walk direction and ball placement direction

[Beagle]

understand there r 2 schools of thought on walk direction. relatively straight or parallel to target line. parallel to target line is self explanatory, but will phase out as u move deep...walking straight u want to finish somewhere close to board u started on. but when doing so do u place ball towards target or straight? have seen conflicting info all over the place on this.....

[RobLV1]

It's actually one and the same. When we play "down the boards" as we do on a house shot in the track area we walk straight which IS parallel to the target line. As we move left, the tendency is to start walking a little bit right which is still parallel to the target line. This would be O.K. if this were as far as it went, but it's not. As we move further left, if that tendency is allowed to continue, we reach a point where the angle created by the direction of our feet becomes so severe that it becomes virtually impossible to trust the shot and stay behind the ball, so we start to come over the top of the shot to help to get it back, and lose all the power in the release as a result.

A little bit of drift to the right is O.K. as long as it is limited to a board or two. The shoulders and hips should be opened up to the intended target line, and the armswing should go in the direction of that line.

[Hammer]

Now I am confused. When I watch the pros on YOUTUBE if they are playing deep it looks like they walk straight or a little left and swing straight. What seems to make the ball go over the target right they are aiming at is that on the forward swing the ball comes down close to the side of their body and takes an inside out direction to their target because of the open shoulders at the release. So am I right in thinking that what Rob is saying is when playing deep you walk straight or a little left but while doing that your swing swings out to the target you are aiming at as you make your approach? Rob, I thought in another post you said when you are making your approach you walk straight or a little left and swing straight but on the forward swing the ball will tuck close to the body and make you have an inside out swing which will make your ball go right with the help of the open shoulders you have in your setup before you start your approach. I would like to get this straightened out also. HELP!

[JohnnyG]

The key components of an effective bowling arm swing are speed control and accuracy to your target. Tempo and direction have always been keys of successful arm swings..Great tips!

[RobLV1]

There are several ways to accomplish this, however, the most understandable is discribed in the illustration that is in the lower right corner of the banner illustration on my website, www.Modern-bowling.com. I apologize, but I tried to drop this illustration into a response yesterday, and the computer is not allowing me to do it (at 65, I'm not exactly Mr. Techno, but I'm doing my best). Just walk straight, open the shoulders and the hips, and make sure that your armswing going in the same direction as your intended angle.

http://www.modern-bowling.com/image/76667060.jpg

[Hammer]

So the answer to my question is walk straight or a little left but swing to your target arrow on your approach.

[Beagle]

Hammer u r correct. almost all place ball straight and not towards target when playing deep.....that's why so confusing. if u push/place ball toward target when walking straight isn't ur armswing out of the 4'' pro groove that they preach about

[RobLV1]

No! If your shoulders and hips are facing your intended target line, it does not get you out of the "pro groove." If you walk to the right and throw left, THAT gets you out of the pro groove and over the top of the ball.

[Aslan]

we reach a point where the angle created by the direction of our feet becomes so severe that it becomes virtually impossible to trust the shot and stay behind the ball, so we start to come over the top of the shot to help to get it back, and lose all the power in the release as a result.


I experienced this today. I tried to play "inside" (relatively speaking)…left foot on board 25-28 and throw toward the 11-board. If I try to stay behind the ball or even do my standard "suitcase" style release; the ball simply cannot make it back and misses the headpin right. I "was" able to strike….but I had to "try" to get revs by coming over top the ball…and of course lowering the speed < 14mph. Leads to some very weak hits, lots of 10-pins, 5-pins, 7-pins, and 4-7s.

[RobLV1]

Okay, let's look at this using simple mathematics. If you are standing on 28, your laydown point should be around 20 (giving you the benefit of the doubt). If you lay the ball down on 20, and throw it straight to a target of 11 at the arrows, it will be in the gutter before it gets to 25 feet. Targeting 11 is not "playing inside." If you are standing 28 and laying down on 20, you should be targeting around 14-15. You need to get the whole concept of trying to help the ball out of your mind, and just let it go!

[Beagle]

so answer is push/place ball toward target when walking relatively straight.......

