sandbagging

[Shaneshu87]

be honest have you ever done it? i will step up and admit that the last league i bowled in my whole team, easily 200+ average bowlers, got wasted drunk and set 130 averages to maximize on handicap, we then took turns rotating games to ensure we would always win, while everyone else bowled as close as possible to average to maintain low averages. lol anyone ever go this far, and PS our team name that year was "Sandbaggers" no joke we had shirts that said "big balls aint the only thing in our bag!"

[Aslan]

Uh oh. This is going to get ugly REAL quick.

Shane...all I'll say in an attempt to "try" and throw you a bone...is I think many people might not bowl up to their highest potential in week 1 of leagues. I learned my lesson in my 2nd ever league bowling my highest series ever (at that time). Made for a rough 5-6 weeks.

BUT...and I'm sure you'll get this from others...(getting lawn chair and popcorn for Iceman's comments)...no...throwing games intentionally and taking nights off and just outright not bowling your best in some attempt to win a trophy or money is so "not cool"...that I can't really think of a "less cool" thing that doesn't involve poison and a teammates drink or tackling an opponent on the approach. If you resort to that and win...what have you really won?? It's like beating up a 4th grader and then bragging about how tough you are. I mean...it's cheating. Is cheating cool? No, not really. And if I owned a center and I knew teams were doing it...I'd prefer not to have their business...because if they'd resort to that to win a trohpy...what other horrible things would they do to get what they want??

Recently the league I am in had to change their handicap policy to use book averages for all players new to the center. Apparently a player from another center came in last season, sandbagged the entire season, then cleaned up and won $800+ in sweeps. Not only is that not "cool"...it's "cheating"...and it's "stealing". And in certain circles...certain areas...it's the kind of behavior that people have been know to get beat up for. Woody Harrelson's character in Kingpin lost a hand over that kind of thing. As was mentioned in the song about Bad, bad Leroy Brown...."you gotta be careful hustlin folks strange to you."

[Shaneshu87]

hahaha to be somewhat fair it was in my young(er) and dumb(er) days, and we felt a little angry at the league from the previous season since it was handicap that gipped us out of first, the 2nd place team had averages of around 150, 3 of them shot 700's and the others shot 600's, we tried to call for a scratch tie breaker but they wouldn't have it. so we took justice into our own hands, and this was just in one league. and the last time i done it :)

[Shaneshu87]

Uh oh. This is going to get ugly REAL quick.

As was mentioned in the song about Bad, bad Leroy Brown...."you gotta be careful hustlin folks strange to you."

hahaha the writer of Leroy Brown is from my home town of Marshall, IL! his younger brother and my grandfather were in the same class

[Amyers]

I bowl a win lose or draw league with randomly selected opponents and teammates each week I will admit that I don't bowl any better in that league than it takes to win my individual point and team point each game if I'm way out in front I'm not saying I start tossing them in the gutter but I don't obsess about the spares the way I normally do. If this would be considered sandbagging then yes I've done it. Now I have never bowled poorly on purpose the first week or couple to set a lower average.

My regular team leagues I don't so this. I guess it feel okay since that one is more individual instead of team based.

[Shaneshu87]

i just hate how handicap is supposed to make every bowler equal. and everyone has that team they just hate to bowl because the have 400+ pins of handicap and you only get 23 pins, then they show up and bowl 50 pins over their average and you get swept lol

[ALazySavage]

I understand the frustration of bowling against teams that have massive amounts of handicap and then you have the 130 bowler shoot 190, but that is just like the 200 bowler shooting 257.

The thing that people must realize is that since most handicap leagues do either a 90% or 80% basis you are given an inherent advantage...5 man teams @ 90% of 220.... 23 pin handicap would be from a team average of 1,075 (assuming no one is above the 220 average mark) while the 400 pin handicap would be from a team average of 656. Making a handicap totals of 1,098 (2 pin penalty for being under 1,100) for the higher average team and 1,056 for the lower team (a 44 pin penalty for being under 1,100). If you have bowlers over the 220 average you have a bowler that essentially gets a handicap bonus; 228 bowler can bowl a 220 in this scenario and there is no penalty.

In this specific situation you did this as retaliation because of what you perceived as an unfair handicap situation that caused you to get 2nd instead of 1st, we can assume that this situation didn't cause you to lose every week or you wouldn't be second. Essentially what you did was not just sandbag against that one team but the entire league and I'm going to assume you bowled sweeper week with these sandbagged averages which again screws the rest of league. I just can't think of a situation that this makes sense; either you are bowling in a high money league (which I can't picture if there is that much handicap) or you sandbagged in order to take first place in a mom-and-pops house league.

[Shaneshu87]

I understand the frustration of bowling against teams that have massive amounts of handicap and then you have the 130 bowler shoot 190, but that is just like the 200 bowler shooting 257.

or you sandbagged in order to take first place in a mom-and-pops house league.

nailed it! lol as i said it was not our only league so none of us went to state with our sand bagged averages this was indeed a mom-n-pop wood lane house with 8 teams and we were sick of the drama, and pretty sure the second place team that beat us the year before were doing precisely what we were doing the year after we were beat. was it dirty? yeah. did it hurt anybody? no. eventually our actual averages caught up and we had to win the proper way, but this time that second place team was shut out and could root us out of 1st. we won a whopping $500 team prize lol totaly worth it

[RobLV1]

A few years ago the USBC did a study of all leagues accross the country and concluded that it would take a handicap of 116% of the average of the highest bowler in the league to actually result in equity between high average bowlers and low average bowlers. High average bowlers always have the advantage. That being said, I think that the idea of sandbagging is despicable. It is cheating, plain and simple, regardless of the petty excuses that bowlers come up with to justify doing it, ie., others have done it to me so I'm going to do it to them first. I have never sandbagged. I would never consider sandbagging, and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does, for whatever reason.

