modern release cuz of reactive resin

[Beagle]

read all analogies about how to release ball......underhand lateral with football,softball release, roll duct tape back 2 u, turn doorknob,make fist, etc.......these were around b4 reactive resin came on board......see tapes from don Johnson and jowdy/Holman. I believe sometime in 80s........think people,myself included, are experiencing paralysis by analysis..........with all the knowledge on these boards we should could come with ABSOLUTE MUSTS/FUNDAMENTALS that all successful bowlers need irregardless of style.ie stroker,cranker, tweener etc......

[RobLV1]

Good post! Here are the absolute musts/fundamentals that I believe should be emphasized for bowlers on modern synthetic lanes using reactive resin balls:

1. Timing: the bowler and the ball must arrive at the foul line at the same time.
2. Balance: being able to post each shot guarantees good timing.
3. Repitition: being able to throw the ball the same each time.
4. Projection: being able to project the ball down the lane with minimal "lift," in other words following through in an outward direction rather than an upward direction.

[Beagle]

agree totally......especially#4 project ball out....that's what u see pros do on all those u tube videos now. the overall goal is to throw/roll a strong/powerful ball with minimal effort

[Beagle]

besides the well known superstars,Barnes, Weber,Jones,Rash etc, others who did this John Gant, Steelsmith, Bryan Goebel, Robert Lawrence

[MICHAEL]

Good post! Here are the absolute musts/fundamentals that I believe should be emphasized for bowlers on modern synthetic lanes using reactive resin balls:

1. Timing: the bowler and the ball must arrive at the foul line at the same time.
2. Balance: being able to post each shot guarantees good timing.
3. Repitition: being able to throw the ball the same each time.
4. Projection: being able to project the ball down the lane with minimal "lift," in other words following through in an outward direction rather than an upward direction.

Ok,,, I understand the first 3, but Projection? In regards to bowling, I don't quit understand. All the bowlers I watch each week on TV look like they follow though toward the ceiling, (straight UP). I think in my mind projecting onto the lane would have a more straight OUT look, like that English bowler I have seen a few times on tv.

When he throws the ball it looks like he is stopping his swing straight out parallel to his body, with no follow through? I will find his name here in a minute.

Please ,,, at a movie show you have a projector used to show the movie,,,, can anyone show me the difference between projecting the ball, and throwing the ball with lift and follow through.

I would Like to give this projecting a try, but not exactly sure what the hell it is?

Maybe even a video showing the difference? If so Ice would really appreciate it!

[MICHAEL]

Ok,,, I understand the first 3, but Projection? In regards to bowling, I don't quit understand. All the bowlers I watch each week on TV look like they follow though toward the ceiling, (straight UP). I think in my mind projecting onto the lane would have a more straight OUT look, like that English bowler I have seen a few times on tv.

When he throws the ball it looks like he is stopping his swing straight out parallel to his body, with no follow through? I will find his name here in a minute.

Please ,,, at a movie show you have a projector used to show the movie,,,, can anyone show me the difference between projecting the ball, and throwing the ball with lift and follow through.

I would Like to give this projecting a try, but not exactly sure what the hell it is?

Maybe even a video showing the difference? If so Ice would really appreciate it!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/3ea9a23f-e52f-4b6a-a02b-1602f7b14f32_zps23b0c3d4.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/3ea9a23f-e52f-4b6a-a02b-1602f7b14f32_zps23b0c3d4.jpg.html)

[Beagle]

ok here's my take on this....and I am not a coach.....using follow thru height, length, etc is not really a concern. its a continuation of ur armswing......projection is outward, not upward. Holman-out Roth-up....analogies/ quips that I can think of to achieve this have been around for awhile....smooth landing of a plane on a runaway, pins aren't on the ceiling, pretend u have a paintbrush in ur hand and paint ur target line on the lane from foul line to arrows, toss a basketball to someone that doesn't bounce. Whatever people call it-lift and turn, turn and lift,revs, cup/uncup,cock/uncock, fan the ball etc. release the ball with no bounce, minimal noise....that's into the lane not out onto the lane.....think that ur armswing at moment of release is similar to one those kids'slide found on a playground....

