USBC Contact (That will Listen!!!)

[Iceman]

I just got my first taste of our USBC in action at an official tournament - how tainted the shot was, it was a THS and they invited the pro's. I saw 4 of them there cleaning house in brackets. They put them in with us in bracket slots and 2 of them got in HDCP brackets along with scratch. I shot 769 - put in $90 in brackets and got through half my brackets, but lost to a Pro - he goes 289, shoots 825 series.

The shot was so easy, it was all about carry. This was not bowling, it was a carry slaughter - either you did or you didn't. I saw so many people playing 6 to 18 and getting to the pocket. And the USBC is proud of all the 700 and 800's shot, after 2 weekends, already 4 800's, 2 were lefty (but they always shoot good) atleast 1 was not a pro. And the best thing about this all, get up Monday morning, read the newspaper and nothing about any bowling. Why? Everyone does it. Just to state it, I'm not taking anything away from the pro's; they are great bowlers - but put them in their league not in ours. We can't go bowl in their tournaments because we know better, they bowl in ours cause they know they can win money.

I would like to know if anyone knows anyone at the USBC that will listen or what can be done - maybe start a petition to make them take a stand on invitational events. Make it a shot where you have to bowl, not shoot a 247 and look around to see which 12 people beat you.

Sorry, just a unexpected tournament :mad: - I shot good, still lost money. Losing the money is not the issue, the issue is losing the money to a pro. Match pro's against pro and everyone else against everyone else. I don't see college players playing football or baseball against the NFL or Major League teams, so why in bowling. :confused:

[bowl1820]

What tournament was this? and which pros?

[The KingPin]

I just got my first taste of our USBC in action at an official tournament - how tainted the shot was, it was a THS and they invited the pro's. I saw 4 of them there cleaning house in brackets. They put them in with us in bracket slots and 2 of them got in HDCP brackets along with scratch. I shot 769 - put in $90 in brackets and got through half my brackets, but lost to a Pro - he goes 289, shoots 825 series.

The shot was so easy, it was all about carry. This was not bowling, it was a carry slaughter - either you did or you didn't. I saw so many people playing 6 to 18 and getting to the pocket. And the USBC is proud of all the 700 and 800's shot, after 2 weekends, already 4 800's, 2 were lefty (but they always shoot good) atleast 1 was not a pro. And the best thing about this all, get up Monday morning, read the newspaper and nothing about any bowling. Why? Everyone does it. Just to state it, I'm not taking anything away from the pro's; they are great bowlers - but put them in their league not in ours. We can't go bowl in their tournaments because we know better, they bowl in ours cause they know they can win money.

I would like to know if anyone knows anyone at the USBC that will listen or what can be done - maybe start a petition to make them take a stand on invitational events. Make it a shot where you have to bowl, not shoot a 247 and look around to see which 12 people beat you.

Sorry, just a unexpected tournament :mad: - I shot good, still lost money. Losing the money is not the issue, the issue is losing the money to a pro. Match pro's against pro and everyone else against everyone else. I don't see college players playing football or baseball against the NFL or Major League teams, so why in bowling. :confused:


Wow sorry to here that. Any ideas how to make the tournaments better?

[onefrombills]

There is nothing that can or will happened..... USBC will not do anything because there was nothing wrong here. Just because someone has a PBA card Does not make them any different than you and me. They still pay there USBC dues just like us. It is sad that the HOUSE you bowled at put out a very soft shot and the better players weather that had a card or not whacked them. You should be upset with the center that held this tournament and not with USBC because they didn't do anything wrong.

[The KingPin]

There is nothing that can or will happened..... USBC will not do anything because there was nothing wrong here. Just because someone has a PBA card Does not make them any different than you and me. They still pay there USBC dues just like us. It is sad that the HOUSE you bowled at put out a very soft shot and the better players weather that had a card or not whacked them. You should be upset with the center that held this tournament and not with USBC because they didn't do anything wrong.


Hmm I understand now. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

[Iceman]

There is nothing that can or will happened..... USBC will not do anything because there was nothing wrong here. Just because someone has a PBA card Does not make them any different than you and me. They still pay there USBC dues just like us. It is sad that the HOUSE you bowled at put out a very soft shot and the better players weather that had a card or not whacked them. You should be upset with the center that held this tournament and not with USBC because they didn't do anything wrong.

