Is it the BALL, or the SKILL of the Bowler

[MICHAEL]

What percent is the Ball vs the Skill of the Bowler! MY thought is 30 percent the ball, and 70 percent the bowler. I am a firm believer that the skill and gift of bowler is the better part of what will get you big scores. Balls are just in my opinion 30 percent of the equation.

[Shaneshu87]

i think it 100 percent skill, balls do not make the bowler. for example there is a guy that bowls in my fall season with a mutant cell, carries like a 232 avg, he suitcases the ball on the 2 arrow and BAM every time, he tried bowling in the PBA experience league hasn't broke 100 yet. a good bowler should be able to roll any ball that fit his/her hand and make it strike. don't get me wrong i think the right gear makes it easier, and i know the ball can do work for you, but before that the bowler has to lay it down right and consistent or else the ball does not have the same outcome.

[MICHAEL]

ITs both,,, but to what degree? I have seen Jason grab any of my bowling balls, and make them look like it was his! I have seen him do that with anyone's bowling ball. He has that gift! Jason, (The Dude), has Lots of skill, and 300s and 800s to back it up! (:)

Could it be a GIFT,,, that gives him this ability? Defiantly not the ball in his case. He can make magic with anyone's drilled ball.....

we are all looking for that new release,,, a ball that can give us those high numbers.... could it be that we are looking for is a ball that don't exist?

Maybe what we should be doing is developing the skill, and GIFT, associated with bowling?

[TotallyDefiant]

I believe the ball can help for a lower rev player but for the most part it is the raw talent of the individual holding the ball. It does not take a big swinging hook to be a good bowler. As soon as I can get this 100% ingrained into my brain I will start bowling over 200 every game.

[rv driver]

the ball is a tool. Sure, it can help the athlete play his game better, but in the end it's the athlete who does the playing. Sure, a Trek is a great bicycle, but if you put Rush Limbaugh on one, he's not going to magically win the Tour de France. It did, though, help Lance Armstrong in his endeavors.

[tccstudent]

It did, though, help Lance Armstrong in his endeavors.

My bad i thought that was Steroids that helped him win

[Amyers]

The right ball for the correct condition can make you better. The wrong ball on the incorrect conditions can make you question your sanity. To a certain amount we can vary up to our ability how hard we throw the lines we play and vary our release but if we take it to the point that we are out of our confortable zone scores are going to suffer.

[RobLV1]

It's the skill of the bowler first, BUT, if you have two bowlers of equal skill competing, and one has the right ball in his hand, and one has the wrong ball in his hand, the one with the right ball will win every single time! Bowlers who insist that a bowler's physical skill is all that matters simply don't want to take the time to learn about bowling balls. There is a reason that ball reps have a permanent home on the PBA Tour. If you don't have a ball rep of your own, you'd better get your head out of the sand and start learning what makes each ball unique.

[MICHAEL]

It's the skill of the bowler first, BUT, if you have two bowlers of equal skill competing, and one has the right ball in his hand, and one has the wrong ball in his hand, the one with the right ball will win every single time! Bowlers who insist that a bowler's physical skill is all that matters simply don't want to take the time to learn about bowling balls. There is a reason that ball reps have a permanent home on the PBA Tour. If you don't have a ball rep of your own, you'd better get your head out of the sand and start learning what makes each ball unique.

I won't argue with what you said Rob! First its the skills, but to what percentage does the ball make a difference? HOW A BALL IS DRILLED is in my opinion HUGE ALSO!

You can have any ball drilled so MANY WAYS, and it makes a HUGE difference as to how that ball reacts. I think bowlers should EXPLOR different methods, JUST to SEE how a different drilling reacts to their style and delivery!

NO MAGIC BALL OUT THEIR! Raw talent number 1, then having a ball drilled to suit YOUR STYLE of bowing and lane conditions number 2, then make and model of ball!

I think most bowlers I know all go to their driller and say: ( GIVE ME A BIG FLIP, HOOK at the END!)

What many wind up with is a real jumpy erratic ball! especially as the oil begins to transition.

Try some Pin downs along with pins up kicked out to the right of ring finger......explore the difference in a ball! Any good ball can do remarkable things when you lean the secret of how to drill it to suit YOU! I say drilling is 50 percent of the goodie your going to get out of a ball.

A BALL IS ONLY AS GOOD AS IT WAS DRILLED, and then its UP to YOU! (:)

[MICHAEL]

The right ball for the correct condition can make you better. The wrong ball on the incorrect conditions can make you question your sanity. To a certain amount we can vary up to our ability how hard we throw the lines we play and vary our release but if we take it to the point that we are out of our confortable zone scores are going to suffer.

I agree Amyers, but its also amazing what ALMOST any ball can do with the right surface! A skilled bowler, can make adjustments in his delivery, along with a different surface and make a ball adapt to many different oil conditions.

I have played with different surfaces, ( I have a nice spinner I purchased on line, best money I have spent so far on bowling, WITHOUT A DOUBT).

Also the same ball drilled 3 different ways, becomes in reality 3 different balls. I some times think that for example if a person purchased 3 IQ pearls, you could dirll that same ball 3 radically different ways, you would have ( that ONE MAKE and MODEL BALL l), handling 3 different conditions the lanes might present.

The secret is to find that MAGIC DRILLING THAT WORKS for YOU,,,, along with surface for the lanes you bowl, or pattern.

Still SKILL, and Knowledge is number ONE! Concentration, and Focus!

[Mike White]

I won't argue with what you said Rob! First its the skills, but to what percentage does the ball make a difference? HOW A BALL IS DRILLED is in my opinion HUGE ALSO!

You can have any ball drilled so MANY WAYS, and it makes a HUGE difference as to how that ball reacts. I think bowlers should EXPLOR different methods, JUST to SEE how a different drilling reacts to their style and delivery!

NO MAGIC BALL OUT THEIR! Raw talent number 1, then having a ball drilled to suit YOUR STYLE of bowing and lane conditions number 2, then make and model of ball!

I think most bowlers I know all go to their driller and say: ( GIVE ME A BIG FLIP, HOOK at the END!)

What many wind up with is a real jumpy erratic ball! especially as the oil begins to transition.

Try some Pin downs along with pins up kicked out to the right of ring finger......explore the difference in a ball! Any good ball can do remarkable things when you lean the secret of how to drill it to suit YOU! I say drilling is 50 percent of the goodie your going to get out of a ball.

A BALL IS ONLY AS GOOD AS IT WAS DRILLED, and then its UP to YOU! (:)

The ball and the bowlers skill are factors in scoring, but they pale in comparison to oil pattern.

Under the right conditions, a spray can, house ball throwing idiot can shoot big scores.

The problem I see with saying the ball makes the difference is you can't objectively say, if I throw Ball X, I'm going to do better than if I throw Ball Y.

It's not until you see what the ball does, that you can make that determination.

So the scoring determines which ball is better, so yeah, the better ball will score better once you know which ball will score better.

Circular logic.

A players skill isn't just one item. It's broken down into many sub-skills.

One player who doesn't carry well, but is deadly at spares, may score the same as someone who carry's well, but can't make a spare to save his life.

Would you call these people equally skilled?

If you change the oil pattern, it probably will help one of those two players more than the other.

Then they wouldn't be scoring the same, and would appear to have different overall skill levels.

Your question doesn't have a reasonable answer.

[Amyers]

I agree Amyers, but its also amazing what ALMOST any ball can do with the right surface! A skilled bowler, can make adjustments in his delivery, along with a different surface and make a ball adapt to many different oil conditions.

I have played with different surfaces, ( I have a nice spinner I purchased on line, best money I have spent so far on bowling, WITHOUT A DOUBT).

Also the same ball drilled 3 different ways, becomes in reality 3 different balls. I some times think that for example if a person purchased 3 IQ pearls, you could dirll that same ball 3 radically different ways, you would have ( that ONE MAKE and MODEL BALL l), handling 3 different conditions the lanes might present.

The secret is to find that MAGIC DRILLING THAT WORKS for YOU,,,, along with surface for the lanes you bowl, or pattern.

Still SKILL, and Knowledge is number ONE! Concentration, and Focus!

On some of this I agree with you drillings and surface do matter. I also agree you should experiment with different drillings but you should also keep in mind what the ball was made to do with both. I have a friend that tried a weak control drilling on a Storm Sync didn't like it. I am kind of like what did you expect this ball wasn't designed to be that. If you take things too far with surface or drillings away from what the ball was meant to be I believe you are likely to end up with lower performance. You mentioned the IQ pearl even if you put a 500 grit surface on it your still not going to get the good midland read you would with the IQ solid it wasn't designed to do that.

[RobLV1]

Everybody's right!

Regardless of the skill level of the bowler, to get the most out of that skill level, getting the ball to match up with the oil pattern is very important. The higher the skill level of the bowler, the more important the ball becomes.

There are only two elements that determine ball reaction: friction and resistence. Resistence is provided by the radius of gyration, and friction is affected by everything else: cover material, surface preparation, and how the core is orientated within the ball. Specific layouts are not magic. All the layout does is to change the actual core numbers. The core numbers, low rg and differential, reference a bowling ball before it is drilled. Once you put holes in the ball, depending on where the holes go, the numbers change. This is why I have long recommended that bowlers stick to one to three proven layouts. By doing this, you can look at the undrilled numbers of several bowling balls, and while you won't know the actual numbers, you will know that the change is consistent from ball A to ball B to ball C.

In terms of surface, the surface is very important as it is the only thing about the bowling ball that can be easily changed. For example, I am going to practice for a tournament this afternoon. I am taking seven bowling balls: a spare ball plus six. Practice today is on the fresh oil pattern. I have taken my two most aggressive balls, the Mastermind and the Mastermind Genius, and put a fresh 500 abralon surface on each. I am taking a full set of new abralon pads with me, and during practice I will bring up the surface on each until I get the reaction I'm looking for. While the two balls have the same core, the Mastermind is a solid that is drilled aggressively, and the Genius is a hybrid which is drilled with the pin in the ring finger to tone down the reaction. By adjusting the two surfaces to match up with the oil pattern, I can get two different reactions from the two balls with the same core.