[MICHAEL]

ok here's my take on this....and I am not a coach.....using follow thru height, length, etc is not really a concern. its a continuation of ur armswing......projection is outward, not upward. Holman-out Roth-up....analogies/ quips that I can think of to achieve this have been around for awhile....smooth landing of a plane on a runaway, pins aren't on the ceiling, pretend u have a paintbrush in ur hand and paint ur target line on the lane from foul line to arrows, toss a basketball to someone that doesn't bounce. Whatever people call it-lift and turn, turn and lift,revs, cup/uncup,cock/uncock, fan the ball etc. release the ball with no bounce, minimal noise....that's into the lane not out onto the lane.....think that ur armswing at moment of release is similar to one those kids'slide found on a playground....

WHAT??? " think of arm swing as a kid's slide???"

NOW I AM TOTALLY lost!! LOL What about those slides that have a huge hump, or curve midway down?

I am thinking when EVER ANYONE THROWS a bowling ball down the lane, they are projecting a ball? NEED MORE DATA!!!! HELP!!

I would like to give this PROJECTING a try tonight with my Deadly Aim!

[Beagle]

Basic straight slide we used as kids..im 56....slide did not send u airborne.....maybe trajectory of ball rather than porojection might help.....that's why u hear people talking about pushing the ball down the lane.......

[Shaneshu87]

WHAT??? " think of arm swing as a kid's slide???"

NOW I AM TOTALLY lost!! LOL What about those slides that have a huge hump, or curve midway down?

I am thinking when EVER ANYONE THROWS a bowling ball down the lane, they are projecting a ball? NEED MORE DATA!!!! HELP!!

I would like to give this PROJECTING a try tonight with my Deadly Aim!

projecting the ball down the lane is basically moving you mark, instead of using a target that is 10 feet from you (the arrows), you project you target down lane, example: the reflection of the pins on the lane. doing this will increase accuracy so long as you can constantly hit it. once i learned how to project the ball my average increased by nearly 20 pins over a summers worth of practice

[Mike White]

projecting the ball down the lane is basically moving you mark, instead of using a target that is 10 feet from you (the arrows), you project you target down lane, example: the reflection of the pins on the lane. doing this will increase accuracy so long as you can constantly hit it. once i learned how to project the ball my average increased by nearly 20 pins over a summers worth of practice

Moving your mark down the lane is a way to achieve better projection if your problem is releasing the ball too early.

Good projection is about efficient energy transfer from your approach into the ball.

The most efficient point to release the ball is at the exact bottom of the arm swing.

If you release the ball later than that, you project the ball up into the air. (See any video of Aslan)

If you release the ball earlier than that, energy is wasted at the impact into the lane. (See any of my videos)

[MICHAEL]

Basic straight slide we used as kids..im 56....slide did not send u airborne.....maybe trajectory of ball rather than porojection might help.....that's why u hear people talking about pushing the ball down the lane.......

So laying the ball down close to the foul line vs further out? Using the dots, manybe instead of the arrows?


projecting the ball down the lane is basically moving you mark, instead of using a target that is 10 feet from you (the arrows), you project you target down lane, example: the reflection of the pins on the lane. doing this will increase accuracy so long as you can constantly hit it. once i learned how to project the ball my average increased by nearly 20 pins over a summers worth of practice

instead of using the arrows,,,, which is about ( I would guess ) 10 feet away,,,, YOU TARGET FURTHER Down the lane... Iceman needs help,,, this sounds the opposite of what Beagle says. :confused: HOW can you target the reflection of the pins? LOL

I am so FRICKEN confused about this Projection and modern release, that I am not even sure how to practice it!

maybe a link explaining it step by step??

[MICHAEL]

Moving your mark down the lane is a way to achieve better projection if your problem is releasing the ball too early.

Good projection is about efficient energy transfer from your approach into the ball.

The most efficient point to release the ball is at the exact bottom of the arm swing.

If you release the ball later than that, you project the ball up into the air. (See any video of Aslan)

If you release the ball earlier than that, energy is wasted at the impact into the lane. (See any of my videos)


OK,,, now this is beginning to make sense! If you loft the ball as that young kid did on TV that almost won the titile, ( the guy that wore tennis shoes, and threw beyond the arrows LOL) that worked for him. His energy flow though the pins was pretty amazing.