Define having a PBA card? I understand what it is, and what's it's for but we all know Brian Himmler, who is from Hamilton, Ohio. It's just seems like he took advantage of it, he's a great bowler, deadly accurate - no doubt. I've met him once before, but I just don't think it's a fair hand shake. Everyone should have a chance in brackets without having to bowl their best series ever to win.

The only thing I think is wrong is they let Pro's in "our" non-pro tourneys. We can't go bowl in their tourneys ( Not like we would want to either). Maybe I'm missing the point there, but I did voice my concerns to the tourney director and he simply said the shot is there for everyone, USBC decided the shot. I just wished I would have known, I could have saved in brackets - it's just doesn't seem right.

What would be the difference in a home run derby tournament, and having Pujols or Junior come play in it? How fair would that be? They do that for a living?????

The USBC has changed a lot over the years, we can all see it. Dues go up, less and even less awards are given out - WHY? Because everyone is doing it, not just once a year, but a few hundred a year. I remember reading an article about the award ratio to the number of bowlers, they need to compare apples to apples. They were comparing awards given to the total number of bowlers vs games bowled. That's like saying the amount of insurance saved each year is $10 per person - totalling the number of people in the united states. What about the ones that don't buy or even have insurance? They don't count there but they are included in the stats (Marketing scheme). It's the same for a family of 4 that goes bowling 1 time a year. They are all included in the statistics.

The worst thing about our City tourney, you can get in $10 scratch Masters, they take top 25. Honestly, competing against them is out of my league, I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not that accurate and still have a lot to learn aboiut the game, but why should they come in, take our spots and not let us get the experience needed to advance our games? I'm just so aggravated with entire USBC tourney decisions, it's all about money. They couldn't get the bid for the same house, so they combined women and men on same week-end to get the bid accepted.

That's what I don't understand about it all. :confused: But I didn't think anyone would even listen to the concern at USBC, I'm sure this is the same crap that has been going on for years. Once they figure out a oil pattern to pick up spares, everyone would be 200 avg. ;) Ok - Enough Venting - Thanks for giving a place to type it out.

[ThongPrincess]

If this was a City Tournament, then the issue is with the local association, not Nationals. My recommendation is to get involved as a director in the association. I would also recommend you attend the annual open meeting and bring friends who feel the same way as you do.

A suggestion is to not keep the local pros out of the tournament, but use divisions and have the top division be set so that it really only includes the elite bowlers. I doubt a City or State Tournament can exclude a USBC dues paying member from participation because they also hold a PBA Card.

[bowl1820]

"It's just seems like he took advantage of it" How doe's one take advantage of being in the PBA ?

I agree with onefrombills "Just because someone has a PBA card Does not make them any different than you and me." They pay their USBC dues just like us and bowl in the same leagues as we do.

I know it will be said they do it for a"living" meaning that they have a lot more experience from going around to different tournaments.

But how would that differ from the 230 ave amateur that bowls several leagues and runs around to all the amateur tournaments. Other than the fact that one has PBA card and the other don't.

as for "We can't go bowl in their tourneys" actually you can as a Non-Member. you fill out the form pays your money your in. Also Some tournaments have sweepers before the PBA tournament and you can win a entry into the main event.

And for "Everyone should have a chance in brackets without having to bowl their best series ever to win."

Brackets, Tournaments, winning a night at league, I think you should have to bowl your best to win.
I've seen too many bowlers who think they should just be able to phone in their average and win.

I don't mind bowling against PBA guys,I try harder and it makes me bowl better and that makes you a better bowler all around.

[kakcpa]

The USBC Detroit Masters was held this weekend. 7 games of qualifying, then cut to 32 for double elimination match play. Over the past 3 years, they've used sport and pbax conditions. This year, they went to a 45' walled up condition. The cut, at 32 was about a 230 average. Top spot averaged 257. This tournament brings out the best of Detroit. Former pros, such as Harry Sullins, Paul Koehler, Kurt Pilon, etc bowl in it. Koehler, his first 3 games put up a 846 with a 299 and 300. In the match play yesterday, someone had a 865, and there were 6 other 800s. In the Chameleon, last year, the cut was about a 195 average, and the high qualifier was about 218 avg. Why they changed to this is beyond me, especially for the most prestegious local tournament there is in my area.