[MICHAEL]

Everybody's right!

Regardless of the skill level of the bowler, to get the most out of that skill level, getting the ball to match up with the oil pattern is very important. The higher the skill level of the bowler, the more important the ball becomes.

There are only two elements that determine ball reaction: friction and resistence. Resistence is provided by the radius of gyration, and friction is affected by everything else: cover material, surface preparation, and how the core is orientated within the ball. Specific layouts are not magic. All the layout does is to change the actual core numbers. The core numbers, low rg and differential, reference a bowling ball before it is drilled. Once you put holes in the ball, depending on where the holes go, the numbers change. This is why I have long recommended that bowlers stick to one to three proven layouts. By doing this, you can look at the undrilled numbers of several bowling balls, and while you won't know the actual numbers, you will know that the change is consistent from ball A to ball B to ball C.

In terms of surface, the surface is very important as it is the only thing about the bowling ball that can be easily changed. For example, I am going to practice for a tournament this afternoon. I am taking seven bowling balls: a spare ball plus six. Practice today is on the fresh oil pattern. I have taken my two most aggressive balls, the Mastermind and the Mastermind Genius, and put a fresh 500 abralon surface on each. I am taking a full set of new abralon pads with me, and during practice I will bring up the surface on each until I get the reaction I'm looking for. While the two balls have the same core, the Mastermind is a solid that is drilled aggressively, and the Genius is a hybrid which is drilled with the pin in the ring finger to tone down the reaction. By adjusting the two surfaces to match up with the oil pattern, I can get two different reactions from the two balls with the same core.

when using your abralon pads by HAND, don't you find it hard to apply the surface evenly? When I use the spinner I do so much pressure, on four sides, for the same amount of time. When doing it by hand, what method do you use???

[Aslan]

It's kind've a silly question.

I'd say bowling is somewhere between soccer on the one end of the spectrum and Nascar or horse racing on the other side pod the spectrum.

Equipment obviously plays more of a part than in many sports like basketball, baseball, and soccer. But even if so, it's still probably 91% skill over ball.

But due to modern technology and how it's changed the game…we can't just say " it's all skill" because we're seeing SO many players bowling in the 200s that if they had to use urethane or rubber balls of the old days would probably not average 150. We still see bowlers averaging 221 that go try a sport pattern or USBC open and can't break 165. So OBVIOUSLY equipment IS more of a factor.

I recently read an article talking about the bowlers most affected by the change from urethane to resin. The interesting part of the story (for me anyways) was that reactive resin didn't HURT anyone…it just minimized the advantage some guys had. If you were a cranker in the urethane days…you had the same advantage that a 2-handed bowler has today. When reactive resin came along…suddenly strokers got the same advantage (entry angle, pin carry) without needing to develop a high rev release. So the more ACCURATE bowlers got the advantage of entry angle…and the less accurate bowlers who were relying on generating the revs/angle…suddenly lost their advantage.

Thats why I don't think 2-handed will ever become dominant as a style. Even though it offers some advatanges in terms of entry angle and pin carry…as balls continue to develop that give the average bowler better and better angles to the pocket…..the difference between 1-handed and 2-handed will continue to be minimized.

[RobLV1]

Michael: Using a spinner is almost mandatory in terms of taking the surface down to the roughest. There are three elements involved in adding surfact: abrasion, pressure, and time. That is exactly why I took the surface on my bowling balls down to a fresh 500 on a spinner, and intended to finish them off by hand. When you finish it off by hand, you use circular motions to give a clean, even surface over the spinner surface.

Aslan: My prediction: in 20 years, 95% of the bowlers on the professional tour (if there still is one) will be bowling with two hands. BTW, if I'm right, donate some money to a charity because I will most probably be dead, or very close to it.

[Shaneshu87]

i still have to say it's all skill and experience, while new technology is changing the game for the better, you still have to KNOW the right ball for the right shot, you cannot roll the same ball on every PBA shot and expect the same results, for one if you do then i would question your sanity lol. while the average joe can pick up a high end ball and make it hook the house and carry a 200+ avg does not make him a great bowler, especially if he is shooting on the same exact house shot each week, the only thing he learns is what arrow to hit every time for a strike, change that and you screw up his whole world lol i've seen this happen. what make you a great bowler is actively getting out of your comfort zone and learning how to adjust to a different shot by making the necessary equipment changes. so yes the right equipment on the right shot can equal success, but it's 100% skill of the bowler to determine the right equipment for the right condition.

[Aslan]

Aslan: My prediction: in 20 years, 95% of the bowlers on the professional tour (if there still is one) will be bowling with two hands. BTW, if I'm right, donate some money to a charity because I will most probably be dead, or very close to it.

I'd take that bet if you weren't too dead to pay up. For that to be true…we'd have to be seeing about 95% of youth bowlers bowling 2-handed…since in 20 years our current youth will be at the pro level. Of matter of fact, there's MORE of a chance that the PBA won't exist in 20 years than there is 95% of PBA bowlers will throw 2-handed.

Not gonna happen. As balls become stronger and stronger…2-handed will lose it's advantage. Will you see MORE 2-handers in 20 years? Absolutely. It's a popular fad right now and many youth are taking to it. But in 20 years? I'd be shocked if it was 40% much less 95%.

[Mike White]

But due to modern technology and how it's changed the game…we can't just say " it's all skill" because we're seeing SO many players bowling in the 200s that if they had to use urethane or rubber balls of the old days would probably not average 150. We still see bowlers averaging 221 that go try a sport pattern or USBC open and can't break 165. So OBVIOUSLY equipment IS more of a factor.

Not so obvious.

The same person (skill), using the same equipment (ball), the only difference is the oil pattern.

Looks to me like the oil pattern has the most significant effect on scoring.

If I had to rank the effects on scoring, it would be lane condition (oil), player skill, equipment.

[RobLV1]

Not so obvious.

The same person (skill), using the same equipment (ball), the only difference is the oil pattern.

Looks to me like the oil pattern has the most significant effect on scoring.

If I had to rank the effects on scoring, it would be lane condition (oil), player skill, equipment.

I agree. The lane condition dictates the equipment that is to be used, and the player's skill level determines how successful he can be with the right ball in his hand, when playing the correct line for the pattern. The best players can do three things: figure out how to play the pattern, figure out what ball will do the job, and change the rotation on their ball to create the most area to carry the most corner pins. This, along with their ability to consistently repeat shots is what makes them the best bowlers.

[vdubtx]

I agree. The lane condition dictates the equipment that is to be used, and the player's skill level determines how successful he can be with the right ball in his hand, when playing the correct line for the pattern. The best players can do three things: figure out how to play the pattern, figure out what ball will do the job, and change the rotation on their ball to create the most area to carry the most corner pins. This, along with their ability to consistently repeat shots is what makes them the best bowlers.

Shot repeatability is paramount to being the best bowler. I experienced that first hand in Reno couple weeks ago. I just could not keep my shot consistent and it cost me.

[MICHAEL]

Answer

1. skill of bowler! You can have the best ball in the world, but if you were not born to bowl, you just might never reach that level of a 220 and
above average, even on league house oil.

GOOD coaching is a Good thing, if you can find a good one. Many different philosophies on how to bowl, but even then it does not guaranty you that you will be, or EVER be a 220 average bowler, on house conditions. Its not easy even with knowledge!

no magic ball, but RAW SKILL can do it... I know so many bowlers that don't even know the brand of ball they are throwing, and have NEVER had a lesion, but bowl high into the 220's 30s

I am not sure about Rob, and his average, with the treasure chest of knowledge he has. THE RAW TALENT comes to play!

Their is nothing easy about a 220 and above average on league house oil! I know a few coach's that don't bowl at that level. RAW TALENT again.

Best ball on the market, (what ever that might be), drilled for your style of bowling, on house oil will not get you to that level, unless

YOU HAVE THE GIFT/RAW TALENT.

Is skill the same thing as Raw talent? I think they are related, but not the same! Does coaching help, in regards to skill, YES!

Will it get you to that pentacle of 220 average, not necessarily, the RAW talent come to play also!

I haven't reached that average yet, and may never, but I do have respect for those that do,,,, they have the SKILL and RAW TALENT!

It amazes me how I have had a couple 300s this last year in a short period of time, and that almost 800!! And then can be so average many other times... I seem to have the Raw talent (NOW AND THEN),, LOL,,,, but it COMES and GOES!! LOL

A ball is nothing but a tool, if you don't have the skills, knowledge, and RAW talent, the magic might never HAPPEN in this life time for some of us. lol,,,,, but its still ONE HELL OF A GAME,,, and beats playing bat mitten!!

[Aslan]

Looks to me like the oil pattern has the most significant effect on scoring.


I get what you're saying, but oil pattern really isn't a fair choice because it's outside the bowler's control. Unless you're Iceman and refuse to bowl outside 1-2 alleys in KC where you KNOW the oil pattern is going to be a certain way...a bowler can't "choose" an oil pattern or "develop" their "oil pattern". It's like saying the biggest affect on a race horse is the track conditions. That MAY be true. Some horses run better on wet conditions and some struggle. But it's irrelevant to a discussion about whether the horse or the jockey has the biggest effect on a race.

As to the rest of Iceman's answer to his own question, this is just a continuation of 2 other threads about how Iceman is naturally gifted and so is his son and so is the rest of the people on his team and natural gifts trump lessons and everything else. And my answer is the same one I gave the last 2 times we beat this horse...until any of the aforementioned players test their 220+ averages against real competition in real tournaments or scratch leagues or sport leagues...then all we're debating is whether or not bigfoot exists.