[bowl1820]

Okay, let's look at this using simple mathematics. If you are standing on 28, your laydown point should be around 20 (giving you the benefit of the doubt). If you lay the ball down on 20, and throw it straight to a target of 11 at the arrows, it will be in the gutter before it gets to 25 feet. Targeting 11 is not "playing inside." If you are standing 28 and laying down on 20, you should be targeting around 14-15. You need to get the whole concept of trying to help the ball out of your mind, and just let it go!

heres a graphic:

Red is laydown on 20 target 11
Green is laydown on 20 target 14/15
http://s5.postimg.org/6o8eic6vb/targetline1.jpg

[Amyers]

heres a graphic:

Red is laydown on 20 target 11
Green is laydown on 20 target 14/15
http://s5.postimg.org/6o8eic6vb/targetline1.jpg


Great graphic bowl

[Mike White]

heres a graphic:

Red is laydown on 20 target 11
Green is laydown on 20 target 14/15
http://s5.postimg.org/6o8eic6vb/targetline1.jpg

My shot on a house condition is similar to the green line.

If I miss right by 2 boards it's likely to be a 0, but if it stays on the lane, it's coming back sweet.

If I miss left by 1 board it hits the hold area and tends not to carry well.

[fortheloveofbowling]

That is when you make a little 3 & 2 move (3 right with the feet and 2 right with the eyes) and play closer to that shim. That will still give you the bump off the dry and on a miss left set up in the hold a little earlier.

[Aslan]

Okay, let's look at this using simple mathematics. If you are standing on 28, your laydown point should be around 20 (giving you the benefit of the doubt). If you lay the ball down on 20, and throw it straight to a target of 11 at the arrows, it will be in the gutter before it gets to 25 feet. Targeting 11 is not "playing inside." If you are standing 28 and laying down on 20, you should be targeting around 14-15. You need to get the whole concept of trying to help the ball out of your mind, and just let it go!

I'm still trying to work out the whole lateral movement and targeting. Rob is absolutely right...once you start moving left...if your target doesn't move with you...you end up with a straight shot into the gutter. My formula usually involves moving my feet 4 boards and my target 1 board. As long as I move the target with the feet, I usually don't run into trouble. But...the further left I get...the bigger that gap gets...trouble.

The evolving concept that I'm trying to wrap my head around is "targeting". We talk about laydown and targeting arrows. But in the USBC video, they talk about targeting a "break point" and "moving your eyes". I've noticed now that my lanes have range finders...no matter how it gets there...if the ball gets to the right edge of the far right range finder...it usually strikes. If it is anywhere else, I usually leave a spare. So, no matter where I'm aiming or standing...what really matters is whether the ball gets to the proper break point. Obvioiusly it's not quite THAT simple...and there are other considerations...but it's remarkably consistant.

So, how do we "do that"? I don't know. I've seen all kinds of new age targeting, 3-point targeting, foul line targeting, pin shadow targeting....I don't know. I've tried 3-point and didn't like it. I tried targeting the dots...didn't like that either. So I stick with the arrows. But, work in progress.

[RobLV1]

The main thing is not where you target, but being aware of where your ball is all the way from the laydown point to the breakpoint. Personally I target at the reflections of the pins, but I am aware of where the ball is when it crosses the arrows. I can do this by looking initially at my laydown point which insures that I am not walking right, shifting my eyes to the arrows to insure the correct angle, and finally focusing on my target at the point of release. This takes a little bit of practice, but the more I practice it, the better I get at it.

[fortheloveofbowling]

On a house shot i like to find a break point that i know is going to get me to the pocket with hopefully a little tug to the left. At that point i then determine where at the arrows i need to hit to get the right reaction from that break point. These 2 things will tell you exactly where your lay down point should be. That is where the problem occurs for many people because you have to know how far away from your sliding foot the middle of the ball is upon release. Once you figure that out you can draw that imaginary line and really visualize your shot all the way down the lane before you step on the approach. That might be weird but it gives me a good thought process on what i'm trying to do. Its kind of like a pool player trying to find a certain spot on a cushion to play a bank shot. Sorry, just rambling.

[rv driver]

It's really not a difficult concept. You walk perpendicular to the foul line. Your hips and shoulders are "open," or twisted, to the right (for a right-hander), perpendicular to the line of travel you wish the ball to take. I think I'm gathering, though, that as you move left, you keep your shoulder/hip angle the same. You don't "open more."