I don't get how moving your mark down the lane, is a way of better projection, I would think you would release the ball well past the bottom of the swing looking further down??

[Shaneshu87]

i am no coach lol but instead of looking at the arrows i look down lane at the reflection of the pins i use the tip of the 6 pin reflection as a mark instead of an arrow. so i guess this helps to project my ball

[Beagle]

yep mike white hit the nail on the head....great explanation

[Beagle]

might have to sneak in Alignment as #5....how many times have you seen guys standing 25 or more playing 2nd arrow

[Shaneshu87]

might have to sneak in Alignment as #5....how many times have you seen guys standing 25 or more playing 2nd arrow

agreed! hahaha i love watching people that keep moving left but keep the exact same mark and get frustrated "why will nothing work!? it must be the lanes!"

[Beagle]

exactly.....u see them crying in their drink at the bar about the lanes. that's a given for every league

[MICHAEL]

exactly.....u see them crying in their drink at the bar about the lanes. that's a given for every league

HEY,,, Iceman does not drink! I know all about moving left, ( if you don't have a Deadly Aim), in which case you can almost play the same line all night long! (ALMOST) I know about, when moving left moving target also, to find fresh oil!

I have never heard of ANYONE using the reflection of pins to target...LOL...NEVER!

That young guy that beat some of the best on tv was a 27 year old named ( Valenta),,, I know that the spelling is incorrect I will look it up and make the correction, he did what I would call PROJECT THE BALL DOWN THE LANE! Two hander, who put his thumb into the ball to the first knuckle as I remember it!

PROJECT the ball.....

I will go back to read mike whites comment... maybe I need to read it twice? :rolleyes:

[Beagle]

I have heard that about reflection of pins as a target......cant do it though.....I think I read that the black masking reflection is the 45' mark

[RobLV1]

Another thing that adds to projection is an increase in forward spine tilt through the release. The upward angle that you see in the pros follow-throughs takes place after the ball is gone. The increasing spine tilt angle smooths out the bottom of the swing plane which aids in projecting the ball and in limiting lift through the release.

[Shaneshu87]

i'm not sure to the distance but it truly helps some lanes even have a second set of arrows down lane that are about the same distance as the head pin reflection. i do know this, when i roll on a THS the break point, where my balls kicks left, is always at my mark. so when i target the tip of the 6 pin reflection i know that as soon as my ball hits the tip it makes its move through the pin deck. yes it is hard. no i'm not bragging. it is something i have practiced for a few years and i still miss allot, and i need more practice finding that reflection point for each sport shot the shorter patterns are easier to lock down, for me anyway.

[mike_thomas93]

That's similar to Tom Smallwood's style, only he uses one hand and he's a full roller

[mike_thomas93]

That's nothing but Gutterball Grand Prix right there lol

[mike_thomas93]

Would there be any difference of projectory/release compared to a bowler that plants? Like me, I plant my foot, not slide.

[mike_thomas93]

Oh that reminds me. I just turned 21. I'm allowed to go into the bar now lol I forgot. Not to get drunk or anything since i"m not a drinker, but yeah lol I think I'll go in my next visit at the bowling alley ;p

[Beagle]

I believe Couch plants his foot and he hits out on the ball, not up

[MICHAEL]

Oh that reminds me. I just turned 21. I'm allowed to go into the bar now lol I forgot. Not to get drunk or anything since i"m not a drinker, but yeah lol I think I'll go in my next visit at the bowling alley ;p


happy birthday mike! So you just turned 21,,,, lol,,, if you do go to the bar, ( and Iceman does not drink ), make sure you let the boozes slide down your throat, don't project, or loft it!!

The old school is still the best in consuming boozes!!!

[mike_thomas93]

Nahh I think he slides. Doesn't hurt to check though. You mean Jason Couch, right?