If Iceman and his crew of merry men are a good as we keep hearing...with all their NATURAL ABILITY...they should be a SHOE IN to take home the coveted Eagle at the USBC Open in El Paso in 2015. Of matter of fact, if they are THAT good...might want to just skip the USBC amateur event and get your PBA card and start performing on the BIG stage! Like I said, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. If I see Iceman out there against PDW or Belmo...I'll be cheering like heck for Iceman and come on here admitting how wrong I was and praising Iceman's superior GIFT. But UNITL THEN...his team racking up 210+ averages beating "Spuds Bar and Restaurant" and "VFW 2150 Lady's Auxillary" doesn't impress me quite so much.

I just participated in a tough tournament this Saturday. And it was a humbling experience. And while it did sting...and DID momentarily make me question whether or not I should continue to strive to be the best bowler I can be (rather than just focusing on something else because I suck at bowling)...it has ultimately made me even MORE diligent to get better. I wonder. I wonder how Iceman or his team of gifted individuals would respond after such an experience.

I may not have Iceman's GIFT of being instantly the greatest bowler ever. But I do have a different GIFT...the gift of persistence and determination. And yes, it'll be harder to do it this way (than if I had the GIFT), but the result will still be the same or better.

[Amyers]

I get what you're saying, but oil pattern really isn't a fair choice because it's outside the bowler's control. Unless you're Iceman and refuse to bowl outside 1-2 alleys in KC where you KNOW the oil pattern is going to be a certain way...a bowler can't "choose" an oil pattern or "develop" their "oil pattern". It's like saying the biggest affect on a race horse is the track conditions. That MAY be true. Some horses run better on wet conditions and some struggle. But it's irrelevant to a discussion about whether the horse or the jockey has the biggest effect on a race.

As to the rest of Iceman's answer to his own question, this is just a continuation of 2 other threads about how Iceman is naturally gifted and so is his son and so is the rest of the people on his team and natural gifts trump lessons and everything else. And my answer is the same one I gave the last 2 times we beat this horse...until any of the aforementioned players test their 220+ averages against real competition in real tournaments or scratch leagues or sport leagues...then all we're debating is whether or not bigfoot exists.

If Iceman and his crew of merry men are a good as we keep hearing...with all their NATURAL ABILITY...they should be a SHOE IN to take home the coveted Eagle at the USBC Open in El Paso in 2015. Of matter of fact, if they are THAT good...might want to just skip the USBC amateur event and get your PBA card and start performing on the BIG stage! Like I said, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. If I see Iceman out there against PDW or Belmo...I'll be cheering like heck for Iceman and come on here admitting how wrong I was and praising Iceman's superior GIFT. But UNITL THEN...his team racking up 210+ averages beating "Spuds Bar and Restaurant" and "VFW 2150 Lady's Auxillary" doesn't impress me quite so much.

I just participated in a tough tournament this Saturday. And it was a humbling experience. And while it did sting...and DID momentarily make me question whether or not I should continue to strive to be the best bowler I can be (rather than just focusing on something else because I suck at bowling)...it has ultimately made me even MORE diligent to get better. I wonder. I wonder how Iceman or his team of gifted individuals would respond after such an experience.

I may not have Iceman's GIFT of being instantly the greatest bowler ever. But I do have a different GIFT...the gift of persistence and determination. And yes, it'll be harder to do it this way (than if I had the GIFT), but the result will still be the same or better.

Mike missed the point of the thread. The oil pattern definitely has the greatest impact on scoring, unfortunately we were discussing the importance of ball selection oil patterns are static you can't influence them and the people you are competing against are on the same oil pattern so it doesn't matter except how it affects you. Having the right equipment for the right situation can make you more successful will it fix it if you are spraying the ball all over the place NO. But if you are under balled as Aslan learned at his tournament it very difficult to be successful its the same on the other side if you are on dryer conditions and have an aggressive ball unless its a normal part of your game to loft the gutters its going to negatively affect you. From what I hear on the sport patterns this gets even more specific to drillings and surface.

[Aslan]

Here's another case for the equipment side of things:

I bowled against a guy this weekend that probably was the most skilled of the 5 us bowling on our pair. He was a senior, low speed, lower rev. In terms of "skill", this guy bowled 2 straight games with only ONE open frame...EVERY single mark was a spare! He didn't strike ONCE in two games. THAT takes skill. That takes MAD skill!

But did he win? No. He had the 3rd highest score, just above me. In one game I actually beat him. The two guys that finished ahead of him...both were 'decent bowlers...one was pretty darn good actually. But they had more open frames. More errant shots. More "missing their marks". But they finished higher because they had good rev rates and could create better angle into the pocket. So, they STRUCK.

Who was most "skilled"? The old guy that finished 3rd. Had he had a stronger ball or been able to impart more revolutions on his shot...with his level of spare shooting...he'd have DESTROYED us. Had those other two guys had weaker equipment and been forced to rely on accuracy and finesse...they'd have shot around what I shot.

I don't 100% agree that you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction. BUT...I think the RIGHT ball reaction can make a much better bowler out of a worse bowler. And I think a bowler is at a really big disadvantage if they have to try and make a bad ball do something it's not designed to. I'm not talking about quick surface changes. I'm talking about adding or removing revolutions. I'm talking about changing your approach. I'm talking about adding loft. All of these things CAN be done to get a "bad ball" to act "right"...but thats a LOT of work that your opponent with the correct ball choice doesn't have to mess with.

And lets be clear...it's not just a matter of "ball choice". Some players only own ONE or TWO or THREE balls. Many bowlers can't afford massive arsenals and 6-ball professional roller bags. For them, it's not a "choice".

[rv driver]

I like what one poster said about it being the knowledge and experience of selecting the right ball for the conditions, having that ball available, and being able to make the adjustments necessary to "beat the oil."

bowling, as I see it, can't really be divided out, as Iceman wants to do, because bowling is a synthesis of human being, ball, lane, pins, and oil. Bowlers are good because they know enough and are skilled enough to select and then use the right equipment in the right situation.

[MICHAEL]

I like what one poster said about it being the knowledge and experience of selecting the right ball for the conditions, having that ball available, and being able to make the adjustments necessary to "beat the oil."

bowling, as I see it, can't really be divided out, as Iceman wants to do, because bowling is a synthesis of human being, ball, lane, pins, and oil. Bowlers are good because they know enough and are skilled enough to select and then use the right equipment in the right situation.

First off ASLAN, Iceman bowled on 4 different lanes two complexly different AMF houses, one closed now, Gladstone, and Retro Bowl. How many do you bowl on league.? I am getting tired of that one chosen lane BS! Do you even read my threads? Or like me not reading but part of yours, do you do the same thing?
ASLAN:

Again I know right off hand several guys Tyrone being one of them that has just ONE BOWLING BALL, and bowls a 220 plus average. I asked him this last winter season what brand ball he threw, and he said, he didn't know,,, and it was so worn that you could not tell. He is one hell of a bowler because he has the gift!! He has That RAW TALENT, and it comes natural without coaching... SURE THIS is HOUSE Pattern league bowling, but he does it not EVER Having had a lesion! RAW,,,, GIFT! ( I wish I had it, never, EVER insinuated that I HAD RAW TALENT!! LOL

I don't have the gift, if I did it would be worn out at my age! I don't have at this time a 220 plus average on league!!

What I do have is weird,,, the ability to do way above my average every now and then on league.

This last year I had many good bowlers come up to me and tell me that they had been bowing for many years, and no 300s!

On a given day I can do a strong 700, and close 800! My RAW TALENT is at an age where it only comes out every now and then. I am a 190 to 200 bower at this time depending on which league. I am in no way a GIFTED 220 average bowler!! I may NEVER be that good! My RAW gift only comes in spurts! LOL

To be honest, my goal is realistic! I want that 800 with one more 300 in that series... this summer, or next fall. Then Iceman can die with a smile on his bowling face, and go to Bowling heaven!!! (:)

[vdubtx]

What I do have is weird,,, the ability to do way above my average every now and then on league.

This last year I had many good bowlers come up to me and tell me that they had been bowing for many years, and no 300s!

On a given day I can do a strong 700, and close 800! My RAW TALENT is at an age where it only comes out every now and then. I am a 190 to 200 bower at this time depending on which league. I am in no way a GIFTED 220 average bowler!! I may NEVER be that good! My RAW gift only comes in spurts! LOL

To be honest, my goal is realistic! I want that 800 with one more 300 in that series... this summer, or next fall. Then Iceman can die with a smile on his bowling face, and go to Bowling heaven!!! (:)

That's not weird ICEMAN, that is normal. We all have our good weeks on the lanes, and then we have the really good weeks where nothing can go wrong. Keep learning the way you have in the last couple years, and it will all fall into place once again. Power through the tough times on the lanes, and savor the good ones. :) :cool:

[Aslan]

Ice…ya know I love ya man…but either you and your Dude and son and teammates are God's gift to bowling and should be praised for their natural gifts…or they're just regular bowlers. And IF they/you are the greatest gift to bowling…then it's time to test that. And there are multiple, multiple, multiple ways to do that.

[dnhoffman]

bout 96% bowler, 4% ball

[rv driver]

bout 96% bowler, 4% ball
If you consider that "bowler" includes, not only raw bowling ability, but the knowledge and experience to adjust everything for lane conditions, I'd say you're about right.

[RobLV1]

So much depends on the skill level of the bowler. The higher the skill level, the more that having the correct bowling ball in your hand comes into play. The pros depend so much on the advice and imput from the ball reps (as well as the ongoing supply of new bowling balls that they are provided), that it really makes it an unfair situation for the non-pro competitiors. A 160 average bowler will probably not see a difference in bowling balls. A 190+ average bowler will not only see a difference, they will see that the difference will have a huge impact on their averages. Most 220+ bowlers already know the differences.

