Video of Norm Duke against Chris Barnes....

[Hammer]

At the end of this video Norm explains how he beat Chris playing more straight up with a Storm Marble Pearl. He stayed in the same area of his shot in the three previous matches. So you guys that are more of a straight up player still have a chance against power players playing deep. Listen to Norm's game plan at the end of the video.
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAPAGrUhps

[Aslan]

He wasn't really playing straight in terms of what we might think is "straight". I mean, his slide foot was markedly left of center. But he was playing what I'd call the "middle". It's a game I'm trying to develop. Where you can throw it through that heavy oil in the center and have it bite just to the right of the oil and then get back into the pocket.

Hate to see Barnes lose, he's my #3 favorite bowler…but hey, Duke beat Belmonte and thats all that matters really.

[MICHAEL]

He wasn't really playing straight in terms of what we might think is "straight". I mean, his slide foot was markedly left of center. But he was playing what I'd call the "middle". It's a game I'm trying to develop. Where you can throw it through that heavy oil in the center and have it bite just to the right of the oil and then get back into the pocket.

Hate to see Barnes lose, he's my #3 favorite bowler…but hey, Duke beat Belmonte and thats all that matters really.

I bowl pretty similar line,,, right foot center marker, and shot between 10 and 15! I just wish I had his ability! Maybe next year!!!

Just stared playing the inside, which is fun, and when its working it looks great, but I need to make adjustments when its JUST NOT ON!

It seems to me the inside is a lot more tricky to play then the outside on house oil! Maybe my mind will change as I get more use to it!

[tccstudent]

STORM MARBLE PEARL wow that must take some great accuracy to win using a marble.
Norm is one of my favorite of all time then man is just awesome and is a real nice guy too. Not like some of the pompus pricks on tour like Barnes and WRW

[RobLV1]

When Norm is talking about "playing straight" he is not talking about the part of the lane that he is playing. He's talking about the rotation that he is putting on the ball. Norm's strength, like Walter Ray's strength, is his incredible accuracy. These guys think in terms of hitting a certain part of a board at the arrows, as well as a single board down the lane. When Norm chooses to play that straight shot, he does so knowing that his angle to the pocket, and therefore his ability to carry the corners, is totally dependent on perfect accuracy and perfect consistency in his release. When he finds that hooking the ball will give him better carry, he can move in and play the fourth arrow with the best of them.

By the way, there is nothing pompus about Walter Ray; he's a pretty shy individual. In terms of Barnes, he often comes accross as arrogant, but when you get the opportunity to talk to him individually, he's actually a pretty nice guy. I think that his arrogance is a way of keeping people at arms' length when he is trying to earn his living.

[MICHAEL]

When Norm is talking about "playing straight" he is not talking about the part of the lane that he is playing. He's talking about the rotation that he is putting on the ball. Norm's strength, like Walter Ray's strength, is his incredible accuracy. These guys think in terms of hitting a certain part of a board at the arrows, as well as a single board down the lane. When Norm chooses to play that straight shot, he does so knowing that his angle to the pocket, and therefore his ability to carry the corners, is totally dependent on perfect accuracy and perfect consistency in his release. When he finds that hooking the ball will give him better carry, he can move in and play the fourth arrow with the best of them.

By the way, there is nothing pompus about Walter Ray; he's a pretty shy individual. In terms of Barnes, he often comes accross as arrogant, but when you get the opportunity to talk to him individually, he's actually a pretty nice guy. I think that his arrogance is a way of keeping people at arms' length when he is trying to earn his living.

GOOD insights!! I am a Duke fan also.

If Iceman had to bowl either one of the above for Big Bucks, my choice would be Barnes!! He is beatable!!

[Aslan]

By the way, there is nothing pompus about Walter Ray; he's a pretty shy individual. In terms of Barnes, he often comes accross as arrogant, but when you get the opportunity to talk to him individually, he's actually a pretty nice guy. I think that his arrogance is a way of keeping people at arms' length when he is trying to earn his living.

