's the same as all of it your feet too fast timing problems, your back swing too high it will throw your aim off, muscle the ball your more likely to pull. Spine tilt is good spine tilt is bad keep your shoulders level drop your shoulder the truth is if it's successful for you do it but be ready for it to cause you problems somewhere along the way. Ball speed isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway. I was scared to death when I got my first reactive ball because I was a slower roller about 12 mph. I corrected a few things sped my footwork up messed some other stuff up doing it and got upto about 15 mph guess what I was throwing the ball too hard and throwing it through my break point I'm down to about 13.5 ball hits just fine. The best advice I can give you is find a medium where you rpm's and your mph's are evenly matched practice take in what works for you and once you get to that point of having a 200 average or so maybe you need this stuff to goto the next level I'm not sure yet.
I know that when I used to throw the old ball slower, I'd get more hook. But it's a brand-new game now. I'm just gonna throw what feels good and adjust from there.

[RobLV1]

The pushing that you think you are seeing is really a lack of pulling. Those of us who have bowled for a long time are so used to seeing late timing used to try and create a big hook, that when we see neutral timing, it seems as though the bowler is pushing the ball. He's not. The goal of every bowler should be to create an armswing that is free from muscle. This not only creates direction and accuracy, it also creates speed. It is a misconception that faster feet create more ball speed, unless the faster feet include more steps to prevent late timing; Norm Duke is a good example. Fast feet can easily cause late timing, and late timing decreases ball speed. A free arm swing and neutral timing will give you the most ball speed that you are capable of.

[Aslan]

There was a massive debate about this back in October:

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15389-Gravity-swing-can-increase-your-scores/page2

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Aslan said things. 3 people called him "dumb" and 2 people called him "dangerous". Aslan learned about "Translational Kinetic Energy". Finally, months later, most everyone admitted that Aslan was partially correct in that all bowlers tend to add "muscle" at certain points in their swing.

Now:
Where was I WRONG...back then (I had only been bowling for like less than 2 months...so, cut a little slack)?

I didn't understand "timing" as well as I do now. I also had to get past bowling being like most other sports I've participated in. Golf is the best analogy. People will say, "Let the club do the work." And they are RIGHT...BUT....but...almost EVERY golfer applies force to their swing. You can't hit a golf ball more than 160 yards without adding force to the swing. John Daly is a perfect example of a guy that goes a little "too far" and adds a little "too much" energy to his swing. I had to LEARN that...over time...with coaching...with practice...with ups and downs (school of hard knocks) to let the ball (bowling) do more of the work.

Where was I RIGHT back then??

Muscling IS part of everyone's swing. I can GUARANTEE it! just go bowling...put the ball out in front of you (push away) and then do NOTHING....just do your 4 steps. The ONLY energy that will get added to the ball will be translational momentum as you walk....and your backswing will be tiny and the resulting shot...maybe 9-12mph??? Anyone that STILL disputes that...despite the visual evidence of nearly every bowler ever on tv/video...despite what they KNOW will happen if they try it themselves...is just not being honest. Translational energy...in 3-5 human steps...will not allow a 15lb object to get as high in the backswing as Rhino Page, Tommy Jones, Bill ALlen, etc... It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE...in other words...it violates physical laws of the universe!! Not to mention...Rob feels 90% of people will be 2-handed bowlers in 20 years...ever see a 2-handed bowler throw a ball?? Give him a muscle relaxer and see if he can throw without "muscling"! Same thing with thumbless and crankers...they MUST muscle to add those revs. It may not be adding muscle to the downswing or backswing...but it's adding muscle!!

Actually, my biggest challenge in my own game is how to get increased revs without getting increased speed. I have a tendency when trying to increase my rev rate...to increase my ball speed...which counters the increase in rev rate...but I digress....

Also...watch guys with late timing....you can SEE them accelerate their downswing! And finally...TIMING. What if...just what if...and Iceman and vdub may be confused by this since I imagine their timing to be so precise and perfect each time that this throught process elludes them...but, what if...your timing is "off" on a shot? What if you start sliding towards that foul line...and you realize "uh oh....ball not coming down yet!" Do you just come to a sliding stop and wait for gravity to do it's work? Or do you give the downswing a "little help"? 99.9999% of bowlers are going to slightly adjust how much they muscle based on their timing because actually, prefectly timing a release of a 15lb object...with the expected variation in human footwork..."help" is just about almost always necessary.