If you currently use more than one bowling ball, here's a drill for you: Keep track of the percentage of times that you strike on your first shot when you change bowling balls. You should be able to 90% of the time. If you can't, then you need to learn the differences in reaction more fully.

[Amyers]

Rob this doesn't make sense. I think you are little high on your number. The pro's don't even strike 90% of the time on average using the same ball. Why would you be able to strike 90% picking one up cold? If you averaged striking 90% percent of the time you would be averaging over 11 strikes a game. I'm not sure why picking your next ball up off the rack would be magical or we would all switch balls after every shot. I get what your point is that you should be able to throw a good shot as soon as you pick up your number 2 ball not spend 2 or 3 frames trying to find the line but 90% is nuts unless I'm missing something.

[Mike White]

So much depends on the skill level of the bowler. The higher the skill level, the more that having the correct bowling ball in your hand comes into play. The pros depend so much on the advice and imput from the ball reps (as well as the ongoing supply of new bowling balls that they are provided), that it really makes it an unfair situation for the non-pro competitiors. A 160 average bowler will probably not see a difference in bowling balls. A 190+ average bowler will not only see a difference, they will see that the difference will have a huge impact on their averages. Most 220+ bowlers already know the differences.

If you currently use more than one bowling ball, here's a drill for you: Keep track of the percentage of times that you strike on your first shot when you change bowling balls. You should be able to 90% of the time. If you can't, then you need to learn the differences in reaction more fully.

90%??????

Now there is a reasonable expectation..... NOT.

A 220 bowler (with good spare ability) will strike about 55% of the time overall.

[vdubtx]

90%??????

Now there is a reasonable expectation..... NOT.

A 220 bowler (with good spare ability) will strike about 55% of the time overall.

Not to split hairs, but strike percentage would be closer to 60% at 220 average.

[bowl1820]

I get what your point is that you should be able to throw a good shot as soon as you pick up your number 2 ball not spend 2 or 3 frames trying to find the line but 90% is nuts unless I'm missing something.


90%??????
Now there is a reasonable expectation..... NOT.
A 220 bowler (with good spare ability) will strike about 55% of the time overall.


Not to split hairs, but strike percentage would be closer to 60% at 220 average.

Rob's not referring to the strike percentage for the game as a whole, but to the strike percentage related to when you change balls.

That you should know your equipment well enough, so that when you make a ball change. you throw a strike with it the first time you roll it 90% of the time.

Now is 90% high for that? That I can't say. I've seen a lot stats, but haven't seen them related to ball changes.




I'm not sure why picking your next ball up off the rack would be magical or we would all switch balls after every shot.

Nobody advocates changing balls after every shot. But if you see the shot/line changing then making a ball change can help. And like you said you don't want to be fishing around for 2-3 frames looking for the shot.

That's why you should know your equipment so that you'll be able to make the best shot you can after a ball change.

[rv driver]

So much depends on the skill level of the bowler. The higher the skill level, the more that having the correct bowling ball in your hand comes into play. The pros depend so much on the advice and imput from the ball reps (as well as the ongoing supply of new bowling balls that they are provided), that it really makes it an unfair situation for the non-pro competitiors. A 160 average bowler will probably not see a difference in bowling balls. A 190+ average bowler will not only see a difference, they will see that the difference will have a huge impact on their averages. Most 220+ bowlers already know the differences.

If you currently use more than one bowling ball, here's a drill for you: Keep track of the percentage of times that you strike on your first shot when you change bowling balls. You should be able to 90% of the time. If you can't, then you need to learn the differences in reaction more fully.
This makes a lot of sense to me. This is where part of that "96% bowler," where knowledge and experience come into play as to which tool is right for the job, comes in. If he's throwing consistently, and if he knows his ball reactions, a good bowler will throw a very high percentage of strikes the first throw after a ball change.

[Aslan]

Rob's not referring to the strike percentage for the game as a whole, but to the strike percentage related to when you change balls.



Exactly. Rob was making the point that high level bowlers that believe in the arsenal concept should strike 9 out of 10 times when making a ball change on the shot just after making the change.

In other words, and this is a Aslan bowling pet peeve, most bowlers with "arsenals" aren't good enough to justify having them...because many of them make changes for reasons they can't even put into words other than, "That ball isn't striking."

But I agree entirely with Rob on this. I think to truly take advantage of differences in balls, ball manufacturers, and even to a lesser extent ball/drilling specs...you have to have a very consistent game. I'm going to try and work with MWhite on a project where I have 2 balls drilled very differently to see if I can create 2 very different reactions using simply drilling/layout/surface changes. But both Mike and I agree that the biggest "challenge" is whether or not we can accurately see those changes given my below average bowling ability. Rob also made a video in another thread seeing the differences between assymetric and symmetric cores...and we had the discussion...is it that there is no real difference? Or is it that Rob's style/ability doesn't accurately depict the true difference?

I thought a lot about this after going to the coaching seminar last weekend. The instructor said they don't really recommend reactive resin balls or even HOOKING the balls for bowlers until they average about 150. 150!!

Do I agree with that? Well...I see the POINT of it...given the seminar was mainly about youth bowling. I think you want to develop their SKILLS before adding hooking and ball variations. But is that what I'd recommend to an adult?? Probably not. But it IS an illustration of this whole discussion...that ideally...IDEALLY...a person would become accurate and consistent enough with the straight ball...and good enough at shooting spares...THEN you add in hooking the ball...THEN when they get to a very high level you start having arsenals and all that kind of stuff.

[Amyers]

Rob's not referring to the strike percentage for the game as a whole, but to the strike percentage related to when you change balls.

That you should know your equipment well enough, so that when you make a ball change. you throw a strike with it the first time you roll it 90% of the time.

Now is 90% high for that? That I can't say. I've seen a lot stats, but haven't seen them related to ball changes.





Nobody advocates changing balls after every shot. But if you see the shot/line changing then making a ball change can help. And like you said you don't want to be fishing around for 2-3 frames looking for the shot.

That's why you should know your equipment so that you'll be able to make the best shot you can after a ball change.

I wasn't really suggesting you change balls after every shot just saying if you could throw strikes 90% of the time after a change you should. I believe the correct way of looking at this is too minimize the drop in strike percentage between what you normally achieve and your first shot after a ball change and it is going to be a drop not a gain as you are making your first shot with only your knowledge of the differences between your ball and not empirical evidence that you have had over how ever many shots you have played with the other ball before the change. If you are striking at a higher percentage with your first shot after the change you should be changing balls earlier.

[vdubtx]

Rob's not referring to the strike percentage for the game as a whole, but to the strike percentage related to when you change balls.


Yep, I knew that when I responded to Mike White's comment. He is quick to try to correct Rob, so I figured I would correct his "correction" even though it wasn't based on the assumption that Rob pointed out.

[Amyers]

Exactly. Rob was making the point that high level bowlers that believe in the arsenal concept should strike 9 out of 10 times when making a ball change on the shot just after making the change.


Still no reason why one could throw a strike 90% of the time after changing balls if you were only striking at 50 or 60% before. "Is it super ball comes to save the day" or something. I agree you should strike at a somewhat higher percentage than you do just taking the ball out of the bag on a practice shot because you have had some idea of the lane condition but you are still rolling the ball without actually seeing its reaction to those conditions. no reason in the world why your strike percentage would be higher.

[rv driver]

Exactly. Rob was making the point that high level bowlers that believe in the arsenal concept should strike 9 out of 10 times when making a ball change on the shot just after making the change.

In other words, and this is a Aslan bowling pet peeve, most bowlers with "arsenals" aren't good enough to justify having them...because many of them make changes for reasons they can't even put into words other than, "That ball isn't striking."

But I agree entirely with Rob on this. I think to truly take advantage of differences in balls, ball manufacturers, and even to a lesser extent ball/drilling specs...you have to have a very consistent game. I'm going to try and work with MWhite on a project where I have 2 balls drilled very differently to see if I can create 2 very different reactions using simply drilling/layout/surface changes. But both Mike and I agree that the biggest "challenge" is whether or not we can accurately see those changes given my below average bowling ability. Rob also made a video in another thread seeing the differences between assymetric and symmetric cores...and we had the discussion...is it that there is no real difference? Or is it that Rob's style/ability doesn't accurately depict the true difference?

I thought a lot about this after going to the coaching seminar last weekend. The instructor said they don't really recommend reactive resin balls or even HOOKING the balls for bowlers until they average about 150. 150!!

Do I agree with that? Well...I see the POINT of it...given the seminar was mainly about youth bowling. I think you want to develop their SKILLS before adding hooking and ball variations. But is that what I'd recommend to an adult?? Probably not. But it IS an illustration of this whole discussion...that ideally...IDEALLY...a person would become accurate and consistent enough with the straight ball...and good enough at shooting spares...THEN you add in hooking the ball...THEN when they get to a very high level you start having arsenals and all that kind of stuff.
I agree with the seminar. Even for adults. Here's why: one has to learn one's "style" and get comfortable with the basics of how and why the ball rolls down the lane, and with how to position and aim the shot. The variables of hooking only serve to obfuscate those basics. Once one has gotten comfortable with a straight shot (which requires discipline of motion and accuracy) one can more readily see how hooking will create a better shot. Then one can tweak the basics with a reactive ball. Further, if one is throwing plastic, one doesn't really need to worry about "oil patterns." One can simply concentrate on form, release, approach, etc. It seems like the reactive issues would work against learning the basics.

[bowl1820]

Still no reason why one could throw a strike 90% of the time after changing balls if you were only striking at 50 or 60% before.

You still don't understand, the 90% doesn't pertain to all the frames you bowl after you change balls.

It's just about the first frame you bowl after changing balls.


It's like someone saying "I have 90% strike percentage on frame 1" that means 9 out of 10 games they got a strike in the first frame of the game. The rest of the frames don't factor into it.