[rv driver]

Uh oh. This is going to get ugly REAL quick.

Shane...all I'll say in an attempt to "try" and throw you a bone...is I think many people might not bowl up to their highest potential in week 1 of leagues. I learned my lesson in my 2nd ever league bowling my highest series ever (at that time). Made for a rough 5-6 weeks.

BUT...and I'm sure you'll get this from others...(getting lawn chair and popcorn for Iceman's comments)...no...throwing games intentionally and taking nights off and just outright not bowling your best in some attempt to win a trophy or money is so "not cool"...that I can't really think of a "less cool" thing that doesn't involve poison and a teammates drink or tackling an opponent on the approach. If you resort to that and win...what have you really won?? It's like beating up a 4th grader and then bragging about how tough you are. I mean...it's cheating. Is cheating cool? No, not really. And if I owned a center and I knew teams were doing it...I'd prefer not to have their business...because if they'd resort to that to win a trohpy...what other horrible things would they do to get what they want??

Recently the league I am in had to change their handicap policy to use book averages for all players new to the center. Apparently a player from another center came in last season, sandbagged the entire season, then cleaned up and won $800+ in sweeps. Not only is that not "cool"...it's "cheating"...and it's "stealing". And in certain circles...certain areas...it's the kind of behavior that people have been know to get beat up for. Woody Harrelson's character in Kingpin lost a hand over that kind of thing. As was mentioned in the song about Bad, bad Leroy Brown...."you gotta be careful hustlin folks strange to you."
"Do you really win?" In this type of "strategy" (and I use that term very broadly), you're competing against numbers, not self, not people, not other teams -- not even pins or lane conditions. You're skewing numbers. Period. In most circles, that's not called "bowling," it's called "cooking the books."

[Aslan]

i just hate how handicap is supposed to make every bowler equal. and everyone has that team they just hate to bowl because the have 400+ pins of handicap and you only get 23 pins, then they show up and bowl 50 pins over their average and you get swept lol

People who don't like losing to handicap teams should bowl in scratch leagues. It's that simple. And in the old days, that would natually happen.

As I've posted before, if I ran the USBC, I'd simply set up a tiered system and it would all be based on book averages.

1) Beginners, new bowlers, and bowlers with an average under 121 would start out bowling no-tap. They would be ALLOWED to bowl up ONE division but would only get at most the handicap of a 121 average.

2) All bowlers with scratch averages of 121 to 175 would bowl in a handicap league. 85% of 190 for handicap. Once a bowler has a scratch average equal to or greater than 176 at the end of the season MUST move into a scratch division. Any bowler in the handicap division that CHOOSES to move into the scratch division has the option (so long as they have a 121 average or greater) but will receive no handicap.

3) All handicap bowlers that end with averages under 121 are given the option to move back into the no-tap leagues or continue in the handicapped division getting no more handicap than a 121 average bowler.

4) All bowlers in the scratch division that finish the season with an average under 176 are given the OPTION of moving back into the handicap divisions if they CHOOSE.

In that scenario, you limit "sandbagging" because people in the handicap division don't want to risk getting demoted into no-tap. And since all >175 average bowlers are bowling scratch...and the handicap is only 85% of 190...it would be very difficult to take advantage of the handicap division. I know people like "choice", but at this point...you have to weigh choice versus fairness and competitiveness. There are far, far, far too many good bowlers sitting in handicap leagues whining that they lose to teams with too much handicap...when what they need to do is bowl in a scratch league against other good bowlers and leave the handicap leagues for people that are still trying to build their basic game.

My team is the perfect nightmare example for Shane and others. 5 guys averaging (101, 109, 112, 173, 165). This league is 100% of 220!!! (not what I would have chose...I think thats stupid). This means that each week, our team walks in with the 2nd highest handicap total of 440 pins!! So all it takes is those low average bowlers to have a 148 or a 175 or a 138...and we're doing pretty well!!! But it's not our fault!! I didn't set the handicap at a stupid amount! And these 190+ average bowlers that complain about it...go join a scratch league if you don't like it!! With a 192-193 average...thats the beginning of scratch league material. I'm not saying you HAVE TO...but if you don't...you lose the right to complain. I have 4 bowlers on my team that haven't bowled in a league in the last 12 years. 3 of them have NEVER bowled in a league. 2 of them just bought their first bowling ball and 1 of them is using a $7 ball he got on Ebay. Are they to be expected to walk into league night and realistically defeat a team of players that have been bowling with a 185-215 average for the last 12 years and bowling leagues for 40??

And we don't always win. Last week 2 of our 3 low average bowlers couldn't make it...our 165 average bowler was also out and our 207 average bowler bowled in his place. One of the absent low average bowlers was blanked and the other was replaced with a 150s average bowler. And our one low average bowler that actually showed up...one game he bowled an 85 and another he bowled a 97. It happens. Had we not suffered the 10-point deduction for the bowler that was absent...we might have taken 2 of 4...a couple games were close...but I had an off night and our 207 average bowler bowled 169, 168, 149.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Dude we can't even get enough people to bowl in leagues much less tell them what league to bowl in.

