Something I've been thinking about

[Amyers]

I have two things I'm thinking about and wanted your opinions:

#1. My proshop guy has been onto me about getting a spare ball. My spare shooting is not great I don't track my numbers the way aslan does but I would say I'm about 60 to 70% on single pins other than the 10 and 7 pins which I struggle with about 40% mulitipns other than splits. On league conditions (heavier oil) I can throw relatively straight at them during open play I can't. It would allow me to play more consistent lines at them if I did. I can probably get one for about $50 bucks drilled.

#2. My pro shop guy has a Storm Vivid single drill sitting in his shop I'm wanting to add something with more bite than my Seismic Euphoria (it's a light to light medium ball). I was wanting to wait for the Storm demo days to add some more to my arsenal but I have about 6 to 7 weeks left in both my summer leagues and feel I need something more on the heavier oil. Demo days won't be until fall and I'm ranked towards the top in both leagues. My Euphoria gives me about 10 boards of hook on open bowling about 3-4 on leagues. Two things concern me with this ball.

A. It's asymmetric which I've never thrown.

B. It's a pretty strong ball opposite end of the spectrum from my euphoria. Is it too much?

I can get this ball plugged and re drilled for about $60 to $70 dollars. At this price is it worth taking a chance on? Is it too much ball for me? You guys have seen me bowl although I've cleaned some stuff up since my last videos. I would appreciate you opinions.

[bowl1820]

#1- You can't go wrong getting a spare Ball (your consistent lines reasoning is sound)

#2- The Vivid is a good ball and the numbers are not that different than the euphoria. The main differences are the coverstock and being Asym. and you are looking for something on more oil.

Seismic Euphoria Sym Pearl RG: 2.55 Diff.: .054 Surface:Polished
Storm Vivid Asym Solid RG: 2.52 Dif.: .050 Surface: 2000 Abralon



Let's see 50 for a new Spare ball & 70 for the used Vivid, so around 120 for both

I'd see if he'd bundle them and if he'd cut me a deal. Maybe a $100 out the door, if not still not bad.

[MICHAEL]

I had a bad experience with the Vivid,,, wrote several threads on the subject a while back... Good luck,,, I think just had a bad ball.... they aggred with me, and game me a replacement ball the V.G. Nanno pearl,,, which happens to be the second ball that gave me a perfect game!! So in a way I owe the vivid, for getting a replacement ball that I would not have purchased and the 300 game!! LOL

[Aslan]

I don't track my numbers the way aslan does
First, and most importantly, it's an "L"; I'm not asian.


On league conditions (heavier oil)
One thing I need clarification on…when you talk about "heavier oil"…are you still talking about wood lanes? Or are you talking about playing on synthetics with heavier oil versus playing on wood?

From my experience, oil volume really doesn't matter much if you're talking wood lanes. An entry level ball or a polished, weaker drilled medium-upper level ball is probably going to be fine. Having a couple choices to navigate slightly different conditions wouldn't hurt…but heavily oiled wood lanes are still going to grab as much as lightly oiled synthetics. Wood is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I am searching for a better release and stronger ball because I went from wood to low/medium oil synthetics AND if I'm going to compete in Vegas or tournaments…I'll be playing on heavier oil synthetics (other side of the spectrum from wood).


I can throw relatively straight at them during open play I can't. It would allow me to play more consistent lines at them if I did. I can probably get one for about $50 bucks drilled.
Most people use plastic or urethane spare balls nowadays. At $50 drilled…not bad. Me, and others like me, "like" the idea of a very polished, low diff. reactive because it tends to "hold" when you miss right on 10-pins. It also gives you a Plan C/Plan D ball for nights when you need to play very straight up the 12-17 boards. But, it's all up to the individual. If a person is missing spares because the ball is hooking too much…plastic/urethane might be a good solution. Especially on wood lanes where it's going to move more than on synthetics. But if you're just "missing", the ball change won't fix it. Only practice will.


A. It's asymmetric which I've never thrown.
Not a big deal…from what I've heard. They say it's less controllable, might react more sharply or erratically. But others have results where it doesn't act much differently to a symmetric core. I wouldn't worry about it.


B. It's a pretty strong ball opposite end of the spectrum from my euphoria. Is it too much?
I agree with Bowl1820…I think the Euphoria is stronger than you think. The problem with going from a pearl to a solid overstock, is, it doesn't hook "more", it hooks "earlier". That will take some getting used to depending on how you throw.


I can get this ball plugged and re drilled for about $60 to $70 dollars. At this price is it worth taking a chance on? Is it too much ball for me? You guys have seen me bowl although I've cleaned some stuff up since my last videos. I would appreciate you opinions.

Like Bowl1820 said, it's a decent deal. It costs me about $45 to get a ball drilled…maybe more to plug it as well…so it's a decent deal.

[classygranny]

Not a big deal…from what I've heard. They say it's less controllable, might react more sharply or erratically. But others have results where it doesn't act much differently to a symmetric core. I wouldn't worry about it.


Not sure who "they" are, but I have two Defiant Souls and I love them. They seem to be very controllable, nice consistent arcing roll. One reads the lanes a little earlier than the other one and has a bit more surface on it. The great thing about it is...if you watch closely, it "tells" you when to change balls - you just have to listen, watch, and trust. This may not be the case for all asymmetrical balls, but I don't think you should rule one out until you try it.

[bowl1820]

I don't track my numbers the way aslan


First, and most importantly, it's an "L"; I'm not asian.

Actually he did spell it right. That's a lower case "L" = ( l ) not a capital "I"

[Amyers]

One thing I need clarification on…when you talk about "heavier oil"…are you still talking about wood lanes? Or are you talking about playing on synthetics with heavier oil versus playing on
.

I was referring to my wood lanes but I don't see that difference between my home wood lanes and the synthetics your talking about. We have three wood houses and three synthetics and I've bowled at all of them. I haven't bowled leagues on the synthetics but I've bowled on them right after leagues and the next day many times and if anything they tend to hook more than my wood lanes even if I'm comparing them day after to day after they still hook more. A lot of the people at my home lanes don't like bowling on the synthetics because they hook too much even in league play. I will say most of the people I've talked too about this tend to be more down an in players where I'm generally more of a inside out player. They also tend to lay with stronger equipment.

[Amyers]

Actually he did spell it right. That's a lower case "L" = ( l ) not a capital "I"

Ha ha lol

[Amyers]

#1- You can't go wrong getting a spare Ball (your consistent lines reasoning is sound)

#2- The Vivid is a good ball and the numbers are not that different than the euphoria. The main differences are the coverstock and being Asym. and you are looking for something on more oil.