Yeah...I've never heard of WRW being called "pompus". I've heard shy and aloof and sometimes clumsy with a weird sense of humor...but not arrogant or pompus. Barnes I guess it's how you read him. He's more intellectual so he may sometimes come off as aloof...but I don't think that's intentional.

But is anyone at their level really super approachable and nice? I've gotten "attitude" from even non-PBA or former PBA guys that I've come across. I think it's part of the "gig". What, you're telling me other pro athletes are awesome and go out of their way to hang around with you? Doubtful.

I've criticized PDW for his reactions toward fans and have been told he's not "as bad" in person when he's not bowling under the lights. I gotta think that Barnes and WRW are nicer than PDW.

It's also that fans can be dip****s sometimes. Like, during the live streaming of the Masters. If you read the comments...they were the most dimwitted collection of nonsense. Guys asking WRW if he would give them a lesson or what his league average is on a THS pattern or how how to drill their bowling ball or what bowling ball to buy...just dumb stuff. Another example, that coaching seminar I went to...the instructor was Missy Parkin. There were at least two young guys in there that kept straying off the topic of youth coaching and asking her stuff like, "One problem I have is how do I do X with my release...etc..." I mean, anyone with any common sense could tell that she was there to teach a youth bowling seminar and not give private lessons to people...but they kept asking her those type of questions...DESPITE it being obvious that she wasn't really there for that. She was nice about it, kinda half answered their questions...but some people...just lack awareness.

I'm the opposite. If I see a celebrity...I don't really like approaching them. I met Bob Probert once...like my 2nd favorite hockey player of all time...but I didn't even act like I knew who he was because he was out with his family and I just didn't think it was appropriate. You'd be surprised how little situational awareness most people have.

[Amyers]

You'd be surprised how little situational awareness most people have.

The average person is an idiot most of the time. especially when it comes to our interests

[Aslan]

It seems to me the inside is a lot more tricky to play then the outside on house oil! Maybe my mind will change as I get more use to it!

The problem with playing the inside is the same as the problem with high rev releases in general. You ultimate success is greatly a function of lane condition. Throwing straighter takes the lane condition out of the equation to some extent.

A perfect example of this is the epic and ongoing battle between the The Mighty Aslan and The Great MWhite. I am not nearly as skilled as Mike. My release pales in comparison. He has over 30 years of experience on me. BUT...his high rev release is greatly affected by lane conditions. We saw that in the 1ABHSCAVZD Invitational when his ball could NOT find the pocket due to the strange oil pattern. We saw it again on super-dry wood lanes when even his weak plastic balls couldn't stay right of the headpin. I've seen it watching thumbless bowler teammates and watching 2-handed bowlers at local tournaments as well. If you rely on the revs...then you rely on the oil pattern. And if that oil pattern starts giving you problems...you could have an awful night/afternoon.

Throwing straight takes the oil out of the equation to some extent. It's still an issue that needs to be considered and navigated...but it's not absolutely crucial nor detrimental the way it is for a higher rev dominant player. But, the downside to the straight game is it requires the accuracy of an Earl Anthony, WRW, Norm Duke...because you don't have the cushion of pin carry/power. And if you miss a little right...spare...you miss a little left...split.

I've been trying to become a straighter bowler...even straighter than before. I'm trying to get my accuracy to that level where your timing is consistent and you can aim at "parts" of a board the way Rob was saying. My reasoning is, the BIGGEST difference between a pro and an amateur (at the end of the day) is a pro can hit their spot with a margin of error of < 1 inch. Amateur bowlers have a much, much higher margin of missing. So if thats the biggest difference...and you can fix THAT...while at the same time improve your spare shooting accuracy...the strikes will eventually come. Rather than the opposite and more popular approach of trying to develop the most revs and most radical angle into the pocket and most power and try to develop a large enough arsenal that you never need to change your game...you just change your ball.