They could throw all gutter balls for frames 2-10 and it would still be a 90% strike percentage on frame 1.




"Is it super ball comes to save the day" or something. I agree you should strike at a somewhat higher percentage than you do just taking the ball out of the bag on a practice shot because you have had some idea of the lane condition but you are still rolling the ball without actually seeing its reaction to those conditions. no reason in the world why your strike percentage would be higher.

[Amyers]

You still don't understand, the 90% doesn't pertain to all the frames you bowl after you change balls.

It's just about the first frame you bowl with that different ball.


It's like someone saying "I have 90% strike percentage on frame 1" that means 9 out of 10 games they got a strike in the first frame of the game. The rest of the frames don't factor into it.

They could throw all gutter balls for frames 2-10 and it would still be a 90% strike percentage on frame 1.

I understand completely you are referring to the percentage of strikes that you throw on your first roll after changing balls. The point I am making is there is no practical reason why that strike percentage would exceed the percentage of strike you throw for the game on average over a period of time. Why would you throw 90% percent if you only throw 60%percent the rest of the time? You might do it for a while but eventually you are going to average back to your normal strike percentage. The only reason I can come up with is if you are paying additional attention to it or something it might raise that percentage but if it does you should start doing whatever it is all the time.

Over a short while I might average 60 percent strikes in the 4th frame but if I do its an anomaly not normal and if I throw enough 4th frames over time it is going to average out to the 40% percent that I normally throw. Again there is no reason why I would throw a higher percentage of strikes in the 4th frame, on a Tuesday, or on even calendar months. If there is an actual logical reason for you to throw a higher percentage of strikes on the first ball after a ball change let me know what it is .

[Aslan]

Further, if one is throwing plastic, one doesn't really need to worry about "oil patterns." One can simply concentrate on form, release, approach, etc. It seems like the reactive issues would work against learning the basics.

I agree. I just worry that if people are throwing plastic and struggling; we may lose them. Personally, I think we should change the oil patterns and pin weights to make the game harder...but I also recognize the downside to that belief.


If there is an actual logical reason for you to throw a higher percentage of strikes on the first ball after a ball change let me know what it is .

Rob's point is, for ADVANCED bowlers...they know their equipment so well...they can predict with a 90% accuracy what ball they could change to that would get them a strike. We're paying too much attentinon to the number (90%) and not enough to the "point".

The POINT is...concerning the original question...for most bowlers skill is 96% and the ball is 4%....because low level bowlers won't see a huge difference from one ball to another. HOWEVER...as bowlers become more advanced...a ball/change in layout/specs can have a bigger impact.

But like I said; it's a dumb arguement because skill SO far outweighs ball that we're arguing about whether a bucket of food coloring makes a river more blue or not. The discussion would make more sense if we split up "skill" into timing, release, stance, swing, slide, etc... and changed "ball" to surface, specs, drilling layout, manufacturer, smell, etc...

One thing I find interesting is;just as an example:
1) I heard one female USBC bowler talk about how the mental game is the most important...visualizing your shot, routine, etc...
2) I heard another female USBC bowler say the most important part of your approach is your starting stance.

For me, I don't think either of those are very important compared to other things (release, timing).

[bowl1820]

If there is an actual logical reason for you to throw a higher percentage of strikes on the first ball after a ball change let me know what it is .

The logical reason is because the ball you were using before wasn't striking enough. So you changed balls And if you knew how your different balls worked and you picked wisely your strike percentage went up.

You change balls To increase the number of strikes (your strike percentage) or at least maintain what you were doing, because you started seeing changes in the shot.

That's the whole point of changing balls in the first place! to increase your strikes.

So as a drill Rob said to look at the strike percentage you have on that first ball after a change. If you have a low percentage on that first ball (have to fish for several frames), then you might need to learn more about how your balls work.

So that you make wise ball changes and not waste frames which in turn will help raise the overall percentage of strikes.

[bowl1820]

Rob's point is, for ADVANCED bowlers....

It's not just for ADVANCED bowlers, knowing how you equipment works compared to each other.

Benefits all bowlers.

[Amyers]

The logical reason is because the ball you were using before either wasn't striking enough or you start seeing changes in the shot.

You changed balls To increase the number of strikes (your overall strike percentage) or at least maintain what you were doing. that's the whole point of changing balls in the first place!

So as a drill Rob said to look at the strike percentage you have on that first ball after a change. If you have a low percentage on that first ball (have to fish for several frames), then you might need to learn more about how your balls work.

So to make wise ball changes and not waste frames and raise that percentage, a bowler needs to know their equipment.

Now your statement I can agree with you should throw a higher percentage of strikes than what you would have if you continued to play that line that has transitioned away.

But that is not what Rob said I went back and reread the original post. His exact words were to track it and you should throw a strike 90% of the time on your first ball after a ball change. I want to meet the person who can do this! Over the long haul no one is going to strike 90% of the time on anything. You could put Belmo on THS and he is not going to strike 90% off the time on a consistent basis more less after a ball change.

As I said earlier the goal should be to reduce the drop off of strike percentage due to the ball change because it's going to be lower than your average overall. I would also say done perfectly (easier said than done) their shouldn't be a significant drop off in strike percentage before your change or your waiting too long to transition.

[bowl1820]

But that is not what Rob said I went back and reread the original post. His exact words were to track it and you should throw a strike 90% of the time on your first ball after a ball change.

Yes that is what Rob said no doubt

Keep track of the percentage of times that you strike on your first shot when you change bowling balls. You should be able to 90% of the time.

and you said

Rob this doesn't make sense. I think you are little high on your number. The pro's don't even strike 90% of the time on average using the same ball. Why would you be able to strike 90% picking one up cold? If you averaged striking 90% percent of the time you would be averaging over 11 strikes a game.

and all I said was that Rob was referring to just the first frame after the ball change not the whole game. Like you implied here in the underlined.



I want to meet the person who can do this! Over the long haul no one is going to strike 90% of the time on anything. You could put Belmo on THS and he is not going to strike 90% off the time on a consistent basis more less after a ball change.

Now as for the 90%
All I said was


"Now is 90% high for that? That I can't say."

Now I don't know if there is any statistical data on strike percentage in the first frame after a ball change. 90% might be too high.

As for Belmo I don't know what his percentage of strikes on the 1 frame after a ball change were talking about, if he can do it or not.



As I said earlier the goal should be to reduce the drop off of strike percentage due to the ball change because it's going to be lower than your average overall. I would also say done perfectly (easier said than done) their shouldn't be a significant drop off in strike percentage before your change or your waiting too long to transition.

And yes that's the goal from learning about your equipment, not to reduce your strike percentage do to a ball change.

and as a drill Rob suggested looking at that first ball strike percentage. if its a low percentage then learn more about your equipment to try and raise it.

And yes you shouldn't be waiting too long to make a change, that's a problem a lot of bowlers have. They notice something might be wrong, but wait too long to make a change either in line or equipment.

[Amyers]

Well I'm pretty sure we agree then Bowl1820 other than I believe I'm pretty sure that 90% on 1st balls after a ball change is unrealistic and I think you are waiting on evidence. Which I have no problem with. You and Rob probably know more about bowling than I ever will but I can't think of a better way to pass the day than having a good discussion about its aspects. Would be interesting to see what some peoples numbers actually ar.

[bowl1820]

Well I'm pretty sure we agree then Bowl1820 other than I believe I'm pretty sure that 90% on 1st balls after a ball change is unrealistic and I think you are waiting on evidence.

Yeah 90% might be high, but without more info we don't know.

The main thing is if that percentage is low, then you do what you can to raise it.

[MICHAEL]

Wow, this thread has gone many different directions! So many average to fair bowlers buy High Performance Balls, thinking its gong to be the Magic ball that gets them that 300 , or 800!

My point is that until you reach a certain level in your bowling SKILLS, the ball is not that magic bullet that will get you there! KNOWLEDGE is very important, in regards to what type of ball, symmetrical, asymmetrical, matte, polish, surface grit, drilling of ball ect ect!

until you know the ABOVE, and all of the ramifications each has in regards to your bowling THAT day on THAT oil pattern, then you are wasting your MONEY buying balls.

KNOWLEDGE is something all bowlers can acquire.

SKILL is something you can improve on with knowledge, and many times coaching!

GIFT,,,, well you either have it or you don't!

So to answer my own question, I would have to say Knowledge, and Skill is what's going to get you to you genetic LIMIT! Yes we all have a level that we are capable of achieving, and you will not go beyond that level!

That's why some people that have been bowling for 20 years, stay within a genetic limit that keeps them either in the 150's,,, 160s,,, 170s,,, ect...

Knowledge and Skill's are important, but The GIFT cannot be leaned, you either GOT IT, or you DON"T!

I have seen this to be TRUE with so many really good bowlers, at several bowing establishments around here.

knowledge, and skills are key to being the BEST YOU CAN BE, but even with that, and the best BALL OUT there for your style of bowling and lanes, you will only go SO FAR and then peak out! To be a 220 and above bower,,,,, it's all I have mentioned and more,,,, THE Genetic GIFT, like with almost all sports.

All you 220 bowlers out there,,,, ICEMAN takes his hat off to you!! YOU not only have the Right Balls, skill, and knowledge, but you have that genetic gift that allows you to have that Strong Average...220 and above! Many of us, will never be where you are regardless of all the best Coaching in the world!



THE GIFT RULES

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/hatsoff_zps16d5fed2.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/hatsoff_zps16d5fed2.jpg.html)

[RobLV1]

This is totally out of control! I will tell you that a couple of weeks ago, just for fun, I kept track of ball changes that I made, and in three sessions (19 games) I changed balls 16 times, and struck on the first shot 15 of the 16 times, and I'M NOT THAT GOOD (Just ask Mike White, he'll tell you). My point is that you have to know your bowling balls backward and forward. The higher your average, the more you need to know them. One of the bowlers that I coach (who, by the way, has a USBC All-Events Eagle on his mantle), realized years ago that he needed to learn more about bowling balls. I told him that if he couldn't change balls in the 10th frame when his shot had gone away, and strike out with the new ball to beat his man, then he didn't know his balls well enough. I still remember the phone call that I got at about 10 p.m. on a Wednesday night, and I could hear the excitment in his voice when he said, "I did it. I changed balls in the tenth frame a struck out to beat my man."