[Aslan]

Dude we can't even get enough people to bowl in leagues much less tell them what league to bowl in.

We'll add that to the "con" side of the list. :)

[mc_runner]

A few years ago the USBC did a study of all leagues accross the country and concluded that it would take a handicap of 116% of the average of the highest bowler in the league to actually result in equity between high average bowlers and low average bowlers. High average bowlers always have the advantage. That being said, I think that the idea of sandbagging is despicable. It is cheating, plain and simple, regardless of the petty excuses that bowlers come up with to justify doing it, ie., others have done it to me so I'm going to do it to them first. I have never sandbagged. I would never consider sandbagging, and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does, for whatever reason.

I have read the study but still don't really understand the science behind that number. In a pure 100% handicap league with no average limit, why would a higher average bowler win more? I can only think it comes down to being clutch and performing under pressure?

[Aslan]

I have read the study but still don't really understand the science behind that number. In a pure 100% handicap league with no average limit, why would a higher average bowler win more? I can only think it comes down to being clutch and performing under pressure?

From what I've seen, I think the higher average bowlers have the advantage of consistency and spare shooting. I've seen bad players strike a bunch and score well. But if they leave spares, they might not break 100.

Not sure if thats it, just a guess.

[MICHAEL]

NEVER SAND BAG!! There is NO Honor, or achievement in cheating! Lower then a **** ant is a Sand Bagger!
SO SAYS ICEMAN!
Everyone knows my thoughts on Handicap, bowling! Its for people who want and even playing field! I don't mind getting beat, it makes ICEMAN stronger, and want to come back at the person with all my 15 balls blazing! I will get that person, On any given day I can get anyone! Even your God, Aslan Walter Ray!! (AS I SAID on a given day, and that's good enough for ME) Is Walter a better bowler then anyone in the world?

He just might be.... but if I bowled him at the little bowling alley in Plattsburg Mo. I would ONLY DO IT SCRATCH!! I have my pride! I don't want a bunch of pin's!!!!

This new outlook, Taking Over This Country: Your all winners,,,, and no one ever loses in kids sports, makes my Ice melt!!!!

I was at a track meet for young kids the other day, and when the boys came across the finish line,,, 6 of them,,,, people ran up to them giving each of them a blue ribbon, saying.... YOUR A WINNER,,,, your all winners....... GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Man UP, Woman up...... bowl reality..... SCRATCH! If you win,,,, guess what???? YOUR REALLY DID!

I have seen sandbagging in action!!! It's a cancer to the sport of bowling, and anyone that does it should KNOW, that even if they win doing it, they will rot in ****, for even God Hates bowlers who cheat!!

Now I feel better!!! Got that off my chest!!!

[Hampe]

That being said, I think that the idea of sandbagging is despicable. It is cheating, plain and simple, regardless of the petty excuses that bowlers come up with to justify doing it, ie., others have done it to me so I'm going to do it to them first. I have never sandbagged. I would never consider sandbagging, and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does, for whatever reason.This pretty much sums up my sentiment real well. Handicaps are there to give beginners and casual players a chance against those of us who take the sport more serious....not to be taken advantage of by cheater scumbags.

[MICHAEL]

This pretty much sums up my sentiment real well. Handicaps are there to give beginners and casual players a chance against those of us who take the sport more serious....not to be taken advantage of by cheater scumbags.


YES Hampe,,, a great adjective! "cheater scumbag"! If any of you are out there, "GO look in the mirror right now"!

Are you back..... NOW YOU KNOW what a sandbagger looks like!

I have seen this scum, in action on a huge league at AMF NKC. almost 48 lanes full,,, on a given Saturday night. I was subbing for a bowling God around here Pat Henderson! I still remember this Gal with a solid 200 average, throing a gutter ball in the 10 frame knowing they had already won that game. "she smiled when it happened, tipping Ice off that it was her way of saying, We beat you, and since its the third game and we can't get total pins, " I am gong to keep my average from going up!"

Made me want to go over grab one of her 14lb balls and CRUSH IT IN TH PALM OF MY HAND!! This is Scum!

The more the prize money in a league, and the larger that league, the more this ugly scum comes to the surface.

ICEMAN bowls for the GLORY of the TEAM! MONEY, can be the ROOT of this evil that threatens to destroy bowling!

Why is bowling DOWN..... its SANDBAGGERS!!!

In the 1700s and 1800's they use to TAR and FEATHER Sandbaggers! Guess what?????? that took care of it for several hundreds of years!!!

Should we bring it back today....???? In those days they took their whisky, and bowling serious!!!

the guy below was caught RED handed sandbagging.... notice the very uncomfortable position straddling the pole, and the rejoice of the young boy blowing his horn!!
Even kids don't like sandbaggers!!!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/tar_and_feather_zps2584c11a.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/tar_and_feather_zps2584c11a.jpg.html)

[MICHAEL]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/tar_and_feather1_zps86c413b5.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/tar_and_feather1_zps86c413b5.jpg.html)

This unnamed person, sandbagged just ONCE to many times!

