If knowledge is power, why........

[MICHAEL]

No, it was something rv driver said: "I'm not a coach, but I used to be a bowler with an average just shy of 210." A bowler with an average of 210, or 220, or 230, or 240, or whatever is not a coach. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. If you want to learn to coach, go through the USBC Coaching Certification program. Contrary to popular belief, it's not just a matter of pay your money and get your certification. You actually have to learn something! Walter Ray Williams Jr., who has won more PBA titles than any other player in history EARNED his Silver Certification. The same can be said of Wendy Macpherson, Carolyn Dorin-Ballard (who is currently in charge of the USBC Coaching program), and many others including the late Tony Reyes, and Rhino Page who both attended the same Silver Certification class that I did. Even Mark Baker, with all of his fame and experience went through some of the certification program though I'm not sure how far (I just know that he was in the same Level I class that I was).

If you want to learn to coach, by all means, do it! There are far too few qualified bowling coaches out there, and, frankly, bowlers deserve to have us as a genuine resource to help them to learn this great game.


GOOD POINT ROB, ( I'm not a Coach but....)

Being a Coach and having all the incredible knowledge you have, why don't you have a 220 or higher average? I say this with all due respect!
Only reason I choose 220 plus, is that its a pretty darn hard target to hit for use non professional bowlers even on THS.

When you are shooting poorly, I would imagine you know exactly why, and how to correct it! I would imagine you know the right ball for certain lane conditions.

I know you have mentioned a few back problems! Is it Age, or injuries, on just not having that Gift WHAT keeps you from reaching that 220 plus average on house oil? Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I just wonder if knowledge translates into higher scores, why wouldn't yours be at that level???

I wish I had 1/10 the knowledge you have,,,, I WOULD not have any reservations ridding my bike 1600 miles TAKING ON THE GREAT ALMIGHTY ASLAN in Vegas this coming August or early September!

Rob,,, Do you think ICEMAN has even a chance???

Where are his weaknesses, how can I exploit them? LOL :rolleyes:

I thought this question might deserve a new thread:

Does Coaching translate into HIGHER SCORES (((( ALWAYS)))) Aslan being a prime example!

Aslan is a smart man, very well read in bowling, and even coached, but are there people who are just never going to be at that 220 level due to neurological, physical hand eye balance ect ect! Could it be as simple, in Aslan's case, that he is womanless, and lives in San Diego?

I am talking perfectly health people, WHO just don't seem to have that GIFT for the game? Do all your students make that 220 and above level??

I am sure some, maybe many have! But ,,, I bet a bunch never did, or will!

Don't you think what makes a great athletic is being born with the potential, and that coaching MAY or CAN then take them to their potential?

A GOOD Coach is defiantly a plus, Knowledge can be power, but only to a degree... YOU got to have that Gift!

[Hampe]

Lol....Iceman, the answer to your question is already in the post you qouted.....

"There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. "

And it's true....knowing the intricacies of HOW to do something is not the same as being able to do it yourself.

I think anybody that worked hard enough at it can get to 220+ average. Some people it will take much longer than others, maybe more time than they are able or willing to invest, but it should still be possible.

[mc_runner]

Think of it when you see someone struggling with timing on your team or something and it's clear as day they're doing something wrong. But then go up there and struggle yourself and it's a whole different ballgame with what goes through your head on how to fix it :P

[circlecity]

I believe it has been proven that with 10000 hours of practice on any subject you can master the art.

[MICHAEL]

Lol....Iceman, the answer to your question is already in the post you qouted.....

"There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. "

And it's true....knowing the intricacies of HOW to do something is not the same as being able to do it yourself.

In think anybody that worked hard enough at it can get to 220+ average. Some people it will take much longer than others, maybe more time than they are able or willing to invest, but it should still be possible.

You say anyone can (if they invest the time) LOL (:),,,, I hope I live long enough for Aslan to make that level of excellence!

If he does, then I will become a believer!!! LOL

I do believe he works hard, and does the coaching thing,,, when is this going to HAPPEN???? lol

In Rob's case, why not him??? His knowledge should be able to compensate for just about any problem on the lane? I know Rob is not a spring chick, but neither is this old broken down injured Iron Worker! I envy Rob and his knowledge, and one of the reasons I am on this sight is to gain knowledge.

I seriously don't think many of us on here have the ability to reach that 220 plus much less 230 level on THS at all!!

I only know a hand full around here.

BACK to ((THE GIFT))) either have it, or you don't!

I know I wish I had it!!!!!

Hampe having watched you bowl, ( some of your tournament stuff), I do think you have that ability and will reach that 220 level for what its worth!
Keep at it my Canadian Friend! (:)

SOME have the potential! It's just a matter of development, and time. Others,,, well... LOL,,,, Forget-About-It.... and enjoy the sport, dream the dream,,, but don't let it get you down when it doesn't happen,,, you will have your MOMENTS, and that makes it all wroth it! I know I have had mine!! Moments that is.. LOL !

[MICHAEL]

I believe it has been proven that with 10000 hours of practice on any subject you can master the art.


ASLAN There is HOPE!!

[MICHAEL]

I believe it has been proven that with 10000 hours of practice on any subject you can master the art.

YES maybe any subject, but a SPORT is something entirely different! It goes beyond knowing, there is that physical mind body coordination thing that has to be there. The Gift! LOL I have heard from some people close to Aslan, that he can't walk and chew gum at the same time????

If this is true, ( and I am NOT saying it is!)

maybe he will have huge problems hitting that 200 level? I kid Aslan,,,, but I do like him!

He is ,,,,, Aslan!!!

Read 100 books on how to hit a baseball, practice 8 hours a day, 7 days a week! Then see if you can even hit 350 in the professional baseball leagues! Knowing is one thing, even practice, BUT being able to perform at a high level, to a huge degree depends on your GIFT!

[rv driver]

Self-coaching rarely (if ever) works, because part of the coaching process involves objectivity which we cannot, by definition, have with ourselves. People with natural ability progress faster, but not necessarily further. It depends a lot on how much concentrated time one is able to commit to practice and learning. The coach comes into the equation at this point (something my band director always, always said): Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice your mistakes, guess what? You learn your mistakes. A coach can point out what you're doing wrong, and help with how to do it the right way.

Sure, if anyone (given a good body and a good mind) spends 10,000 hours of prefect practice, one will master bowling. but how many of us have the time, resources, or perseverance to actually do that at a pace that will produce results?

[RobLV1]

There are three things involved in mastering bowling to the point of being able to average 220+: Physical ability, knowledge, and mental ability. In my own case, my physical ability is limited, as you point out by my age. I may not have been an iron worker, but starting at the ground and working my way up, I have two ankles where the ligaments were torn not once, but twice while playing basketball. I have two knees that are toast from being a catcher for a while in baseball. I have a back with two bulging discs, most probably from lugging bowling balls around for a whole bunch of years in association with 45+ years of playing golf. I have a messed up shoulder from becoming a pitcher after I figured out that playing catcher was a lot more effort than it was worth, and finally, arthritis in my neck from God-knows-what. It's a miracle that I can get out of bed in the morning, much less bowl an average of 150 games a month. Yes, I have the knowledge which is better served in helping other people given my tendency to over-think everything for myself which equates to my own total lack of a mental game which can quickly go South from over-thinking. As an example, after the first four games of the Senior U.S. Open this year I was in 20th place, tied with eventual winner Norm Duke, before totally flushing myself down the toilet for the rest of the tournament.

That being said, please feel free to include me in your little match when you come to Vegas. I'm all in!

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob, What bowling center do you coach out of in vegas?

[Aslan]

Obviously be stating the fact that should I bowl against Iceman in person, he'd likely lose…I have done what is on par with hitting a bee hive with a broomstick…but that aside…my only take on this repeated topic is…if it was all gift, then why do the pros practice 20+ games a week in between tournaments? I mean, they already have the "gift" right?

And, if practice IS necessary to maintain that gift…then perhaps instruction and research will also be essential to maintaining that gift? And please, no examples of Iceman's merry men of Missouri…it is clear their "gift" is only valid on a THS in Missouri since they refuse to test it elsewhere.

[Amyers]

The truth is it takes all three to be great. Natural talent, coaching and practice. Take any of the three out and you will be limited with what you accomplish

Natural talent without practice and coaching will either practice their flaws or never learn important aspects of the game.

Coaching and practice without talent the bowler will improve but their are limits to how good they will become some people just don't have the body type, flexibility, or hand eye coordination to be great. I may fit in this boat I'm not sure if with the limits of my knee and general poor balance if that won't limit my game but I do believe you can still be very good you won't know where that ceiling is without coaching and practice.

Coaching and talent without practice is wasted if your not out there working on your game it will never improve.

All of us start somewhere and end up somewhere these items determine where we start and where we end up. At the end of the day if your missing any of three your not giving your all to reach the top of your abilities.

[circlecity]

There is no such thing as a "gift." If it existed where does this gift come from if I might ask?

[fortheloveofbowling]

A gift could be defined as a natural ability and i'm sure you would get varying answers to that question.

[RobLV1]

Rob, What bowling center do you coach out of in vegas?

Anywhere my students want to meet. After growing up in L.A., nowhere in Vegas is far by comparison.

[rv driver]

YES maybe any subject, but a SPORT is something entirely different! It goes beyond knowing, there is that physical mind body coordination thing that has to be there. The Gift! LOL I have heard from some people close to Aslan, that he can't walk and chew gum at the same time????

If this is true, ( and I am NOT saying it is!)

maybe he will have huge problems hitting that 200 level? I kid Aslan,,,, but I do like him!

He is ,,,,, Aslan!!!

Read 100 books on how to hit a baseball, practice 8 hours a day, 7 days a week! Then see if you can even hit 350 in the professional baseball leagues! Knowing is one thing, even practice, BUT being able to perform at a high level, to a huge degree depends on your GIFT!
Any successful person will tell you that success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Many people have wasted gifts through neglect. Many mediocre people have risen to the top through consistent practice.

[MICHAEL]

The truth is it takes all three to be great. Natural talent, coaching and practice. Take any of the three out and you will be limited with what you accomplish

Natural talent without practice and coaching will either practice their flaws or never learn important aspects of the game.