Please don't get hung up on the 90% number. Just learn your bowling balls! I'm getting pretty tired of certain people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to check my posts and try to prove me wrong.

[MICHAEL]

This is totally out of control! I will tell you that a couple of weeks ago, just for fun, I kept track of ball changes that I made, and in three sessions (19 games) I changed balls 16 times, and struck on the first shot 15 of the 16 times, and I'M NOT THAT GOOD (Just ask Mike White, he'll tell you). My point is that you have to know your bowling balls backward and forward. The higher your average, the more you need to know them. One of the bowlers that I coach (who, by the way, has a USBC All-Events Eagle on his mantle), realized years ago that he needed to learn more about bowling balls. I told him that if he couldn't change balls in the 10th frame when his shot had gone away, and strike out with the new ball to beat his man, then he didn't know his balls well enough. I still remember the phone call that I got at about 10 p.m. on a Wednesday night, and I could hear the excitment in his voice when he said, "I did it. I changed balls in the tenth frame a struck out to beat my man."

Please don't get hung up on the 90% number. Just learn your bowling balls! I'm getting pretty tired of certain people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to check my posts and try to prove me wrong.



Who MIGHT THAT BE ROB?????

[Amyers]

This is totally out of control! I will tell you that a couple of weeks ago, just for fun, I kept track of ball changes that I made, and in three sessions (19 games) I changed balls 16 times, and struck on the first shot 15 of the 16 times, and I'M NOT THAT GOOD (Just ask Mike White, he'll tell you). My point is that you have to know your bowling balls backward and forward. The higher your average, the more you need to know them. One of the bowlers that I coach (who, by the way, has a USBC All-Events Eagle on his mantle), realized years ago that he needed to learn more about bowling balls. I told him that if he couldn't change balls in the 10th frame when his shot had gone away, and strike out with the new ball to beat his man, then he didn't know his balls well enough. I still remember the phone call that I got at about 10 p.m. on a Wednesday night, and I could hear the excitment in his voice when he said, "I did it. I changed balls in the tenth frame a struck out to beat my man."

Please don't get hung up on the 90% number. Just learn your bowling balls! I'm getting pretty tired of certain people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to check my posts and try to prove me wrong.

Hey Rob I started this train wreck not Mike. I believe if your hot you can do that and I wasn't disputing the need to know your balls my only real point here is that over the long term for even above average bowlers 90% is not a realistic number over the long term. Mainly what I was saying is if your average is to strike 60% (or whatever yours is) you should strive to get as close to that number as possible. I believe over the long term it will most likely work out to be lower on that first ball your goal should be to have it as close as possible. I just don't believe there is anything magical about a ball change and I don't believe you do either it adds difficulty to the first shot which I believe is the point of your thread.

I really wasn't trying to pick you apart or anything. I just believe we should set goals based on reality. Do you really believe in all honesty that the next time you throw a series of games like that you will more likely go 15 of 16 again or that you will revert to your mean what ever percentage that is (40-50-60%)? My guess over the long term it will revert or you really should consider throwing a different ball each time you could get a lot of 300's that way.

I wasn't trying to be an a** here or mess with your head over the numbers. I have had a really good time with this conversation and I believe there was information that came from this that would be useful.

[Aslan]

It's not just for ADVANCED bowlers, knowing how you equipment works compared to each other.

Benefits all bowlers.

True. But my point was…if a beginner bowler or even average bowler is missing their targets or has bad timing or any of the other 6- things that could keep them from performing well…a change to another ball will not only NOT be likely to help their situation…you also may see no effect.

[RobLV1]

Please keep in mind that we are talking about a house shot. When were are bowling well on a house shot and have the right ball in our hand and are playing the right part of the lane, we have room to miss - that's what makes it a house shot. When the shot changes, a viable option is often to change balls. That's where that 90% number comes from. Consider that four things are going on: 1) you are throwing the ball well, 2) you already know the path to the pocket, 3) you know that your line is finished based on your last shot, and 4) you know your bowling balls well enough to know what ball will allow you to play that line for another frame or two. Given that scenario, why is a strike percentage that is higher than your overall percentage so hard to believe? It is a very specific situation that does not happen all of the time, but when it does, you should be able to make the change and strike on your first shot. The actual percentage depends on your own level and ability.

[rv driver]

True. But my point was…if a beginner bowler or even average bowler is missing their targets or has bad timing or any of the other 6- things that could keep them from performing well…a change to another ball will not only NOT be likely to help their situation…you also may see no effect.
the effectiveness/usefulness of the ball depends GREATLY upon the consistency of the approach/swing/delivery. Although Rob is essentially correct, if I read him correctly, the strike probability based on knowledge of the ball will ONLY go up if the player has a consistent approach/swing/delivery.

[dnhoffman]

I've never seen a bowling bowl advertised as having an effect on a bowlers accuracy, consistency, mechanics, release, or knowledge.

I would say, the better the bowler, the less % of effect the ball has.

[rv driver]

Please keep in mind that we are talking about a house shot. When were are bowling well on a house shot and have the right ball in our hand and are playing the right part of the lane, we have room to miss - that's what makes it a house shot. When the shot changes, a viable option is often to change balls. That's where that 90% number comes from. Consider that four things are going on: 1) you are throwing the ball well, 2) you already know the path to the pocket, 3) you know that your line is finished based on your last shot, and 4) you know your bowling balls well enough to know what ball will allow you to play that line for another frame or two. Given that scenario, why is a strike percentage that is higher than your overall percentage so hard to believe? It is a very specific situation that does not happen all of the time, but when it does, you should be able to make the change and strike on your first shot. The actual percentage depends on your own level and ability.
the real trick is to know one thing: Whether the reason the shot isn't working anymore is because the line is breaking down, or because you're doing something weird to the shot.

[rv driver]

I've never seen a bowling bowl advertised as having an effect on a bowlers accuracy, consistency, mechanics, release, or knowledge.

I would say, the better the bowler, the less % of effect the ball has.
It doesn't; that's not what I meant. The bowler's accuracy and consistency, mechanics, release & knowledge all have to be in place in order for the ball to do what it's intended to do.

If I understand you correctly, the ball will make a good bowler better, because the ball will maximize an already good shot. BUT ... the ball will only frustrate the inconsistent bowler.

[Amyers]

Please keep in mind that we are talking about a house shot. When were are bowling well on a house shot and have the right ball in our hand and are playing the right part of the lane, we have room to miss - that's what makes it a house shot. When the shot changes, a viable option is often to change balls. That's where that 90% number comes from. Consider that four things are going on: 1) you are throwing the ball well, 2) you already know the path to the pocket, 3) you know that your line is finished based on your last shot, and 4) you know your bowling balls well enough to know what ball will allow you to play that line for another frame or two. Given that scenario, why is a strike percentage that is higher than your overall percentage so hard to believe? It is a very specific situation that does not happen all of the time, but when it does, you should be able to make the change and strike on your first shot. The actual percentage depends on your own level and ability.

I understand you have some things you know in this situation which does help and if you know your equipment well and understand the lanes conditions correctly you have an excellent chance of throwing a high quality shot but here is what I am getting at I believe you are looking at this as being "hot" I've thrown the last 4 strikes in a row but that last one looks like the shot is about to change I'm going to my next step you should be highly confident you are going to throw number five with the new ball. I am looking at this as more of a learning too and I can't say that I really believe in being "hot" either but over the long term "hot" "cold" "indifferent" ant time you change balls I do not believe you are going to average and that's the key word higher on this first ball than you do for the rest of your games. If we accept on average that a 220 bowler is pretty good and they will have a strike percentage of 60% or so why do you expect that it will go up 30% because they changed balls? the 4 reasons that I agreed helped you in your previous post you should have those very early in your first game hopefully your locked into those during warm ups before you throw the first frame (doesn't always happen for me but I don't average 220 either). I don't know I just haven't really heard anyone give a good reason to expect that as I say over the long term why that average would be any higher than your normal strike average.

I can think of reasons it would be lower 1. you transitioned to early. 2. the ball you transitioned to uses a slightly different shape and maybe using an untested part of the lane. 3. Transitioning due to the fact you don't like how your ball is hitting the pins i.e. blaming a you problem on the lanes (see that a lot). I am sure there are other factors here to the negative that I'm just not thinking about.

I just haven't seen anyone give a reason here why you would be 30% more likely to strike here than you would in the 3rd frame or the 8th frame. In a small sample size yes you could be at 90%, I'm sure I could go through all of my games and pick out 10 game stretches where I stuck on my first ball in the tenth frame 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean I should set a goal of having a strike percentage of 90% for the tenth frame? No if I expand my sample size its going to be very close to my average strike percentage there is no real reason I should strike at a higher percentage in the 10th than there is a reason why you would strike at a higher percentage after a ball change

[rv driver]

I understand you have some things you know in this situation which does help and if you know your equipment well and understand the lanes conditions correctly you have an excellent chance of throwing a high quality shot but here is what I am getting at I believe you are looking at this as being "hot" I've thrown the last 4 strikes in a row but that last one looks like the shot is about to change I'm going to my next step you should be highly confident you are going to throw number five with the new ball. I am looking at this as more of a learning too and I can't say that I really believe in being "hot" either but over the long term "hot" "cold" "indifferent" ant time you change balls I do not believe you are going to average and that's the key word higher on this first ball than you do for the rest of your games. If we accept on average that a 220 bowler is pretty good and they will have a strike percentage of 60% or so why do you expect that it will go up 30% because they changed balls? the 4 reasons that I agreed helped you in your previous post you should have those very early in your first game hopefully your locked into those during warm ups before you throw the first frame (doesn't always happen for me but I don't average 220 either). I don't know I just haven't really heard anyone give a good reason to expect that as I say over the long term why that average would be any higher than your normal strike average.