[fsbjcm]

People accused me of being a sandbagger in my summer league last week. I have and never will sandbag. I'm still learning how to bowl! I just started a few months ago! So I have a 120 game sandwiched in between 180 games, and I'm a sandbagger. Nope, I just managed to get the 10 pin out in the 180 games :)

I bowled a no-tap event last night and had a 300 game, and you would've thought I bowled a 900 no tap series. "You're a 148 average bowler! You shouldn't be bowling this good! You're sandbagging!"

Makes me very angry.

[classygranny]

I have read the study but still don't really understand the science behind that number. In a pure 100% handicap league with no average limit, why would a higher average bowler win more? I can only think it comes down to being clutch and performing under pressure?

In my league that is 100% handicap, I think the higher average bowlers believe they have a better opportunity of bowling more over their averages than the lower average bowlers. Some days, this just doesn't ring true though. I think it all comes out to who bowls the best at the most opportune time. Which is true in most sports, who is the best on their game at that time. We have had the lowest team average in first and we have seen the highest average team in first.


People accused me of being a sandbagger in my summer league last week. I have and never will sandbag. I'm still learning how to bowl! I just started a few months ago! So I have a 120 game sandwiched in between 180 games, and I'm a sandbagger. Nope, I just managed to get the 10 pin out in the 180 games :)

I bowled a no-tap event last night and had a 300 game, and you would've thought I bowled a 900 no tap series. "You're a 148 average bowler! You shouldn't be bowling this good! You're sandbagging!"

Makes me very angry.

Congrats! I'm taking a 150ish average bowler to the Vegas Senior No-Tap Tourney this month as my partner. He gets great count on his first ball, he just hasn't mastered his spares as of yet, especially the 10-pin. Anything can happen in no-tap, thus the name.

And, just for the record. I am NOT, have NEVER been, and WILL NEVER BE a sandbagger. I would find it very difficult not to bowl each ball to the best of my ability, so I would not even know how to sandbag. Nor would I be able to sleep with myself at night, knowing I had cheated myself in that way. Also, would never allow one on my team, either.

[rv driver]

NEVER SAND BAG!! There is NO Honor, or achievement in cheating! Lower then a **** ant is a Sand Bagger!
SO SAYS ICEMAN!
Everyone knows my thoughts on Handicap, bowling! Its for people who want and even playing field! I don't mind getting beat, it makes ICEMAN stronger, and want to come back at the person with all my 15 balls blazing! I will get that person, On any given day I can get anyone! Even your God, Aslan Walter Ray!! (AS I SAID on a given day, and that's good enough for ME) Is Walter a better bowler then anyone in the world?

He just might be.... but if I bowled him at the little bowling alley in Plattsburg Mo. I would ONLY DO IT SCRATCH!! I have my pride! I don't want a bunch of pin's!!!!

This new outlook, Taking Over This Country: Your all winners,,,, and no one ever loses in kids sports, makes my Ice melt!!!!

I was at a track meet for young kids the other day, and when the boys came across the finish line,,, 6 of them,,,, people ran up to them giving each of them a blue ribbon, saying.... YOUR A WINNER,,,, your all winners....... GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Man UP, Woman up...... bowl reality..... SCRATCH! If you win,,,, guess what???? YOUR REALLY DID!

I have seen sandbagging in action!!! It's a cancer to the sport of bowling, and anyone that does it should KNOW, that even if they win doing it, they will rot in ****, for even God Hates bowlers who cheat!!

Now I feel better!!! Got that off my chest!!!
...but you don't hold strong opinions, or anything.

Sorry -- couldn't resist. I like a man who stands by his principles.


I stood by my principal once. I got detention...

[Aslan]

Everyone knows my thoughts on Handicap, bowling! Its for people who want and even playing field! I don't mind getting beat, it makes ICEMAN stronger, and want to come back at the person with all my 15 balls blazing! I will get that person, On any given day I can get anyone! Even your God, Aslan Walter Ray!! (AS I SAID on a given day, and that's good enough for ME) Is Walter a better bowler then anyone in the world?

He just might be.... but if I bowled him at the little bowling alley in Plattsburg Mo. I would ONLY DO IT SCRATCH!! I have my pride! I don't want a bunch of pin's!!!!

This new outlook, Taking Over This Country: Your all winners,,,, and no one ever loses in kids sports, makes my Ice melt!!!!

I was at a track meet for young kids the other day, and when the boys came across the finish line,,, 6 of them,,,, people ran up to them giving each of them a blue ribbon, saying.... YOUR A WINNER,,,, your all winners....... GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Man UP, Woman up...... bowl reality..... SCRATCH! If you win,,,, guess what???? YOUR REALLY DID!

Except for the little fact that you also bowl in handicap leagues...which you left out. And your refusal to bowl in sport leagues, tournaments (even the beloved VBT!), etc... But yeah, other than that...you're a glaring statue of hope and dignity. (makes Archie Bunker fart noise with hand)

Listen handicap haters...I'll say what I said when MWhite was complaining about handicap...and this actually DOESN'T apply as much to Iceman....but what good scratch bowlers tend to forget...is they have 25-35 YEARS of experience. Bowling doesn't have divisions (although it should). It doesn't have minor leagues and major leagues. It doesn't have tiered farm systems. One minute you're cosmic bowling and the next minute you're a sanctioned league bowler.

