Destroying the oil on league night/day!!!!

[MICHAEL]

I know I am very new to bowling, but yesterday there were people bowing on the League bowling lanes, just prior to league starting. some had bowled a couple games!

I had no idea that at some establishments they allow people to bowl on the FRESH oil laid down for league!!! Destroying the oil, before you even start league!!!!!

I know at the AMF where I bowled they never let people practice on lanes with fresh league oil. THIS BLEW ME AWAY!! Is this something that happens at other bowling establishments around the country?????

At the AMF that recently closed its doors, they always applied the OIL, just minutes before we started to bowl! They didn't allow any balls thrown until warm up for THAT particular league!

[Mike White]

Interesting how is just a couple of games they could "Destroy" the lanes, but when I comment how the lanes had been abused by moonlight bowling the night before, and not re-oiled, that was considered making an excuse.

Stop and think about it for a moment.

What make you entitled to fresh oil any more than Saturday noon open bowling?

It sure can't be the lineage rate.

[vdubtx]

The house I bowl in on Tuesdays oils a couple hours before league and they let anyone bowl on them before our league starts at 6pm. Have even been there when other people in our league are bowling on the pair we are supposed to be bowling on. Fortunately none of the bowlers were bowling on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league, that would be ultimate douchery. We actually had that happen before, so I make sure and bring it up in meetings to begin seasons to make it a rule.

OH, and ICEMAN, you aren't a new bowler any more. You can't keep dragging that "excuse" into the conversation any longer. :D ;) :cool:

[MICHAEL]

The house I bowl in on Tuesdays oils a couple hours before league and they let anyone bowl on them before our league starts at 6pm. Have even been there when other people in our league are bowling on the pair we are supposed to be bowling on. Fortunately none of the bowlers were bowling on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league, that would be ultimate douchery. We actually had that happen before, so I make sure and bring it up in meetings to begin seasons to make it a rule.

OH, and ICEMAN, you aren't a new bowler any more. You can't keep dragging that "excuse" into the conversation any longer. :D ;) :cool:

WHEN YOU consider that I just got into bowling, and my record shows it 3 years now,,,, that's FRICKEN NEW...LOL 62,,,,, and now 65!!! I am FRICKEN NEW!!

I guess we were spoiled at our lanes..... I can't imagine a PBA tournament starting out with lanes that house bowlers had already DESTROYED! (:)

ONE thing we ALWAYS had at our lanes was oil applied minutes before we started! AS GOD intended it to BE!

[MICHAEL]

Interesting how is just a couple of games they could "Destroy" the lanes, but when I comment how the lanes had been abused by moonlight bowling the night before, and not re-oiled, that was considered making an excuse.

Stop and think about it for a moment.

What make you entitled to fresh oil any more than Saturday noon open bowling?

It sure can't be the lineage rate.

That's different MIKE!! Moonlight bowling does very little damage to oil, its a scientific fact backed by the academy of Science!!

Ok MIKE I will stop and think,,,, tic,,,tic,,,, tic,,,,,,,tic,,,, OK I did mike! I am entitled because I AM ICEMAN!!! League is league, recreational bowling is RECREATIONAL bowling, using house balls ect ect... Oil to MOST Saturday open bowling is not IMPORTANT..... most don't know there is even oil on the lanes ..... surly you know that MIKE!!!!

[vdubtx]

WHEN YOU consider that I just got into bowling, and my record shows it 3 years now,,,, that's FRICKEN NEW...LOL

I guess you consider a 3 year old a newborn? Just sayin'. :D :p

[Mike White]

The house I bowl in on Tuesdays oils a couple hours before league and they let anyone bowl on them before our league starts at 6pm. Have even been there when other people in our league are bowling on the pair we are supposed to be bowling on. Fortunately none of the bowlers were bowling on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league, that would be ultimate douchery. We actually had that happen before, so I make sure and bring it up in meetings to begin seasons to make it a rule.

OH, and ICEMAN, you aren't a new bowler any more. You can't keep dragging that "excuse" into the conversation any longer. :D ;) :cool:

USBC won't back you up on making a rule about not bowling on the lane before league.

They figure a bowling alley's business is not the USBC's business.

I did have an instance years ago where I bowled in both a 6pm and 9pm league.

The 6pm league used lanes 1 thru 20, and the 9 pm used 19 thru 32.

It wasn't until the final week in both leagues that I ended up on the same pair for both.

For some reason, the 6pm decided to have their position round start at 20 and go down to 1, and since my team was in 2nd, I ended up on 19 & 20.

The 9pm had a normal position round order, and my team was in 1st, so again, I ended up on 19 & 20.

Back then, balls didn't remove anywhere near as much oil as current, so 9 pm was still playable after the 6pm 5 man/team league.

[vdubtx]

I didn't care if USBC would back up the rule or not, just letting the old farts that wanted practice and to burn their own line on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league be known that others knew what they were doing. They literally tried to use it as a benefit to them so they knew going into league play they could find a line immediately. This particular team doesn't bowl that league any longer.