Coaching and practice without talent the bowler will improve but their are limits to how good they will become some people just don't have the body type, flexibility, or hand eye coordination to be great. I may fit in this boat I'm not sure if with the limits of my knee and general poor balance if that won't limit my game but I do believe you can still be very good you won't know where that ceiling is without coaching and practice.

Coaching and talent without practice is wasted if your not out there working on your game it will never improve.

All of us start somewhere and end up somewhere these items determine where we start and where we end up. At the end of the day if your missing any of three your not giving your all to reach the top of your abilities.

YEP!!! I agree! Two we have control over, one we don't,,, The Gift, ( talent might not be the right word, in that talent can be improved, IMHA, but the GIFT FOR ANY SPORT seems to be in our DNA!

[MICHAEL]

There is no such thing as a "gift." If it existed where does this gift come from if I might ask?

IT's in your DNA, and is determined to a huge degree at conception! Its that unique combination at CONCEPTION, that creates YOU!

The Word GIFT, that Iceman is using,,,,,,,, is,,,, or can be a CERTAIN arrangement of what went into making you,,,,, YOU, and not just like someone else.

Most all of us have a Gift it might be ,,,,, Art,,,, mechanical,,, running, Playing tennis, baseball, football, track bowling,,, ect ect.... its things that come EASY TO US!

It's a bio-mechanical thing that takes place at conception in my opinion. Some people have this metaphor, that Ice calls THE GIFT, and DON"T even know they have it.

My grandmother Pence, found out in her early 60's that she had HUGE amounts of Artistic Talent that she never knew she had!! She started painting and drawing at the late age of 63, and did some remarkable things, that I have in my house to this day!!

The Gift, almost everyone has it,,,,, Finding it is the TRICK!!!! Good luck !!

[MICHAEL]

Any successful person will tell you that success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Many people have wasted gifts through neglect. Many mediocre people have risen to the top through consistent practice.

Successful people are not always, GIFTED! A LOT can be said for HARD WORK, and perspiration,, in the business world especially.

I DON NOT UNDERPLAY THAT hard work, and perspiration are keys to success, but if you DO have the gift,,, its soooooo much easier!!

And in some sports, without The Gift you will never achieve success on a high level, regardless of the amount of perspiration, and hard work you put in!!

Example: Track and Field, Swimming, Football, basketball, weight lifting, ect.

1. Track run a 9.9 100 yard dash..( not going to happen

2. Basketball dunk a ball.... ( not going to happen)

3. Bench press 400 lbs,,, ( not going to happen

4. Football, work out REAL HARD try to make it on any NFL team. ( not going to happen with the gift)

All of the above REQUIRE THE GIFT ! I could list many ,,,, MANY more instances.


OK,,, I am not knocking HARD WORK, COACHING, and PRACTICE AT ALL! These 3 things will maximize your POTENTIAL!!

I am just saying even with the above, The PBA bowlers you see on TV Like Walter Ray, and many others, HAVE A UNIQUE GIFT that most of use bowlers don't have!

[rv driver]

Successful people are not always, GIFTED! A LOT can be said for HARD WORK, and perspiration,, in the business world especially.

I DON NOT UNDERPLAY THAT hard work, and perspiration are keys to success, but if you DO have the gift,,, its soooooo much easier!!

And in some sports, without The Gift you will never achieve success on a high level, regardless of the amount of perspiration, and hard work you put in!!

Example: Track and Field, Swimming, Football, basketball, weight lifting, ect.

1. Track run a 9.9 100 yard dash..( not going to happen

2. Basketball dunk a ball.... ( not going to happen)

3. Bench press 400 lbs,,, ( not going to happen

4. Football, work out REAL HARD try to make it on any NFL team. ( not going to happen with the gift)

All of the above REQUIRE THE GIFT ! I could list many ,,,, MANY more instances.


OK,,, I am not knocking HARD WORK, COACHING, and PRACTICE AT ALL! These 3 things will maximize your POTENTIAL!!

I am just saying even with the above, The PBA bowlers you see on TV Like Walter Ray, and many others, HAVE A UNIQUE GIFT that most of use bowlers don't have!
Here's where we disagree. The "Gift" can either be innate, or it can be developed.

[mc_runner]

Yeah, I think it's a lot different comparing say, a 9.9sec track runner vs a 220 average bowler, or a pro football player to a 220 average bowler. It's kind of a strawman - There's a handful of people who can do either of those things thanks to physical attributes most others don't have, so of course most of us can't just go out and DO that. Bowling is a much more mental game than simply being a freak of nature. And where I get bothered by the 220 average thing is how many people in houses have a 220+ average? Thinking on mine, on a THS... at least a couple dozen. And there's that kind of number in many houses all over the country. That's thousands of people with 220+ averages. I don't think they all have some type of "gift" that other people don't have.

[MICHAEL]

Here's where we disagree. The "Gift" can either be innate, or it can be developed.

OK,,, LET me say this about that! LOL I AGREE! But for the average bowler without the gift, ( YOUR NEVER going to be a Pete Weber!) regardless of how much time you put in, or coaching!

YES the metaphor I call THE GIFT, might also be called A PERSONS POTENTIAL base on the essence of YOU!

If you have A Gift, can it be developed with coaching???? SURE!!!

Have there been some VERY GIFTED, that excelled with out much coaching or training,,, YES! One example would be Babe Ruth! From what I have read about him, he was not into training, or even being coached, but did become one of the all time greats based on A FEW THINGS, Beer, Cigars, and Women! LOL

Could his Gift been developed to EVEN A HIGHER degree with TRAINING, and listening to Coaches,,, YES!! But then he had the GIFT TO BEGININ with!

There is NO disagreement between you and me in that a GIFTED person can take his/her gift to a higher level with someone helping to DEVELOPE that GIFT!

The SAD thing is this, we are all limited to OUR LEVEL of excellence, based on our Gift! (:)

[fortheloveofbowling]

Yeah, I think it's a lot different comparing say, a 9.9sec track runner vs a 220 average bowler, or a pro football player to a 220 average bowler. It's kind of a strawman - There's a handful of people who can do either of those things thanks to physical attributes most others don't have, so of course most of us can't just go out and DO that. Bowling is a much more mental game than simply being a freak of nature. And where I get bothered by the 220 average thing is how many people in houses have a 220+ average? Thinking on mine, on a THS... at least a couple dozen. And there's that kind of number in many houses all over the country. That's thousands of people with 220+ averages. I don't think they all have some type of "gift" that other people don't have.
The 220 average really depends on the house you bowl in also. It depends on the house shot they put out. For instance in phoenix there are lots of bowling centers with a big difference in par for an average. There are a few places i would almost guarantee a lot of you would average 10+ higher than you are now.

[MICHAEL]

Yeah, I think it's a lot different comparing say, a 9.9sec track runner vs a 220 average bowler, or a pro football player to a 220 average bowler. It's kind of a strawman - There's a handful of people who can do either of those things thanks to physical attributes most others don't have, so of course most of us can't just go out and DO that. Bowling is a much more mental game than simply being a freak of nature. And where I get bothered by the 220 average thing is how many people in houses have a 220+ average? Thinking on mine, on a THS... at least a couple dozen. And there's that kind of number in many houses all over the country. That's thousands of people with 220+ averages. I don't think they all have some type of "gift" that other people don't have.

In my short time bowling, I have talked to MANY, Many people, and ask a lot of questions. I know, many that have bowled for 20 years or more, good bowlers, that have NEVER reach that 220 level. Many have never bowled a 300 game or 800 series.

Sure its mental, and many things other things, but even the MENTAL can be related to your DNA, and ability to perform tasks! Some are just PLAN better at then others! Don't under estimate your 220 plus average, even if its on THS... I know dozens, of long term bowlers that have never reach that level on house oil!

I am going to enjoy watching Aslan as the years progress, I hope he can PROVE ME WRONG! I hope I prove myself Wrong,,, even though I have had Two 300's within 6 months of each other, and a 780 , and a dozen or so other 700 games, in my short time bowling, I know I am not Gifted.

I just have my moments!! LOL... LOL!!

And you know what,,, ICEMAN not being gifted in bowling is OK,,, I enjoy my GREAT MOEMNTS... I am not good enough to be a 220 or higher bowler, but that doesn't mean Iam going to quite trying!!!! ICE is a DREAMER!! (:) One thing for sure, if I think I can't, I never will!

I just wish I would have got started in bowling in my youth...

[rv driver]

In my short time bowling, I have talked to MANY, Many people, and ask a lot of questions. I know, many that have bowled for 20 years or more, good bowlers, that have NEVER reach that 220 level. Many have never bowled a 300 game or 800 series.

Sure its mental, and many things other things, but even the MENTAL can be related to your DNA, and ability to perform tasks! Some are just PLAN better at then others! Don't under estimate your 220 plus average, even if its on THS... I know dozens, of long term bowlers that have never reach that level on house oil!

I am going to enjoy watching Aslan as the years progress, I hope he can PROVE ME WRONG! I hope I prove myself Wrong,,, even though I have had Two 300's within 6 months of each other, and a 780 , and a dozen or so other 700 games, in my short time bowling, I know I am not Gifted.

I just have my moments!! LOL... LOL!!

And you know what,,, ICEMAN not being gifted in bowling is OK,,, I enjoy my GREAT MOEMNTS... I am not good enough to be a 220 or higher bowler, but that doesn't mean Iam going to quite trying!!!! ICE is a DREAMER!! (:) One thing for sure, if I think I can't, I never will!

I just wish I would have got started in bowling in my youth...
Oh yeah. I'm with you here for sure! Except for one thing: Maybe you DO have the Gift -- you just waited a long time to develop it. Your age may, at this point, be the determining factor of where your ceiling is going to be. You're slower,weaker, not as limber, etc. But if you've got the games you say you have -- without coaching, maybe you DO have the Gift.

[bowl1820]

There are two mindsets.

The "Fixed mindset" where you believe that peoples talents and abilities are simply fixed. That you have a certain amount and that’s that.


and then there's

The "Growth mindset" where you think of talents and abilities as things that you can develop, through hardwork, practice and coaching.