This is their press release...the tournament continues this Sat.

BILL BRUCE LEADS THE WAY IN QUALIFYING IN THE MDUSBC MASTERS

The Metro Detroit USBC Association Masters tournament qualifying and first rounds of match play wrapped up at Sterling Lanes in Sterling Heights Sunday, Jan. 18.

Bill Bruce of Howell was the top qualifier with a seven-game total of 1,801 on games of 279, 280, 235, 279, 258, 243 and 227. Once in match play he fell to the32nd seeded player Michael Gaddy of Sterling Heights 640-582 in the three-game match to fall into the loser’s bracket in the double elimination format. Once in the loser’s bracket he beat Christopher Nielson of Livonia 710-583, Travis Franz of Waterford Township 704-627, Matthew Randall of Allen Park 668-634 before falling to Jeffery Hicks of Allen Park 617-612.

Others still alive in the competition include Paul Koehler of Roseville, Ernest Segura Jr. of Taylor, Terence Haines II of Whitmore Lake and Kurt Pilon of Warren with no losses in the winner’s bracket.

Koehler qualified fourth with 1,763 and won matches against Kevin Trumbull of Romulus 685-674, Jerome Jaracz of Clinton Township 767-679 and Jeffery Hicks of Allen Park 696-658 to advance to next Saturday’s finals.

Segura qualified 10th with 1,698 and beat Chris Kliczinski of Pinckney 747-589, Travis Franz 728-702 and Abed Daher of Brownstown 698-603 to move on.

Haines qualified 25th with 1,637. He defeated Jason Neiman of Warren 750-736, Terence Dockery of Fraser 779-705 and Michael Gaddy 665-591 to remain undefeated.

Pilon qualified 30th with 1,615. In match play he remained undefeated with wins over David Kelley of Shelby Township 804-654,,Matthew Randall 675-671 and William Daniels of St. Clair Shores to remain unbeaten.

Those remaining in the loser’s bracket are Michael Norris Jr. of Livonia, Craig Nidiffer of Trenton, Christopher Sand of St. Clair Shores and Jeffery Hicks.

The 126-player field averaged 216.3, with the top 32 finalists averaging 239.9.

In the qualifying rounds there were six 800 series and four 300 games. The 800 series were recorded by Paul Koehler of Roseville (846), Steve Mrakitsch of Howell (833), Craig Nidiffer of Trenton (816), Abed Daher of Brownstown (810), Jay Lang of Sterling Heights (802) and David Kelley of Shelby Township (801). Perfect 300 games were bowled by Koehler, Jerome Jaracz of Clinton Township, Matthew Randall of Allen Park and Christopher Nielson of Livonia.

In the first rounds of match play William Daniels of St. Clair Shores rolled 864 as the top three game match play set. Other 800 series were bowled by Kurt Pilon of Warren (804), Robert Chamberlain Jr. of Holly (803) and Jaracz (803). Perfect 300 games were bowled by Daniels, Pilon, Chamberlain and Jay Lang.

The final rounds of match play begin at 9 a.m. on Saturday, Jan. 24 at Sterling Lanes.

For a complete listing of entrants visit http://www.mdusbc.com under tournaments and MDUSBC Masters. Match play results are updated on the website after each day of competition. The graph of the lane pattern is also available on the website.

Sterling Lanes is located at 33200 Schoenherr Rd. in Sterling Heights, telephone (586) 979-5200.

Sponsors of the MDUSBC Masters are Turbo 2-N-1 Grips, Red Robin Restaurants of Michigan and Ansara's Big Boy Restaurants.

The MDUSBC Masters Tournament is an USBC certified event operated by the Metro Detroit USBC Association, the largest local association of the United States Bowling Congress with over 70,000 adult and youth members.

[Iceman]

"It's just seems like he took advantage of it" How doe's one take advantage of being in the PBA ?

I agree with onefrombills "Just because someone has a PBA card Does not make them any different than you and me." They pay their USBC dues just like us and bowl in the same leagues as we do. I'm talking about the players on the pro tour, not just PBA card holders that come bowl in these tournaments

I know it will be said they do it for a"living" meaning that they have a lot more experience from going around to different tournaments.