Seismic Euphoria Sym Pearl RG: 2.55 Diff.: .054 Surface:Polished
Storm Vivid Asym Solid RG: 2.52 Dif.: .050 Surface: 2000 Abralon



Let's see 50 for a new Spare ball & 70 for the used Vivid, so around 120 for both

I'd see if he'd bundle them and if he'd cut me a deal. Maybe a $100 out the door, if not still not bad.

Bowl1820 do you really think these balls are close? I've seen the similarity in the numbers you listed here but seismic's website lists that ball with a PR( their strength rating) of 160 the next lowest ball is the desperado with a 185 most of the others are over 250. The Vivid was one of storms premier line balls so I would think it would be quite a bit stronger. I've read that cover stock is about 60% of a balls reaction so wouldn't their still be quite a bit of difference between them even though the core numbers are similar?

On the light oil days it screams back but on the fresh I don't get much "hook" out of it. I'm sure if I moved further to the right and played up the 5 board I probably would but that's never been my style.

By the way I'm not running this ball down at all I really like it it hits hard and rarely overreacts it just plays better on lighter conditions.

[Amyers]

Actually he did spell it right. That's a lower case "L" = ( l ) not a capital "I"

I guess ASLAN has become so great we have to use his name all in caps now. I'm just having fun with you

[bowl1820]

Bowl1820 do you really think these balls are close?
I'm not saying the balls are "close" and that the Vivid isn't that much stronger, just that the RG & Diff. are very similar And the main difference in them will come from the coverstocks used.



I've seen the similarity in the numbers you listed here but seismic's website lists that ball with a PR( their strength rating) of 160 the next lowest ball is the desperado with a 185 most of the others are over 250. The Vivid was one of storms premier line balls so I would think it would be quite a bit stronger.

The RG & Diff. numbers are the only ones you can really compare between different brands. The MFG. hook ratings are just about meaningless because each company uses a different rating system.

Now if we Use BTM's review ratings

The Seismic Euphoria has a Length of 16, Backend of 15 and a Hook rating of 46 using a Polished surface.

The Storm Vivid has a Length of 11.5, Backend of 16.5 and a Hook rating of 53 using a 2000 Abralon surface.


I've read that cover stock is about 60% of a balls reaction so wouldn't their still be quite a bit of difference between them even though the core numbers are similar?

Yes The Vivid has a stronger cover that handles more oil and rolly core which will give you some midlane.

So it yes would be stronger than the Euphoria. (do a lot to that 2000 surface which will let it start up earlier)



On the light oil days it screams back but on the fresh I don't get much "hook" out of it. I'm sure if I moved further to the right and played up the 5 board I probably would but that's never been my style.


By the way I'm not running this ball down at all I really like it it hits hard and rarely overreacts it just plays better on lighter conditions.
It should It's a Pearl, that is what it's made for lighter conditions.

[Amyers]

I'm not saying the balls are "close" and that the Vivid isn't that much stronger, just that the RG & Diff. are very similar And the main difference in them will come from the coverstocks used.




The RG & Diff. numbers are the only ones you can really compare between different brands. The MFG. hook ratings are just about meaningless because each company uses a different rating system.

Now if we Use BTM's review ratings

The Seismic Euphoria has a Length of 16, Backend of 15 and a Hook rating of 46 using a Polished surface.

The Storm Vivid has a Length of 11.5, Backend of 16.5 and a Hook rating of 53 using a 2000 Abralon surface.



Yes The Vivid has a stronger cover that handles more oil and rolly core which will give you some midlane.

So it yes would be stronger than the Euphoria. (do a lot to that 2000 surface which will let it start up earlier)





It should It's a Pearl, that is what it's made for lighter conditions.

Okay definitely get it just wanted to make sure although I do believe the balls are closer than I expected. From looking at this it appears the biggest difference will be the vivid will start quite a bit earlier.

[bowl1820]

If interested Heres the BTM review of the Vivid:


Click for BTM's Review of the Storm Vivid (http://digitaleditions.bowlingthismonth.com/print.php?pages=39&issue_id=99658&ref=1)

Right click and "Save Link As" to save it.


Here's the Euphoria Review also:

Click for BTM's Review of the Seismic Euphoria (http://digitaleditions.bowlingthismonth.com/print.php?pages=37&issue_id=66298&ref=1)

Right click and "Save Link As" to save it.

[Amyers]

If interested Heres the BTM review of the Vivid:


Click for BTM's Review of the Storm Vivid (http://digitaleditions.bowlingthismonth.com/print.php?pages=39&issue_id=99658&ref=1)

Right click and "Save Link As" to save it.


Here's the Euphoria Review also:

Click for BTM's Review of the Seismic Euphoria (http://digitaleditions.bowlingthismonth.com/print.php?pages=37&issue_id=66298&ref=1)

Right click and "Save Link As" to save it.

Thanks bowl I've seen some others throw the vivid but I've never seen real people throwing the euphoria so it hard to judge exactly where it's at for me. These are good comparisons.

[Hampe]

I can't recommend getting a plastic spare ball enough. It will give you consistency and confidence you will never have from shooting spares with a reactive ball. Nothing worse than going to a new center or playing on a new pattern for a tournament and struggling to adjust your strike ball and then also struggling to adjust your spare shots. A light reactive ball may grab the lane and hold for the 10 pin on a slight miss right......but it will also hook in front and miss on some patterns when you thought you made the right shot (or if you miss slightly left). Get plastic...it will never let you down.

As for the other question, don't be afraid to get a asymmetric ball. If you are at least a little consistent with your release, you'll do fine with it.

[Amyers]

. If you are at least a little consistent with your release, you'll do fine with it.

Thanks for the advice I have seen a lot of post from people who don't like asymmetrical balls so they had been scaring me away but at the price and listening to you guys I think I'm going to do both. As far as my release goes I'm at least relatively consistent with it. not the greatest release in the world but I'm consistent with it.

[Amyers]

Well now that I have won the RotoGrip Asylum How would this ball fit in with my Seismic Euphoria and should I still add the Storm Vivid? I've never built an arsenal before. I'm definitely adding the spare ball done made my mind up on that.

[rv driver]

Well now that I have won the RotoGrip Asylum How would this ball fit in with my Seismic Euphoria and should I still add the Storm Vivid? I've never built an arsenal before. I'm definitely adding the spare ball done made my mind up on that.
I think I'd hesitate to advertise the fact that I'd "gotten the Asylum." That would be...

crazy? ;-)



Just toyin' with ya. It's a great win!

[Amyers]

I think I'd hesitate to advertise the fact that I'd "gotten the Asylum." That would be...

crazy? ;-)



Just toyin' with ya. It's a great win!

Yeah I have Euphoria and an Asylum now maybe I should base my entire lineup around mental states. LOL

[Aslan]

Well now that I have won the RotoGrip Asylum How would this ball fit in with my Seismic Euphoria and should I still add the Storm Vivid? I've never built an arsenal before. I'm definitely adding the spare ball done made my mind up on that.