Having a growth mindset doesn't mean you believe that everyone has the same potential or that anyone can be Walter Ray. Just that Walter Ray didn't become Walter Ray without years of hardwork, practice and coaching.

Most of the great players have had a growth mindset. They pushed themselves, they looked at their game and fixed the weaknesses.

With the growth mindset you can reach ever higher levels of achievement, But with the fixed limit mindset you'll just plateau.

Because if you believe your abilities are limited and don't have the "gift". Then your right you'll never be a 220 average bowler, because you've drawn a line and decided not try and cross it.

[rv driver]

There are two mindsets.

The "Fixed mindset" where you believe that peoples talents and abilities are simply fixed. That you have a certain amount and that’s that.


and then there's

The "Growth mindset" where you think of talents and abilities as things that you can develop, through hardwork, practice and coaching.

Having a growth mindset doesn't mean you believe that everyone has the same potential or that anyone can be Walter Ray. Just that Walter Ray didn't become Walter Ray without years of hardwork, practice and coaching.

Most of the great players have had a growth mindset. They pushed themselves, they looked at their game and fixed the weaknesses.

With the growth mindset you can reach ever higher levels of achievement, But with the fixed limit mindset you'll just plateau.

Because if you believe your abilities are limited and don't have the "gift". Then your right you'll never be a 220 average bowler, because you've drawn a line and decided not try and cross it.
Very good point this. In a sense we are limited only by what we can imagine for ourselves.

[MICHAEL]

Very good point this. In a sense we are limited only by what we can imagine for ourselves.


You know rv driver, I hear that line a lot growing up,,, but it sounds GREAT, and to a degree ,,,, DEGREE, there is some truth to it.

You have also heard the saying: If you think you can't , YOU CAN"T! To a degree, its correct also.

But just thinking you CAN, then WORKING HARD TOWARD THAT GOAL, doesn't mean your going to get there in SPORTS. There are many other things that can prevent that from happening, including your genetics!

There are some goals that just require HARD WORK! Like a job, a family, a hobby, ect ect.. I prime example could be Thomas Edison, the inventor.
In his case it was HARD WORK, trial and error OVER ,,, and OVER,,, and OVER,,, until he got it right!

But millions of young men and women in this country with talent, and hard work, even coaching, never REACH THE GIFTED LEVEL!

Mind over matter does not always apply! WE, in my opinion,,, do need that Special DNA, that allows to fly with the eagles.

Example, say you bowling 1820, Do you have a 220 plus average on any of your leagues this last year? YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, and know bowling better then most of us on the site put together! I would include Rob in your category! I know he doesn't have that average also, with all his knowledge! Sure there is the physical limitations,, sore back,,, feet,,,, you name it, hey I have all that plus RA! LOL But I never use it as and excuse, I hunker down and Focus, I give my all, but fall short of that mark. I have posted many pictures of scores on this site, its so easy to make up crap, and have caught some, doing just that. Yet, I know guys that bowl that 220 and above that have never been coached, and many don't even practice, yet have THAT GIFT!


knowledge, practice, desire, and positive thoughts, don't guaranty a 220 and above average. To some bowling just COMES EASY, along with the high scores.

AGAIN,,, Coaching and practice ARE GOOD THINGS, but you better go to the Farmers Market and buy yourself 5 lbs of good bowling DNA, in order to reach that GIFTED LEVEL.

I am hopping that Aslan makes that goal,,, then I will BELIEVE that Coaching, hard work, and practice can get you to that 220 average for multiple leagues.

The MAIN THING IS TO HAVE FUN,,,, LOL,,, and I have WAY TOO MUCH bowling with my present average!! (:)

If heaven doesn't have bowling, then that would be a huge STRIKE against going there!! LOL

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/101ddc7f-6c42-4b10-91c0-ded756036abb_zpsd2546006.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/101ddc7f-6c42-4b10-91c0-ded756036abb_zpsd2546006.gif.html)

[bowl1820]

Example, say you bowling 1820, Do you have a 220 plus average on any of your leagues this last year?
No I don't,
Why? Because I don't put the effort into it.


You make the assumption that all the great bowlers have the "Gift", because they must have the "Gift" if they are great, It's circular reasoning and precludes the possibility that they became great through hard work, practice and coaching.

Yes hard work, practice and coaching doesn't guarantee greatness.

But knowing "guys that bowl that 220 and above that have never been coached, and many don't even practice" doesn't disprove that hard work, practice and coaching won't get you there. (Though a lot will say that it does prove just how easy the conditions are today).

[MICHAEL]

No I don't,
Why? Because I don't put the effort into it.

Really ??? You put a lot of time in here, and we ALL APPRECIATE IT!! Don't get me WRONG, but I disagree. Question, have you ever been at that level in your younger days? I also wonder if Rob has ever been at that level.


You make the assumption that all the great bowlers have the "Gift", because they must have the "Gift" if they are great, It's circular reasoning and precludes the possibility that they became great through hard work, practice and coaching.

It may, or may not be circular reasoning! It could be a Fact, (if were getting into WHAT MIGHT BE)

A Study was done in Poland back in 1938, where they looked at the gifted bowlers in the small town of Ekoj, where they studied the DNA of gifted bowlers, Using Polish logic, they found that the higher level bowlers, were not POLISH, but hybrids, and that their DNA did suggest huge advantages.

The report went on to say that, Good coaching, and practice DID NOT help the AVERAGE Polish bowlers, BUT DID HELP THE Hybrids, reach and even higher level in some cases

Their conclusions were, Bowing is a GIFT! You either have it, or you don't.

Interesting side note to that study was this: Bowlers that had less then a 220 average had a lot more FUN then those with. Conclusion was
based on Polish logic.


Yes hard work, practice and coaching doesn't guarantee greatness.

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!! LOL (:) I agree....


But knowing "guys that bowl that 220 and above that have never been coached, and many don't even practice" doesn't disprove that hard work, practice and coaching won't get you there. (Though a lot will say that it does prove just how easy the conditions are today).

YES,,,, but that's Selective Logic. Doesn't disprove either! You know I like Aslan in some strange demented way, but lets see if HE CAN get his average up to 220. I know he works hard at his game, and is getting coaching. If he does get to that ( what I call gifted average), I will
eat a piece of cow liver, and ride my bike out to CA, and kiss his feet!!

Your last statement is interesting, IF it is that easy, and I agree, why is it YOU, ROB, and MYSELF DON"T HAVE 220 averages.... ?

WE don't have the gift! (:) (( I KNOW YOU, Rob, and myself don't put in enough hard work, and in my case get the coaching. BECAUSE YOU AND ROB obviously have the knowledge! Only thing missing I assume would be HARD WORD!

What is HARD WORK,,,, since you and Rob have a LOTS OF KNOWLEDGE,,,, how much would you need to practice in order to reach what I think is that GIFTED LEVEL?

I wonder how many games Rob, and you do bowl a week?

I wonder in your prime,,, where either of you 220 bowlers....

conclusion:
For many I have talked to, you either have it or you don't,,,, many said it just CAME EASY to them! ( THE BOWLING GODS GIFT)!

THIS MY FRIENDS IS A PICTURE OF THE GIFTED BOWLER~~http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/munson_zps7fef3b83.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/munson_zps7fef3b83.jpg.html)

[rv driver]

You know rv driver, I hear that line a lot growing up,,, but it sounds GREAT, and to a degree ,,,, DEGREE, there is some truth to it.

You have also heard the saying: If you think you can't , YOU CAN"T! To a degree, its correct also.

But just thinking you CAN, then WORKING HARD TOWARD THAT GOAL, doesn't mean your going to get there in SPORTS. There are many other things that can prevent that from happening, including your genetics!

There are some goals that just require HARD WORK! Like a job, a family, a hobby, ect ect.. I prime example could be Thomas Edison, the inventor.
In his case it was HARD WORK, trial and error OVER ,,, and OVER,,, and OVER,,, until he got it right!

But millions of young men and women in this country with talent, and hard work, even coaching, never REACH THE GIFTED LEVEL!

Mind over matter does not always apply! WE, in my opinion,,, do need that Special DNA, that allows to fly with the eagles.

Example, say you bowling 1820, Do you have a 220 plus average on any of your leagues this last year? YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, and know bowling better then most of us on the site put together! I would include Rob in your category! I know he doesn't have that average also, with all his knowledge! Sure there is the physical limitations,, sore back,,, feet,,,, you name it, hey I have all that plus RA! LOL But I never use it as and excuse, I hunker down and Focus, I give my all, but fall short of that mark. I have posted many pictures of scores on this site, its so easy to make up crap, and have caught some, doing just that. Yet, I know guys that bowl that 220 and above that have never been coached, and many don't even practice, yet have THAT GIFT!


knowledge, practice, desire, and positive thoughts, don't guaranty a 220 and above average. To some bowling just COMES EASY, along with the high scores.

AGAIN,,, Coaching and practice ARE GOOD THINGS, but you better go to the Farmers Market and buy yourself 5 lbs of good bowling DNA, in order to reach that GIFTED LEVEL.

I am hopping that Aslan makes that goal,,, then I will BELIEVE that Coaching, hard work, and practice can get you to that 220 average for multiple leagues.

The MAIN THING IS TO HAVE FUN,,,, LOL,,, and I have WAY TOO MUCH bowling with my present average!! (:)

If heaven doesn't have bowling, then that would be a huge STRIKE against going there!! LOL

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/101ddc7f-6c42-4b10-91c0-ded756036abb_zpsd2546006.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/101ddc7f-6c42-4b10-91c0-ded756036abb_zpsd2546006.gif.html)
Well, of course physical ability has something to do with it. Innate DNA stuff (the way our bodies are individually constructed) has a lot to do with it too. Some people will tend to go farther, because they have particular attributes that contribute to good form/performance. But that doesn't mean that people not so endowed can't overcome attributes that are a hindrance. I feel your "220" is an arbitrary number. It doesn't really mean anything. 220 on a home THS =/= 220 on an unfamiliar sport shot. There's also a gift that has to do with mental focus, concentration, ability to "read" conditions, and make adjustments. Some people don't have that gift and have to overcome some things. What "the Gift" means to me is that some people just ... shine ... at what they do -- they "become one" with the game. But I wouldn't attempt to quantify that with a number.