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob could tell you for sure but i think walking a little left is ideal. That is to get your hips out of the way on your back swing so it doesn't bump out. Most important though i would think is to repeat the approach consistently.

[Amyers]

Rob could tell you for sure but i think walking a little left is ideal. That is to get your hips out of the way on your back swing so it doesn't bump out. Most important though i would think is to repeat the approach consistently.

You have to walk a little left when playing inside to get the proper angle there is no way to get the angle without some movement to the left.

[RobLV1]

Yes, a little to the left, so that you can slide back to the right which is virtually mandatory.

[rv driver]

Isn't that accomplished, though, more by "stepping in front" with the push-off foot and then placing the slide foot in its usual place, more than actually walking left?

[Blacksox1]

heres a graphic:

Red is laydown on 20 target 11
Green is laydown on 20 target 14/15
http://s5.postimg.org/6o8eic6vb/targetline1.jpg

bowl1820 on target with this !

[rv driver]

bowl1820 on target with this !
Yes! Love the graphic. Thanks, bowl1820!

[bowl1820]

Yes, a little to the left, so that you can slide back to the right which is virtually mandatory.

Here's a graphic that could help:
http://s5.postimg.org/5o9txwatj/bowling_footwork_01.jpg

walking parallel to the boards (indicated by the Blue line) with the shoulders open to the intended target (green line).

[fortheloveofbowling]

Above all though whether you drift 1 or 10 you have to do it consistently. It is so important to know where that ball is at your feet.

[Beagle]

ok that should help.....never really thought of looking at laydown point...I use the crossover step but my problem is that I don't fill the hole on the last step...I slide straight rather than slightly to the right......

[rv driver]

Wooooow!!!!!

I have soooo got some footwork work to do!!! I just realized that I walk as if I'm walking down the sidewalk. I don't cross over At. All. And I suppose the slide foot has to cross right on the slide in order to help you balance while you drop the ball forward? Plus, it helps facilitate the push-off foot coming behind on the delivery.

[rv driver]

Is there a way I can save this chart somewhere on my computer, so I don't lose it, bowl1820?

[Beagle]

yeppers.....trying to figure a way to force myself to fill the hole on that slide.....gonna try to sneak a peek at that laydown point and see if that helps

[bowl1820]

Is there a way I can save this chart somewhere on my computer, so I don't lose it, bowl1820?

Just put your cursor on the image and right click on it and do "Save Image As"

[rv driver]

Just put your cursor on the image and right click on it and do "Save Image As"
Tnx!!!

edit: Mission accomplished!

edit #2: You should put up a diagram to teach us the Lambada, while you're at it -- or at least the Hokey Pokey. Except that Ice wouldn't need it, because he's Got the Gift for it already...
And Aslan would just Scare Women Away with it.

[Amyers]

Wooooow!!!!!

I have soooo got some footwork work to do!!! I just realized that I walk as if I'm walking down the sidewalk. I don't cross over At. All. And I suppose the slide foot has to cross right on the slide in order to help you balance while you drop the ball forward? Plus, it helps facilitate the push-off foot coming behind on the delivery.

Remember this is for playing inside lines doesn't apply to outside lines or your going to throw a lot of gutterballs 😰

[rv driver]

Remember this is for playing inside lines doesn't apply to outside lines or your going to throw a lot of gutterballs �� yeah, but you should still step in front, correct, in order to get a straight arm swing? Just don't open your shoulders. Yes? Or am I completely mistaken as to the purpose of the step-in-front technique?

[Beagle]

that's my take on it too....disagree crossover/tightrope step just for inside lines.........that step allows u to get hip out of way and head over the ball for a straight swing...if shoulders are aligned properly it works

[RobLV1]

You're exactly right. The crossover steps (2 and 4 back from the line) allow the ball to clear the hip on the way back, and on the way forward.

[Mike White]

yeah, but you should still step in front, correct, in order to get a straight arm swing? Just don't open your shoulders. Yes? Or am I completely mistaken as to the purpose of the step-in-front technique?

Assuming Right handed.

Your first step with your right foot should be in front of your left foot.

This clears a path for the ball to swing down below your shoulder without hitting your right leg.

Your last step (slide) with your left foot should end up centered between your shoulders.