HEY!! I wanted to win one of those!....oh, nevermind.

The Asylum will likely feel weaker than your Euphoria. You're going to have to decide whether you want/need a weaker version of the Euphoria (for when the Euphoria can't stay right of the headpin) and use the Vivid for when you want a little more angle into the pocket than you get with the Euphoria. That would typically be the arsenal scenario for those 3 balls.

The other option is to scrap the idea of getting the Vivid (since it's so close in specs to the Euphoria, just with an earlier more anglular hook motion) and have the Asylum drilled more aggressively. I'm not sure how much more aggressive the pro shop can make it...but I imagine if your pro shop guy knows what you have (the Seismic) and that you're looking for more hook in heavier oil...the ball driller can probably use that information to "make" the Asylum into something more aggressive.

Normally, I'd say the Asylum is pretty good for wood lane conditions. I used a Frantic for awhile on wood lanes and the Asylum has similar numbers. But on synthetics, the Frantic is more of a "Plan B" and is the ball I "ball down" to when I'm playing on non-league conditions (oil not fresh) or if the outside dries up to quickly and I'm struggling to stay right of the headpin. There's never a negative (except closet space) to winning a free ball...but if there was for you...it's that this particular ball isn't really what I'd pick as the answer to your "what can I do when the ball isn't hooking enough on heavier oil/league conditions?" question.

Now...the disclaimer here is...I go strictly by the numbers and stats. Rob and I have had this discussion at length in other threads...sometimes the balls don't line up with what the stats say they should do. A lot of what a ball actually does is based on the bowler. I don't have too high of expectations for the balls I'm going to have drilled in late July...because at my rev rate...I might not see a huge difference...no matter what the stats say I "should" see.

[Amyers]

HEY!! I wanted to win one of those!....oh, nevermind.

The Asylum will likely feel weaker than your Euphoria. You're going to have to decide whether you want/need a weaker version of the Euphoria (for when the Euphoria can't stay right of the headpin) and use the Vivid for when you want a little more angle into the pocket than you get with the Euphoria. That would typically be the arsenal scenario for those 3 balls.

The other option is to scrap the idea of getting the Vivid (since it's so close in specs to the Euphoria, just with an earlier more anglular hook motion) and have the Asylum drilled more aggressively. I'm not sure how much more aggressive the pro shop can make it...but I imagine if your pro shop guy knows what you have (the Seismic) and that you're looking for more hook in heavier oil...the ball driller can probably use that information to "make" the Asylum into something more aggressive.

Normally, I'd say the Asylum is pretty good for wood lane conditions. I used a Frantic for awhile on wood lanes and the Asylum has similar numbers. But on synthetics, the Frantic is more of a "Plan B" and is the ball I "ball down" to when I'm playing on non-league conditions (oil not fresh) or if the outside dries up to quickly and I'm struggling to stay right of the headpin. There's never a negative (except closet space) to winning a free ball...but if there was for you...it's that this particular ball isn't really what I'd pick as the answer to your "what can I do when the ball isn't hooking enough on heavier oil/league conditions?" question.

Now...the disclaimer here is...I go strictly by the numbers and stats. Rob and I have had this discussion at length in other threads...sometimes the balls don't line up with what the stats say they should do. A lot of what a ball actually does is based on the bowler. I don't have too high of expectations for the balls I'm going to have drilled in late July...because at my rev rate...I might not see a huge difference...no matter what the stats say I "should" see.

Didn't you win an asylum also ASLAN?

[Aslan]

Didn't you win an asylum also ASLAN?

As was hinted to via the "oh nevermind".

[bowl1820]

Well now that I have won the RotoGrip Asylum How would this ball fit in with my Seismic Euphoria and should I still add the Storm Vivid? I've never built an arsenal before. I'm definitely adding the spare ball done made my mind up on that.

I would wait on the Vivid till you punched up the Asylum which is a med./Heavy oil ball.

For the Asylum I think I'd go with a layout that would start up earlier and go to 2000 with the surface. (But try it with the OOB first, preferably on the oilier conditions your thinking of bowling on. Then see if you need to change surface). If needed you could add a P3 or P4 hole to increase the reaction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsZVBu8bm_A

[Blacksox1]

Amyers, I am not a big fan of buying used equipment, unless it has only been on the market for less than 3 months, and the price is right. Get that spare ball, I use a weakly drilled layout on a blue hammer. Get that asylum drilled up too! Welcome to the winner's circle!

[Aslan]

I would wait on the Vivid till you punched up the Asylum which is a med./Heavy oil ball.

For the Asylum I think I'd go with a layout that would start up earlier and go to 2000 with the surface. (But try it with the OOB first, preferably on the oilier conditions your thinking of bowling on. Then see if you need to change surface). If needed you could add a P3 or P4 hole to increase the reaction.

I know the website says medium/heavy and all the bowling ball.com videos make just about any ball look like it will hook the lane…but if you compare the Asylum's specs to the Euphoria…I don't see how he's going to get more hook out of it unless his Euphoria is 3 years old and has never been de-oiled.

But also, I agree…might as well get the free one drilled up and see what you get out of it. And…I agree with Blacksox…not personally a big fan of used equipment. But, at that price…I guess I can see it either way.

[Amyers]

I know the website says medium/heavy and all the bowling ball.com videos make just about any ball look like it will hook the lane…but if you compare the Asylum's specs to the Euphoria…I don't see how he's going to get more hook out of it unless his Euphoria is 3 years old and has never been de-oiled.

But also, I agree…might as well get the free one drilled up and see what you get out of it. And…I agree with Blacksox…not personally a big fan of used equipment. But, at that price…I guess I can see it either way.

Don't forget Aslan that those numbers your looking at are just for the core. The cover stock has much more to do with strength of a ball than the core does. I'm not looking to hook the lanes anyway I would just like something that allows me to plat a little more inside than my euphoria does typically I'm most comfortable standing about 25 or 30 throwing across 15 at the arrows. On league conditions here lately I've been standing on 15 to 20 throwing out to 5 to get any comeback to the pocket.

[Amyers]

I would wait on the Vivid till you punched up the Asylum which is a med./Heavy oil ball.

For the Asylum I think I'd go with a layout that would start up earlier and go to 2000 with the surface. (But try it with the OOB first, preferably on the oilier conditions your thinking of bowling on. Then see if you need to change surface). If needed you could add a P3 or P4 hole to increase the reaction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsZVBu8bm_A

Thanks for the info I really prefer to have an idea in my head when I go to the pro shop and not just walk in and have them punch some holes in it.

[Amyers]

Amyers, I am not a big fan of buying used equipment, unless it has only been on the market for less than 3 months, and the price is right. Get that spare ball, I use a weakly drilled layout on a blue hammer. Get that asylum drilled up too! Welcome to the winner's circle!