I think on my Tuesday league, the teams that actually bowled on pairs before league(not the pair they were scheduled to bowl) would purposely bowl the lanes to deplete some head oil to give other teams trouble when they bowled the league set.

I see this behavior among the older bowlers(60+) in the leagues.

[Amyers]

I didn't care if USBC would back up the rule or not, just letting the old farts that wanted practice and to burn their own line on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league be known that others knew what they were doing. They literally tried to use it as a benefit to them so they knew going into league play they could find a line immediately. This particular team doesn't bowl that league any longer.

I think on my Tuesday league, the teams that actually bowled on pairs before league(not the pair they were scheduled to bowl) would purposely bowl the lanes to deplete some head oil to give other teams trouble when they bowled the league set.

I see this behavior among the older bowlers(60+) in the leagues.

Wow what some people will go too. I don't really mind if someone would bowl ahead of us but they generally put the oil down about 30 min before start time so its not usually an issue. But I would have issues with someone bowling on their lanes before the start.

[classygranny]

On my evening league, they do well to attempt no bowling after oiling on league lanes, but they don't guarantee it. Also, the league rules state that you cannot bowl on the same lanes you are scheduled to bowl league on for the hour prior to start time. My morning league gets fresh, unused oil, but it is done after closing the night before, and sometimes heat, humidity and fans can play as much havoc on the lanes as open bowling.

Some houses around here will guarantee the league "fresh oil across lanes", but the lineage fees are more than the normal, unguaranteed leagues. About a $1 a game, if I remember correctly.

[circlecity]

My wednesday league starts at 6:30 and the house stops all open bowling at 5:30 so they can oil all the lanes for us.

[Mike White]

That's different MIKE!! Moonlight bowling does very little damage to oil, its a scientific fact backed by the academy of Science!!

Ok MIKE I will stop and think,,,, tic,,,tic,,,, tic,,,,,,,tic,,,, OK I did mike! I am entitled because I AM ICEMAN!!! League is league, recreational bowling is RECREATIONAL bowling, using house balls ect ect... Oil to MOST Saturday open bowling is not IMPORTANT..... most don't know there is even oil on the lanes ..... surly you know that MIKE!!!!

Ok, I can accept that you're new. But a newbie calling something a fact doesn't make it a fact.

Open bowling (moonlight) using mainly house balls, carries a lot of oil from the heads to the back ends.

If a good bowler uses plastic or urethane the carry down can be useful since it's aimed at the head pin.

When it's moonlight bowlers, the carry down is all across the lane, and can cause the lane to be unplayable.

[Amyers]

Ok, I can accept that you're new. But a newbie calling something a fact doesn't make it a fact.

Open bowling (moonlight) using mainly house balls, carries a lot of oil from the heads to the back ends.

If a good bowler uses plastic or urethane the carry down can be useful since it's aimed at the head pin.

When it's moonlight bowlers, the carry down is all across the lane, and can cause the lane to be unplayable.

Did Mike miss the joke part of this or is his sense of humor that bad?

[RobLV1]

There are two sides to every coin, and this issue is no different. While it is preferable not to have any open play on fresh oil prior to leagues, it is also preferable to have lanes that were oiled a couple of hours before league starts. When the oil is first applied it spreads for a while which makes it very volitile. As long as the open play is just a game or two with bowlers who are not just using plastic balls, I think I'd prefer letting the oil set up for a couple of hours as opposed to being applied immediately before league starts.

[bowl1820]

so I make sure and bring it up in meetings to begin seasons to make it a rule.


USBC won't back you up on making a rule about not bowling on the lane before league.
They figure a bowling alley's business is not the USBC's business.

Yes As far as the house is concerned, a league can't make a rule stopping open bowling.

Unless a league has a contract with the house, stating no one can bowl on the lanes once they are dressed for league bowling. The house can put open bowler's where ever they want,

I've bowled on leagues in the past that have had contract's like that. You don't really see those in house leagues (Leagues started by the house, but they can).

I've seen contract's where no one could bowl on the lanes once dressed and ones where only members of that league could.

Now leagues can have their own rules regarding bowling on the lanes that league members must follow. The most common is you can't bowl on the lanes your going to bowl on that night a hour before start of league.

But these don't apply to ordinary open bowler's. Now most house's are good for the most part about not putting people on dressed lanes as a courtesy to the league.

I understand how bowlers feel about bowling on used lanes. But as long as the two teams are bowling on the same pair, it doesn't matter if they are used or not or what the conditions on the other lanes are.

You adjust to what your playing on.

[MICHAEL]

I didn't care if USBC would back up the rule or not, just letting the old farts that wanted practice and to burn their own line on the pair they were supposed to bowl on in league be known that others knew what they were doing. They literally tried to use it as a benefit to them so they knew going into league play they could find a line immediately. This particular team doesn't bowl that league any longer.

I think on my Tuesday league, the teams that actually bowled on pairs before league(not the pair they were scheduled to bowl) would purposely bowl the lanes to deplete some head oil to give other teams trouble when they bowled the league set.

I see this behavior among the older bowlers(60+) in the leagues.