Since you don't want to move your shoulders sideways at the release, you move your foot to achieve the centering.

This provides for both balance, and leverage.

[rv driver]

Assuming Right handed.

Your first step with your right foot should be in front of your left foot.

This clears a path for the ball to swing down below your shoulder without hitting your right leg.

Your last step (slide) with your left foot should end up centered between your shoulders.

Since you don't want to move your shoulders sideways at the release, you move your foot to achieve the centering.

This provides for both balance, and leverage.
Ok. So that explains why I kept throwing the ball across my body all those years, until I figured out how to open my shoulders to the right in just the right way to make the ball go up the boards... 'cause I wasn't stepping in front to create room for the straight swing. That makes a lot of sense! I used to get A. Lot. of Brooklyn strikes.

[mc_runner]

This thread is very informative! It's great when you can think back to your game off the advice here and "see" where things need to improve.

[Beagle]

Ironic trying to learn"modern game" and yet what Mike White said dead on. The last step is centered between ur 2 shoulders so u don't lose the angle of ur shoulders that u started with.....Bill Taylor wrote abt this in book about the fall of Don Carter......some fundamentals never change

[rv driver]

Ironic trying to learn"modern game" and yet what Mike White said dead on. The last step is centered between ur 2 shoulders so u don't lose the angle of ur shoulders that u started with.....Bill Taylor wrote abt this in book about the fall of Don Carter......some fundamentals never change
Last step centered between shoulders. Never heard that before, but it makes sense!

[Amyers]

that's my take on it too....disagree crossover/tightrope step just for inside lines.........that step allows u to get hip out of way and head over the ball for a straight swing...if shoulders are aligned properly it works

I was referring to the walk left slide right portion of this only being for inside lines you can crossover step without walking left.

[rv driver]

I was referring to the walk left slide right portion of this only being for inside lines you can crossover step without walking left. Thanks for the clarification.

[rv driver]

I watched some Youtube vid of Christ Barnes and Norm Duke this afternoon, that had some good closeups of their footwork. They do cross over with their right foot, and slide slightly right, so their left foot is right underneath them. Wish I still knew what the URLs were -- I'd link them here.

[rv driver]

I think these are them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CrjK7JES8s

Especially this one, at about 1:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-bqZNP_obo

[mike_thomas93]

Any compare/contrast on Jason Belmonte's walk placement line? Example, you know how he kind of shuffles his feet to the left when he lofts the left gutter cap? Of course, implying him being on the right lane since he'd have to stand next to the ball return then shuffles in front of it when he's about to loft. Anyone care to share their intake on that? ;p

[rv driver]

Any compare/contrast on Jason Belmonte's walk placement line? Example, you know how he kind of shuffles his feet to the left when he lofts the left gutter cap? Of course, implying him being on the right lane since he'd have to stand next to the ball return then shuffles in front of it when he's about to loft. Anyone care to share their intake on that? ;p
I have trouble watching Belmonte, because his modern, two-handed style frightens and confuses me. Seriously, it's hard for me to watch what his feet are doing, because there's no classic arm swing to correlate the footwork to.

[Beagle]

He does that for HIS game.....looks great on TV......is it necessary for us mortals...I don't think so......best analogy I can think of....if u u have ever seen a baseball game at Wrigley Field, would u be satisfied hitting 30 Hrs onto Waveland ave or 40 Hrs that just made the net

[rv driver]

I don't think my back could take me bowling two-handed. It would laugh and then crumple.

[Aslan]

I watched the PBA Wolf telecast on Youtube trying to get some tips on how to approach it next week. Unfortunately, only Norm Dukle played it the way I would...and as I was watching, Peterson made the comment, "Watch how Norm generates speed with his feet." They then showed Norm during some kind of weird like 11-step shuffle to the foul line at warp speed...and...as a bowler that is trying to SLOW DOWN his approach and feet...it was like seeing Bea Arthur nude...I had to quickly avert my eyes and repeat, "okay...don't do that...don't do that...".

I have to remind myself that it's Norm Duke...and he can get away that because he's able to generate the revs needed with the accuracy intact. Man...If I started that deep in the approach...7-9 steps at that speed...I'd be lofting the arrows at 24mph. Yikes.