Thanks black sox I'm define fly adding the spare ball

[bowl1820]

I know the website says medium/heavy and all the bowling ball.com videos make just about any ball look like it will hook the lane…but if you compare the Asylum's specs to the Euphoria…I don't see how he's going to get more hook out of it unless his Euphoria is 3 years old and has never been de-oiled.

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?

While the Euphoria does have a higher Diff. (.054) vs the Asylum's (.043), that still only gives them both about 6" of "potential" flare.

The Asylum has a lower RG (2.50)( which is even lower than the Vivid RG (2.52)). While the Euphoria has a higher RG (2.55), which means the Asylum will rev up earlier.

The Euphoria then paired it's core with a weaker cover (The LNS Pearl coverstock), which is also polished. Which doesn't really give it a lot hook. It's better suited for the drys and mediums.

The Asylum on the other hand is using a stronger hybrid cover (the 63MH) and is using matte surface (3000 abralon), so it will read the friction earlier. So is suited for more oil.

So the Asylum is not going to be weaker then the Euphoria.

The Euphoria is a basically a Medium to Dry ball, while the Asylum would be more a Medium to Wet ball.

And I think with the right layout and if needed a surface change, it will handle more oil than the Euphoria ever will.

[Amyers]

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?

While the Euphoria does have a higher Diff. (.054) vs the Asylum's (.043), that still only gives them both about 6" of "potential" flare.

The Asylum has a lower RG (2.50)( which is even lower than the Vivid RG (2.52)). While the Euphoria has a higher RG (2.55), which means the Asylum will rev up earlier.

The Euphoria then paired it's core with a weaker cover (The LNS Pearl coverstock), which is also polished. Which doesn't really give it a lot hook. It's better suited for the drys and mediums.

The Asylum on the other hand is using a stronger hybrid cover (the 63MH) and is using matte surface (3000 abralon), so it will read the friction earlier. So is suited for more oil.

So the Asylum is not going to be weaker then the Euphoria.

The Euphoria is a basically a Medium to Dry ball, while the Asylum would be more a Medium to Wet ball.

And I think with the right layout and if needed a surface change, it will handle more oil than the Euphoria ever will.

Bowl1820 what exactly does flare mean? I've seen it on most balls some say 1-3 some more but I'm not sure what that corresponds too.

[Aslan]

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?

Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.

Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.

But, I admit…it's hard to say. If he's playing on wood…it doesn't matter if it's a fresh shot…I can't see the condition ever being "heavy" enough that a solid overstock isn't going to hook too early. But, he has more speed…some loft…maybe he gets it down there more. But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"? I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

[Amyers]

Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.

Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.

But, I admit…it's hard to say. If he's playing on wood…it doesn't matter if it's a fresh shot…I can't see the condition ever being "heavy" enough that a solid overstock isn't going to hook too early. But, he has more speed…some loft…maybe he gets it down there more. But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"? I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

I don't know exactly how this is going to work out and these are good questions but a few things here

1. I think you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did not all wood is high surface I've mentioned before I've played on synthetics and I can't tell that much difference especially this summer with very little ac these lanes are playing tight.

2. There are lots of guys playing hybrids. IQ tour hybrid, venom shocks, and wreckers even two guys throwing a mastermind and a IQ tour solid but not as many of those I would say there are as many if not more hybrids than pearls being played.

3. One thing I disagree with Rob about on this though if the ball is sliding instead of rolling too far it will reduce the amount of hook. To little slide can have the same effect the ball burns up before it can hook. it all depends on ball speed and the amount of oil and how long the ball stays in it.

Like I said it may not work but we will see

[bowl1820]

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?


Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.
Okay, you said the Vivid has a stronger cover than the Euphoria and the Asylum cover is a little stronger (than the Euphoria).
None of that makes the Asylum weaker than the Euphoria.


Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.
Higher differentials provide more flare potential. The key word here is "potential" and that is dependent on the bowlers release. If your only getting 3" of flare now, it basically doesn't matter if it has 5" or 6" or 7" of flare potential your only going to get 3".

Your equating strength with backend (which a lot of bowlers do), I'm with earlier means stronger .

Just because a ball has more backend doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger.



But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"?
The stronger cover paired with the stronger core of the Asylum, will give it more hook than the Euphoria.


I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Yes the lower RG of the Asylum will let it rev up earlier and He said "I need something more on the heavier oil."



Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

I think Amyers said it best "you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did "

[bowl1820]

Bowl1820 what exactly does flare mean? I've seen it on most balls some say 1-3 some more but I'm not sure what that corresponds too.

Flare is the ball changing its axis of rotation as it goes down the lane, so that it's rolling on a fresher part of the ball surface. You see that as several oil rings around the ball.

[Amyers]

Flare is the ball changing its axis of rotation as it goes down the lane, so that it's rolling on a fresher part of the ball surface. You see that as several oil rings around the ball.

So the more flare the farther the oil rings will be spaced apart correct at least potentially depending on the bowlers angle of release correct? Potentially increasing the strength of the ball with higher numbers of flare?

[bowl1820]

So the more flare the farther the oil rings will be spaced apart correct at least potentially depending on the bowlers angle of release correct? Potentially increasing the strength of the ball with higher numbers of flare?

Okay about flare (the distance from the first ring of oil (near the thumb hole), to the last ring).

The thing about flare is that all it does is provide more fresh surface of the the ball to come in contact with the lane.

The more fresh surface to contact the lane, the more friction and as a result, the earlier hook.

Now remember I said earlier, not more. friction just provides earlier hook, not more hook.

[Amyers]

Okay about flare (the distance from the first ring of oil (near the thumb hole), to the last ring).

The thing about flare is that all it does is provide more fresh surface of the the ball to come in contact with the lane.

The more fresh surface to contact the lane, the more friction and as a result, the earlier hook.

Now remember I said earlier, not more. friction just provides earlier hook, not more hook.

Okay that makes sense although seems strange in light of my euphoria at 7" is seems to be one of the higher flaring balls and I don't see anything early about it I'm guessing because of the polish and cover stock. Thanks I have never had an explanation of this before. One less number out there I don't understand.

[Aslan]

I think Amyers said it best "you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did "

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics? It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

[Amyers]

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics? It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

I'm not saying on average wood has less traction than synthetic. I am believing that you have an extreme example of wood that your comparing to synthetics. I bowl once a week on synthetics I will say they are not freshly oiled when I play them but they are within a board or two of each other between the two houses. Most days my line is the same don't really line up any different. Now could I be comparing heavy oiled wood to low oil synthetics maybe I don't know and probably wont unless I start a league or bowl a tournament on the synthetics.