I don't believe it vdubtx!!! Where do you bowl,,,,, That doesn't happen here, or at least it didn't at the AMF that Iceman bowled! I guess I will just have to ADJUST TO crappie bowling establishments that DON"T CARE!!!

One thing about the lanes that closed their doors, they were GREAT TO LEAGUE BOWLERS, and gave use fresh oil just before bowling, and that goes for all the leagues. They would NOT LET you bowl on the fresh league oil, but always had open lanes that could be used to warm up if you liked.

Me being ICEMAN,,, I didn't even like the sound of WARM UP!!!!! GRRRRRR!!!!

[MICHAEL]

On my evening league, they do well to attempt no bowling after oiling on league lanes, but they don't guarantee it. Also, the league rules state that you cannot bowl on the same lanes you are scheduled to bowl league on for the hour prior to start time. My morning league gets fresh, unused oil, but it is done after closing the night before, and sometimes heat, humidity and fans can play as much havoc on the lanes as open bowling.

Some houses around here will guarantee the league "fresh oil across lanes", but the lineage fees are more than the normal, unguaranteed leagues. About a $1 a game, if I remember correctly.

It was common at Both AMF's here that I bowl at.,,, one a 48 lane the other I believe 30 something,,,, that they applied the oil JUST PRIOR TO league

Gladstone,,, my afternoon league on Wednesday has all 24 lanes full for our league, so non left for open bowling, or warming up,,, HATE THAT fraise (iceman). Maybe that's why they allow it? My Friday afternoon league uses only 12 of the lanes, and maybe they don't allow it on those lanes. I will ask tomorrow about that!

REGARDLESS, it sucks, and COULD very easily be used by another team to burn of THAT OIL that most modern day balls NEED lots of!!

This IS A FIRST FOR ME! And I am mad as hell .... and I am not going to take it anymore!!! (what movie was this line borrowed from) LOL

[MICHAEL]

Wow what some people will go too. I don't really mind if someone would bowl ahead of us but they generally put the oil down about 30 min before start time so its not usually an issue. But I would have issues with someone bowling on their lanes before the start.

I AGREE AMYERS!!! It's NOT RIGHT! A RULE NEEDS to be made to STOP this injustice to league bowling! It can be used to CHEAT!!! Iceman does not like cheaters!! What lanes do you bowl at Amyers?? I just thought all bowling establishments did the same as mine did!

They oiled just before league, and did not allow bowlers to TOUCH it until warm ups and league! WOW,,,, HOLY ICE CYCLES!!!

[Mike White]

One thing about the lanes that closed their doors, they were GREAT TO LEAGUE BOWLERS, and gave use fresh oil just before bowling, and that goes for all the leagues. They would NOT LET you bowl on the fresh league oil, but always had open lanes that could be used to warm up if you liked.

Me being ICEMAN,,, I didn't even like the sound of WARM UP!!!!! GRRRRRR!!!!


If they were so good to league bowlers, what was the reason they had to close?

[zdawg]

I guess you consider a 3 year old a newborn? Just sayin'. :D :p

Well, I guess at 8 months in and bowling in a PBA experience SCRATCH league I'm an infant by Iceman's description???LOL In fairness I was told the sport league would be handicapped but when I found out it was scratch I liked it even more....:cool:

[MICHAEL]

If they were so good to league bowlers, what was the reason they had to close?

Some times MIKE, being too good,,,,,,, is,,,,, just not enough! Maybe it was ME!! They had to keep the tempature down to around 31 degrees for me,,, many candy asked bowlers complained that their balls were too cold,,, bla,,bla,,,, ba...!! You know where I am coming from...!

[MICHAEL]

Well, I guess at 8 months in and bowling in a PBA experience SCRATCH league I'm an infant by Iceman's description???LOL In fairness I was told the sport league would be handicapped but when I found out it was scratch I liked it even more....:cool:

I agree zdawg!! YOUR a REAL MAN!! Scratch is Cool, its the REAL DEAL,,, HELLO!!!!! I would bowl NOTHING but scratch if we had them around here! VERY HARD TO FIND! Everyone wants to bowl delusional bowling! Handicap,,, bowing should not be a special Olympics Sport.
Man ON Man,,, Woman on Woman,,, LEVEL Equal playing field!! If you don't like getting beat, GET BETTER!! da!!! LOL

Let me go on record here and now, Iceman doesn't like handicap bowling! I would rather get beat EACH and EVERY WEEK, then to have pins given to me!! Because I know that at some time and place I am going to Kick that bowling gods ask every now and then! TRUE GLORY and Victory!

[zdawg]

I agree zdawg!! YOUR a REAL MAN!! Scratch is Cool, its the REAL DEAL,,, HELLO!!!!! !

Thanks Mr Ice...may I say, you're a real man too! I love my sport league, in fact I'd love it if I never had to bowl on THS again, however until I make it to the PBA tour I don't think that's an option LOL

[Mike White]

Some times MIKE, being too good,,,,,,, is,,,,, just not enough! Maybe it was ME!! They had to keep the tempature down to around 31 degrees for me,,, many candy asked bowlers complained that their balls were too cold,,, bla,,bla,,,, ba...!! You know where I am coming from...!