So it's always nice to hear from 25-year veterans saying giving a player handicap is cheating...and despite my IMMEDIATE arguement that nobody has a gun to your head MAKING you avoid scratch leagues...my SECOND response is...feel free to bowl against these beginners using ONLY the knowledge and skill you had 24 years ago...since that would technically be fair. Mike didn't just give me and ZDawg handicap pins because he was the better bowler....he gave us handicap pins to even out (or attempt to even out) the 30 years experience difference. In a perfect world (as I layed out earlier)...a 195 average bowler would never have the opportunity to bowl against beginners in a handicap league. But with the sport in decline, as ftlob mentioned, we just don't have the luxury of "divisions" and thus must have handicap leagues.

As to cheating/sandbagging...like I said...what did you really win? You're a great bowler now cuz you have a trophy you had to cheat to get? And unfortunately, it's like a cancer. As the OP mentioned...once one team does it and gets rewarded, then another team feels slighted and decides to "one up" them the next season. Pretty soon everyone is doing it because it's just considered to be "part of the game".

I saw this in paintball. In paintball, cheaters will "wipe" which means they will get hit, duck down, wipe of the paint, then continue firing. It got so bad, that players were claiming it was "part of the game". In other words, everyone is doing it, so it's now a "skill". And it put fields in a bad spot because they wanted to crack down on it, but like bowling, they don't make enough money to start banning players from the field. At the same time, "wiping" was leading to some players not playing anymore and other players to actually physically fight with each other.

Did I ever wipe? Never. Not intentionally. Never. Did I ever "cheat". Well...there were probably a couple times I had a "suspicion" that my gun was firing hot (exceeding the fps limit) and I didn't have it retested immediately. But other than that, I only ever "intentionally cheated" once and that was when I had a new gun/marker and was experiementing with the firing modes. I knew I wasn't "allowed" to use the multi-fire mode (fires more than once with one pull of the trigger)...but I did anyways because it was new and I just wanted to play with it. And...I didn't have it turned all the way up. AND...I got caught...so the ref changed the mode back to the legal mode and I left it there. Figures. I cheat once and get caught.

But i just never really understood people that routinely cheat to win. I don't have a lot of trophys on my mantle...but of the ones I have...I can feel proud that I actually earned them. I can't imagine having a trophy on the shelf that I know I had to cheat to get. I wouldn't even want to look at it.

[Bunny]

We have some at our Thursday night league. Hubby called them out last year when we bowled our first league. They're still doing it. They get drunk and switch bowling hands the first night. Then, if they have to bowl a good team during the league they don't show and make-up bowl where they get the lanes all to themselves and know what score they have to beat. They've showed up for less than half the league this season but are in first place. Again. They've won the hokey trophy like six times in row. What a bunch of a-ho's.

We've brought it up but AMF doesn't do diddly. (The sneak booze in water bottles too BTW.) One girl said something to one of the sandbaggers about switching hands and her told her that he could do whatever the hell he wanted. What a total douche bag! I called the same guy out and now if he sees me watching him bowl he misses (and not on purpose.) Serves him right!

I saw we were bowling them a couple of weeks ago and asked my teammates if we could pre-bowl or make-up bowl but the guy on my team was all gung-ho to bowl that night. I told them that I couldn't bowl that night but they went anyway. A few days later the other girl on my team said that it was total BS the sandbaggers had the same handicap as us. She had a horrible time. The sandbaggers kept asking her why she wasn't having a good time. I tried to warn ya. I will never bowl there in a league again.


I can't do it. I'm not really good enough yet to take it down a notch. I thought about easing up a bit the second game last week on PBAE because we're trying to establish our averages and USBC adds around 20-23 pins to sport for my regular average at my level. That's all I had to do was think about it for a split second. I bowled crappy that game and hated it. I wasn't trying to bowl crappy, it just happened. Then I bowled a 223 to make up for it (172 average.) I bowled a 166 average on Shark this week so it all evens out. I'm not a 195 average bowler. Like I said I'm not good enough to roll crappy games on purpose. It just happens naturally!! :p

[Bunny]

In my league that is 100% handicap, I think the higher average bowlers believe they have a better opportunity of bowling more over their averages than the lower average bowlers. Some days, this just doesn't ring true though. I think it all comes out to who bowls the best at the most opportune time. Which is true in most sports, who is the best on their game at that time. We have had the lowest team average in first and we have seen the highest average team in first.

Congrats! I'm taking a 150ish average bowler to the Vegas Senior No-Tap Tourney this month as my partner. He gets great count on his first ball, he just hasn't mastered his spares as of yet, especially the 10-pin. Anything can happen in no-tap, thus the name.



Perfect for no-tap! It's the folks that can hit the pocket most of the time but have trouble picking up their spares that do well at no-tap.

Good luck and good bowling! Have fun!!

[Aslan]

We've brought it up but AMF doesn't do diddly. (The sneak booze in water bottles too BTW.) One girl said something to one of the sandbaggers about switching hands and her told her that he could do whatever the hell he wanted. What a total douche bag! I called the same guy out and now if he sees me watching him bowl he misses (and not on purpose.) Serves him right!

Thats a non-sanctioned league though right?

See, thats the other reason I only do sanctioned leagues. It seems like the non-sanctioned leagues and no-tap leagues there are a lot of people that ate there just to have fun and they really don't care. In a sanctioned league...if those people acted like that, they WOULD likely be gone. I'm not saying sanctioned leagues are super serious or anything...but people have a good deal of money invested in sanctioned leagues and there are presidents, secretarys, etc...