[RobLV1]

I believe that I need to share a little of my history with you. I started bowling at the age of 37 when, while playing softball four nights each week, my main thought when I came up to bat was, "Gee, I hope I don't have to slide." You see, at the time I started bowling bowling, the physical problems that I have now had already started, with the exception of the arthritis in my neck. Since I stopped playing on the team that was sponsored by the company for whom I worked, they told me that they had an opening on the company bowling team, and asked if I was interested in learning to bowl. I joined the team, went to K-Mart and bought a bowling ball and a pair of shoes. This was in 1986, and I averaged 137 that year, but I quickly developed an interest in the game and started to work at it. I decided to take some lessons, and that summer I averaged 183 which was pretty good in the urethane era. I continued to bowl recreationally until the late 90's when I started bowling in a few local tournaments and joined a scratch league. I began taking lessons once again and improved my average to right around 200.

When I moved to Las Vegas in 2004, I started bowling in local NABI tournaments. While I never won one, in 2006 or 2007 I was the points leader with the most top 5 and top 10 finishes. I had begun to take lessons from Wendy Macpherson, and when the owners of the NABI bowling publication, "The Bowling Connection" found out that I was a writer, they asked me if I would contribute. I asked Wendy if she would like to co-author some articles where we could expand on the things that I was working on in my lessons, and she agreed. So began my career as a bowling writer. As a result of my interest sparked by those lessons and articles, I developed a keen interest in learning both the mechanics of the game, and trying to understand modern bowling balls. I attained my Level I Certification in 2005, my Bronze Certification in 2006, and my Silver Certification in 2007. I also began seriously doing research on modern bowling balls.

All the while from around 2000 when I still lived in California through the time when I moved to Las Vegas, I worked with a series of coaches who helped my game, though I never really put in the practice time required to really improve. In 2006, while participating in the discussion forum on the PBA website, I met a bowler who lived in California, who after many years of not bowling, said he was moving to Las Vegas and was interested in starting to bowl again. He asked if anyone would like to practice with him and I said that I'd be happy to. Imagine my surprise when we met to practice, and I saw one of the best releases that I had ever seen! I can only describe it as looking like a hot knife going through soft butter. It turns out that before stopping bowling for those years, he had been the PBA Western Regional Rookie of the Year, and also won the ABC Nationals All Events Title in 1992.

I saw such potential, that I began to help him to modernize his game (if you look at my website, www.Modern-Bowling.com, he is the bowler pictured in the red shirt in the montage that tops each page. I also suggested that he needed to learn about modern bowling balls, so I really redoubled my efforts to learn about them to help him to learn. A few years ago, he began to work at a bowling center, and worked his way up to the proshop where he learned to drill bowling balls. He now drills all of my bowling balls.

When I retired from full time work a couple of years ago, I decided to really start to work on my game as I would finally have the time to practice. My driller and I had become good friends, playing golf every Tuesday, and bowling in a recreational league every summer with my wife and another friend. Last summer, during the league (where he averaged 243), he said to me, "You know, you've helped me a whole lot, do you mind a few pointers?" I told him that I'd greatly appreciate it. It turns out that he was able to do something that no other coach had been able to do for the past 13 years; he fixed my feet!

So, Michael, to answer your question, no, I was never a 220 average bowler in my youth, because I was not a bowler in my youth. As I am currently averaging 205 in the one summer league that I take at all seriously, and 207 overall in competitive situations since the beginning of the year in several different bowling centers, I think I can say with confidence that I have a pretty good shot at reaching a 220+ average despite my age and physical limitations. Why? Because of three things: Desire, a massive amount of practice, and COACHING! Those of us who were not born with THE GIFT still have a chance to reach our goals with enough hard work and determination.

[Blacksox1]

Thanks RobLV1 for always having quality content in your posts.

[Amyers]

Thanks RobLV1 for always having quality content in your posts.

I agree I knew some of the story but not all of it great post.

I will also say one of the best bowlers I know is physically handicapped. He is the manager at my local center. He can walk but if you seen him shuffle around you would never believe he could bowl. On the lanes the man is smooth as silk. He started out as a league bowler in his early thirties and averaged about 140 his first year. He decided he wanted to get better started working with guy who owns part of the alley where I bowl who is a former PBA player. He bowled 100 games a week to develop his game he currently averages about 210-220 in our house which is notoriously low scoring.

At one time Ice I might of agreed with you but after seeing what this guy has done and a few other impared bowlers on my daughters youth leagues not anymore maybe that PBA level your right but a 220 average on THS no not anymore. These guys had all the chips stacked against them and still over came it. Anyone can do it with required perseverance, practice, and hard work. I think the real question is are we willing to make the sacrifices to get there.

[rv driver]

Rob, thanks for the story. It's nice to know more about you. And thanks for your quality posts!

[MICHAEL]

I agree I knew some of the story but not all of it great post.

I will also say one of the best bowlers I know is physically handicapped. He is the manager at my local center. He can walk but if you seen him shuffle around you would never believe he could bowl. On the lanes the man is smooth as silk. He started out as a league bowler in his early thirties and averaged about 140 his first year. He decided he wanted to get better started working with guy who owns part of the alley where I bowl who is a former PBA player. He bowled 100 games a week to develop his game he currently averages about 210-220 in our house which is notoriously low scoring.

At one time Ice I might of agreed with you but after seeing what this guy has done and a few other impared bowlers on my daughters youth leagues not anymore maybe that PBA level your right but a 220 average on THS no not anymore. These guys had all the chips stacked against them and still over came it. Anyone can do it with required perseverance, practice, and hard work. I think the real question is are we willing to make the sacrifices to get there.

MY POINT is THIS guy your talking about, HAS THE GIFT! He is a perfect example! It has NOTHING TO DO with physical appearance, eye sight, muscles... its a lot deeper then that. Being physically handicapped does not keep a person from being gifted in some sports!

I am physically handicapped, with a broken back, and neck, RA, Lupus, neuropathy in my feet!

But I don't let any of it get me down, in fact I stay away from Doctors as much as possible, and have since being diagnosed 10 years ago!

It was a slow process getting my health back but did it with nothing but, Real Food, GOOD Natrual Supplements, Did away with all forms of suger, have my own water purification system in my house,,, WELL I COULD GO ON, but I won't.

End result, EACH and EVERY year, I have got stronger and stronger, pain inflammation is a thing of the distant Past!

The body can do remarkable things if you give it what IT NEEDS!!

OK DONE WITH THAT HEALTH dissertation!!! LOL

ROB, and bowl1820, ASLAN especially, PROVE ME WRONG! I know many 220 average league bowlers who do it effortlessly! AS I SAID, don't practice, on have any coaching! THEY HAVE THE GIFT!

ON THE OTHER HAND YOU ROB, who I respect very much in regards to bowling knowledge, and you 2 bowl1820, don't have the GIFT!

FOR THAT REASON, its going to be VERY difficult and require a lot of practice! You both already have the knowledge, way beyond most of use out here in bowlingboard.com land!

CAN A NON GIFTED person make that pentacle,,,,,?????? Some do, and many don't that I know.

I hope that the four of use,,, Rob, Aslan, bowl1820, and Ice make that goal! I never,,, NEVER said it was impossible,,,, but I have in my short time of bowling notice that many just can't make that 220 level!

IS THAT 220 average a big deal?????

I think on even house oil, non professional bowlers who have reach that number or higher, on all their leagues, deserve a lot of praise!!!!! Its quit an accomplishment for the average Joe!!

[Aslan]

Where's all the praise for my "quality posts?" Geez.

[rv driver]

Where's all the praise for my "quality posts?" Geez.
We're storing them in our closets. But they're there, man!

[Blacksox1]

Where's all the praise for my "quality posts?" Geez.

In the closet? :rolleyes:

[Blacksox1]

lol rv driver, beat me to it. Props!

[Aslan]

wel, if you two would come out of the closet and give me some props…it'd be appreciated.

[Amyers]

wel, if you two would come out of the closet and give me some props…it'd be appreciated.

That's one closet I'm staying away from

[vdubtx]

All this talk of coming out of the closet and props has me worried as to where this thread is headed. LOL.

[classygranny]

Don't worry Vdubtx...It's just a GIFT. :)

[Aslan]

I forgot to ask Iceman…is it still a gift if they wear a wrist positioner?? What if the wrist positioner was an actual "gift"??

I'll leave the closet and wrist positions conversation alone.

[Hampe]

220 on a home THS =/= 220 on an unfamiliar sport shot.Hell, it doesn't even have to be a sport shot. One center's THS =/= another center's THS. And apart from just the pattern on the lane, a lot of factors are in play when talking about scoring potential of a bowling center. How well the lane is maintained, how well the oil machine is maintained, how well the backends are cleaned, even the age of the pins makes a difference. Setting some arbitrary number like 220 is a bit pointless, since 220 in one center is not the same as another. Does that mean nobody at the other center has the "gift"?

I've played in a bunch of centers where I'm sure I could average somewhere around 220 if I played a league there.....last year in the company league I played in, not ONE person averaged 220 (there hasn't been a 300 game in over 2 years in that center). And some of the guys here play in the German national league and can easily put up 220+ when they play in tournaments elsewhere. Do they have the "gift" or not?

I think we've pretty much reached a consensus that Iceman is wrong :). The "gift" he is talking about is basically just superior/eye hand coordination. Some people have natural ability, some don't (we've all met those people who just seem to be good at everything). BUT, I've still never heard of anyone picking up a bowling ball and averaging 220 in a few years just through natural talent alone. Iceman likes to talk about the big hitters in his area that "never practice" and "have never been coached", but I'm curious...how many of those guys "don't practice", but have been playing in 5 leagues a week for 20-30 years? If I remember correctly, Jason, Iceman's glorious example of "the gift" was also a pretty good youth bowler back in the day. How much coaching did he receive then? (I'd guess at least some). Just because somebody doesn't currently see a coach or practice, doesn't mean they never have.