This establishment has been around for many years, and Bowlmore had put some money into to it, but not as much as some of the other AMF's in the area. Reason for closing, not making profit, and low league numbers...

Ok, if the cold caused the low league numbers, it seems a bit selfish on someone's part.

[rv driver]

Thanks Mr Ice...may I say, you're a real man too! I love my sport league, in fact I'd love it if I never had to bowl on THS again, however until I make it to the PBA tour I don't think that's an option LOL

I agree zdawg!! YOUR a REAL MAN!! I would rather get beat EACH and EVERY WEEK, then to have pins given to me!!
Now that the Mensch Fest is over, let's look at handicapping another way: In horse racing, they make the faster, stronger horses carry a certain amount of weight in order to level the field and equalize chances for winning. Since pins can't be subtracted from the really good players, based upon their averages, pins are given to the players with lower averages. That way, the great players are challenged to use their talent to knock down more pins and overcome the "handicap" (which has nothing, BTW, to do with disability; it comes from a contraction of the term hand-in-cap, referring to bets being placed in a cap when contests are wagered upon). In sports, a "sure thing" isn't desirable for the entertainment value (which is what sports are all about). It gets boring watching the same guy win all the time because he's 6'4", can bench press a Cadillac, and whose schedule allows him to bowl 8 days a week. So pins are given to the guy who's 5'6", and only gets to bowl once or twice a week. Makes the game more entertaining and gives other guys/teams a fighting chance at the trophy. The true athlete will look at the handicap as sort of a badge of honor.

[edit]: I know that I, as an aging bowler whose body is past prime, appreciate being given a fair shot against a 23 year old triathlete. it allows me to pit my bowling prowess against that of another person, taking physical strength out of the equation.

[Amyers]

I AGREE AMYERS!!! It's NOT RIGHT! A RULE NEEDS to be made to STOP this injustice to league bowling! It can be used to CHEAT!!! Iceman does not like cheaters!! What lanes do you bowl at Amyers?? I just thought all bowling establishments did the same as mine did!

They oiled just before league, and did not allow bowlers to TOUCH it until warm ups and league! WOW,,,, HOLY ICE CYCLES!!!

I bowl at Dunbar Lanes in Dunbar WV its and old place but I kind of grew up in there so I stay. The alley was built in 1905 we still have the original wood lanes but they aren't like some of the wood you hear about on here they have been well maintained. We only have 12 lanes so its a intimate atmosphere. We have newer and bigger but I stay for the memories even though the place has some issues.

[Hampe]

Makes the game more entertaining and gives other guys/teams a fighting chance at the trophy. The true athlete will look at the handicap as sort of a badge of honor.That's the approach that I usually take when it comes to handicap, especially for leagues. I don't think it's much fun bowling slightly below my average but still kicking the crap out of a team that averages 140.

[MICHAEL]

That's the approach that I usually take when it comes to handicap, especially for leagues. I don't think it's much fun bowling slightly below my average but still kicking the crap out of a team that averages 140.

BOWLING is not about Having FUN????? It's about play a game that frustrates, confuses, and gives you lots of 10 pins, and sometimes 7pins! PEOPLE WAKE UP,,,, I have seen on the Huge Winter league, with LOTS OF PRIZE MONEY and almost a FULL house at the 48 lane AMF, (((((SAND BAGGING USED AS AN ART FORM!)))))

Every ONCE IN A WHILE the LORD says,,,, ENOUGH!!! Then you will have your 300's, and 800's good bowling Ladies and gentlemen!! Don't ask for hand out,,, its very UN-Republican!!! EARN what you Reap!! Handicap bowling leads you down the Wrong Path,,, the path of delusional feeling of Grander!!!

definition of a Sand Bagger!

Sand Bagging the Good Bowler, WHO will Cheat, steal, and rob you of you of YOUR JUST VICTORY using means that Lucifer HIMSELF Created!!!
There is a reason Mr HOT SHOT is where he is!!

definition of a Handicap bowler

Someone that Has no pride, and is a TAKER!!! A person that will jump up and down after a handicap victory, not considering the fact that he/she was actually taken to the cleaners, and in REALITY loss by over Godzilla amounts of pins....

Brothers and Sisters, Join Iceman and raise up you voices in protest to REMOVE handicap Bowling, as I call it Delusional Bowling.

I thought America was all about a Fair Playing Field!! What you earn, is what you get! May the BEST MAN/WOMAN WIN? Don't give me PIN's, make me learn to bowl BETTER!

Give me scratch Bowling, or Give me a (waffle cone with Rocky Road and whip-cream!!)!

[rv driver]

BOWLING is not about Having FUN????? It's about play a game that frustrates, confuses, and gives you lots of 10 pins, and sometimes 7pins! PEOPLE WAKE UP,,,, I have seen on the Huge Winter league, with LOTS OF PRIZE MONEY and almost a FULL house at the 48 lane AMF, (((((SAND BAGGING USED AS AN ART FORM!)))))