So while I am now more in agreement that "muscling is bad"...I still have seen relatively little evidence that it isn't part of everyone's game. The KEY...and I wasn't as aware of this then...is to get your timing better so you CAN allow the ball and gravity and momentum and physics to do as much of the work as possible. But muscling is absolutely necessary to every bowler's game. It allows you to speed up or slow down a backswing and forward swing (hopefully only a minor amount)....it allows you to change speeds....loft...rev rate...based on lane conditions.

[rv driver]

The pushing that you think you are seeing is really a lack of pulling. Those of us who have bowled for a long time are so used to seeing late timing used to try and create a big hook, that when we see neutral timing, it seems as though the bowler is pushing the ball. He's not. The goal of every bowler should be to create an armswing that is free from muscle. This not only creates direction and accuracy, it also creates speed. It is a misconception that faster feet create more ball speed, unless the faster feet include more steps to prevent late timing; Norm Duke is a good example. Fast feet can easily cause late timing, and late timing decreases ball speed. A free arm swing and neutral timing will give you the most ball speed that you are capable of.
Really?!?! Because I've heard so many experts say that "ball speed doesn't come from the swing, but from the feet." Not doubting you -- just scratching my head at the apparent dichotomy in delivery analysis.

So, what you're saying is that the shoulder thing is an optical illusion -- they're not really muscling the ball -- it's just what it looks it when they're not muscling the ball? It's just "good form" -- "neutral timing?"

[rv driver]

There was a massive debate about this back in October:

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15389-Gravity-swing-can-increase-your-scores/page2

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Aslan said things. 3 people called him "dumb" and 2 people called him "dangerous". Aslan learned about "Translational Kinetic Energy". Finally, months later, most everyone admitted that Aslan was partially correct in that all bowlers tend to add "muscle" at certain points in their swing.

Now:
Where was I WRONG...back then (I had only been bowling for like less than 2 months...so, cut a little slack)?

I didn't understand "timing" as well as I do now. I also had to get past bowling being like most other sports I've participated in. Golf is the best analogy. People will say, "Let the club do the work." And they are RIGHT...BUT....but...almost EVERY golfer applies force to their swing. You can't hit a golf ball more than 160 yards without adding force to the swing. John Daly is a perfect example of a guy that goes a little "too far" and adds a little "too much" energy to his swing. I had to LEARN that...over time...with coaching...with practice...with ups and downs (school of hard knocks) to let the ball (bowling) do more of the work.

Where was I RIGHT back then??

Muscling IS part of everyone's swing. I can GUARANTEE it! just go bowling...put the ball out in front of you (push away) and then do NOTHING....just do your 4 steps. The ONLY energy that will get added to the ball will be translational momentum as you walk....and your backswing will be tiny and the resulting shot...maybe 9-12mph??? Anyone that STILL disputes that...despite the visual evidence of nearly every bowler ever on tv/video...despite what they KNOW will happen if they try it themselves...is just not being honest. Translational energy...in 3-5 human steps...will not allow a 15lb object to get as high in the backswing as Rhino Page, Tommy Jones, Bill ALlen, etc... It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE...in other words...it violates physical laws of the universe!! Not to mention...Rob feels 90% of people will be 2-handed bowlers in 20 years...ever see a 2-handed bowler throw a ball?? Give him a muscle relaxer and see if he can throw without "muscling"! Same thing with thumbless and crankers...they MUST muscle to add those revs. It may not be adding muscle to the downswing or backswing...but it's adding muscle!!

Actually, my biggest challenge in my own game is how to get increased revs without getting increased speed. I have a tendency when trying to increase my rev rate...to increase my ball speed...which counters the increase in rev rate...but I digress....

Also...watch guys with late timing....you can SEE them accelerate their downswing! And finally...TIMING. What if...just what if...and Iceman and vdub may be confused by this since I imagine their timing to be so precise and perfect each time that this throught process elludes them...but, what if...your timing is "off" on a shot? What if you start sliding towards that foul line...and you realize "uh oh....ball not coming down yet!" Do you just come to a sliding stop and wait for gravity to do it's work? Or do you give the downswing a "little help"? 99.9999% of bowlers are going to slightly adjust how much they muscle based on their timing because actually, prefectly timing a release of a 15lb object...with the expected variation in human footwork..."help" is just about almost always necessary.