[Amyers]

The problem with playing the inside is the same as the problem with high rev releases in general. You ultimate success is greatly a function of lane condition. Throwing straighter takes the lane condition out of the equation to some extent.

A perfect example of this is the epic and ongoing battle between the The Mighty Aslan and The Great MWhite. I am not nearly as skilled as Mike. My release pales in comparison. He has over 30 years of experience on me. BUT...his high rev release is greatly affected by lane conditions. We saw that in the 1ABHSCAVZD Invitational when his ball could NOT find the pocket due to the strange oil pattern. We saw it again on super-dry wood lanes when even his weak plastic balls couldn't stay right of the headpin. I've seen it watching thumbless bowler teammates and watching 2-handed bowlers at local tournaments as well. If you rely on the revs...then you rely on the oil pattern. And if that oil pattern starts giving you problems...you could have an awful night/afternoon.

Throwing straight takes the oil out of the equation to some extent. It's still an issue that needs to be considered and navigated...but it's not absolutely crucial nor detrimental the way it is for a higher rev dominant player. But, the downside to the straight game is it requires the accuracy of an Earl Anthony, WRW, Norm Duke...because you don't have the cushion of pin carry/power. And if you miss a little right...spare...you miss a little left...split.

I've been trying to become a straighter bowler...even straighter than before. I'm trying to get my accuracy to that level where your timing is consistent and you can aim at "parts" of a board the way Rob was saying. My reasoning is, the BIGGEST difference between a pro and an amateur (at the end of the day) is a pro can hit their spot with a margin of error of < 1 inch. Amateur bowlers have a much, much higher margin of missing. So if thats the biggest difference...and you can fix THAT...while at the same time improve your spare shooting accuracy...the strikes will eventually come. Rather than the opposite and more popular approach of trying to develop the most revs and most radical angle into the pocket and most power and try to develop a large enough arsenal that you never need to change your game...you just change your ball.

I have to say I think I disagree with almost everything in this post.

1."The problem with playing the inside is the same as the problem with high rev releases in general. You ultimate success is greatly a function of lane condition. Throwing straighter takes the lane condition out of the equation to some extent." It doesn't matter whether you are throwing straighter on looping the lane the conditions matter. There is a difference between throwing inside, outside, or just having no revs your in that camp Aslan.

2. It has been shown since forever that hooking the ball leads to better scoring than throwing straight why are there no straight ball players on the tour right now

"Throwing straight takes the oil out of the equation to some extent. It's still an issue that needs to be considered and navigated...but it's not absolutely crucial nor detrimental the way it is for a higher rev dominant player. But, the downside to the straight game is it requires the accuracy of an Earl Anthony, WRW, Norm Duke...because you don't have the cushion of pin carry/power. And if you miss a little right...spare...you miss a little left...split."

1.Earl Anthony, WRW, and Norm Duke do not throw a low rev or straight style even when Norm is playing outside his rev rate is still 250-300. Earl Anthony bowled in a different era with different conditions and balls but even from what I have seen with that old equipment he still had some movement on the ball.


"I've been trying to become a straighter bowler...even straighter than before. I'm trying to get my accuracy to that level where your timing is consistent and you can aim at "parts" of a board the way Rob was saying. My reasoning is, the BIGGEST difference between a pro and an amateur (at the end of the day) is a pro can hit their spot with a margin of error of < 1 inch. Amateur bowlers have a much, much higher margin of missing."

1. the biggest difference between pro bowler and amateur bowlers is not their accuracy. it's the combination of accuracy, power, and rev rate. Having one is easy, get two your pretty good, and if you add the third your going to be truly high level. Just accuracy with out the other 2 is useless.

2. On THS the area that can get you a consistent strike is 3 to 5 boards wide too many people get hung up on trying to cut boards in half and mess there head up. If you really want to know how the pro's are as dominate as they are they know how to make their targets wider t maximize their chances. It is as much about creating yourself a 3 board target and your opponent having a smaller window.