Nobody around here that I know of has ever won a tournament without a lot of practice and some coaching at some point in their lives.

[rv driver]

I forgot to ask Iceman…is it still a gift if they wear a wrist positioner?? What if the wrist positioner was an actual "gift"??

I'll leave the closet and wrist positions conversation alone.
Some people are probably so blessed with The Gift that they don't even need a ball. The pins just sort of swoon in abject adoration as The Gifted One walks past.

[Hampe]

Some people are probably so blessed with The Gift that they don't even need a ball. The pins just sort of swoon in abject adoration as The Gifted One walks past.Hey! I think I've got that! Sometimes when it's my turn, the pins will just fall over by themselves after being put down and have to be reset. I must be "gifted" :)

[MICHAEL]

Hell, it doesn't even have to be a sport shot. One center's THS =/= another center's THS. And apart from just the pattern on the lane, a lot of factors are in play when talking about scoring potential of a bowling center. How well the lane is maintained, how well the oil machine is maintained, how well the backends are cleaned, even the age of the pins makes a difference. Setting some arbitrary number like 220 is a bit pointless, since 220 in one center is not the same as another. Does that mean nobody at the other center has the "gift"?

It's not arbitrary,,, GOD says so in the bible,,, 30:32! And God said, a 220 bowler and above will be my gifted ones!!


I've played in a bunch of centers where I'm sure I could average somewhere around 220 if I played a league there.....last year in the company league I played in, not ONE person averaged 220 (there hasn't been a 300 game in over 2 years in that center). And some of the guys here play in the German national league and can easily put up 220+ when they play in tournaments elsewhere. Do they have the "gift" or not?

Maybe you could,,,,, maybe you couldn't! LOL Maybe because there were NO GIFTED bowlers there. I bet 1000.00 bucks a gifted bowler like
JASON the Dude could figure them out, or my other friend Pat, (hall of famer, Henderson)! Could be just a bunch of non Gifted blowers.
Hey,,, most of us are!! maybe the ones you played GOOD AT were GOOD THAT day on THOSE particular lanes, with THAT particular oil on that particular humidity , and temperature???? A league lasts for many months... (:) A truly Gifted bowler ADJUSTS!! He can make Gold out of Iron!


I think we've pretty much reached a consensus that Iceman is wrong :). The "gift" he is talking about is basically just superior/eye hand coordination. Some people have natural ability, some don't (we've all met those people who just seem to be good at everything). BUT, I've still never heard of anyone picking up a bowling ball and averaging 220 in a few years just through natural talent alone.

I HAVE,,, here in the United States of America!!! I know off hand at least 1 manybe more that did just that... ( but he was gifted IMHA)!

Iceman likes to talk about the big hitters in his area that "never practice" and "have never been coached", but I'm curious...how many of those guys "don't practice", but have been playing in 5 leagues a week for 20-30 years? If I remember correctly, Jason, Iceman's glorious example of "the gift" was also a pretty good youth bowler back in the day. How much coaching did he receive then? (I'd guess at least some). Just because somebody doesn't currently see a coach or practice, doesn't mean they never have.

Jason, and maybe Pat Henderson, both strong 220 and up average bowlers, on THS, might have had some coaching in their early years! I will ask, but usually a high school coach in bowling, (if they did have one, was usually a English Teacher making some extra money on the side coaching a sport they knew nothing about LOL) I will ask both of them if THE GIFT was there from the START!


Nobody around here that I know of has ever won a tournament without a lot of practice and some coaching at some point in their lives.

I NEVER SAID that practice and coaching is a bad THING!! GEEEEEE..... do you read my posts??? But if you don't have the Gift, there is only so far you will ever go! On the contrary,,,,,, COACHING and Practice is always a good thing! I hope you make that 220 that's in the Bible while I am still alive! I know your working hard, and want to be the best you can be. Some people with the Gift, find out later then OTHERS,,,
YOU MIGHT HAVE it, and its just waiting to get out, but its not TIME YET!

[MICHAEL]

Lol....Iceman, the answer to your question is already in the post you qouted.....

"There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. "

And it's true....knowing the intricacies of HOW to do something is not the same as being able to do it yourself.

I think anybody that worked hard enough at it can get to 220+ average. Some people it will take much longer than others, maybe more time than they are able or willing to invest, but it should still be possible.


I agree SOME,,, SOME people with hard work CAN,,,, NOT MOST!

[MICHAEL]

I forgot to ask Iceman…is it still a gift if they wear a wrist positioner?? What if the wrist positioner was an actual "gift"??

I'll leave the closet and wrist positions conversation alone.

I had to look that one UP!! The answer is YES,,, you ARE allowed to wear a wrist positioner, as long as YOU KNOW which wrist to put it on!!
Part of THE GIFT is knowing which wrist to put it on, and how to dial in a Gifted setting!

[Aslan]

Some people are probably so blessed with The Gift that they don't even need a ball. The pins just sort of swoon in abject adoration as The Gifted One walks past.

I knocked down nearly every pin in the alley during an earthquake recently. No ball required. Truly a "gift".

I'm beginning to think the "gift" Iceman is referring to is the gift of living in Kansas City and playing in whatever tilted center he plays at. I'm actually glad I DON'T have that gift because:
1) You have to live in Missouri.
2) It's that much more of a rude awakening when you finally put your toe in the water of another center. I mean, I get frustrated when I throw a sub-500 series in a harder center...I can only imagine if I had an inflated 220 average and bowled a sub-500 series in another center. I'd feel like the emperor with no clothes.

[MICHAEL]

I knocked down nearly every pin in the alley during an earthquake recently. No ball required. Truly a "gift".

I'm beginning to think the "gift" Iceman is referring to is the gift of living in Kansas City and playing in whatever tilted center he plays at. I'm actually glad I DON'T have that gift because:
1) You have to live in Missouri.
2) It's that much more of a rude awakening when you finally put your toe in the water of another center. I mean, I get frustrated when I throw a sub-500 series in a harder center...I can only imagine if I had an inflated 220 average and bowled a sub-500 series in another center. I'd feel like the emperor with no clothes.

YOU MAY have THE GIFT, my friend, ( I hope ) form CA!!! Some times the DNA involved, has a time schedule that OPENS up when it time!
Yes Grasshopper, my young friend, I haven't given up on THE FACT that you might have THE GIFT! Time will tell.

I have played 4 different centers around here. My current one is a heck of a lot different then then AMF that was my home base! Mainly because it was the closet to my house!

The new one is Gladstone Brunswick lanes. Yes it is different, but you know I have posted some pretty good scores there, but its taking some getting use to. In my thread The Deadly Aim,,,, so far after pulling it out, I have averaged a 234,,, I posted my individual scores on that thread.
Geno2u on this site will verify those scores.

Am I gifted,,,, HELL NO,,, but every Old Dog has its DAYs! I will keep a running total of how my average runs using the Deadl Aim. I will on occasion use other balls!
But when I start with the Deadly-Aim, I will bowl the whole game WITH IT, as I HAVE done with that 234 average mentioned above. So far Aslan on those new lanes, I must say might be a step up from the AMF that you thought was so easy!! LOL (:)
Time will tell! That's one thing about AVERAGES,,,, it takes into account you GREAT GAMES and YOUR Crappy games!

Gene2u,,, will testify to the way that ball is working,,, LIKE I SAID ON the DEADLY AIM THREAD: Gene told me to leave
ALL MY OTHER BALLS AT home and just bring my spare ball, and the DEADLY AIM!! LOL But I am looking at summer as a time to experiment, with a lot with different balls, and playing different parts of the lane! I can't afford a coach!! I am retired!! (:)

[MICHAEL]

Is Coaching a GOOD positive thing in regards to being the BEST YOU CAN BE? YES!

Does practice help reach higher averages, Maybe, Sure, Probably, doesn't hurt, and CAN be of huge benefit, (if you practice smart).

Do all bowlers who are coached, and practice hard make that 220 and higher level? NO! But I think a good percentage can, and do!

Are there Gifted bowlers that, ( with OUT hard work, practice, and coaching make that pentacle?) YES, I know several!


THERE I HAVE SAID it, and I stand by the above statement! Is it TRUE? That's up to you to decide,,, just my Cool thoughts on the subject, Ice!! LOL

[RobLV1]

Michael: I know several "gifted" bowlers who average 220+ on a THS. Permit me to tell you about one of them. He stands all the way back on the approach and runs as fast he can to the foul line. His timing is so late that he actually drops the ball about three feet in front of the foul line. After releasing the ball, he cannot possibly post his shot, so he falls off dramatically to the right. The more he falls off, the better the rsult of his shot. Does he have "The Gift?" Definitely! The gift is doing the same thing over and over, exactly the same way, without any thought involved. Does he average 220+ on a house shot? You betcha! Does he bowl in tournaments on real patterns? No way! He'll be the first to tell you that he is a great house bowler, but as a real bowler, he sucks! Get over "The Gift." The Gift is nothing more than repitition on a pattern that will let you do most anything you want as long as you do it the same each time.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob, You are right on the money with repetition. There is no wrong way to bowl and as long as you can repeat what you do consistently you will find greater success.

[rv driver]

It's that ability to repeat within the context of changing conditions and unknown conditions that separates the men from the boys in the "Gift" department. That's why the pros are the pros. They know how to adapt such that they can continue to consistently do what they do on different surfaces.

[Aslan]

Does he average 220+ on a house shot? You betcha!

Phew…without this sentence…I'd think the post was about me.

[MICHAEL]

Michael: I know several "gifted" bowlers who average 220+ on a THS. Permit me to tell you about one of them. He stands all the way back on the approach and runs as fast he can to the foul line. His timing is so late that he actually drops the ball about three feet in front of the foul line. After releasing the ball, he cannot possibly post his shot, so he falls off dramatically to the right. The more he falls off, the better the rsult of his shot. Does he have "The Gift?" Definitely! The gift is doing the same thing over and over, exactly the same way, without any thought involved. Does he average 220+ on a house shot? You betcha! Does he bowl in tournaments on real patterns? No way! He'll be the first to tell you that he is a great house bowler, but as a real bowler, he sucks! Get over "The Gift." The Gift is nothing more than repitition on a pattern that will let you do most anything you want as long as you do it the same each time.