So while I am now more in agreement that "muscling is bad"...I still have seen relatively little evidence that it isn't part of everyone's game. The KEY...and I wasn't as aware of this then...is to get your timing better so you CAN allow the ball and gravity and momentum and physics to do as much of the work as possible. But muscling is absolutely necessary to every bowler's game. It allows you to speed up or slow down a backswing and forward swing (hopefully only a minor amount)....it allows you to change speeds....loft...rev rate...based on lane conditions.
I know as a musician that there's a difference in kinetics between relaxing and wiggling your fingers (if you're a guitar player) or arms (if you're a drummer), and tightening up and "forcing" the movements. Relaxed motion will win every time. It's called "hitting the groove." I rather suspect that bowling is much the same. You're still using muscles -- just in a "non-forced," relaxed way. I think that's the key. When I watch these pros throw, I can see the force in their arms and shoulders. What I don't see is tension. One pro told me not to "fight the weight" and suggested that I move down a # or two. Because when you "fight the weight," you tense up. There's a big difference between tensing the muscles and building up potential energy. What I'm seeing is potential energy, not tension.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Amyers, I think your game looks good. I paused on your video and your timing looks pretty good. Remember there is no wrong way to bowl. People have success with early and late timing. You are a big guy so when you are pulling the ball it may be getting outside of your body on pushaway. There is at least 1 guy giving advice that i can assure you would love to throw the ball like you. Balance at the line is very important and i see your concern for that. Just try to post each shot you make and stand there a few seconds after the ball hits the pins, i don't care if you pick the 7 off a full rack. It looks like the lanes hook quite a bit, don't be afraid to go to weaker equipment because you have plenty of ball motion to carry. Keep working out there and good luck.

[Amyers]

Amyers, I think your game looks good. I paused on your video and your timing looks pretty good. Remember there is no wrong way to bowl. People have success with early and late timing. You are a big guy so when you are pulling the ball it may be getting outside of your body on pushaway. There is at least 1 guy giving advice that i can assure you would love to throw the ball like you. Balance at the line is very important and i see your concern for that. Just try to post each shot you make and stand there a few seconds after the ball hits the pins, i don't care if you pick the 7 off a full rack. It looks like the lanes hook quite a bit, don't be afraid to go to weaker equipment because you have plenty of ball motion to carry. Keep working out there and good luck.

Thankyou fortheloveofbowling I have made some changes to my game since those videos and had some thumb problems since then also that I've been trying to get worked out. Look for a new video soon.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Have your ball driller check the pitches beacuse of the thumb trouble.

[Amyers]

Have your ball driller check the pitches beacuse of the thumb trouble.

I have been. Today made for the 4th change but I think maybe we got it right.

[Amyers]

I had to go to Louisville today so I decided to stop in at the AMF Rosebowl lanes and shot some new video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yUyQXwB16-8&feature=em-upload_owner

First off I know the balance at the end was terrible. I had been working on that and improved it a lot but then I started having issues with my thumb and it went out the door. I haven't videoed myself lately and had not noticed that had come back but I thought the timing looked better which was what I thought was causing the problem. Let me know what you think.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Amyers, It looks like you are projecting the ball to the right better now. You had mentioned before that you were having trouble with that right? Hey, your game looks pretty good and the balance looked pretty good on most shots. Your trail leg was on the floor and sweeping behind you and the timing looked pretty good. Just because you take a little step to the right after the ball passes the arrows is not a big deal. You have some good fundamentals to work with just have some confidence in your game. What ball were you throwing there? It looked like an uproar?

[fortheloveofbowling]

Hey Amyers, have you ever driven up to Cincinnati and bowled the Hoinke Classic? If you haven't you will definitely want to make a trip to the western bowl, you will love the place.

[RobLV1]

I believe that your balance problem and your thumb problem are both directly related to your timing which is very late. You are holding the ball for the first two steps before pushing it away which gets you to the line way ahead of the ball. Your push away should be timed with your second step, not your third. This late timing is causing you to pull the ball through your swing which results in your thumb getting ripped up from coming over the top of the ball, and your body falling off to the right as you attempt to muscle the ball to catch up to you at the foul line. Once you get your push away going with your second step, I think that you will see more ball speed, more accuracy, better balance, and the ability to stay behind the ball to put a much better roll on it. Good luck.