"Rather than the opposite and more popular approach of trying to develop the most revs and most radical angle into the pocket and most power and try to develop a large enough arsenal that you never need to change your game...you just change your ball."

1. I'm not saying you need 400 or 500 revs or have to throw at 20 miles per hour to be very successful but if you think that you are going to keep your 130rpm release and just throw more accurately and compete at a very high level I think you are wasting your time. The big hook not necessary some hook is and I really think you are deluding yourself into keeping what is comfortable to you instead of what you need to do.

2.I believe you can throw straight and have a decent average but if just going straight was the answer everyone on the tour would be using it since the PBA Patterns are infinitely more difficult than the THS we normally bowl on.

Not trying to pick a fight with you just know it is always easier to do what we are doing than it is to change.

[Aslan]

2. It has been shown since forever that hooking the ball leads to better scoring than throwing straight why are there no straight ball players on the tour right now

You're confusing what I mean by "throwing straight". WRW throws straight. He's the best bowler alive. Does that mean his ball is plastic and goes completely "straight"? No. Even rubber balls in the 60s hooked into the pocket. But I'm talking straight relative to today's standard of playing inside, throwing out to a break point, and getting an extreme angular motion back into the pocket.



1.Earl Anthony, WRW, and Norm Duke do not throw a low rev or straight style even when Norm is playing outside his rev rate is still 250-300. Earl Anthony bowled in a different era with different conditions and balls but even from what I have seen with that old equipment he still had some movement on the ball. Agreed. Some. And all 3 bowlers CAN add revs and have. WRW can hook the entire lane and Norm Duke I've seen play very far inside. Again, straight relative to today's standards.



1. the biggest difference between pro bowler and amateur bowlers is not their accuracy. it's the combination of accuracy, power, and rev rate. Having one is easy, get two your pretty good, and if you add the third your going to be truly high level. Just accuracy with out the other 2 is useless. Incorrect. Watch the USBC video on improving your average and pay special attention to where they mention the difference between when they use the equipment to analyze a pro versus an amateur and the variation in their accuracy.


2. On THS the area that can get you a consistent strike is 3 to 5 boards wide too many people get hung up on trying to cut boards in half and mess there head up. If you really want to know how the pro's are as dominate as they are they know how to make their targets wider t maximize their chances. It is as much about creating yourself a 3 board target and your opponent having a smaller window. Thats a fine mindset on a THS shot. But as you play on heavier oil and sport conditions, that 3-5 board miss area disappears. Is it necessary for a house bowler to split boards? Probably not. But, remember The Patriot..."Aim small, miss small." You aim for an area and miss...gutter. You aim for 1/3 of a board and miss...on a THS shot...still can strike. Don't get too dependent on being able to miss. Wood lanes are fun...I definitely miss the old days of being able to miss 6 boards right and still strike...but not bowling on wood anymore is making me a better bowler....whether I "like" it or not.


1. I'm not saying you need 400 or 500 revs or have to throw at 20 miles per hour to be very successful but if you think that you are going to keep your 130rpm release and just throw more accurately and compete at a very high level I think you are wasting your time. The big hook not necessary some hook is and I really think you are deluding yourself into keeping what is comfortable to you instead of what you need to do.
Rolling slower wasn't "comfortable"...I can assure you of that. It's still not "comfortable"....and at times I downright hate it. And you're right I can't make it to the top level with a 130rpm rev rate...no matter how accurate. But I'll cross the "release" bridge when I come to it. Doing it the other way wasn't working. I "wanted"it too...I really did. But trying to make the ball rev made me inconsistent, inaccurate, and geve me an average of 165. In 2 months my strike rate is up, my spare pick-up rate is up, my accuracy is nearly ideal, and I've added 11 pins to my average. Results are results...whether I "like" them or not.