Every ONCE IN A WHILE the LORD says,,,, ENOUGH!!! Then you will have your 300's, and 800's good bowling Ladies and gentlemen!! Don't ask for hand out,,, its very UN-Republican!!! EARN what you Reap!! Handicap bowling leads you down the Wrong Path,,, the path of delusional feeling of Grander!!!

definition of a Sand Bagger!

Sand Bagging the Good Bowler, WHO will Cheat, steal, and rob you of you of YOUR JUST VICTORY using means that Lucifer HIMSELF Created!!!
There is a reason Mr HOT SHOT is where he is!!

definition of a Handicap bowler

Someone that Has no pride, and is a TAKER!!! A person that will jump up and down after a handicap victory, not considering the fact that he/she was actually taken to the cleaners, and in REALITY loss by over Godzilla amounts of pins....

Brothers and Sisters, Join Iceman and raise up you voices in protest to REMOVE handicap Bowling, as I call it Delusional Bowling.

I thought America was all about a Fair Playing Field!! What you earn, is what you get! May the BEST MAN/WOMAN WIN? Don't give me PIN's, make me learn to bowl BETTER!

Give me scratch Bowling, or Give me a (waffle cone with Rocky Road and whip-cream!!)!
Soooo... this is an ego thing, then? Handicap creates fairness across the board, leveling the field between the bronzed gods and the mere mortals. it's no fun watching the gods win night after night after night. AND it's no fun -- as Hampe said -- kicking a** every night against people who aren't as good as you are. Only a level playing field creates enjoyable competition.

[Amyers]

Scratch leagues have their place but handicapped leagues are designed to level out the playing field between more experienced and more talented bowlers and newer and less talented bowlers. The more talented bowlers still have the advantage if you are averaging over 190 or 200 pins the amount that your better than others isn't handicapped so if you average 220 you still have a 20 some pin advantage over someone else as long as you bowl your average you will most games. Don't be angry at a lesser bowler for your inconsistency. I don't understand what the issue is here. Now sandbagging is a different discussion especially in short summer leagues. In winter leagues it balances out but in summer I do believe you can gain a large advantage But also most of us bowling summer leagues are there to have fun and work on our games I don't see to many serious summer leagues out there. Its a period where I try new things and take time to work on things I might not in my more serious winter bowling.

[Amyers]

Soooo... this is an ego thing, then? Handicap creates fairness across the board, leveling the field between the bronzed gods and the mere mortals. it's no fun watching the gods win night after night after night. AND it's no fun -- as Hampe said -- kicking a** every night against people who aren't as good as you are. Only a level playing field creates enjoyable competition.

I agree with this. I don't want to kick the crap out of some newbie that averages 80 pins a game and I don't want to have my teeth kicked in by our alleys best every night either with out it at least being a competition. Some times its hard to remember that 170 game for the guy that averages 120 is just as special as the 250 game is for me (average 160 or so) or the 280 or 300 game for the guy that averages 220. Its all the same.

[fsbjcm]

If there were no handicap leagues, bowling leagues would die. Because no new bowler is gonna go pay money to get the crap kicked out of him every week until he learns to bowl 200+, which will probably take a year or two. I know I wouldn't. I like competition, it's why I play sports, and I fully expect to be scratch in the next year or so, but right now, while I'm still learning, I still want to have a chance to win provided I bowl better than my average. Scratch leagues are for experienced bowlers, handicap leagues are for everyone. Can't just say "screw the new guys, if he can't bowl 200 out of the gate he'll just have to lose every week until he can!". New guys are the future of bowling!

[RobLV1]

Unbeknownst to most bowlers, handicap does not bring true equity to bowling. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a few years ago the USBC did a study of all of the results of all of the handicap leagues in the country. They concluded that for lower average bowlers to actually be able to compete with high average bowlers, handicaps would have to be based on 115% of the high league average. Look at it like this: if the handicap is based on 90% of 220, and the 220 bowler bowls his average, his handicap score is 220. If a 160 bowler in the same league bowls his average, his score is 160 + 54 = 214. The high average bowler wins. The only way that the lower average bowler has the advantage in a handicap league is if he/she is working so hard to improve that the average goes up before the handicap goes down. Think about this next time before you complain about how many pins you have to give away.

[bowl1820]

Unbeknownst to most bowlers, handicap does not bring true equity to bowling. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a few years ago the USBC did a study of all of the results of all of the handicap leagues in the country. They concluded that for lower average bowlers to actually be able to compete with high average bowlers, handicaps would have to be based on 115% of the high league average. Look at it like this: if the handicap is based on 90% of 220, and the 220 bowler bowls his average, his handicap score is 220. If a 160 bowler in the same league bowls his average, his score is 160 + 54 = 214. The high average bowler wins. The only way that the lower average bowler has the advantage in a handicap league is if he/she is working so hard to improve that the average goes up before the handicap goes down. Think about this next time before you complain about how many pins you have to give away.

It's 116%

Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/THEFACTSABOUTHANDICAPS.pdf)

Excerpt:

It seems to me that the ultimate handicap allowance would be 100% and at that percent
every team should have a 50-50 chance of winning.
FACT: Even at 100% handicap, as the chart shows, the higher average teams or bowlers still
have a decided edge. An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a
116% handicap was used.