[RobLV1]

A couple of things strike me immediately about this thread:

1. When we talk about amount of hook, there are two ways to look at measuring it. Personally, I like to define the amount of hook as the number of degrees of change of direction of the bowling ball between the time that it quits skidding, and starts rolling. This amount of angle is totally dependent on the release of the bowler. The other way of defining the amount of hook is by counting the amount of boards covered by the ball from the time it is laid down on the lane, out to the breakpoint, and back to the pocket. By measuring the amount of hook in this way, a ball that hooks earlier is said to hook more because it covers more boards. In my book, this is nonsense that does nothing but clouding the issue.

2. One of my favorite lines from daytime television is when Judge Judy says, "They don't keep me here 'cause I'm gorgeous, they keep me here 'cause I'm smart," followed up by, "That doesn't make sense to me, and if it doesn't make sense then it's not true." Let's look at the concept of a wider flare pattern providing more friction because more fresh surface of the ball is exposed to the lane, in a Judge Judian fashion. Say, for argument sake that there are six rings of flare arcross a three inch area on ball A, and six rings of flare across a six inch area on ball B. On ball A, there is 1/2" of space between the six rings, and on ball B there is 1" of space between the six rings. Whether there is 1/2" of space, or 1" of space, both balls are seeing the same amount of fresh surface come in contact with the lane. The only place where there will be minimally more fresh surface exposed to the lane is at the two bow ties, and that amount is so small to be insignificant. Conclusion: A ball that flares more does not hook more because more fresh surface comes in contact with the lane. It may, in fact, hook more, but not for this reason.

[fortheloveofbowling]

We all can take many bowling balls we have and say play straight up 5 and make the ball hit the 7. That means they all hook the same amount but start going towards the 7 at different points. It depends on the point you want the ball to do the most of its motion that matters. The pearl ball you have is better for inside angle because the late motion is going to create motion at the back where you need it to get the 10 out. The duller surface ball is better suited for straighter angles for a more controlled motion. Of course you can look at it just the opposite but all depends on the motion you are trying to create and the place on the lane you are playing.

[bowl1820]

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics?
Yes, you could easily have wood lanes with slicker "conditions" than synthetic lanes.

I've bowled on older wood lanes (well maintained and badly maintained ones), newly resurface ones, old wood lanes with a overlay (the worst combo you can bowl on), synthetics mounted on top of wood lanes, synthetics mounted directly to the lane foundation, several different brands of synthetics (there all different).

So have seen many different conditions.


It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum.
Wood lanes are softer and have more texture than synthetics which are harder, balls will tend to hook sooner and have less backend (the reaction evens out). The Older wood lanes are, affects how they hold the oil, plus the heads are usually worn (Speed and loft helps then).

Synthetics are harder (but there are differences between brands in hardness, textures, etc. also how old they are.) and that lets the ball slide easier down the lane. That's why you want the ball to read the lane (see the friction) earlier, so you use less speed, less loft, a more aggressive ball etc.

Synthetics when wet are very slick, but when they breakdown or dry to begin with, they can hook more than wood. That's why you have to look at the lane conditions being used.


I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

What you just said there .

Having limited experience on different lane types and conditions isn't a bad thing, you got start some place. It's just when someone starts making general conclusions based on that limited knowledge base that things get out of whack.

[Aslan]

What you just said there .

Having limited experience on different lane types and conditions isn't a bad thing, you got start some place. It's just when someone starts making general conclusions based on that limited knowledge base that things get out of whack.

In my defense, I have bowled on wood extensively (many here never have) and I have bowled in about 15 different centers over the last < 6 months. Also, wood lanes are getting to be rare...so trying to talk about what arsenal to use and how to use it becomes that much more complicated.

I've watched Amyers's videos. I see similarities in his game to my old game. We both bowl on wood (or at least have). And I remember asking some of the same questions 4 months ago he is askling now. I had trouble getting backend movement and bought a solid coverstock ball. I immediately was frustrated because it didn't seem to make a difference (not at 20mph with a 12-15ft loft). I've also strived to play the inside line...get a ball to go out to the break point and "snap" back like in the videos...I have not found that game yet.

So when he talks about switching from a Pearl to a hybrid symmetric (I switched from a hybrid to a solid symmetric) and thinking that will give him that "snap"...I'm just offering caution that in my experience...the coverstock/surface change caused the ball to hook "earlier"...and I didn't get that "snap" I was after. I'm hoping a switch to a Pearl, assymetric with a stronger core will help me...coupled with trying to develop a better release...but we'll see. All I can do is offer him my perspective...ultimately he chooses his own path based on all of our inputs. I've already been on record suggesting he weigh yours and Robs and vdub's higher than the rest of us.

[rv driver]

In my defense, I have bowled on wood extensively (many here never have) and I have bowled in about 15 different centers over the last < 6 months. Also, wood lanes are getting to be rare...so trying to talk about what arsenal to use and how to use it becomes that much more complicated.

I've watched Amyers's videos. I see similarities in his game to my old game. We both bowl on wood (or at least have). And I remember asking some of the same questions 4 months ago he is askling now. I had trouble getting backend movement and bought a solid coverstock ball. I immediately was frustrated because it didn't seem to make a difference (not at 20mph with a 12-15ft loft). I've also strived to play the inside line...get a ball to go out to the break point and "snap" back like in the videos...I have not found that game yet.

So when he talks about switching from a Pearl to a hybrid symmetric (I switched from a hybrid to a solid symmetric) and thinking that will give him that "snap"...I'm just offering caution that in my experience...the coverstock/surface change caused the ball to hook "earlier"...and I didn't get that "snap" I was after. I'm hoping a switch to a Pearl, assymetric with a stronger core will help me...coupled with trying to develop a better release...but we'll see. All I can do is offer him my perspective...ultimately he chooses his own path based on all of our inputs. I've already been on record suggesting he weigh yours and Robs and vdub's higher than the rest of us.
The way I understand it, the pearl has more of a snap than a solid. The solid should roll sooner.


Unless I'm mistaken, that is...

[Amyers]

The way I understand it, the pearl has more of a snap than a solid. The solid should roll sooner.


Unless I'm mistaken, that is...

You are correct solids tend to roll/hook sooner than pearls. A solid may actually move more boards but its over a longer sweep.

[Aslan]

You are correct solids tend to roll/hook sooner than pearls. A solid may actually move more boards but its over a longer sweep.

Thats my experience. Granted, I've reduced speed and RPMs significantly…but my pearl doesn't have much backend at all (diff. of .017), my hybrid (polished) goes longer and has a moderate, yet smooth (symmetric core) hook on the backend. And my solid has a very wide hook out to the right gutter and back.

The best way to describe it is the solid almost forms a backwards capital "C" and the hybrid is more like a backwards, upside-down capital "J". Unfortunately, neither are able to start far inside (left), go through the oil to the break point and then "slam" back into the pocket (hockey stick). The best I can do is to move slightly inside…throw up the middle…and allow the ball to go out 5-10 boards from the oil and then back into the pocket. But I'm not very consistent with that shot as of yet.