I think your missing my point - I'm not angry with a PBA card member holder, I've ran into a few that should not have had one, but there are many that should. The pro's that bowl on tour are deadly accurate and very good - why should they come into a non-pro tournament and bowl against us? This is not their league and they know it - that is taking advantage in my opinion.

Again, I'm not taking anything away from any pro or even PBA card holder, but just like in IT, there are IT ceritifcation paper holders, and IT Certified engineers. It's a tainted process there too, some are book smart and some couldn't setup a network without a step by step drawing from someone else. I face this everyday with my company - and I don't like the process there either.

On the flip side, I agree, bowling against them does make you better - but we are all entry levels - even with the tainted 230 house average, this is not the same house patterns at every place. I avg 210 at my house, and shot 769 so this was over my average - I rolled the ball well but even that will not get me in the Masters tournament (qualifying in 9 game set - I still have Team event next weekend). They take the top 32, and thus far 2089 is the cut - so 230 average will get you close. On a wall shot, it's all about carry. It doesn't focus on accuracy or spares. I am trying to figure a way or suggestion to make this worth while to allow non-pro's to qualify for the masters and then bowl against the pros. I would love to qualify for a tournament where I bowled great, then match up against the pro's. Trying to qualify competing with the pro's is a little extreme.

It feels like trying to get that first job with no experience - how do you get experience if you can't qualiy to get the experience????

[Iceman]

Here's the response from our Local USBC Organization regarding the City Tournament:

First off to your question about pro's. By rule we have to allow any member of the Gr. Cincinnati USBC BA whether a pro or amateur to participate in the City Championship.

As far as lane conditions, we had made the condition tougher over the last few years. The result was we lost entries. We did not attempt to make the condition easy this year, however, we did intend to loosen it up from what we had used over the past few years.

I understand that some bowlers get upset if the condition is too easy, but for every complaint I get about that, I get an equal number of complaints when the shot is too demanding. There is no lane condition we can put out that will make everyone happy.

As far as making more divisions. I would love to have about 5 divisions and make every one of them scratch. However, with the limited number of teams that bowl now if you pair down the divisions even more, the prize money would be so small that noone would participate.

More bowlers equals the possibility of more divisions. That is the constant battle that we face. I thank you for your comments.

[Iceman]

Here's the response from our Local USBC Organization regarding the City Tournament:

First off to your question about pro's. By rule we have to allow any member of the Gr. Cincinnati USBC BA whether a pro or amateur to participate in the City Championship.

As far as lane conditions, we had made the condition tougher over the last few years. The result was we lost entries. We did not attempt to make the condition easy this year, however, we did intend to loosen it up from what we had used over the past few years.

I understand that some bowlers get upset if the condition is too easy, but for every complaint I get about that, I get an equal number of complaints when the shot is too demanding. There is no lane condition we can put out that will make everyone happy.

As far as making more divisions. I would love to have about 5 divisions and make every one of them scratch. However, with the limited number of teams that bowl now if you pair down the divisions even more, the prize money would be so small that noone would participate.

More bowlers equals the possibility of more divisions. That is the constant battle that we face. I thank you for your comments.

When people complain about the tougher shots, these are the ones that think they are good because of the walled up house conditions. I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to get better on any shot and shoot 190's to win a game. Everyone wants to shoot 269's or better to win. I would rather bowl a 550 and get through tourney rounds and feel like I "bowled" my best with accuracy and spare shooting. Everyone can hit the pocket - not everyone can spare. Isn't this what bowling is about, spare shooting? 9 strikes and a missed spare = a bad game right?

[onefrombills]

Im not going to repost to all the posts after mine but here is the easier said but done answer


WE SHOULD ALL BOWL ON A USBC SPORT OR PBA EXPERIENCE SHOT

This is where you as a bowler call or talk to your LOCAL USBC office because speaking as a local USBC director we work for our local bowlers ....now again from the press release that was posted above I see Kurt Pilon name listed above and yeah he didnt fair too well on tour but maybe personal but a target on his back and try to beat him.

Out here in Arizona we have Mike Haugen Jr(PBA Exempt), Andrew Cain(PBA Exempt), Tina Stickney (Team USA), Brett Wolfe(ABC Masters Champ/won it with the blue hammer, also avg over 250 a season ago) we have a scratch tournament club out here and what do you think there doing on their time off...there bowling locally. What about down in Texas when the tour's on break Chris and Linda Barnes, Wes they need something to do on their break. Let them bowl and make the rest of us show up to bowl. No matter what the shot ever is you need to bowl better than just your best to win.