I had no idea bowling was just that simple??? MOST sports are not that way, it takes a gift to compete on high levels. YOU make it sound like
you Rob, bowl1820, and myself just can't be repetitive. He is more gifted then the 3 of us, and many out their on league night.

Well I guess Bowling is different then MOST sports. As I have said in regards to track and Filed.... there are many good runners, Milers, 1/2 milers, 1/4 milers, 100 yard dash runner, disks, and shot put throwers,,, many average to good at all the events, but the gifted ones are the record setters!

Sure most track and field participants work their buts off, I use to be one myself,,, had a GREAT COACH in high school and college. I worked my ask off running well beyond the scheduled practice times.

WAS I GIFTED,,, no,,, good enough to qualify for state in the High Hurdles, and the mile relay, but didn't win the big one, a GIFTED runner beat me, not one that worked HARDER THEN ME!

THERE ARE GIFTED PEOPLE in SPORTS that EVERYTHING COMES a Heck OF A LOT EASIER too! Do you deny that Rob?

Basketball, Football,,, you can work your butt off, and still be very average, if you don't have THE GIFT. NO amount of coaching, or hard work can make you play at the gifted level, unless you have it!

Rob, maybe bowling is not like most sports! Maybe everyone can bowl at a HIGH level, 220, 230, on house oil if they have a good coach, and train hard. If that's the case then maybe bowling is something different then most sports.



We all have LIMITS as to our capabilities! Hard work and Coaching does not guaranty high level in most sports!

Since all it takes is GOOD COACHING, and LOTS OF PRACTICE, bowling is a very different sport that anyone can bowl as long as they become repetitive in their delivery.

I am still not convinced that the better bowlers that I know around here, (just don't have the gift)!

PLEASE GET THIS STREIGHT! LOL

I am not knocking Coaching!

I do think that hard work, and practice can get you to the level your capable of!

Not all bowlers, in my opinion are capable of 220 average because of their blue print laid out at birth, when DNA is mixed to form the essence of who THEY ARE! Some are MUCH luckier then others, its THE GIFT!

Be it in Math, Science, English, you name it,,, some do have fantastic gifts, while others, who might WORK REAL HARD, are just average.

Its the human condition.... We are not created equal.

[MICHAEL]

It's that ability to repeat within the context of changing conditions and unknown conditions that separates the men from the boys in the "Gift" department. That's why the pros are the pros. They know how to adapt such that they can continue to consistently do what they do on different surfaces.

Yes, and the person that can do the above, is going to be a better bowler then most, BUT even that person has to be gifted, to reach the higher levels of bowling.

Knowledge is very important, but execution is paramount, and the Gifted do that MOST OF THE TIME, where as Rob, Bowl1820, and Iceman don't!

Has nothing to do with knowledge,,, as in my case, I am new to this great game! Or is it a sport?? Is horse shoes a sport, or game!

Regardless of what it takes to get that 220 or higher average, it a BLAST!!! That's all that matters to me!! Ice

[RobLV1]

Michael: It's really just a matter of defining the level of the "gift" that got all of this started. Does Pete Weber have a gift? Undoubtedly. Does Walter Ray Williams have a gift. Yes. The same can be said for Chris Barnes, Jason Belmonte, Sean Rash, and anyone else that competes at that level. Will coaching and hard work get a non-gifted bowler to that level? No. Will coaching and hard work get a non-gifted bowler to be able to average 220 on a house shot? I think so. Unfortunately, today a 220 average on a house shot really doesn't mean much to anyone other than those who are not willing to put in the effort to get there.

[MICHAEL]

Michael: It's really just a matter of defining the level of the "gift" that got all of this started.


http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/crazy-person_zps10f29b81.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/crazy-person_zps10f29b81.jpg.html)

I AGREE!

Does Pete Weber have a gift? Undoubtedly. Does Walter Ray Williams have a gift. Yes. The same can be said for Chris Barnes, Jason Belmonte, Sean Rash, and anyone else that competes at that level.

I AGREE!

Will coaching and hard work get a non-gifted bowler to that level? No.

I AGREE!

Will coaching and hard work get a non-gifted bowler to be able to average 220 on a house shot? I think so.

HUMMM,,,, here is where the gray area is! I know you are a treasure trove of knowledge along with bowl1820! Iceman is NOT... LOL! In YOUR case Rob, that easy 220 level as you put it, and being retired, bowling and coaching as much as you do, and the fact that you have never been at that 220 level even in your youth, makes me think, THERE IS ANOTHER ingredient NEEDED to be at that 220/230 level on even HOUSE OIL!
It goes beyond simply knowledge, and lots of repetitive practice. The Gift, might not be the best word for it, how about "Natural innate Abality."

Unfortunately, today a 220 average on a house shot really doesn't mean much to anyone other than those who are not willing to put in the effort to get there.

HUMMM,,, LOL,,, maybe to YOU it doesn't mean anything,,, but to ICEMAN it would mean a great deal. As easy as it supposedly is, how much hard work does it take to get to that level.

How many hours would YOU have to put in to get to that level , where you have never been yourself?


Check out another friend of mine, Pat Henderson, Kansas City MO. Go to USBC and look him up. I have subbed for him on a league a few times last winter. This guy knows bowling, never played in college, had a little coaching in his high school years, but has that 220 and higher level on all his leagues. HE HAS THE GIFT!

HE doesn't practice, other then the 3 or 4 leagues he plays on. HE is 60 years old, and even has health issues. Godzilla amounts of 300s and 800s!
did another 800 a couple weeks ago on a seniors league we bowl on together.

He is just one out of many I have questioned about HOW they bowl that 220 or higher level. One thing almost all of them have in common, I have talked to is, Natural Gift, comes easy!

Pat unlike the example you gave of the guy that did everything wrong and had that 220 average on house oil. Pat does it pretty much right, I have seen him use two different balls during league play on different lanes, use different hand positions, he knows how to play a lane, but more then that he has the Gift, or natural ability.

In conclusion: It's might be easier to have that 220 average now vs the old days, but its still not that easy, and sure SOME that put long hours in even without coaching can get to that level, ( YOU GIVING the example of the guy that did EVERYTHING WRONG, but had the 220 average), because he was repetitive , but even a repetitive bowler has to read the lanes and make many adjustments depending on WHAT lanes he might be on, and even the team he is bowling against!

I think we agree on most things related to THE GIFT, ( I know I don't have you knowledge in bowling, but I have competed on a high level in two other sports in college), One Thing I know for Sure about those two sports, HARD WORK, AND COACHING is a given, but the ones that excel are the Gifted ones! We are not all gifted.

And that 220 level in not the ultimate level by any means, but it is a level that is tough to reach, and many never get there. Again,,, how many hours would you have to put in, to reach that 220 or above on house oil? How many hours do you put in now, or do you bowl this summer?

Does every student you have had reach that 220 or higher level, if they put their time in? Can you honestly say that everyone you have coached reaches that level, if they put their time in?

I think it goes far beyond repetitive movement, you have to have the ability to read the lanes, and make many adjustments! Its not as simple as you make it bowling 220 or higher!

God knows I try.... LOL (:)

[rv driver]

What would put the cap on this argument would be to put these "220+ Gifted bowlers" all warehoused in KC, up against Belmonte, Rash, Williams, Bohn, Duke, Weber, Barnes in a PBA match on sport shots -- on TV. Then we'll see who has the "Gift."

[vdubtx]

What would put the cap on this argument would be to put these "220+ Gifted bowlers" all warehoused in KC, up against Belmonte, Rash, Williams, Bohn, Duke, Weber, Barnes in a PBA match on sport shots -- on TV. Then we'll see who has the "Gift."

Boom! /thread

Those KC "gifted" bowlers or any of us plebs, would not stand a chance.

[rv driver]

Boom! /thread

Those KC "gifted" bowlers or any of us plebs, would not stand a chance.
I think that's pretty much the acid test that would show which "control group" has had their balls drop.

[Aslan]

Michael: It's really just a matter of defining the level of the "gift" that got all of this started. Does Pete Weber have a gift? Undoubtedly. Does Walter Ray Williams have a gift. Yes. The same can be said for Chris Barnes, Jason Belmonte, Sean Rash, and anyone else that competes at that level.

But to be honest, they also play a LOT of Wii bowling to get that good. Not all of us have a Wii so we're at a disadvantage.

[MICHAEL]

But to be honest, they also play a LOT of Wii bowling to get that good. Not all of us have a Wii so we're at a disadvantage.

I THINK you on to something here Aslan!!!! The day I did my 300, 780 a last season, I did Wii bowling that afternoon until I bloodied my right hand.
Could it be that Wii owners have a huge advantage, Wii, Wii,,,, say the French!!

[MICHAEL]

What would put the cap on this argument would be to put these "220+ Gifted bowlers" all warehoused in KC, up against Belmonte, Rash, Williams, Bohn, Duke, Weber, Barnes in a PBA match on sport shots -- on TV. Then we'll see who has the "Gift."

they fall into the category of what's called: Super Gifted!

solid 220 average league house oil bowlers fall into the average gifted!

There are degrees of gifted!

[MICHAEL]

Boom! /thread

Those KC "gifted" bowlers or any of us plebs, would not stand a chance.

ON HOUSE OIL,,,, I would put Pat Henderson against any of them! House Oil as Rob says, is EASY!! Almost anyone can roll a 220 average on thoses conditions, any one but most on this site, with the exception of you vdubtx!

All you that have a 220 solid in all your THS oil leagues post your USBC number, and average.... lets see how EASY it is!? :rolleyes:

I will get Pats USBC number and post it!

[Mudpuppy]

ON HOUSE OIL,,,, I would put Pat Henderson against any of them! House Oil as Rob says, is EASY!! Almost anyone can roll a 220 average on thoses conditions, any one but most on this site, with the exception of you vdubtx!

All you that have a 220 solid in all your THS oil leagues post your USBC number, and average.... lets see how EASY it is!? :rolleyes:

I will get Pats USBC number and post it!

Iceman - have you ever rolled a 300 or more than 1 300 game? If so please post about it. We would like to hear the story.