2.I believe you can throw straight and have a decent average but if just going straight was the answer everyone on the tour would be using it since the PBA Patterns are infinitely more difficult than the THS we normally bowl on. And if 2-handed bowling was the "answer", more than 2 pros would switch to it. Watch the USBC Open and Senior Masters. There's a LOT of different deliveries and styles. Every one has it's pros and cons. The reason pros have gone to a high rev, high speed, power game is its the only way to maximize that power and entry angle. On sport patterns...the dry area outside is gone so you either throw very straight and lose power, or you find a way to rev the ball up as much as possible and throw towards a break point. Most people will try to emulate what the pros do.

I personally (just my opinion), think they shouldn't because the high level release they are seeing and those massive revs only work if you have accuracy....AND play in heavier oil...WITH a high end pro-performance ball....AND an arsenal to change to when conditions change. It's like a kid jumping from racing BMX bikes to Indy cars rather than working his way to go karts, dirt bikes, sprint buggies, trucks, Nazcar, THEN Indy cars. And it's why you so often see THS bowlers with high rev rates that score > 200 when they are striking like mad...then their score drops to 140 when the ball starts moving too much and they can't pick up spares. It's why I saw 200+ average bowlers struggle to bowl 140 in Vegas at sweeps in heavy oil.


Not trying to pick a fight with you just know it is always easier to do what we are doing than it is to change.
You are at a disadvantage because you're new to the party. Believe me, I fought like HELLo when people first tried to get me to change my game to a lower speed, roll the ball type of game. You see me as stubbornly not increasing my rev rate by changing to a modern release. I see myself as no longer so stubborn, and realizing that if I want to score well on varying conditions I need to learn how to let the ball interact with the lane a bit and do so accurately.

Developing a better release, a middle game, and an inside game are still on the horizon for sure. But I need to be something I'm not good at, which is "patient".

[Amyers]

Aslan I get what you are saying now with the straighter thing I misunderstood what you were getting at that I thought you were advocating even lower revs more of a less hooking style than you already have.

Will disagree somewhat and by that only in a way of getting to the same place. Myself I would rather take the pain and frustration up front and learn some type of release that allowed me to generate some revs whether that is modern, old school, transitional or something else. I have read a lot of your old posts I hung out on this site for quite awhile before joining. My feelings have always been the longer I do something the more ingrained it becomes and the harder it is to switch and I know you have that want to go to a higher level. I just feel that your getting close to the celling with your current style and I mean that as a compliment. You have came a long way in a short while but we both know your going to top out that way eventually I've never seen anyone average more than low 200's that way and I know you want more than that. Patience may be a virtue but I've never had much of it

[Hammer]

There definitely wasn't a lot of hook on Norm's ball. It looked like his right foot was on the 20 board and his ball was going over somewhere between the 10 and 15 board. He said he was using lower and consistent revs to get it to the pocket. Barnes had his sliding foot by the left gutter but his breakpoint looked somewhere around board 13. Usually you see deep players have a breakpoint of about board 7 or 8.

[rv driver]

There definitely wasn't a lot of hook on Norm's ball. It looked like his right foot was on the 20 board and his ball was going over somewhere between the 10 and 15 board. He said he was using lower and consistent revs to get it to the pocket. Barnes had his sliding foot by the left gutter but his breakpoint looked somewhere around board 13. Usually you see deep players have a breakpoint of about board 7 or 8.
I agree. Didn't see a lot of hook on Norm's ball. There was a little -- you could see it especially when the camera angle was behind the ball.

[Hammer]

OOPS! I noticed that I said Marble Pearl instead of Marvel Pearl. DOH! I am surprised nobody seemed to notice that. GOTCHA!

[rv driver]

OOPS! I noticed that I said Marble Pearl instead of Marvel Pearl. DOH! I am surprised nobody seemed to notice that. GOTCHA!
I missed that. Must have subconsciously read "Marvel."