I can think of reasons it would be lower 1. you transitioned to early. 2. the ball you transitioned to uses a slightly different shape and maybe using an untested part of the lane. 3. Transitioning due to the fact you don't like how your ball is hitting the pins i.e. blaming a you problem on the lanes (see that a lot). I am sure there are other factors here to the negative that I'm just not thinking about.

I just haven't seen anyone give a reason here why you would be 30% more likely to strike here than you would in the 3rd frame or the 8th frame. In a small sample size yes you could be at 90%, I'm sure I could go through all of my games and pick out 10 game stretches where I stuck on my first ball in the tenth frame 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean I should set a goal of having a strike percentage of 90% for the tenth frame? No if I expand my sample size its going to be very close to my average strike percentage there is no real reason I should strike at a higher percentage in the 10th than there is a reason why you would strike at a higher percentage after a ball change
Here's what Rob said:

A 160 average bowler will probably not see a difference in bowling balls. A 190+ average bowler will not only see a difference, they will see that the difference will have a huge impact on their averages. Most 220+ bowlers already know the differences.
Sums it up right there. A lower average bowler isn't going to see a difference. To a higher average player, however, the differences become quite apparent, and it behooves the higher average bowler to learn those differences.

It's math. We're only talking a percentage of a very small slice of the total game/total bowler's history. When you do that, percentages change. There are constants (what the ball is designed to do) and there are variables (lane conditions, bowling streak, consistency of the bowler, and bowler's knowledge of the ball and the changing lane conditions). Given the constants and variables of the specific shot, the bowler with the right variables should be able to equate to the constant of "what the ball is designed to do," and thus make the ball do what it's designed to do. If the right variables are in place, guess what?? the ball will do what it's designed to do, i.e., strike. If the variables are in place, allowing for minute differences in human error, the ball has an extremely high chance of doing its job. It doesn't matter what the bowler's average is. It doesn't matter how well the bowler is doing that night. It only matters that the bowler is plugging in the right variables that one, single time.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It isn't that the ball magically makes you bowl better. It's that, given the right variables, a ball will do what it's designed to do. Probably 90% of the time. The percentage, you see, is all about the ball doing its job -- not about whether the bowler is consistent.

[MICHAEL]

What do I know, I have only been bowling for a little over 3 years, but I am going to come right out and SAY IT! Just like in the John F Kennedy movie, There is no Magic Bullet, say with Bowling BALLS!

Do balls make a difference on given lanes, YES! Are they Magic, NO!

Knowledge, Skill, and the Gift are what make a 220 and above bowler!

Its like what makes a great painter,,, can you be coached, and trained to be a GREAT PAINTER,,, NO! Can coaching, lessons help,,, sure to a degree, but greatness is a GIFT! I stand by that and challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

Did I bowl two 300 within 6 months of one another not long ago, alonge with a dozen or so 700, best being that 780, YES!

Is Iceman a great bowler,,, ABSOLUTLY NO!! I just have my senior moments now and then!

I wish I could explain how the above happened.

IF IT WAS THE BALL, why hasen't it happen more often,,,,,The Iq pearl, and the virtual gravity nanno pearl?????

I can't say it was luck on the last 300,,,, They were all solid Pocket hits,,, ask James the our alley pro who was watching,,,, My second game was ( WHAT LOOKED LIKE GOOD POCKET HITS, but a carry problem, thus the 216.

Then the final game 8 stirkes in a role, ICEMAN THOUGHT ANOTHER 300, and 800 plus series, but fell short with a 264!

I am NOT A GREAT BOWLER, I don't have that coveted 220 average! I have a lot of respect for those who do, regardless of how many 300's or 800 they may or man not have.

I think Its not JUST A GIVEN BALL, but its a Given ball on a certain day, that many other things have to fall into PLACE FOR A BOWLER LIKE MYSELF!
to accomplish the above.

I am not bragging Mike White and Granny, its hard for me to understand how it happened so easily on the days it happen!

Maybe that's why I love Bowling!

Do I HAVE THE GIFT,,, AGAIN... NO! LoL,,,, do I wish, I did,,, you damn RIGHT! But maybe it would not be as much FUN IF I DID! I know of a number of bowlers around here that throw 300s like chickens lay eggs, and 700s quit often! It doesn't even get a rise when announced!

You guys and gals out there with the 220 and above averages, DO HAVE THE GIFT!! CONGRATULATIONS!!! To me its like a Par golfer, with no handicap!

When I rolled my first one it was a moment I will never forget,

you would have thought I won the lottery... LOL...

People and friends buying me drinks ect... MY WIFE brought me a jigger, and remember, ( ICEMAN does not DRIK), of butterscotch snoops,,,,which was VERY THOUGHTFUL since I was throwing a Storm IQ Pearl, (the one with the butterscotch smell)!

YES EVERYONE, My name is Michael, and I am a bowl-A-Hall-ick!!! LOL

[Amyers]

Here's what Rob said:

Sums it up right there. A lower average bowler isn't going to see a difference. To a higher average player, however, the differences become quite apparent, and it behooves the higher average bowler to learn those differences.

It's math. We're only talking a percentage of a very small slice of the total game/total bowler's history. When you do that, percentages change. There are constants (what the ball is designed to do) and there are variables (lane conditions, bowling streak, consistency of the bowler, and bowler's knowledge of the ball and the changing lane conditions). Given the constants and variables of the specific shot, the bowler with the right variables should be able to equate to the constant of "what the ball is designed to do," and thus make the ball do what it's designed to do. If the right variables are in place, guess what?? the ball will do what it's designed to do, i.e., strike. If the variables are in place, allowing for minute differences in human error, the ball has an extremely high chance of doing its job. It doesn't matter what the bowler's average is. It doesn't matter how well the bowler is doing that night. It only matters that the bowler is plugging in the right variables that one, single time.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It isn't that the ball magically makes you bowl better. It's that, given the right variables, a ball will do what it's designed to do. Probably 90% of the time. The percentage, you see, is all about the ball doing its job -- not about whether the bowler is consistent.

RV your confusing two different things here together:

#1. Rob and I have been discussing strike percentages after a ball change for higher level players
#2. The second part of this is Aslan and Rob discussing the effect of different balls on lower level players

Two completely different arguments

I will give you my take on part 2 of this since I haven't commented on it:

Depending on how they throw balls can make very little difference or a bunch of difference for low and mid tier bowlers. It all depends on bowling style.

It doesn't really matter if Aslan throws a low end low hooking resin ball or a top of the line hook monster its not moving much due to his low rev style he has commented on it here before and he knows the flaws of it and I don't say that to take away from him but it is what it is and he knows that.

I'm a low to medium speed medium rev guy it makes a difference what I throw if I take a hook monster out of the bag on low oil conditions I'm going to struggle to keep it in the pocket.

Just for an example about two weeks ago I challenged one of the older guys on our leagues to a match. Best out of 5 with two caveats he could only bring one ball his Brunswick Mastermind and we had to have the match before lunch on a Monday. This guy is better than me 205 average I am about 150 (should be higher but I've been working on some stuff) but even then at my best I'm only 170-180 currently in my opinion. Stakes $50: This match was over before it ever started and I knew as he learned on Monday he had 0 chance.

His style is a lower speed high loft delivery they don't oil the lanes on the weekend at my house during the summer. They are dry as a bone on Monday mornings he couldn't even keep his mastermind in the Brooklyn pocket lofting the gutter. We didn't bother throwing game 5 and I beat him by over 200 pins in the 4 games. It was all ball he is a much more skilled bowler than I but I knew the conditions at my house during those hours and I knew how his ball/style would be effected by it. That Mastermind is his favorite ball for leagues so it wasn't that.

Same deal my only ball at the moment is a low-medium oil ball you put me in a swamp a lower ability bowler could beat me with the right equipment.

[rv driver]

RV your confusing two different things here together:

#1. Rob and I have been discussing strike percentages after a ball change for higher level players
#2. The second part of this is Aslan and Rob discussing the effect of different balls on lower level players

Two completely different arguments

I will give you my take on part 2 of this since I haven't commented on it:

Depending on how they throw balls can make very little difference or a bunch of difference for low and mid tier bowlers. It all depends on bowling style.

It doesn't really matter if Aslan throws a low end low hooking resin ball or a top of the line hook monster its not moving much due to his low rev style he has commented on it here before and he knows the flaws of it and I don't say that to take away from him but it is what it is and he knows that.

I'm a low to medium speed medium rev guy it makes a difference what I throw if I take a hook monster out of the bag on low oil conditions I'm going to struggle to keep it in the pocket.

Just for an example about two weeks ago I challenged one of the older guys on our leagues to a match. Best out of 5 with two caveats he could only bring one ball his Brunswick Mastermind and we had to have the match before lunch on a Monday. This guy is better than me 205 average I am about 150 (should be higher but I've been working on some stuff) but even then at my best I'm only 170-180 currently in my opinion. Stakes $50: This match was over before it ever started and I knew as he learned on Monday he had 0 chance.

His style is a lower speed high loft delivery they don't oil the lanes on the weekend at my house during the summer. They are dry as a bone on Monday mornings he couldn't even keep his mastermind in the Brooklyn pocket lofting the gutter. We didn't bother throwing game 5 and I beat him by over 200 pins in the 4 games. It was all ball he is a much more skilled bowler than I but I knew the conditions at my house during those hours and I knew how his ball/style would be effected by it. That Mastermind is his favorite ball for leagues so it wasn't that.