[MICHAEL]

Unbeknownst to most bowlers, handicap does not bring true equity to bowling. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a few years ago the USBC did a study of all of the results of all of the handicap leagues in the country. They concluded that for lower average bowlers to actually be able to compete with high average bowlers, handicaps would have to be based on 115% of the high league average. Look at it like this: if the handicap is based on 90% of 220, and the 220 bowler bowls his average, his handicap score is 220. If a 160 bowler in the same league bowls his average, his score is 160 + 54 = 214. The high average bowler wins. The only way that the lower average bowler has the advantage in a handicap league is if he/she is working so hard to improve that the average goes up before the handicap goes down. Think about this next time before you complain about how many pins you have to give away.

thanks for the information Rob! Does it make Iceaman happier???? NO! All that data does not account for the PHD's out there on Big leagues that Sand Bag!! I have seen it,,,,, ICEMAN DOES NOT LIE!!

Again, I am not looking for a level playing field,,,, BRING THEM ON, if I get the shirt beat out of me,,,, so be it! Makes me work that much harder to get better! Every body in this country wants (GIVE ME"S),,,,, LEVEL PLAYING Field's! What's UP with THIS???

Does a person really feel like they won when given pins???? My God,,,,, AM I wEIRd? why doesn't it bother me to go up against guys like Aslan, and Mike White??? I fear nothing,,,,, Don't want a handicap,,,, handicap is for people that have a disability, that I somewhat understand! As long as it's verified by a REAL doctor!!! There are FAKE doctors out there that will write up a disability for a Sand Bagging Low LIFE Bowler!

Reap what you bowl,,,, be REAL,,,, and work hard to get better! That's The Iceman WAY!!! Getting beat in life is only a temporary thing!

This Country has way too many handouts as it is,,,,,, its time to GET REAL IN BOWLING!! It is what it IS!! LIVE WITH IT!!

God Bless America, and God Bless Bowling! Amen!

[austin]

Iceman You are a real idiot.

[RobLV1]

Iceman: Come on out to Vegas and bring it on!

[vdubtx]

Iceman: Come on out to Vegas and bring it on!

LOL, even closer, come on out to Dallas and get a real a$$ whoopin'. :cool:

[MICHAEL]

I never said that I was THE BEST DAMN bowler in the country! LOL,,,,, Wow,,,, everyone wants a piece of me!! LOL You might just find me a hard Cube to BEAT,,,, ON A GIVEN DAY! If I am a nut, like one of you said,, (it takes one to know one lol)!! That just might be what YOU are, so what am I??) love pee wee!! LOL

Call me old School, I just think bowling like the pros is the REAL DEAL! Scratch!

Handicap bowling is delusional, giving an inferior bowler the sense that he is better then a person he beat, but was given Godzilla amounts of pins!

I accept all your challenges,,,, Not that I think I WILL BEAT ANY OF YOU, but because I can beat any of you on a given day! I am good enough to do that, FOR A FACT! Take it to the BANK!!

I am not a nut that easy to crack,,, as EACH AND EVERYONE of you will find out!!

Anytime ANY of you want to come to Kansas City, let me know,,, I will pick you up at the airport, or train station!

SCRATCH Bowling is REAL,,,,, the rest is just fun! PEACE!!

[MICHAEL]

Iceman You are a real idiot.

REALLY,,, Austin?? LOL I can't ride my Goldwing to your country,,,, but an idiot is not what I am! That really hurt!! Thanks for the insight, you really know how to hit a guy Down Under! (you do live in Australia right) Get it??? down under,,,, forget it! (:)

[MICHAEL]

Its getting out of hand, esp with the guy from Australia calling me ICEMAN a bad name! Not even an AMERICAN!!
Remember, America has Drones!! LOL...... LIGHTEN UP GUY!

[MICHAEL]

Iceman: Come on out to Vegas and bring it on!

I will Rob,,, I think it would be a BLAST!! Maybe toward the end of this summer.... would be a fun ride on the bike!! Would be great to meet you bud!! I do enjoy your coaching thoughts and ideas!

OK THIS IS THE REAL last time I am coming back to this thread!!

[austin]

Yeah I got the down under joke. Like I've never heard that before.

By your reasoning everyone should have no handicap. Regardless of age or ability or injury or any of these worthwhile reasons. While I am happy to bowl scratch leagues, it is just ludicrous to say that no one should be able to have handicaps. By your statements everyone should bowl scratch, forget the fact that age can affect some people, injuries past or present others etc. Or how about the younger bowlers who just don't have the power to throw the big numbers. If these people had no handicap it would be so demoralising for most of them I doubt any of them would keep coming back week after week. While I support and bowl in scratch events, handicaps are in place now and should be, for very good and valid reasons.

[MICHAEL]

Yeah I got the down under joke. Like I've never heard that before.