[Iceman]

If this was a City Tournament, then the issue is with the local association, not Nationals. My recommendation is to get involved as a director in the association. I would also recommend you attend the annual open meeting and bring friends who feel the same way as you do.

A suggestion is to not keep the local pros out of the tournament, but use divisions and have the top division be set so that it really only includes the elite bowlers. I doubt a City or State Tournament can exclude a USBC dues paying member from participation because they also hold a PBA Card.

You bring up a valid point - regarding Nationals - when bowlers go there, they know it's NOT a typical house shot, but they still go? Why does the local organization think bowlers won't go if they toughen the shot like Nationals? It's like there are 2 different scenarios within the USBC organization? I'm not trying to start a revolution, I'm sure I'm not the first to think this, I just want the USBC to tough the shot up, and compete, even if they have to add additional tourneys to do it. Sweepers are ok, - but from one house to another, it's the house mouses - and most of them don't go to other house sweepers. I've been to a few sweepers this year at other houses, usually a THS so it's not showing me I learned anything.

[Iceman]

Im not going to repost to all the posts after mine but here is the easier said but done answer


WE SHOULD ALL BOWL ON A USBC SPORT OR PBA EXPERIENCE SHOT

This is where you as a bowler call or talk to your LOCAL USBC office because speaking as a local USBC director we work for our local bowlers ....now again from the press release that was posted above I see Kurt Pilon name listed above and yeah he didnt fair too well on tour but maybe personal but a target on his back and try to beat him.

Out here in Arizona we have Mike Haugen Jr(PBA Exempt), Andrew Cain(PBA Exempt), Tina Stickney (Team USA), Brett Wolfe(ABC Masters Champ/won it with the blue hammer, also avg over 250 a season ago) we have a scratch tournament club out here and what do you think there doing on their time off...there bowling locally. What about down in Texas when the tour's on break Chris and Linda Barnes, Wes they need something to do on their break. Let them bowl and make the rest of us show up to bowl. No matter what the shot ever is you need to bowl better than just your best to win.


Now this is an explanation, maybe I assumed they were missing pro tourneys to bowl locally in City. I'm sure there are ppl out there like that, but I guess I have to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

I will just speak locally and see if they can or will do something - even if I have to come up with a suggestion to make it fit. Thanks Brian!

One other thing - How do you bowl better than just your best to win? Maybe you mistyped it, but that kind of sounds like one of the other post headings about oxy morons. No pun intended here.

[onefrombills]

Isn't this what bowling is about, spare shooting? 9 strikes and a missed spare = a bad game right?

I really hate to say no its not anymore......The balls have gotten so much technologically behind them now that its all about how many strikes can I throw and when you dont strike you go to your bag and take another one of the six you brought out

[bowl1820]

I believe I get your point

That the pro's are so good that when they enter a small local tournament, the majority of the "amateur" bowlers can't compete with nthem. So they (the pros) shouldn't be allowed to bowl in them.Plus conditions for tournaments should be tougher.

Let me pose a question.

Where in a USBC sanctioned tournament would you draw the line for PBA members who could or couldn't enter it?

1-No PBA members at all
2-Just No National Touring members
3-No National Touring or Regional touring members
4-No National Touring or Regional touring members that have bowled over X number of tournaments in a specified time period.

Now also if you restrict PBA members from tournaments what about leagues? The same argument for not having them in a tournament applies to leagues also. So should PBA members not be allowed in leagues also.

Then what about high level amateurs? There are plenty of them that are just as good as pros. Having division's is fine, but you have to have enough entries to do it. Your local assoc response was a valid one.


with the limited number of teams that bowl now if you pair down the divisions even more, the prize money would be so small that no one would participate.

As for tournament conditions.
I think the shot should be more challenging than a THS. But finding that challenging but fair shot is a hard task.The response of "There is no lane condition we can put out that will make everyone happy." from the local assoc. is a valid one.

Shoot People still complain about the shot for lefty's vs righty's in tournaments about what's fair.