[rv driver]

they fall into the category of what's called: Super Gifted!

solid 220 average league house oil bowlers fall into the average gifted!

There are degrees of gifted!
Wait a minute...!

Super gifted???

So... what are the categories, then?

"Kind-of" gifted?
"Sorta" gifted?
"Mostly" gifted?
"Not very" gifted?
"'bout half" gifted?

How can there be "the Gift" if there are degrees? Wouldn't it have to be "A Gift?"

And how are the degrees determined? What are the distinctions? Who makes the determination? Do these gifts come with a patch or a "Certificate of Giftedness?"

No, no, no, no. Now you're fudging. The pros are gifted, but they have also had the benefit of coaching, hard work, determination, and perseverance. That doesn't make them "more better" in the giftedness department. It means that they've decided to capitalize on their giftedness.

[classygranny]

I wish I were gifted...in the area of knowing what forum threads to read and which to ignore (:>

[rv driver]

I wish I were gifted...in the area of knowing what forum threads to read and which to ignore (:>
There is no secret. They're all good!

[vdubtx]

Iceman - have you ever rolled a 300 or more than 1 300 game? If so please post about it. We would like to hear the story.

TROLOLOLOL!!!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4590975/niggas-be-like-i-got-you-a-dollar-o.gif

[rv driver]

ICEMAN! here ya go, buddy! Read the link.

http://http://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877035/life-isnt-fair-the-people-who-practice-the-most-arent-the-most?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=voxdotcom&utm_content=monday

[MICHAEL]

I wish I were gifted...in the area of knowing what forum threads to read and which to ignore (:>

ITs probably YOUR AGE,,,, don't let it get you down,,, just go with the flow granny!! LOL Sarcasm can work both ways! :rolleyes:

You know you can't keep AWAY from this THREAD,,, it beckons you to go even deeper! You are a Truth seeker, like Iceman!

[MICHAEL]

TROLOLOLOL!!!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4590975/niggas-be-like-i-got-you-a-dollar-o.gif

YOU want to hear that old war story again about two 300 in 6 months this year.... and my 780 series with the last one,,, YOU WANT ME TO go over that again!!

Maybe when I have more time! Or about my 234 average WITH the Deadly Aim, so far on the Tuesday league with Gene2u?? Maybe I is gifted, and don't even know it??? LOL Sarcasm,,,, the root of all envy!!

[MICHAEL]

ICEMAN! here ya go, buddy! Read the link.

http://http://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877035/life-isnt-fair-the-people-who-practice-the-most-arent-the-most?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=voxdotcom&utm_content=monday

that link didn't work for Ice?

[rv driver]

that link didn't work for Ice?
lemme try again...

I think you'll like it!

[rv driver]

Here:

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877035/life-isnt-fair-the-people-who-practice-the-most-arent-the-most

[Blacksox1]

Here:

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877035/life-isnt-fair-the-people-who-practice-the-most-arent-the-most

What about "Perfect" practice for the talented and gifted?

[MICHAEL]

here:

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877035/life-isnt-fair-the-people-who-practice-the-most-arent-the-most


Need i say more!!!

[rv driver]

What about "Perfect" practice for the talented and gifted?
Yeah, it doesn't address that variable. I noticed that right off the bat. A lot of practice time and effort is wasted practicing mistakes. Music is also a highly-repetitive, muscle memory-rich endeavor -- like bowling. Of course people who are gifted don't rely on practice to do well -- they don't need to. People who do need to end up falling behind because they end up reinforcing bad things.

[MICHAEL]

Yeah, it doesn't address that variable. I noticed that right off the bat. A lot of practice time and effort is wasted practicing mistakes. Music is also a highly-repetitive, muscle memory-rich endeavor -- like bowling. Of course people who are gifted don't rely on practice to do well -- they don't need to. People who do need to end up falling behind because they end up reinforcing bad things.

I don't KNOW rv driver..... music doesn't chance while your playing it, like bowling! The Gift part of Bowling is, balance, Focus, the kinesiology of bone, muscle, nerve, reflex. degree of coordination, ,,,, so many things go into the gift, that are either THERE, or NOT? MOST people that I have talked to, have stayed around the same average for YEARS! Up a little, Down a little. Some tried coaching, which helped, but not a lot. Some said they practiced many games a week, just to give it a try,,, but only marginal improvement.

AGAIN, if HOUSE OIL is sooooooooo easy, (key word I keep hearing EASY) Then why don't several knowledgeable people on this website have that simple goal! I don't want to hear they don't practice enough.... LOL...how much would that be 100 games a week?

I swear to what ever god you believe in, its A GIFT,,,,, A HUGE GIFT,,,,, and many I know that do bowl that 220 or higher level, it Just Comes Easy!

THANKS RV DIRVER,,,, for that back up!! I knew Science Would Back me..... ;)

[Hampe]

Check out another friend of mine, Pat Henderson, Kansas City MO. Go to USBC and look him up. I have subbed for him on a league a few times last winter. This guy knows bowling, never played in college, had a little coaching in his high school years, but has that 220 and higher level on all his leagues. HE HAS THE GIFT!

HE doesn't practice, other then the 3 or 4 leagues he plays on. HE is 60 years old, and even has health issues. Godzilla amounts of 300s and 800s!
did another 800 a couple weeks ago on a seniors league we bowl on together.Lol. He started bowling in high school, and is now 60 years old.....So he's been bowling for over 40 years. How long has he been playing 3-4 leagues every week.....I'm guessing for quite some time (maybe even more when he was younger?). So he's been playing on average 3-4 times a week for over 40 years, but "never practices". Well....that must be some gift!

[Aslan]

Next time my daughter claims she can't memorize multiplication tables…I'll agree with her that only the autistic truly have the gift of mathematics…if she needs to practice and learn math…then she's only reinforcing futility.

Granted, the autistic can do complex multiplications in a matter of seconds but are unable to make toast, hold a conversation, or cross a street, or dress themselves,…but…ya can't have EVERY gift!!

This conversation reminds me of the people claiming school is stupid because Einstein was a dropout as was Thomas Edison and many of the people that built the first super computers. I mean, sure…there have been a handful of persons in history that have done great things without a formalized education…but there also have been billions of people that have lived lives of poverty and misery because they were illiterate and uneducated.

But i can see…that I must actually PROVE Iceman wrong…so I will make it my mission…a man without a GIFT…to practice and learn my way to the top of professional and amateur bowling!! Hopefully his impressive physique and health status will keep him alive long enough for me to prove him wrong…because this may take some "time".

[Aslan]

Lol. He started bowling in high school, and is now 60 years old.....So he's been bowling for over 40 years. How long has he been playing 3-4 leagues every week.....I'm guessing for quite some time (maybe even more when he was younger?). So he's been playing on average 3-4 times a week for over 40 years, but "never practices". Well....that must be some gift!

Sounds like a perfect candidate to challenge Walter Ray Williams for USBC Senior Masters next year! Come on ICE!! Convince him to prove his GIFT!!! If he's as good as you say…he's a shoe in!!

[MICHAEL]

LMAO!!!! Sounds like the title of a crappy book!! YOU know something Aslan,,,, I HOPE YOU prove me WRONG! I will jump on my Goldwing, make the journey form Kansas City Missouri, to Sand-de-A-go!!, and place a Crown made of something very special on your head! Maybe even bring a Diva for you to have, and own!

I will be WATCHING your scores, Not of the lady kind closely!! GOOD LUCK, and God speed!! ice:rolleyes:

[MICHAEL]

Yeah, it doesn't address that variable. I noticed that right off the bat. A lot of practice time and effort is wasted practicing mistakes. Music is also a highly-repetitive, muscle memory-rich endeavor -- like bowling. Of course people who are gifted don't rely on practice to do well -- they don't need to. People who do need to end up falling behind because they end up reinforcing bad things.

VERY GOOD POINT! Practice does not translate into IMPROVEMENT, if your reinforcing bad habits!! VERY GOOD POINT! Maybe I do need a coach for few weeks,,, shouldn't take that long to see, and make corrections??

I just don't want a coach to be like a Shrink,,,, ( like a good girl friend that I go 2, to cry on her shoulders,,,whenever I feel down in pin count)! I would rather take drugs!
Legal ones!

[MICHAEL]

Lol. He started bowling in high school, and is now 60 years old.....So he's been bowling for over 40 years. How long has he been playing 3-4 leagues every week.....I'm guessing for quite some time (maybe even more when he was younger?). So he's been playing on average 3-4 times a week for over 40 years, but "never practices". Well....that must be some gift!

He tells me the story of starting out at the age of 3 years old in the basement of his house. His dad set up a small miniature little make-shift bowling alley! I will get his USBC number, and post it. He had high scores way back, said it came easy to him, bowling that is

Funny his nick name at the alley is THE BEAST!,,,, he calls me ANIMAL! LOL He is not a big down and flip bowler,,, he gets his HIGH AVERAGE at 60, throwing a Walter Ray type of ball, delivery.

I think your pointing out that 3 or 4 leagues a week is practice?? Well I do that, but I don't bowl at the level he's at! Maybe I do have a few bad habits that I need to have pointed out as mentioned a few comments back...... that was a VERY GOOD POINT! If I had the GIFT, maybe it would show itself, with a few coaching lessons?? HUMMMMMMMM.....

[MICHAEL]

Lol. He started bowling in high school, and is now 60 years old.....So he's been bowling for over 40 years. How long has he been playing 3-4 leagues every week.....I'm guessing for quite some time (maybe even more when he was younger?). So he's been playing on average 3-4 times a week for over 40 years, but "never practices". Well....that must be some gift!http://www.bowl.com/findamember/



Go to bowling awards.com and check this Beast out! Patrick Henderson ID: 1334-995,,,, then you will know why around here we just call him:


THE BEAST


ON HOUSE OIL, I would put him up against any Pro Bowler,,, at even odds! He not only has the GIFT, but KNOWLDEGE to go with it!

He offered to give me lesions! I think I might just take him up on that offer! I like his style,,, its a lot like Norm Duke, or Walter Ray.