By your reasoning everyone should have no handicap. Regardless of age or ability or injury or any of these worthwhile reasons. While I am happy to bowl scratch leagues, it is just ludicrous to say that no one should be able to have handicaps. By your statements everyone should bowl scratch, forget the fact that age can affect some people, injuries past or present others etc. Or how about the younger bowlers who just don't have the power to throw the big numbers. If these people had no handicap it would be so demoralising for most of them I doubt any of them would keep coming back week after week. While I support and bowl in scratch events, handicaps are in place now and should be, for very good and valid reasons.


I figured you would get it! LOL Hey I am 65 Austin,,, started bowing at 62 after I retired! Never bowled league before, or even knew what a finger tip ball was. I am a Retired Iron Worker, Local 10! I put up structural steel, buildings, bridges, towers, ornamental iron you name it! Walking the high Iron I believe gave me some great skills that flowed over into bowling! Balance and focus!

I don't think that everyone should bowl scratch, but try to find a scratch league around here at a place and time that is convenient, (if you can find one at all).

You mention older and younger bowlers, I am an older bowler,, LOL,, but that doesn't mean I want a damn pin for any young whipper-snapper.. LOL

I get your point and many others that like handicap! I bowl handicap because its basically all there is around here, even tournaments seam to be handicap.

Am I a HIGH AVERAGE HOT SHOT!! HELL NO! LOL,,, any where from 190 to low 200s on my current leagues. But on a given day I can have, ( like this last year,,, 300's, and a dozen or so 700s... best about 6 months ago a 780! I was good enough THAT DAY 3 games to beat a lot of younger, and older bowlers.

That's all I am saying! I worked hard and high my whole life, no ONE EVER gave me anything! When I played College football, and ran track, no one ever ,,, EVER gave me anything. I get more satisfaction out of beating another bowler when its scratch!

Me vs Michael thread was me and Jason, a 230 average incredible bowler! Jason was 23 at the time, now 24 I believe. We had a blast going at each other every Friday and posting our scores... LOL

Was, and IS JASON a better bowler then Iceman,,, (((HELL YES)) lol but on that given Friday with all the chips on the table, I kicked his ask,, most of the time, ( if I remember correctly)! LOL

I am not an idiot, LOL,,, but I DO NEED HELP!! (so some say!)

[mc_runner]

I kind of understand where Iceman's coming from. Think of it this way - when you're bowling in a handicapped league, and you look at your scores... do you say "hey I bowled a 280 game with handicap"? At least for me... I don't, I say hey I got a 235, doing well! Likewise if I'm going against another team's bowler and we have the same handicap... I look at the scratch scores to beat. Pretty much the only time handicap comes into play is the total game scores and points.

In that sense bowling in a scratch league would be good but I sure know that when I started (and even now) I wouldn't have joined a scratch league. Handicap leagues even the playing field enough that you don't feel AS intimidated to join if you're new. Someone said that without handicap, bowling leagues would die - I definitely agree.

However, the better you get... the more you want to sharpen your skills which a lot of handicap leagues don't really motivate you to do - why get better when you can make up with handicap? At that point a scratch league would be great especially if you're around that 200 avg mark. It'll motivate you to get better and get your competitive juices flowing! And, it's kind of depressing if you're in an alley where no one wants to bowl scratch, or a sport shot, or what have you. I think that's what Ice is saying... there just needs to be that OPTION.

[tccstudent]

2 of the 3 fall leagues I will be bowling in are scratch leagues.

[rv driver]

I kind of understand where Iceman's coming from. Think of it this way - when you're bowling in a handicapped league, and you look at your scores... do you say "hey I bowled a 280 game with handicap"? At least for me... I don't, I say hey I got a 235, doing well! Likewise if I'm going against another team's bowler and we have the same handicap... I look at the scratch scores to beat. Pretty much the only time handicap comes into play is the total game scores and points.

In that sense bowling in a scratch league would be good but I sure know that when I started (and even now) I wouldn't have joined a scratch league. Handicap leagues even the playing field enough that you don't feel AS intimidated to join if you're new. Someone said that without handicap, bowling leagues would die - I definitely agree.

However, the better you get... the more you want to sharpen your skills which a lot of handicap leagues don't really motivate you to do - why get better when you can make up with handicap? At that point a scratch league would be great especially if you're around that 200 avg mark. It'll motivate you to get better and get your competitive juices flowing! And, it's kind of depressing if you're in an alley where no one wants to bowl scratch, or a sport shot, or what have you. I think that's what Ice is saying... there just needs to be that OPTION.
Maybe it's just where I come from, but we called the handicap leagues the "beer leagues," because they were mostly just for fun; no one was really trying to improve their game, or were even really serious about bowling. Bowling was a means to an end -- not the end of itself. The scratch leagues were where the serious bowlers played -- and NO ONE drank beer at those leagues! They wanted to stay sharp. I never bowled a scratch, although I could have.

I think it depends a lot on the particular clientele of a given center. Some centers are full of clowns who are better than they ought to be and don't really care; others have folks who are into the sport and trying to improve their game.

[MICHAEL]

OK ASLAN,,, get this straight,,, I didn't only bowl at the AMF, that closed, as you put it one with blocked oil lanes.... which inableled me to throw those two 300 this last year! I would say come on down, and give it a try,,,, you have been bowling longer then me,,,, and much more coached! LOL... OOOOOOO you can't,,,, they closed those lanes because of too many 300's and 800's!! (:)

One thing, as I have mentioned both AMF's did was give us fresh house, or sports oil before EACH AND EVERY LEAGUE.