As for the "booze" thing...just so ya know...at Concourse it's a ONE strike policy on outside liquor. Lots of alleys get really "picky" about that because technically they could lose their liquor liscence over that kinda garbage. So they may not care if a team is cheating...but sneaking liquor in...THAT they will care about.

Case in point: Last week in the Friday league I was subbing in...

One of the approaches was sticky, so the alley fixed it...but then it was too slippery. So one team said they felt it was unsafe to bowl on and that team just up and left. Well, in the middle of game 2...all the team captains had to meet and vote on how to handle that because the team that stayed wanted to continue bowling. So they had to discuss options and then have a vote. Personally, I blame the center for not having another set of lanes available. Many houses will leave an empty pair in between league and open bowlers...and that will serve as a back-up should problems arise. But, since this center is greedy and doesn't want to leave a set of lanes open during league play...they end up with this problem (not to mention the annoyance when you get stuck next to cosmic bowlers during league play).

But thats just an illustration...sanctioned leagues tend to not just "let things go"...and if people are bowling with an alternate hand or clearly sandbagging...teams aren't shy about making a big issue out of it.

[MICHAEL]

Scratch leagues are VERY HARD TO FIND! Handicap leagues amount to 95 percent of all bowing around the Kansas city area. Then if you do find one, does it work with the days you CAN BOWL??

Sure no one makes a person bowl kiddy bowling, where you get pins just because you not that good! MAN UP!! Woman UP,,, eliminate all this Sand bagging B.S., ONCE AND for ALL! Its all over Kansas city spreading like locust!!! It's not unlike a Biblical plague!!

Is it that important to beat a BETTER BOWLER, by getting Godzilla amounts of pins, even if YOUR NOT A SAND BAGGER!

Did you really beat that Gifted bowler,,,,, NO!

What satisfaction is there in beating someone that really didn't HAVE A LEVEL playing Field!

HEY I am no Gifted bowler, with a 220 up average, but I do beat them on given days, and it FEELS GOOD! IT''S CALLED REALITY!!

REALITY is a good thing! This leveling the playing field is for people with NO PRIDE.

Does Iceman like to Win,,,, YES ,,,, but only if I really Win!!

Does losing to a better bowler upset me? Hell NO! I just work that much harder to get them next time,,, I don't whine about it not being FAIR@#$#@!

DEMAND that your Bowing Alleys Have MORE SCRATCH LEAGUES! Tell them that your an American, and you don't want the easy make believe handicap bowling....

Tell them your not Handicapped, and that you don't have a handicap plate on your car!!

Handicap bowling should be for the handicapped!!!!! NOT for bowlers without!!

ONLY SURE way to eliminate this abomination!!! TAKE IT AWAY! Amen! ice

HWJB ,,,,, How would Jesus Bowl!

I think I know the answer to that!!

SCRATCH!!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/3ea9a23f-e52f-4b6a-a02b-1602f7b14f32_zps23b0c3d4.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/3ea9a23f-e52f-4b6a-a02b-1602f7b14f32_zps23b0c3d4.jpg.html)

[ALazySavage]

@Bunny: Somone correct me if I'm wrong in this situation, but in a sanctioned league I'm pretty sure that switching hands required a league vote and for the bowler to re-sanction. If you encounter this situation again, maybe you should let the guy throw one or two shots, pull out the rulebook, and then have the threat of having to repay the sanction fee loom over their head.

[Bunny]

Thats a non-sanctioned league though right?

See, thats the other reason I only do sanctioned leagues. It seems like the non-sanctioned leagues and no-tap leagues there are a lot of people that ate there just to have fun and they really don't care. In a sanctioned league...if those people acted like that, they WOULD likely be gone. I'm not saying sanctioned leagues are super serious or anything...but people have a good deal of money invested in sanctioned leagues and there are presidents, secretarys, etc...



You're right. It's Non-Sanctioned. Never again!!



@Bunny: Somone correct me if I'm wrong in this situation, but in a sanctioned league I'm pretty sure that switching hands required a league vote and for the bowler to re-sanction. If you encounter this situation again, maybe you should let the guy throw one or two shots, pull out the rulebook, and then have the threat of having to repay the sanction fee loom over their head.


See above.

That's the only reason they get away with it. :mad:

[bowl1820]

@Bunny: Somone correct me if I'm wrong in this situation, but in a sanctioned league I'm pretty sure that switching hands required a league vote and for the bowler to re-sanction. If you encounter this situation again, maybe you should let the guy throw one or two shots, pull out the rulebook, and then have the threat of having to repay the sanction fee loom over their head.

They don't have too re-Sanction, they have to establish a new average with the new hand.


118b. How Established
Each league shall adopt a rule to determine the number of games required to establish an average in
that league. The following applies when establishing an average:
1. A right-handed bowler must always bowl right-handed. Similarly, a left-handed bowler must always
bowl left-handed.
Penalty: Forfeiture of game.

118e. Establish New Average due to Change in Delivery
If because of injury or disability a bowler finds it necessary to change delivery from right- to lefthanded
or vice-versa, the league board of directors, by majority vote, may permit the bowler to change
delivery. If approval is obtained, the bowler must establish a new average.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118b.
118b/1 If a bowler uses his/her opposite hand to make a delivery during a game, what
happens?
If an individual does not have permission from the league board of directors, a league officer
or the league board would then have the following options within the timelines as stated in
Rule 119.
Option 1: Declare the individual’s game forfeited: The bowler would receive zero for the
game. (Note: Scores bowled by the other team members not in violation stand as
bowled.)
Option 2: Declare the team’s game forfeited: The team would receive zero for the game.
(Note: The individual in violation would receive zero. However, scores bowled by
the other team members count toward their individual averages and league awards
unless the league rules state otherwise.)