[Amyers]

I watched the PBA Wolf telecast on Youtube trying to get some tips on how to approach it next week. Unfortunately, only Norm Dukle played it the way I would...and as I was watching, Peterson made the comment, "Watch how Norm generates speed with his feet." They then showed Norm during some kind of weird like 11-step shuffle to the foul line at warp speed...and...as a bowler that is trying to SLOW DOWN his approach and feet...it was like seeing Bea Arthur nude...I had to quickly avert my eyes and repeat, "okay...don't do that...don't do that...".

I have to remind myself that it's Norm Duke...and he can get away that because he's able to generate the revs needed with the accuracy intact. Man...If I started that deep in the approach...7-9 steps at that speed...I'd be lofting the arrows at 24mph. Yikes.

I have never been able to understand how Norm changes his approach as much as he does from tournament to tournament and still throws the ball great. Me I get out of whack by 1/4 of a step and I end up on the floor

[RobLV1]

To Aslan I would like to ask the question, how do you know how you would approach it? 1. You've never bowled the pattern. 2. A PBA shot NEVER plays the same for several reasons: lane machine is different, type of oil is different, lane surface is different. 3. Lane topography affects how a pattern plays, and from what I remember, you are bowling on brand new synthetic lanes that has to affect how the pattern plays. 4. Whether conditions, especially humidy affect how the lanes play. Interestingly, the first article that I ever wrote for Bowling This Month addressed how dangerous preconceptions can be to bowling. Since then it's been a recurring theme, and I definitely think that it applies here.

To anyone who is even considering getting more ball speed by speeding up your feet, remember that Norm Duke weighs in at about 145 lbs. He's worked at speeding up his feet to compensate for his stature for many years. There are other more effective ways of getting more ball speed that you should definitely consider before racing to the foul line.

[fortheloveofbowling]

A perfect example of that is the pba senior tours recently completed first 60 and over event. They used the salvino pba50 pattern because they thought that would create a middle of the road scoring pace. It played alot tougher than previous tournaments when it was used and the cut for the top 32 was around 195. That was probably about 15 pins less than what they were trying to achieve i'm sure.

[Aslan]

To Aslan I would like to ask the question, how do you know how you would approach it? 1. You've never bowled the pattern.
Well, I don't "know" how I'm going to play it…but I'm reasonably sure that I don't have the rev rate and power game of O'Neill, Loschetter, PDW, nor Tackett.


you are bowling on brand new synthetic lanes that has to affect how the pattern plays.
Actually no. This is a league I recently joined at another house. Bunny and her husband were in a sport shot trio league and needed a 3rd.


To anyone who is even considering getting more ball speed by speeding up your feet, remember that Norm Duke weighs in at about 145 lbs. He's worked at speeding up his feet to compensate for his stature for many years. Good point.

I actually don't "know" how to play it. I'm more optimistic about it than I was the PBA Shark because I tend to well on drier conditions and the PBA Wolf will give me plenty of "dry" in the last half of the lane. But no, I don't know how to play it. I've watched the pros, I've read what the online experts (including yours truly) have to say…so now it'll just be time to give it a shot and see what happens.

With the PBA Shark, I knew from reading online and talking with Bunny that I'd HAVE TO change my game. Normally I start my shot at the 7-board and move inward. But with the Shark, I'd have no chance outside the 2nd arrow. So I targeted 11 in week 1…moved my feet about 7 boards right. In week 2 I didn't bother with board 11 and targeted board 12 instead with my feet just a tad more towards the center. Well, it worked…won 2 side pots for high score and shot a 720 over 4 games….averaged 180. You'd know all this if you joined my fan club and read my "Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)" thread. :cool:

With the Wolf, I "think" I need to play my usual house shot at the 7-board and see what happens. I figure the heavier oil further out to the right will delay my ball reaction enough and my low revs will still get me to the pocket at a good angle. If not, and I need to move a little left…try to get the ball closer to that 1-2 board break point…I can possibly do that. Or, I can ball down to the Frantic. I'll also, if things go well, have a couple other balls to try. Whether I use them will depend on how they work out during Wednesday practice and Thursday league.

I read your advice about moving right instead of left…just remember, at my rev rate, even on a short pattern…I won't be starting out as far left as the advanced bowlers you probably intend that for. But any advice anyone has would be welcome.