[Hampe]

Hmm....not quite sure you understood my point. He's been playing 4 times a week for over 40 years......in what way does that imply he has some kind of natural gift? If I could play in 4 leagues a week, I wouldn't have to practice either! I wouldn't have time to :).

Im not doubting he's talented, that's obvious (the number is 1335-995 btw), he's probably better than I'll ever be (although if I were still single, I probably wouldn't feel that way :D). I still wouldn't take him vs. a pro on house oil though. Any pattern Pat can avg 230-240 one of the top pro's will average 260. But he would definitely at least have a chance, that's for sure......more than I'd say for most of us here :) (but not because he has some natural gift that we don't have....it's because he's already bowled more in his lifetime than most of us ever will).

[MICHAEL]

Hmm....not quite sure you understood my point. He's been playing 4 times a week for over 40 years......in what way does that imply he has some kind of natural gift? If I could play in 4 leagues a week, I wouldn't have to practice either! I wouldn't have time to :).

Im not doubting he's talented, that's obvious (the number is 1335-995 btw), he's probably better than I'll ever be (although if I were still single, I probably wouldn't feel that way :D). I still wouldn't take him vs. a pro on house oil though. Any pattern Pat can avg 230-240 one of the top pro's will average 260. But he would definitely at least have a chance, that's for sure......more than I'd say for most of us here :) (but not because he has some natural gift that we don't have....it's because he's already bowled more in his lifetime than most of us ever will).



grrrrrrrrr..... why,,, WHY is it so hard in BOWLING TO ADMIT that many good bowlers are GIFTED! LIKE everything else in life? You don't get great scores like Pat Henderson, unless your GIFTED! I will go to my grave, standing by this TRUTH!! LOL

Is practice good,,, YES,,, but it will only get YOU to the level your capable of! I firmly believe we all have capacities and limits!

Is Coaching good,,, YES,,, but it better be a GOOD COACH, and you better be coachable!

I don't want to hear (if I wasn't married,,, LOL,,, excuses), prove me wrong along with Aslan! I have seen you bowl and you do seems to have a great delivery? Mechanics look good,,,, maybe your average is where YOUR GIFT allows you to be??

Don't get upset,,,, PROVE ME WRONG! (:) I hope you and Aslan do prove to me that coaching and lots of practice can get you to that 220 or higher level.

[rv driver]

I don't KNOW rv driver..... music doesn't chance while your playing it, like bowling! The Gift part of Bowling is, balance, Focus, the kinesiology of bone, muscle, nerve, reflex. degree of coordination, ,,,, so many things go into the gift, that are either THERE, or NOT? MOST people that I have talked to, have stayed around the same average for YEARS! Up a little, Down a little. Some tried coaching, which helped, but not a lot. Some said they practiced many games a week, just to give it a try,,, but only marginal improvement.

AGAIN, if HOUSE OIL is sooooooooo easy, (key word I keep hearing EASY) Then why don't several knowledgeable people on this website have that simple goal! I don't want to hear they don't practice enough.... LOL...how much would that be 100 games a week?

I swear to what ever god you believe in, its A GIFT,,,,, A HUGE GIFT,,,,, and many I know that do bowl that 220 or higher level, it Just Comes Easy!

THANKS RV DIRVER,,,, for that back up!! I knew Science Would Back me..... ;)
Playing an instrument is the same -- except that we're dealing with fine motor skills rather than more gross motor skills. Music is just as "chancy" because it just. keeps. going. No stops. The framework is very, very fluid. Bowling's a little different in that regard, but just as chancy in its own way. But I'll grant you that some people have a natural gift that others just don't have.

[rv driver]

[/COLOR]

grrrrrrrrr..... why,,, WHY is it so hard in BOWLING TO ADMIT that many good bowlers are GIFTED! LIKE everything else in life? You don't get great scores like Pat Henderson, unless your GIFTED! I will go to my grave, standing by this TRUTH!! LOL

Is practice good,,, YES,,, but it will only get YOU to the level your capable of! I firmly believe we all have capacities and limits!

Is Coaching good,,, YES,,, but it better be a GOOD COACH, and you better be coachable!

I don't want to hear (if I wasn't married,,, LOL,,, excuses), prove me wrong along with Aslan! I have seen you bowl and you do seems to have a great delivery? Mechanics look good,,,, maybe your average is where YOUR GIFT allows you to be??

Don't get upset,,,, PROVE ME WRONG! (:) I hope you and Aslan do prove to me that coaching and lots of practice can get you to that 220 or higher level.
I think we're conflating two issues here, Iceman. One issue deals with natural ability. No one's denying that some (perhaps many) bowlers have that ability. The other issue deals with the place of knowledge and practice in the arena of improvement. These are two separate issues. Neither of them depend upon a rather arbitrary quantification (220+).

Even great bowlers, though need to develop their gift in order to reach their potential. WRW may be gifted. But he wouldn't be on top of the bowling world without having developed that gift. You see, this "220+" is a glass ceiling of sorts. When I was bowling seriously back in the day, a person had to reach and maintain a sanctioned 210 average to be considered for the PBA. Why is the "number" now 220+? Because the game has changed. One day, most people, due to equipment, may be able to attain that number. so, "220" doesn't really mean anything.

Mozart wrote his first opera at age 11. Mozart was highly gifted. But he didn't just "write an opera." He was trained, or coached, from a very early age. he wrote his first concerto at age 5. he couldn't have done that without musical training -- regardless of how gifted he was. Mozart was also highly prolific for someone who only lived 35 years. He wrote over 600 works during that short span. Think how many he may have composed had he had access to composition software, virtual musicians, etc.?

Sure, someone who attains a 220 average is gifted. But that's not really the issue. The issue is, if the person is gifted and develops that gift, the average should be higher than that.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Okay, there's been a couple of threads now belaboring the "Gift", Talent vs Skill, Is greatness born or made argument. (an this one has ran on too long IMO.)

What's the point?

If everyone here said "I agree! You need the gift to be great " What then?

Are you or we to use saying we don't have the "Gift" as a way to make are ourselves feel better or as a excuse, for not reaching some arbitrary level of greatness (ie: a 220 average, I guess that bowler with a 219 average is SOL.)?

Or as some excuse for why we don't need to try and improve?

Like with the "Fixed Mindset" mentioned earlier by bowl (where he talked about the persons thought process, not whether they were born with innate talents). worrying about whether you or someone else has the "gift" is ultimately going to be limiting.

[Aslan]

So I'm taking that as a "no" in regards to the USBC Senior Masters in 2015???

Dang. Seemed like a shoe in. : (

[rv driver]

So I'm taking that as a "no" in regards to the USBC Senior Masters in 2015???

Dang. Seemed like a shoe in. : (
The best-laid plans of mice and men...

[MICHAEL]

Okay, there's been a couple of threads now belaboring the "Gift", Talent vs Skill, Is greatness born or made argument. (an this one has ran on too long IMO.)

Gift, talent skill are all the same animal.

What's the point?

What's your POINT???


If everyone here said "I agree! You need the gift to be great " What then?


ICEMAN would be happy!! Feel good,,, almost have that GIFTED feeling!


Are you or we to use saying we don't have the "Gift" as a way to make are ourselves feel better or as a excuse, for not reaching some arbitrary level of greatness (ie: a 220 average, I guess that bowler with a 219 average is SOL.)?


NO,,, to your first question, it just a reality check. I have seen many try to make that 220 or above level, 219's are a dime a dozen! A 219, is like a 299 game, almost gifted but not!


Or as some excuse for why we don't need to try and improve?

NEVER GIVE up is my motto! I am not gifted, but that doesn't mean I don't live my life in pursuit of excellence!


Like with the "Fixed Mindset" mentioned earlier by bowl (where he talked about the persons thought process, not whether they were born with innate talents). worrying about whether you or someone else has the "gift" is ultimately going to be limiting.


You can think YOU CAN, on a lot of things in life, and still fail! I am not saying give up,,, Iceman don't have the gift. What I am saying is that there are MANY people I know that have that 220 average, that work at it that hard! Would they be even better with coaching, and practice?

I know a guy that I played golf with that was almost a scratch golfer. He had many bad habits, according to correct form and follow through.

Long Story SHORT,,, he went to the local pro took lesions, practiced, and his game went to heck!! OK,,, this might be and extreme example of Coaching and practice not improving ones game, but here is my opinion:

If its working, Don't get it fixed!

The 27 year old kid that almost Won on TV a few weeks ago collegiate All American bowled in tennis shoes, and put his thumb down to the first joint...
beat some of the best pros out there, and wound up second!!

I JUST WISH I HAD THAT FRICKEN GIFT.... OK,,,, I am DONE!! OVER,,,, FINISHED!!! (:)

Practice is a good thing, if done correctly

Coaching can be a good thing, IF YOU HAVE A GOOD coach!

[rv driver]

Would they be even better with coaching, and practice?
I maintain that they would be, depending if the coaching was sound and the practice worthwhile.

[MICHAEL]

The 100 reply

THE END

MY Gift to YOU

LOL

[GeoLes]

I believe it has been proven that with 10000 hours of practice on any subject you can master the art.

Unless you are practicing the same bad habit 10,000 hours...

Just to put it in perspective. You see it in sports like golf and tennis. Better practice is more valuable than more practice.

[Shaneshu87]

You can think YOU CAN, on a lot of things in life, and still fail! I am not saying give up,,, Iceman don't have the gift. What I am saying is that there are MANY people I know that have that 220 average, that work at it that hard! Would they be even better with coaching, and practice?



honestly if they already have a 220 average they probably already have had coaching, or practice often. if they don't i wouldn't call it gifted without seeing how they bowl, i watch 10 year old kids to 90 year old men/women play the same exact same line, straight up the 2nd arrow, and they can manage a 200+ avg with little to no effort, some of the older folks have bowling balls older than me! to me a gifted bowler is someone who puts in the TIME to practice and become better, the very first season i bowled i set a 180 avg having never picked up a ball, some called me gifted, but all i cared about was the fact that i could get wasted drunk and still bowl a 600 series, now that things in my life have changed, sobering up for one :), i have put in the time to practice and increased my avg to 231 on a THS. i probably bowl 40 practice games a week, thank god for $5 unlimited practice cards haha!