[circlecity]

Sandbaggers just plain out suck!!! I don't care what your excuse is or what age you were is reveals a lot about your character. Nuff Said..

[MICHAEL]

Sandbaggers just plain out suck!!! I don't care what your excuse is or what age you were is reveals a lot about your character. Nuff Said..

YES, and it seems like there numbers are GROWING! I think serious consideration of prison time should apply! If you can go to prison for smoking a joint, the HOW MUCH WORSE is Sandbagging!!!!! LOTS!! 20 years, with no chance of parole until 5 years!

[Aslan]

@ Ice...I have 2 problems with your logic on handicap/scratch leagues...well, 3...

1) So it's unfair for a new bowler to win because they bowled a 178, and bowled 40 pins above their average...when their opponent has 30 years of bowling experience, a 205 average, and bowled a 182?? You as the 205 bowler would feel "proud" of your sub-par performance??

2) Scratch leagues don't exist...because every place that tries them gets very little interest. Why? Because of the well known and well established fact that bowler egos are out of control and these 200+ average bowlers don't WANT to lose. They don't want to play in scratch leagues or bowl in tournaments or on sport patterns because they're afraid...and their ego will not allow them to bowl a 153. So it is the HIGH average bowlers that keep handicap leagues dominant...not lower average bowlers.

3) On the flip side...the obvious reason for handicap is without it you lose 2/3 of your bowlers. When I started out I had a 121 average. Nobody would want me on a scratch team. I have 3 bowlers on my team averaging around 110...new bowlers...I'd never have them on my team in a scratch league and they wouldn't want to play there anyways. I sympathize with you on this issue, but I'm trying to do my best to GROW the sport I love...and forcing new players to get obliterated for 3-4 years while they learn the game is NOT going to help.

The real answer Ice...is DIVISIONS. The best tournaments (bowling) are the ones with divisions. I played in one back in February. That way, you're bowling against a group of people all at your skill level. THEN....scratch will work. People still will cheat..it happens in every sport I've played. It was horrible in Ice Hockey where guys that played juniors somehow manged their way onto a C-League team...and they had to create a "D-League" because too many "non-beginner teams" were playing in the "Beginner C-League". So it's not perfect...but divisions solve the problem of scratch/handicap and to a big extent sandbagging.

[rv driver]

Silly me...

didn't think it was about winning/losing anyway, so much as it is about doing the best you can do and having fun doing it. People whose egos live in their bowling balls to that extent are dangerous, in more ways than one.

[vdubtx]

Sandbaggers just plain out suck!!! I don't care what your excuse is or what age you were is reveals a lot about your character. Nuff Said..


Silly me...

didn't think it was about winning/losing anyway, so much as it is about doing the best you can do and having fun doing it. People whose egos live in their bowling balls to that extent are dangerous, in more ways than one.

Absolutely agree!

I go out and do my best each and every time I step up to the lane. Been around sandbaggers and cannot stand them.

[mc_runner]

According to my post count I am a sandbagger. Never on the lanes, though! I am too competitive with myself to intentionally do worse than my best effort.

[Bunny]

Sandbaggers just plain out suck!!! I don't care what your excuse is or what age you were is reveals a lot about your character. Nuff Said..


Silly me...

didn't think it was about winning/losing anyway, so much as it is about doing the best you can do and having fun doing it. People whose egos live in their bowling balls to that extent are dangerous, in more ways than one.


Absolutely agree!

I go out and do my best each and every time I step up to the lane. Been around sandbaggers and cannot stand them.


According to my post count I am a sandbagger. Never on the lanes, though! I am too competitive with myself to intentionally do worse than my best effort.



All true! I'd be afraid of getting "Munsoned" in the parking lot. Carter's in a kind of shady area.

Hubby talked about bringing actual sand bags for the jerks. That would be funny! :D

[vdubtx]

Hubby talked about bringing actual sand bags for the jerks. That would be funny! :D

:cool: Like dis-honorary trophys.

[Bunny]

:cool: Like dis-honorary trophys.


Lol! We should write their team name and "1st Place" on it!

"Hey, we all pitched in and got your team something."

"Here ya go, Champs!" :p

[MICHAEL]

Silly me...

didn't think it was about winning/losing anyway, so much as it is about doing the best you can do and having fun doing it. People whose egos live in their bowling balls to that extent are dangerous, in more ways than one.

YOUR RIGHT ON BROTHER!! Ice agrees!! Man UP,,, Woman UP!!! Don't live in a delusionary world! You either beat someone, or they beat you!


If you don't like getting beat, work on your game instead of drinking beer, and mixed drinks, chasing women, or men all ove the bowling alley, and get BETTER AT BOWLING!

Beating someone with handicap is like winning the lottery IN YOUR DREAMS!!

[MICHAEL]

@ Ice...I have 2 problems with your logic on handicap/scratch leagues...well, 3...

1) So it's unfair for a new bowler to win because they bowled a 178, and bowled 40 pins above their average...when their opponent has 30 years of bowling experience, a 205 average, and bowled a 182?? You as the 205 bowler would feel "proud" of your sub-par performance??