Same deal my only ball at the moment is a low-medium oil ball you put me in a swamp a lower ability bowler could beat me with the right equipment.
Exactly. The variables weren't in place for that ball. All things being equal, a lower-skill player won't see as much difference in balls as a highly-skilled player.

Thanks for the example! It illustrates what knowledge can do.

[MICHAEL]

True. But my point was…if a beginner bowler or even average bowler is missing their targets or has bad timing or any of the other 6- things that could keep them from performing well…a change to another ball will not only NOT be likely to help their situation…you also may see no effect.

Having the knowledge you have now, even giving lots of advise, ( now don't get me WRONG Aslan), but why is your average where its at??? Do you think your at the place you might be, (average wise), even next year, or 21 years from now?? Your very analytical, and have the knowledge, you have no physical handicaps, what up?? COULD IT BE THE GIFT? Do you even conceive this next fall ending with a 200 average or above? YOU HAVE acquired much more knowledge then me, your much younger then me. To answer my own question......

I don't think so,,, their is something in both of us that doesn't allow the mind, body to functions in a manner that gives us that average. Sure I do have my MOMENTS, games and series once in a while, but I feel I will probably never achieve that 220 average!

since your not a beginner bowler, and you mention bowling even as a kid with relatives.... could my opinion about GOOD BOWLERS with 220 averages are GIFTED, and in reality most never make that level due to their DNA.

NO BALL will get us there, and skill, and coaching can only get you so far!

. Prove me wrong, but after observing many bowlers, and talking to most of them about knowledge, and even coaching, many never reach that pentacle, that have been bowling for many years! Yet some pick it of rather quickly, the gifted ones, where bowling comes naturally, along with the high averages.

Do you think we both are doomed to 200 and below? I heard they do have a DNA test out now that dictates your probability of being a poor, average, good, and excellent bowler!

It cost about 1500.00 buck... I am trying to talk them down in price, even trade a couple balls for the test.

Aslan I know you love to bowl, but is your DNA more set up to be a lover, not a bowler????

Reality Check ,,,, over! LOL

P.S. Iceman The Same,,, I think I am doomed to 190 to 200, cliff note! LOL

But guess what,,, I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT BOWLING,,,,, and on occasions, something GREAT HAPPENS, for Both of us!

Your Great victories against Mike, the man that knows bowling maybe EVEN better then ROB!!!!!!,,,,,,,,, And my ability to pull a 300, or high 700 out of my ask!!! LOL LOL

I can think of worse fates my friend!!! We are much alike Aslan, other then I am much better looking, with more miles on my engine then you! Hang In There My Friend!@!

[Amyers]

Having the knowledge you have now, even giving lots of advise, ( now don't get me WRONG Aslan), but why is your average where its at??? Do you think your at the place you might be, (average wise), even next year, or 21 years from now?? Your very analytical, and have the knowledge, you have no physical handicaps, what up?? COULD IT BE THE GIFT? Do you even conceive this next fall ending with a 200 average or above? YOU HAVE acquired much more knowledge then me, your much younger then me. To answer my own question......

I don't think so,,, their is something in both of us that doesn't allow the mind, body to functions in a manner that gives us that average. Sure I do have my MOMENTS, games and series once in a while, but I feel I will probably never achieve that 220 average!

since your not a beginner bowler, and you mention bowling even as a kid with relatives.... could my opinion about GOOD BOWLERS with 220 averages are GIFTED, and in reality most never make that level due to their DNA.

NO BALL will get us there, and skill, and coaching can only get you so far!

. Prove me wrong, but after observing many bowlers, and talking to most of them about knowledge, and even coaching, many never reach that pentacle, that have been bowling for many years! Yet some pick it of rather quickly, the gifted ones, where bowling comes naturally, along with the high averages.

Do you think we both are doomed to 200 and below? I heard they do have a DNA test out now that dictates your probability of being a poor, average, good, and excellent bowler!

It cost about 1500.00 buck... I am trying to talk them down in price, even trade a couple balls for the test.

Aslan I know you love to bowl, but is your DNA more set up to be a lover, not a bowler????

Reality Check ,,,, over! LOL

P.S. Iceman The Same,,, I think I am doomed to 190 to 200, cliff note! LOL

But guess what,,, I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT BOWLING,,,,, and on occasions, something GREAT HAPPENS, for Both of us!

Your Great victories against Mike, the man that knows bowling maybe EVEN better then ROB!!!!!!,,,,,,,,, And my ability to pull a 300, or high 700 out of my ask!!! LOL LOL

I can think of worse fates my friend!!! We are much alike Aslan, other then I am much better looking, with more miles on my engine then you! Hang In There My Friend!@!

Iceman You and Aslan haven't been doing this seriously that long. You are both still young in the sport. The difference between 200 and 220 is not that great it's one less split that leaves and open or and extra strike and spare a game its not daylight and dark. I have been bowling for a long time I started bowling youth leagues when I was 9 bowled until I was 18 average went from 67 to 197 (back in the old days when scores were lower) quit for 20 years now trying to come back to it. I didn't go to that 197 average at year three.

I believe there is something to your gift philosophy some people pick this game up faster than others. I have seen guys pick a house ball up off the rack and throw in the 150's never a lesson or practice in their life. I have seen a lot of them crash and burn when they developed a glitch along the way too. I am sure at that pro level they just have something that most of us don't have. Their is also a desire level and a time commitment that a lot of us just can't make. I was talking to the bowling center manager the other day who is about my age about when he started he has a 208 average which is towards the top at my house he started bowling about 6 years ago started in a league really liked it actually quit his job as a GM for Taco Bell to run the bowling center so he would have more practice time. He bowled 15 to 20 games a day working with a former PBA player who used to own our alley for almost 2 years before he broke 200 in his league average. This guy has won some decent size tournaments now and is pretty successful bowler.

For most of us this just isn't an option I can't bowl everyday and I don't have that access to a former PBA player anymore (I have worked with him in the past when I was a kid). I hope I can get to that 200 average but I don't think its going to be this fall or probably even next fall.

The other things is the ability and will to take the hit and fix our problems. I know my problem is accuracy issues part of the reason why I'm changing to a 5 step delivery which is hurting my averages right now. I personally think Aslan is going to have to break down and take a step backward to go forward and start developing his revs if we wants to take that next step. He might disagree with me on that. I don't know your game well enough Iceman to see what your issue is that holds you back but I'm sure you know what it is. Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?

[MICHAEL]

Iceman You and Aslan haven't been doing this seriously that long. You are both still young in the sport. The difference between 200 and 220 is not that great it's one less split that leaves and open or and extra strike and spare a game its not daylight and dark. I have been bowling for a long time I started bowling youth leagues when I was 9 bowled until I was 18 average went from 67 to 197 (back in the old days when scores were lower) quit for 20 years now trying to come back to it. I didn't go to that 197 average at year three.

I believe there is something to your gift philosophy some people pick this game up faster than others. I have seen guys pick a house ball up off the rack and throw in the 150's never a lesson or practice in their life. I have seen a lot of them crash and burn when they developed a glitch along the way too. I am sure at that pro level they just have something that most of us don't have. Their is also a desire level and a time commitment that a lot of us just can't make. I was talking to the bowling center manager the other day who is about my age about when he started he has a 208 average which is towards the top at my house he started bowling about 6 years ago started in a league really liked it actually quit his job as a GM for Taco Bell to run the bowling center so he would have more practice time. He bowled 15 to 20 games a day working with a former PBA player who used to own our alley for almost 2 years before he broke 200 in his league average. This guy has won some decent size tournaments now and is pretty successful bowler.

For most of us this just isn't an option I can't bowl everyday and I don't have that access to a former PBA player anymore (I have worked with him in the past when I was a kid). I hope I can get to that 200 average but I don't think its going to be this fall or probably even next fall.

The other things is the ability and will to take the hit and fix our problems. I know my problem is accuracy issues part of the reason why I'm changing to a 5 step delivery which is hurting my averages right now. I personally think Aslan is going to have to break down and take a step backward to go forward and start developing his revs if we wants to take that next step. He might disagree with me on that. I don't know your game well enough Iceman to see what your issue is that holds you back but I'm sure you know what it is. Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/foolishtook/LOL/tumblr_left6jQebn1qf8yek.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/foolishtook/media/LOL/tumblr_left6jQebn1qf8yek.gif.html)

Thanks bud for the KIND WORDS,,,, brought tears to my eyes,,,, or should I say Ice droplets! Maybe there is HOPE FOR Aslan, and Iceman,,,good points!!

[Aslan]

Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?

One thing that amazes me is when you hear about a high level PBA pro that "took a step back and changed their game." I mean, for someone at MY level that would just like to get competitive on the amateur circuits...to think that a legend like Chris Barnes or Mike Fagan would change something when they can average 247 on a THS pattern without changing ANYTHING...is humbling.

[Amyers]

One thing that amazes me is when you hear about a high level PBA pro that "took a step back and changed their game." I mean, for someone at MY level that would just like to get competitive on the amateur circuits...to think that a legend like Chris Barnes or Mike Fagan would change something when they can average 247 on a THS pattern without changing ANYTHING...is humbling.

Those guys go through down streaks and get stuff messed up in their deliveries the same way we do. In my opinion they biggest differences in coming back from it is they have instant access to high level coaching and nobody is going to charge them 3 bucks a pop or more to come in and work on their game. Even with that you see these guys get in slumps that last for months. when everything is great the game looks easy when something is wrong its the hardest game on the planet.

[rv driver]

Those guys go through down streaks and get stuff messed up in their deliveries the same way we do. In my opinion they biggest differences in coming back from it is they have instant access to high level coaching and nobody is going to charge them 3 bucks a pop or more to come in and work on their game. Even with that you see these guys get in slumps that last for months. when everything is great the game looks easy when something is wrong its the hardest game on the planet.
I just wanna get to the place where I have more good days than bad ones...