Now that I am bowilng at Gladstone Bowl, I notice for the FIRST TIME THAT they allow games on the LEAGUE lanes BEFORE WE Bowl! I have head that this could be used to destroy the oil for certain bowlers, if you know their track! Thus give unfair advantage, not to mention just screw up and destroy the oil.

I just assumed before bowing at Gladstone Bowl, that all houses kept people off the oil that was applied just prior to us bowling at the amf's!

Learn something new every day!!!

How many of you at your Lanes allow games on league night, prior to bowling your leagues?? DON"T MOST KEEP THEM OFF???

The 48 lane AMF that I also bowl on now, does guaranty fresh oil for our leagues,,,, and by the way our TEAM IS IN FIRST PLACE at the present time. (:)
3 person league, we have a game and a half lead at this time,,,, It's MY wife, Iceman, and a good friend! (seniors league at 1pm on Mondays, its a blast,,, a COOL BLAST.... ICEMAN!! (:)

[rv driver]

OK ASLAN,,, get this straight,,, I didn't only bowl at the AMF, that closed, as you put it one with blocked oil lanes.... which inableled me to throw those two 300 this last year! I would say come on down, and give it a try,,,, you have been bowling longer then me,,,, and much more coached! LOL... OOOOOOO you can't,,,, they closed those lanes because of too many 300's and 800's!! (:)

One thing, as I have mentioned both AMF's did was give us fresh house, or sports oil before EACH AND EVERY LEAGUE.

Now that I am bowilng at Gladstone Bowl, I notice for the FIRST TIME THAT they allow games on the LEAGUE lanes BEFORE WE Bowl! I have head that this could be used to destroy the oil for certain bowlers, if you know their track! Thus give unfair advantage, not to mention just screw up and destroy the oil.

I just assumed before bowing at Gladstone Bowl, that all houses kept people off the oil that was applied just prior to us bowling at the amf's!

Learn something new every day!!!

How many of you at your Lanes allow games on league night, prior to bowling your leagues?? DON"T MOST KEEP THEM OFF???

The 48 lane AMF that I also bowl on now, does guaranty fresh oil for our leagues,,,, and by the way our TEAM IS IN FIRST PLACE at the present time. (:)
3 person league, we have a game and a half lead at this time,,,, It's MY wife, Iceman, and a good friend! (seniors league at 1pm on Mondays, its a blast,,, a COOL BLAST.... ICEMAN!! (:)
It's been a loooong number of years, but if I remember correctly, our little 16 lane house closed the alleys for some time before leagues (we actually had a "league night" -- small town, don't you know -- I think it was Tuesday), and you couldn't bowl because they were dressing the lanes for league.

Wow! What great memories!

[Hampe]

I get more satisfaction out of beating another bowler when its scratch! What if that bowler averages 130? You get satisfaction from that?

[MICHAEL]

What if that bowler averages 130? You get satisfaction from that?

YES,, Hampe,,,, It's still a victory! As and example, think of the Mike White, and Aslan victory, not exactly a Barn Burner!
But a Victory Just the same! Even with the LOW scores, Aslan was on cloud NINE! IT did not diminish his gratification, or HIS feeling of grander!!!

To the Victor Goes All the spoils!!! REGARDLESS of who that defeated bowler is!! Give me Victory, or give me a nEW BaLL!!! LOL

[Amyers]

YES,, Hampe,,,, It's still a victory! As and example, think of the Mike White, and Aslan victory, not exactly a Barn Burner!
But a Victory Just the same! Even with the LOW scores, Aslan was on cloud NINE! IT did not diminish his gratification, or HIS feeling of grander!!!

To the Victor Goes All the spoils!!! REGARDLESS of who that defeated bowler is!! Give me Victory, or give me a nEW BaLL!!! LOL

I'm sorry I just don't see it I get no satisfaction from beating the brains in of a less talented bowler. I bowl a win lose or draw league on Friday nights this summer basically you random draw for you opponents. My opponent last week was a new bowler or just started she averages about 85 pins a game I bowled like crap with her handicap she actually beat me one game. I deserved to lose that game wasn't really happy that I won one of the other two I didn't deserve it. Victory comes form exceeding your goals and bowling better than your opponent not form getting lucky and drawing a poor opponent.

[rv driver]

I'm sorry I just don't see it I get no satisfaction from beating the brains in of a less talented bowler. I bowl a win lose or draw league on Friday nights this summer basically you random draw for you opponents. My opponent last week was a new bowler or just started she averages about 85 pins a game I bowled like crap with her handicap she actually beat me one game. I deserved to lose that game wasn't really happy that I won one of the other two I didn't deserve it. Victory comes form exceeding your goals and bowling better than your opponent not form getting lucky and drawing a poor opponent.
Yeah, I don't understand how Michael Jordan could feel good about winning a decisive one-on-one against a jr. high kid...