[rv driver]

I believe that your balance problem and your thumb problem are both directly related to your timing which is very late. You are holding the ball for the first two steps before pushing it away which gets you to the line way ahead of the ball. Your push away should be timed with your second step, not your third. This late timing is causing you to pull the ball through your swing which results in your thumb getting ripped up from coming over the top of the ball, and your body falling off to the right as you attempt to muscle the ball to catch up to you at the foul line. Once you get your push away going with your second step, I think that you will see more ball speed, more accuracy, better balance, and the ability to stay behind the ball to put a much better roll on it. Good luck.
A little help here; you're the coach -- not me, but I didn't see it that way. I did see him push off on the second step. He didn't start his downswing until the third step -- is that what you mean? Could you explain/clarify a little further? Thanks!

[RobLV1]

Each shot is a little bit different. For the most part, the pushaway starts about half way through the second step, rather than at the beginning. This is aggrevated by the fact that the pushaway is going upward, rather that outward, which gets the timing even later. My suggestion is to start the pushaway in tandem with the start of the second step, and push out, not up. As a way of learning to do this naturally, work on posting your shot at the line (keep your balance and hold your follow through). You may be able to kind of back into correct timing this way, by letting your instincts take over to correct the problem.

[Amyers]

Amyers, It looks like you are projecting the ball to the right better now. You had mentioned before that you were having trouble with that right? Hey, your game looks pretty good and the balance looked pretty good on most shots. Your trail leg was on the floor and sweeping behind you and the timing looked pretty good. Just because you take a little step to the right after the ball passes the arrows is not a big deal. You have some good fundamentals to work with just have some confidence in your game. What ball were you throwing there? It looked like an uproar?

I feel better with it I changed over to the 5 step approach to help with the timing of the delivery and had got that better. I am having much better luck I'm down to only one or two pulls a game two the left it's a work in progress.

The ball is a Seismic Euphoria it's a great piece for lower oil conditions and the lanes were a little dry.

My scoring has improved when the thumbs not acting up. I'm throwing in the 170-210 range pretty consistently and i think that will improve some more once I add the spare ball. Hopefully next week

[Amyers]

Hey Amyers, have you ever driven up to Cincinnati and bowled the Hoinke Classic? If you haven't you will definitely want to make a trip to the western bowl, you will love the place.

I get to Cincinnati a couple of times a year but I haven't ever bowled there I will try to check it out next time I'm there

[Amyers]

I believe that your balance problem and your thumb problem are both directly related to your timing which is very late. You are holding the ball for the first two steps before pushing it away which gets you to the line way ahead of the ball. Your push away should be timed with your second step, not your third. This late timing is causing you to pull the ball through your swing which results in your thumb getting ripped up from coming over the top of the ball, and your body falling off to the right as you attempt to muscle the ball to catch up to you at the foul line. Once you get your push away going with your second step, I think that you will see more ball speed, more accuracy, better balance, and the ability to stay behind the ball to put a much better roll on it. Good luck.

I will keep working on it the ball feels like it arriving about the end of my slide which is correct but I guess I forcing it to do that by muscling it. Is that what your saying correct?

[Bunny]

I believe that your balance problem and your thumb problem are both directly related to your timing which is very late. You are holding the ball for the first two steps before pushing it away which gets you to the line way ahead of the ball. Your push away should be timed with your second step, not your third. This late timing is causing you to pull the ball through your swing which results in your thumb getting ripped up from coming over the top of the ball, and your body falling off to the right as you attempt to muscle the ball to catch up to you at the foul line. Once you get your push away going with your second step, I think that you will see more ball speed, more accuracy, better balance, and the ability to stay behind the ball to put a much better roll on it. Good luck.



I have 5 step with late timing too and have been working on a "push out." I've noticed that at the very least I'm conscience of getting my ball out with the second step which seems to be equating to a more consistent swing and higher scores.

BTW-Aslan's game is looking much improved since his lesson with you. Nice work, Coach!!

[fortheloveofbowling]

Amyers. rob has some good points and he is correct about the thumb issues from possibly getting around it to much. Keep working on it.

[rv driver]

I wonder if, instead of thinking "push out," think, "out and down. I heard a coach on a Youtube video say that; it seems as though that would get the ball into the backswing a little sooner. That way, it seems like you wouldn't have to muscle the ball through the swing. What do you think about that, Rob?