[kev3inp]

Now there's a point. What are the "pros" doing in a tournament that has been softened up for the typical house mouse? Aren't there regionals that they could be bowling instead or are they making so much money off the donators, and they can't cash in their own events, that it makes it economically viable? Give them their own brackets then or announce to all concerned that they're in and see how much bracket action you get. If it's a handicap tournament why not penalize them pins over to even up the field? Oh, that wouldn't be fair? Sounds pretty fair to me, but then I'm not averaging 240 in my league.

Sorry, I'm with Iceman on this one.

[Iceman]

I agree - everyone should bowl on tougher shots through leagues and tournaments, they should not soften the shot to get more participation.

At minimum, I think every house should have a winter league or a few leagues that are tougher patterns, but the house wants to fill an entire league, so it's about money there also.

It's just hard for bowlers that want to get better and compete - have to go play a soften shot, throw all strikes to compete and gain experience. The pro's today did this in the past, but the shots were not as easy back then.

I've watched video's from 70 and 80 decades on PBA bowling, before the palm trees and sunglasses were a requirement, they were good, because of their accuracy and spare shooting. Bowling is about stringing strikes, and when you have 8 in a row and leave a solid 8 (righty), you just lost your game.

Maybe this is just opening my eyes more to the major differences in the game. Leagues included, I realize I'm not a 230 avg house mouse, I love to go play harder shots and see how I compare. Maybe there's not many like me anymore - everyone wants to shoot a 269 and get their 800. But these people need to realize, even on the THS, they still don't do it, they are happy with 600's or 700's. Then they complain cause they can't carry single pins. It's a no win situation really - but there has to be a solution. I know the USBC is modifying the regulation on the coverstocks, how this is going to reflect everything? I haven't read a lot about the modifications so I don't understand it 100%. I know this will effect manufacturers remaking balls, so this will show in costs, but what about the shots? I say bring back the white / yellow dot - flat the pattern and let everyone bowl. People have just got so hung up on a specific ball anymore, it's crazy to me. I experiement with all the manufacturers and throw whichever one I do that night, every ball will work on any condition, but you may lose the "room" or "floating" that another ball would have. So what? This is called being accurate and targeting - this is what makes you a better bowler that night, not that you had 5 board room margin and carried.

Tournaments to me - are progress measurements - I go in wanting to not throw the best I can without making mistakes - I really try to be fine with my shots - even when I make a mistake and carry, I don't react like I meant that - or when I watch someone throwing 15 and flank 1 out to 3 and come back to pocket and carry and he's chest pumping on his way back, I don't acknowledge that.

Many bowlers, don't see that as lucky - they just throw the same thing next time, not caring what board they hit, only if they strike. Put a shot that details accuracy and consistency. I've watch many pro tourneys, and you don't see many weeks that pro's are flanking one and pulling the hell out of the next and winning tournaments. They are precise and it's what makes them great.

[Iceman]

As for tournament conditions.
I think the shot should be more challenging than a THS. But finding that challenging but fair shot is a hard task.The response of "There is no lane condition we can put out that will make everyone happy." from the local assoc. is a valid one.

Shoot People still complain about the shot for lefty's vs righty's in tournaments about what's fair.

I agree to a point - but putting a shot down that is tough and make you detail accuracy and speed, will determine spare shooting and if you string strikes, hat's off. Just reduce the margin for error - the shot will be the same for everyone, but I guess people don't really want to find out how bad they really are from a walled up shot (that makes them get to the pocket)

The Lefty/Righty saga will never end - I have read articles from PBA bowlers stating this exact same thing. I say - for lefty's (who play 5 and no where else) take a bug spray, squirt 1 spot on the lane about 20 feet down around 5 and get it on. Some will figure it out, everyone else will be lost.

[Iceman]

To answer Bowl1820 -

Not restricting any PBA bowler, they should just be in their "elite division" for brackets and honestly, give them a free pass to the masters, just leave the positions for the non-pro's trying to make the masters.

League bowling - I really can't understand why a Pro (touring pro) would go join a local house league for money, unless it was a executive type league, but these are usually not THS.

OVerall, if you toughen the shot up, the pro's will not be cleaning house so easily, they will have to work hard, and we will have to work harder to - this makes it fair. If you put a THS out, a touring Pro walks in licking his lips and forking out $1000 for all brackets. no one has to try, it doesn't focus on bowling skills, it's like I said before a carry slaughterhouse - either you do or your out.