MAN UP BUD! NEW BOWLER, get real! YOU GOT BEAT! Get BETTER!!!


2) Scratch leagues don't exist...because every place that tries them gets very little interest. Why? Because of the well known and well established fact that bowler egos are out of control and these 200+ average bowlers don't WANT to lose. They don't want to play in scratch leagues or bowl in tournaments or on sport patterns because they're afraid...and their ego will not allow them to bowl a 153. So it is the HIGH average bowlers that keep handicap leagues dominant...not lower average bowlers.

MAN UP! GET BETTER, Work on personal goals, eventually you will get better,,,, maybe!


3) On the flip side...the obvious reason for handicap is without it you lose 2/3 of your bowlers. When I started out I had a 121 average. Nobody would want me on a scratch team. I have 3 bowlers on my team averaging around 110...new bowlers...I'd never have them on my team in a scratch league and they wouldn't want to play there anyways. I sympathize with you on this issue, but I'm trying to do my best to GROW the sport I love...and forcing new players to get obliterated for 3-4 years while they learn the game is NOT going to help.

I would like to have you on my team Aslan, I would make a MAN OUT OF YOU!! I don't like excuses, or under achievers, I make champions out of them! The 2/3 you lose, are losers anyway, who cares? Its called Darwinism!!! WEED out the WEEDS!! Who needs them!!


The real answer Ice...is DIVISIONS. The best tournaments (bowling) are the ones with divisions. I played in one back in February. That way, you're bowling against a group of people all at your skill level. THEN....scratch will work. People still will cheat..it happens in every sport I've played. It was horrible in Ice Hockey where guys that played juniors somehow manged their way onto a C-League team...and they had to create a "D-League" because too many "non-beginner teams" were playing in the "Beginner C-League". So it's not perfect...but divisions solve the problem of scratch/handicap and to a big extent sandbagging.

I agree, they will still cheat... PRISION TIME FOR them!!! 20 years, no chance for parole until 5 years severed!
I do like the idea of divisions, better then handicap....

I DON"T EVEN LIKE THE NAME handicap in regards to bowling, UNLESS YOU TRULY are! I have a lot more respect for a handicap bowler then I do a perfectly healthy bowler that just can't bowl worth a shirt, and wants a bunch of pins, never really working on his game!

I am sorry if I sound cruel,,, but I have been in completive sports my whole life, Football, Track, swimming, you name it! I never had to give anyone I competed against a head start in track,,, tackle with one hand in football, swim with out using one of my arms, just to level the playing field because I had faster times?????

I never at William Jewell College had a track runner come up to Ice, and say,,, " I am not going to run against you, UNLESS YOU give me a 10 yard head start????????

Why Bowling?? LOL

[Shaneshu87]

this is great i love all the hate! lol to be fair im not trying to defend the actions of the person i used to be, 6 years ago i was new to bowling, only because i could carry a 200+ and be drunk as a skunk doing it ;) after 4 years of bowling in a drunken stupor and sandbagging the 3rd year in one league, i took 2 years off to sober up, which i have done, i have not had a drink in over a year. back in may this year i joined a sanctioned PBAE scratch league and i love it, however it is the only scratch league around my area. i can say i still do not like sandbaggers even though i was one, in one league, for half the season. would i do it again? if only to see the look on the a hole's, who've sandbagged every season, face when they got beat at their own game? heck yes i would! ICEMAN i agree with you, PONY UP! but there is a strategy in everything and sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. it worked, i'm not exactly proud of it, but just to beat those sandbaggers at their own game i'd do it again. the next time i face a team such as them, now that i have the practiced sober skill to bowl my best, that is exactly what i will do. for me this fall marks a new era in bowling! the drunken shane is dead, and the sober shane is deadly

[mike_thomas93]

I'm guessing that's what sandbagger means. Actually, I'd never heard or seen the word until i became a member on here. ;p And by the way my answer is no I've never done that. Since I don't drink ;p I'm one of the clean people lol

[rv driver]

this is great i love all the hate! lol to be fair im not trying to defend the actions of the person i used to be, 6 years ago i was new to bowling, only because i could carry a 200+ and be drunk as a skunk doing it ;) after 4 years of bowling in a drunken stupor and sandbagging the 3rd year in one league, i took 2 years off to sober up, which i have done, i have not had a drink in over a year. back in may this year i joined a sanctioned PBAE scratch league and i love it, however it is the only scratch league around my area. i can say i still do not like sandbaggers even though i was one, in one league, for half the season. would i do it again? if only to see the look on the a hole's, who've sandbagged every season, face when they got beat at their own game? heck yes i would! ICEMAN i agree with you, PONY UP! but there is a strategy in everything and sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. it worked, i'm not exactly proud of it, but just to beat those sandbaggers at their own game i'd do it again. the next time i face a team such as them, now that i have the practiced sober skill to bowl my best, that is exactly what i will do. for me this fall marks a new era in bowling! the drunken shane is dead, and the sober shane is deadly
Some ball company should come out with a hard-hitting ball with a great hook called "The Drunken Sailor." Brawls like no other!

[Blacksox1]

Sandbagging is a form of cheating. Does Aslan like cheaters ? Does anyone ?

[rv driver]

Sandbagging is a form of cheating. Does Aslan like cheaters ? Does anyone ?
Winners don't cheat; cheaters don't win.

Lying sacks o' poop!