[RobLV1]

You've got cover material (solid, pearl, hybrid), surface (polished, dull, or somewhere in between), core (rg and differential), and layout (changes the rg and differential), and yet so many of you are trying to put everything on cover material. It's just not that simple! All of the elements contribute to ball motion. If you don't take all of them into account, you'll never even begin to understand modern bowling.

[MICHAEL]

You've got cover material (solid, pearl, hybrid), surface (polished, dull, or somewhere in between), core (rg and differential), and layout (changes the rg and differential), and yet so many of you are trying to put everything on cover material. It's just not that simple! All of the elements contribute to ball motion. If you don't take all of them into account, you'll never even begin to understand modern bowling.

I think one of The MOST important things is, HOW YOUR ball is drilled!!! I personally can't think of ONE more important aspect of a balls performance then the various pitches, and measurements, including pin position.

I have been experimenting with different grips, and pin positions, and

A GAME CHANGER for ICE, was and is the Tri-Grip!

MIGHT NOT WORK for everyone one, but EVERYONE I KNOW around here that has had BP's Pro Shop drill this method has been CRAZY about it!

MUCH MORE comfortable, Ball fells lighter due to distribution of weight in hand, better alignment, thumb comes out quicker, and more accuracy!

There I've said it again.... ( sounds like a song by some one lol)

So many things go into CREATING THE PERFECT STORM, (no pun intended)!

But as I have said before and still stand by it, GIVE JASON ANYBODIES BALL, Any weight, any span as long as he can get his fingers in the hole, and that Dude will throw a 200 game or higher....

Some how he compensates all the above factors to make who anybody's ball work for HIM! HE HAS THAT GIFT, I have talked about!

Everything mentioned, ball specks, weight, and how its drilled is VERY IMPORTANT, and only experimentation will find that Golden Ball as I have with my Deadly Aim! It takes time, trial and error, but the combination of all mentioned can unleash a MONSTER!!
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/bowling-fire1_zps69cdc85a.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/bowling-fire1_zps69cdc85a.jpg.html)

[RobLV1]

Michael:

I agree that how a ball is drilled is very important, but you have to remember to separate the two factors: how it fits, and how it is laid out. The fit is paramount. If the ball doesn't fit the hand of the bowler, nothing else about it really matters. The layout, on the other hand, does nothing more than determine how the core is positioned within the ball. This position determines the actual numbers (rg and differential) as the numbers that are supplied by the manufacturer is for an undrilled ball.

In the end, there are only two factors in bowling balls that determine how it reacts (specific to the release of the bowler): resistance and friction. All of the elements, cover material, surface, core specifications, and layout relate to these two things. The low rg, and by association, the layout determine the amount of resistance, while everything else determines the amount of friction. That's what I was trying to get at in my last post. All of these things work together, and no one thing is more important than another. The only consideration in reality is this: the cover material, the core numbers, and the layout are all set - they cannot be easily changed. The one thing that can be modified very easily, countless times, is the surface finish. If you don't have a set of abralon pads in your bag at all times, you are seriously missing the boat in terms of tailoring your ball reaction prior to the start of competition.

[MICHAEL]

Michael:

I agree that how a ball is drilled is very important, but you have to remember to separate the two factors: how it fits, and how it is laid out. The fit is paramount. If the ball doesn't fit the hand of the bowler, nothing else about it really matters. The layout, on the other hand, does nothing more than determine how the core is positioned within the ball. This position determines the actual numbers (rg and differential) as the numbers that are supplied by the manufacturer is for an undrilled ball.

In the end, there are only two factors in bowling balls that determine how it reacts (specific to the release of the bowler): resistance and friction. All of the elements, cover material, surface, core specifications, and layout relate to these two things. The low rg, and by association, the layout determine the amount of resistance, while everything else determines the amount of friction. That's what I was trying to get at in my last post. All of these things work together, and no one thing is more important than another. The only consideration in reality is this: the cover material, the core numbers, and the layout are all set - they cannot be easily changed. The one thing that can be modified very easily, countless times, is the surface finish. If you don't have a set of abralon pads in your bag at all times, you are seriously missing the boat in terms of tailoring your ball reaction prior to the start of competition.

I agree with the above, ( for what little its worth), not having nearly the education and training you have Rob in the field of bowling! Bowling is a very complex game when really getting down to the nitty-gritty!

And although I have said the GIFTED RULE,,, LOL,,,, knowledge is power even to the GIFTED!

[rv driver]

I think one of The MOST important things is, HOW YOUR ball is drilled!!! I personally can't think of ONE more important aspect of a balls performance then the various pitches, and measurements, including pin position.

I have been experimenting with different grips, and pin positions, and

A GAME CHANGER for ICE, was and is the Tri-Grip!

MIGHT NOT WORK for everyone one, but EVERYONE I KNOW around here that has had BP's Pro Shop drill this method has been CRAZY about it!

MUCH MORE comfortable, Ball fells lighter due to distribution of weight in hand, better alignment, thumb comes out quicker, and more accuracy!

There I've said it again.... ( sounds like a song by some one lol)

So many things go into CREATING THE PERFECT STORM, (no pun intended)!

But as I have said before and still stand by it, GIVE JASON ANYBODIES BALL, Any weight, any span as long as he can get his fingers in the hole, and that Dude will throw a 200 game or higher....

Some how he compensates all the above factors to make who anybody's ball work for HIM! HE HAS THAT GIFT, I have talked about!

Everything mentioned, ball specks, weight, and how its drilled is VERY IMPORTANT, and only experimentation will find that Golden Ball as I have with my Deadly Aim! It takes time, trial and error, but the combination of all mentioned can unleash a MONSTER!!
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/bowling-fire1_zps69cdc85a.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/bowling-fire1_zps69cdc85a.jpg.html)
I must have missed something. What, exactly, is the "tri-grip?"

[Bunny]

I must have missed something. What, exactly, is the "tri-grip?"



Here's one thread...


http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15018-THE-quot-Bill-Hall-Tri-Grip?highlight=tri-grip


Try the search function.

[Mike White]

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics? It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

If Concourse is the only wood lanes you bowl on, then in your experience wood lanes are the extreme end of the spectrum.

Those lanes were probably a decade past needing to be replaced. A bowling center abandoned in the 50's, and just left setting would still have lanes in better shape than Concourse.

Friction levels of a well maintained wood house are much closer to synthetic.

At Concourse there wasn't much difference between the 1st 15 feet, and the parking lot.

[Amyers]

Here's one thread...


http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/15018-THE-quot-Bill-Hall-Tri-Grip?highlight=tri-grip


Try the search function.

Bunny

I looked at this there is no info on the tri-grip other than Ice being a tri-grip 300 man. just wanted you to know.