[onefrombills]

If this helps out or not we have a state wide scratch tournament club and you may notice some names and faces that bowl it.....Last months winner like I said in an early post is Brett Wolfe

www.azbowlingclub.com

[Iceman]

If this helps out or not we have a state wide scratch tournament club and you may notice some names and faces that bowl it.....Last months winner like I said in an early post is Brett Wolfe

www.azbowlingclub.com


Is this noticed by the USBC or is this state association only? I think this would be a great ideal to have. Host numerouse tournaments around the state at different houses - like a sweeper, but more defined in tournament like fashion.

Where can I get info on how this is setup or defined per tournament?

[onefrombills]

Is this noticed by the USBC or is this state association only? I think this would be a great ideal to have. Host numerouse tournaments around the state at different houses - like a sweeper, but more defined in tournament like fashion.

Where can I get info on how this is setup or defined per tournament?

Not too sure the question here?

[Iceman]

I mean is the state scratch tournament recognized by the USBC? Our local USBC organization told me they only track tournaments which they approve and have no record of any others. Do they control the shot that is down or hose the tournament I guess would be the question..

[JAnderson]

This should underscore the importance of understanding tournament rules before entering. The same is true of brackets, side pots, or any other wagering around bowling. The local association was simply executing the tournament as set forth in the rules.

I can argue both sides of the argument on this one.

If an association has open membership, all members should be allowed to participate in association events.

Pros should not be competing in what is essentially an amateur competition.

[Iceman]

I was only pointing this out as to referencing how the USBC is not really doing a good job on divisioning the ranks. There are so many different levels of bowlers, I'm sure it is a hard thing to do - it's just doesn't seem right for some of us whom are trying to get experience have to bowl better than our best to even get the experience. It's an oxy moron I know, but something has to give.

There are many bowlers out there, I met one today who told me he looks for tournaments to clean house in brackets. He carries a PBA card, but does not national tour, only regional.

I even asked him if he thought it was fair, he said "hey, I've paid my dues, it's time for me to cash." I don't agree with him on that, but everyone has a different view on fairness.

The USBC directors I have spoken with over the past 2 days have been very helpful and listened well. They do take everyone's thoughts on record and based on the stats of our local city tournament, the director told me, his response was not correct, the last 5 years have shown a 35% increase in participation - so softening the shot this year due to participation (last year) was not correct at all.

[JAnderson]

I was only pointing this out as to referencing how the USBC is not really doing a good job on divisioning the ranks. There are so many different levels of bowlers, I'm sure it is a hard thing to do

Almost impossible as long as there are dishonest people out there.

Consider blatant sandbagging and tournament directors that refuse to re-rate or tournament directors that re-rate too aggressively. There's a local handicap tournament here in Atlanta every 6 months that pays $10,000 cash for first place. The average that is used is the average established in one specific league. All other averages are ignored. The only reason it hasn't yet been victimized by a sandbagger is that it isn't widely known. Yet.

For too long, the measure of ability has generally been considered a bowler's book average. With widely varied lane conditions, that's simply no longer the case. There are league bowlers who genuinely average in the 190-210 range that go to a PBA regional and make it into match play. League bowlers from the same league who average 220+ go to the same PBA event and don't make it into the top half of the field, let alone the cash cut or match play.

League average means nothing.

Holding a PBA card (or not) is not an accurate measurement of ability either. There are PBA members who have never been to a PBA event, even as a spectator. The PBA has been lax in enforcing membership participation rules becaue for the PBA, the yearly membership checks constitute free money for the PBA. There are amateur bowlers who win PBA events.

If you earn a PBA national tour exemption, it indicates that you are in the top echelon of bowlers. That measuring stick can only be applied to a few hundred bowlers in history, however.

When it comes to creating a rating system in an attempt to create equality amongst bowlers competing for cash or prizes, the only way I can see to make equitable divisions is by earnings and even that method has problems. Bowlers who have won in excess of $1,000,000 USD in their lifetime are in a different class of bowler from 99.9999% of the bowling population. Bowlers who win more than $10,000 annually are in a different class than 99.99% of the bowling population.

The problems should be obvious. How do you ensure that bowlers are reporting all winnings? How good do you think Walter Ray Williams is going to be on his 114 birthday? You still catch people in your division as they are "on their way up".

Is there another way to ensure equitable divisions? Probably not. Keep that in mind when you put money on the line.