[RobLV1]

I will keep working on it the ball feels like it arriving about the end of my slide which is correct but I guess I forcing it to do that by muscling it. Is that what your saying correct?

Exactly. When the ball is behind you as you approach the foul line, the natural inclination is to bring the right shoulder forward in an effort to catch the ball up to your feet. This causes muscling, coming over the top, lack of ball speed, etc., etc., etc.

When you get to the point that your feet and the ball arrive at the foul line together, you will be absolutely amazed at how effortless bowling can be.

[RobLV1]

I wonder if, instead of thinking "push out," think, "out and down. I heard a coach on a Youtube video say that; it seems as though that would get the ball into the backswing a little sooner. That way, it seems like you wouldn't have to muscle the ball through the swing. What do you think about that, Rob?

Historically we were told to "set the ball on the coffee table" as a way of getting us to push out and down. I think it's still a pretty good metaphor.

[Amyers]

Historically we were told to "set the ball on the coffee table" as a way of getting us to push out and down. I think it's still a pretty good metaphor.

I will continue to work on this is the move up a real big deal? The upward movement I have now is a lot less than before I could see it in vids but it seemed pretty small. That seems like my issue I fix one thing and mess up two others but i guess everyone has that. I'm wondering if I try starting the ball when I take that slide step in the beginning if I would balance the lateness back out?

[RobLV1]

I will continue to work on this is the move up a real big deal? The upward movement I have now is a lot less than before I could see it in vids but it seemed pretty small. That seems like my issue I fix one thing and mess up two others but i guess everyone has that. I'm wondering if I try starting the ball when I take that slide step in the beginning if I would balance the lateness back out?

Yes, the movement up is a big deal. Please don't try to push out early to keep the upward push. They will not balance out (a perfect example of two wrongs not making a right). Get rid of the upward push and push on the second step. When you push up, it gets muscle into the swing early, and it rarely goes away.

[rv driver]

Exactly. When the ball is behind you as you approach the foul line, the natural inclination is to bring the right shoulder forward in an effort to catch the ball up to your feet. This causes muscling, coming over the top, lack of ball speed, etc., etc., etc.

When you get to the point that your feet and the ball arrive at the foul line together, you will be absolutely amazed at how effortless bowling can be.
I just a couple of days ago heard the concept that you don't push your throwing shoulder forward. I've practiced that, and was amazed (as you said) at how different (and more efficient) the release became by not trying to muscle the ball. I wonder why I never heard that before???

[rv driver]

Historically we were told to "set the ball on the coffee table" as a way of getting us to push out and down. I think it's still a pretty good metaphor.
OK. I thought I was on target with that. I like the coffee table metaphor. Now: as a corollary to that, should "setting the ball on the table" move seamlessly into the backswing, or should there be a hesitation? Seems like It's really more like one continuous movement for me...

[rv driver]

Yes, the movement up is a big deal. Please don't try to push out early to keep the upward push. They will not balance out (a perfect example of two wrongs not making a right). Get rid of the upward push and push on the second step. When you push up, it gets muscle into the swing early, and it rarely goes away.
yeah. I heard someone say that the "push" is really simply letting the ball drop into the swing. Although it almost seems like that would really just start the downswing too early.

[bowl1820]

yeah. I heard someone say that the "push" is really simply letting the ball drop into the swing. Although it almost seems like that would really just start the downswing too early.

While The "ball falling/dropping into the swing" can be talking about part of the pushaway, they may also be referring to the "hinge" method.

The Hinge is basically where you move the ball into the swing by hinging around the elbow and keeping the elbow close to the body. Instead of using the classic pushaway

Take a look at Joe Slowinski's article "Hinge It To A Better Physical Game "

Click here for "Hinge It To A Better Physical Game" (http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb09.pdf)

To save to your desktop right click and do "save link as"

Here's a illustration of a world-class hinge, watch Tommy Jones in the beginning of his Weber Cup Match against Osku Palermaa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5kDnI3Tq1Y

[Amyers]

Yes, the movement up is a big deal. Please don't try to push out early to keep the upward push. They will not balance out (a perfect example of two wrongs not making a right). Get rid of the upward push and push on the second step. When you push up, it gets muscle into the swing early, and it rarely goes away.

Okay I'll give it a try in the next practice session thanks Rob