[Aslan]

You've got cover material (solid, pearl, hybrid), surface (polished, dull, or somewhere in between), core (rg and differential), and layout (changes the rg and differential), and yet so many of you are trying to put everything on cover material. It's just not that simple! All of the elements contribute to ball motion. If you don't take all of them into account, you'll never even begin to understand modern bowling.

I agree...and I LOVE talking ball specs....but, I've been told by many on here that such talk is frowned upon because:
A) It makes Mudpuppy's head explode.
B) It's all "mumbo jumbo" that is meaningless compared to a bowlers natural gift (or lack there of).

Iceman...I disagree...I think drilling layout is fairly low on the scale of what impacts ball movement. I'd say it's:

1) surface
2) core
3) differential
4) RG
5) drilling layout (not including fit)

However, as Rob would probably point out...those 5 are all inter-linked (except for surface). So in other words...if DIFF is #3...diff is directly related to the core and the RG...and the drilling layout impacts the core position...so they are all interlinked. My "reasoning" for ranking them this way is:

1) Surface is proven to change ball movement.
2) Even though I'm less sure of the degree based on recent data...hypothetically the core shape/type can make the backend reaction more or less angular. (although, drilling can also impact this...interlinked)
3) The diff changes the flare...
4) The RG is linked to the diff...but RGs are generally similar from ball to ball. Most Rgs are 2.48-2.54...and I've not seen much data that supports a 0.01 difference in RG will actually do anything for an average bowler.
5) Drilling Layout...drilling layout can impact the ball..certainly...but it's limited to what the ball presents. You can "alter" it to make it behave certain ways...but at the end of the day you have to work with what the ball gives you.

I hope to film a little project later this month where I'm going to take two identical balls and let MWhite (ball driller to the stars) drill them very differently. The hypothesis is, that I'll end up with essentially 2 very different balls despite them being the exact same OotB. Realize, that is only a "hypothesis"...and is limited to what I can actually do with the ball (which is rather limited). Granted, we'll also use surface changes so it won't be a strict measurement of layout versus layout...but still, it should be an interesting experiement. I say I "hope" to film it...but thats going to depend on how busy Mike is at the time and also is limited to my computer editing abilities. I'm having trouble with editing large videos as I'm presently limited on hard drive space on my laptop. But I might be able to do it on an older version of the editing software on the old desktop...assuming my memory cards have enough memory to even do this.

[Aslan]

I must have missed something. What, exactly, is the "tri-grip?"

Bill Hall Tri-Grip. It's just a different way of drilling a ball. MWhite is trained to do it and can explain it better. Iceman tends to swear by it. I use it on one of my balls and plan to use it on future drillings.

Me personally, I like it because it makes the ball feel lighter and more comfortable in my hand. As to "describing it"....and this is a completely uneducated/untrained description...it seems to move the thumb left of where it normally goes. On my other balls, the thumb is sort of under the middle finger or in between the fingers. But with tri-grip, my thumb is sort of offset to the left of my middle finger. I think the "pitch/angle" is also different.

You can find info on the internet if you google it. I just know it feels more comfortable. I don't "swear by it" just yet...the jury is still out for me...but thus far I like it. The only "negative" is my thumb tends to get more calloused with tri-grip...but in fairness, both balls I've tried tr-grip have slightly larger thumbholes which is probably more related to the issue than tri-grip is.

[bowl1820]

I must have missed something. What, exactly, is the "tri-grip?"

The Tri-Grip is a fitting system for determining your span and finger pitches, that Bill Hall developed.

And is supposed to allow the ball to sit more balanced in your hand and come off cleaner. Thus increasing your revs, accuracy etc. etc.

Only a few pro shops do it, because it costs $200 for the video showing how to do it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6-k7XC97s

[RobLV1]

Aslan: Let me save you some time and money. One of the balls in my current arsenal is a Brunswick Mastermind Genius. It is drilled 55 X 4 1/4 X 45 to complement the layout on the Mastermind which is very strong. It just so happens that my coach and ball driller drilled up a second Genius for me: 40 X 5 1/4 X 65. The layouts look like this: 1. original - pin drilled out in the ring finger with the mass bias approximately 1/4" to the right of the thumb hole. 2. new layout - pin below the middle finger with the mass bias kicked out about 2" to the right of the thumb hole. I tried both balls this morning for the first time with the same surface. The differences were obvious. The original Genius goes medium/long with a fair amount of flare, and is smooth, tending toward angular on the back end. Then new Genius starts up very early (the mass bias being kicked out lowers the drilling angle which makes the ball start up quicker), shows much less flare as a result of the longer pin to PAP distance, and is much more arcing in terms of the transition. While the differences in the layouts are not radical, the resulting ball motion is totally different. Is one better than the other? It all depends on how they are to be used. The original ball works very well, as I said earlier, as a compliment to the Mastermind. I am, however, really looking forward to trying the new version on the 45' Route 66 pattern tomorrow night.

By the way, from what I've read, 0.01" difference in low rg equates to approximately 2 1/2" in length down the lane.

[Amyers]

Aslan: Let me save you some time and money. One of the balls in my current arsenal is a Brunswick Mastermind Genius. It is drilled 55 X 4 1/4 X 45 to complement the layout on the Mastermind which is very strong. It just so happens that my coach and ball driller drilled up a second Genius for me: 40 X 5 1/4 X 65. The layouts look like this: 1. original - pin drilled out in the ring finger with the mass bias approximately 1/4" to the right of the thumb hole. 2. new layout - pin below the middle finger with the mass bias kicked out about 2" to the right of the thumb hole. I tried both balls this morning for the first time with the same surface. The differences were obvious. The original Genius goes medium/long with a fair amount of flare, and is smooth, tending toward angular on the back end. Then new Genius starts up very early (the mass bias being kicked out lowers the drilling angle which makes the ball start up quicker), shows much less flare as a result of the longer pin to PAP distance, and is much more arcing in terms of the transition. While the differences in the layouts are not radical, the resulting ball motion is totally different. Is one better than the other? It all depends on how they are to be used. The original ball works very well, as I said earlier, as a compliment to the Mastermind. I am, however, really looking forward to trying the new version on the 45' Route 66 pattern tomorrow night.

By the way, from what I've read, 0.01" difference in low rg equates to approximately 2 1/2" in length down the lane.

Rob I think the point of Aslan's test is to see if it make any difference in the roll of the balls with his low rev style.

[RobLV1]

I too am rev challenged compared to many of the modern power players. As I have seen Aslan bowl, I can tell you that my rev rate is a little bit higher, but the differences in layouts should be as significant based on the fact that rg will be a bigger factor for a lower rev player, while friction will be a bigger factor for a higher rev player.

[Aslan]

Aslan: Let me save you some time and money. One of the balls in my current arsenal is a Brunswick Mastermind Genius. It is drilled 55 X 4 1/4 X 45 to complement the layout on the Mastermind which is very strong. It just so happens that my coach and ball driller drilled up a second Genius for me: 40 X 5 1/4 X 65. The layouts look like this: 1. original - pin drilled out in the ring finger with the mass bias approximately 1/4" to the right of the thumb hole. 2. new layout - pin below the middle finger with the mass bias kicked out about 2" to the right of the thumb hole.

Did you tape it? Why am I not watching it on youtube right now?? All I can think is, that is it's the same ball driller that I met when I was out there...that he looks so much like the guy that stars on that show "Once Upon a Time" on ABC that he's scared to be on camera because people will mob him. Rob! If you're going to steal my awesome ideas...at least TAPE THEM!!

Not sure how it saves me money. Let me clarify...I want to have them both drilled up differently to essentially give me two different balls and expand my arsenal. The only difference is I was going to tape it because while there are a lot of videos on ball drilling...and a couple on drilling the same ball differently...I haven't seen any where an amateur guy like me has balls drilled differently and then sees if there's a noticeable difference. I saw a video where Mike Fagan did it..but;
A) I didn't much of a difference.
B) It's Mike Fagan....so that has about 2% relation to my game.


I tried both balls this morning for the first time with the same surface. The differences were obvious. The original Genius goes medium/long with a fair amount of flare, and is smooth, tending toward angular on the back end. Then new Genius starts up very early (the mass bias being kicked out lowers the drilling angle which makes the ball start up quicker), shows much less flare as a result of the longer pin to PAP distance, and is much more arcing in terms of the transition. While the differences in the layouts are not radical, the resulting ball motion is totally different.

Interesting. That is actually quite encouraging. I imagine even with my lower revs, if I add in surface changes...I might be able to see an even bigger difference.



By the way, from what I've read, 0.01" difference in low rg equates to approximately 2 1/2" in length down the lane.

Really!? Thats actually amazing. I would have never guessed 0.01 would have that much of a result.

Also, I must mention...that one of Mike's challenges..probably his biggest challenge in this experiement is that at the end of the day he needs to make both balls "useable" for my game as it is currently. If that were not a restriction...he could just go bat**** crazy and make 2 balls that are radically different and both would be useless. So he's tasked with making them react in a noticeably different way (so I don't have two of the same balls in my bag) BUT while making them both of value to the bowler (me).

[fortheloveofbowling]

In my opinion for the every day bowler who is trying to get better they should find a drilling they like and stick with that mostly. Then buy different strength balls and change them with surface. Most of the guys on tour have a similar drilling on 4-5 balls and then a couple of trick drillings for certain extreme situations. I have messed around for years with all kinds of pin distances and weight holes and alot of times i end up with different balls that do basically the same thing. A lot of knowledge is a tremendous tool and a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing when it comes to layouts on a bowling ball. For the guy who is just trying to improve you are better off not chasing that magic layout.

[RobLV1]

Aslan:

No, I didn't tape it, though I've done the same thing before with pin up and pin down Zero Gravities. This will save you money because, regardless of what others may tell you, the two different drillings will not give you the same effect as buying two different bowling balls. Each time I've done this myself over the years (probably five or six times), I've always ended up with one ball that I use a lot, and one ball that I rarely use at all, and end up giving away.

Yes, it's the same ball driller that you met, Mike Tucker, at Southpoint.

ForTheLoveOfBowling: I agree completely which is why I have long recommended that bowlers find a couple of layouts that work for them and stick with them. In this way, bowlers learn much more about what actually affects ball reaction, rather than try to overly manipulate balls by using layouts that try to make the ball do somehting that it was not intended to do, ie., "Take this overly-aggressive bowling ball that is designed to roll early, and drill it to go long and snap."

[MICHAEL]

Aslan:

No, I didn't tape it, though I've done the same thing before with pin up and pin down Zero Gravities. This will save you money because, regardless of what others may tell you, the two different drillings will not give you the same effect as buying two different bowling balls. Each time I've done this myself over the years (probably five or six times), I've always ended up with one ball that I use a lot, and one ball that I rarely use at all, and end up giving away.

Yes, it's the same ball driller that you met, Mike Tucker, at Southpoint.

ForTheLoveOfBowling: I agree completely which is why I have long recommended that bowlers find a couple of layouts that work for them and stick with them. In this way, bowlers learn much more about what actually affects ball reaction, rather than try to overly manipulate balls by using layouts that try to make the ball do somehting that it was not intended to do, ie., "Take this overly-aggressive bowling ball that is designed to roll early, and drill it to go long and snap."

VERY GOOD point Rob! I have never give it much thought in regards to pin placement fitting the type of ball! With that logic drilling a say, mastermind to go long and flip, would be defeating its purpose, and design!
Where as a say, byte drilled pin up and even kicked out above the ring finger would suit its design!

GOOD POINT I will remember that excellent point!

[RobLV1]

The layout has to suit not only the ball, but the bowler's style as well. Personally I have a lot of trouble with some pin down layouts lately because I have very little axis tilt, so that some pin down layouts cause my bowling balls to start tracking over the thumb hole. To figure out before hand if a particular layout will work for you, draw a line from your PAP through the intended pin position. This will tell you where the bow tie will be. Because of my high track, that line on a pin down layout can cause the bow tie to be below the level of the finger holes which then brings the thumb hole into danger of hitting the track. Since I sometimes use a wrist brace, I've noticed that the wrist brace lowers my track ever so slightly which gets the track off of the thumb on pin down layouts. Because of this, my concession to getting the benefit of a pin down layout is that I know that I have to use the wrist brace when I throw that ball.

[Aslan]

This will save you money because, regardless of what others may tell you, the two different drillings will not give you the same effect as buying two different bowling balls. Each time I've done this myself over the years (probably five or six times), I've always ended up with one ball that I use a lot, and one ball that I rarely use at all, and end up giving away.

It "would"...but I already have both balls.

Thats kinda the only reason I'm doing the experiement (besides my own entertainment), due to a rather odd situation...I ended up buying two of the same balls at the same weight...and figured it would give me the opportunity to "play" with them. But I agree, normally I would buy different balls for different reactions...not do different layouts. This is a special case because I bought 1 of them at a really nice price...then another person showed up who heard I was looking for that ball and offered it to me for an even BETTER price. It was an offer I couldn't refuse. I figured I'd use one, get good with it, then use the other one down the road...but then I ended up with a closet full of bowling balls and decided I didn't want to use the same ball for 2-3 years.

I anticipate, the reaction difference will be minimized by my style...and that I'll probably end up using one drilling WAY more often than the other. But I'm okay with that. Maybe I'll even just give one away...but I doubt anyone will want it since it's a 3 year old model at 16lbs already drilled.