[mike_thomas93]

Lol thanks, Icebeater. ;p I may try once, but as mentioned, I don't drink. Plus I'm on a little weight-loss mission. Alcohol in the mix wouldn't help the cause ;p

[Hammer]

Projection of a bowling ball can be compared to a big league pitcher. The pitcher projects the ball out to the batter but after the ball leaves his hand his arm goes downward because it is attached to his shoulder. Because it is attached to the shoulder the arm will not keep going straight but go downward. So in bowling after the ball comes off of your hand the force of the swing from coming down after being up behind you will go up in front of you. So when you see pros bowl at release they are not hitting up on the ball. They just push the ball onto the lane when they uncup or uncock and after that the force of doing that makes their arm come up because it is attached to their shoulder and has nowhere else to go from that force. See my post from the Kegel training center on the proper release with a link showing pro releases. They
are not hitting up on the ball even though you see their arms shoot up.

[rv driver]

Projection of a bowling ball can be compared to a big league pitcher. The pitcher projects the ball out to the batter but after the ball leaves his hand his arm goes downward because it is attached to his shoulder. Because it is attached to the shoulder the arm will not keep going straight but go downward. So in bowling after the ball comes off of your hand the force of the swing from coming down after being up behind you will go up in front of you. So when you see pros bowl at release they are not hitting up on the ball. They just push the ball onto the lane when they uncup or uncock and after that the force of doing that makes their arm come up because it is attached to their shoulder and has nowhere else to go from that force. See my post from the Kegel training center on the proper release with a link showing pro releases. They
are not hitting up on the ball even though you see their arms shoot up.
I think the same thing happens when you take a drink. Even though you're projecting the shot down your throat, your drinking hand will still shoot up, then slam the glass down on the bar.

[Blacksox1]

I think the same thing happens when you take a drink. Even though you're projecting the shot down your throat, your drinking hand will still shoot up, then slam the glass down on the bar.

LOL, good one

[rv driver]

LOL, good one
My drinking league average is 85 proof. I prefer my Scotch straight up the boards, but like my gin to arc neatly into the pocket. My tequila must make a hard turning hook and attack the pocket, kicking my pins out from under me.

[Aslan]

Good post! Here are the absolute musts/fundamentals that I believe should be emphasized for bowlers on modern synthetic lanes using reactive resin balls:

1. Timing: the bowler and the ball must arrive at the foul line at the same time.
2. Balance: being able to post each shot guarantees good timing.
3. Repitition: being able to throw the ball the same each time.
4. Projection: being able to project the ball down the lane with minimal "lift," in other words following through in an outward direction rather than an upward direction.

I think if thid id s bsre bones MUST list...it's really just #3.

Timing? What about bowlers with intentional early or late timing? Some of the best have it. Balance? Fall to the right all ya want....if you can repeat your shots and score well...are we going to tell WRW to keep is sweep leg on the floor? And projection? I PERSONALLY think projection is important...but if it's "vital"...then sorry thumbless bowlers...you need to stop bowling. Sorry Mark Roth style crankers or old school strokers...you guys need to change. :eek:

Bowling is simply a game of repeating shots that strike. Repitition. If your style is to jump in the air and spin around and walk towards the line like Fred Flinstone and let out a big fart as you release the ball....and you can manage a 279 average....and do that the same every time....#1, #2, #4 be damned. But #3 NEVER goes away.

And, as for the definition of "projection"....TOTALLY disagree that projection is targeting further down lane. "Projection" is getting the ball out towards your target which (in addition to what Mike and Rob mentioned) is like a bullet in a rifle barrel vs a snub nose revolver. "Projecting" down lane tends to get the ball going toward the target, gets it out a little further before it's affected by lane conditions (like a bullet in a barrel). But...BUT....the idea that a bowler is better suited targeted a spot further away is FUNDAMENTALLY incorrect. One of the first things we learn (and still teach) in bowling is to NOT target the pins/pocket because a spot further away is harder to hit than one closer.

So, in terms of ABSOLUTE truths...repeating your shot that works. Thats all, thats it, nothing more to see here. :cool:

[Shaneshu87]

your right targeting a spot closer is easier to hit, but you can hit the arrow every time and it could be in two or three different angles and affect your ball, so i feel like accuracy is a must, for me if you hit a mark down lane every time (one that is harder to hit) then you'll have more consistency for repetition. i don't aim at the pins, i aim at the reflection of the pins, where my typical break point IS, if i can hit that point every time i know exactly what my ball will do.

[MICHAEL]

I think if thid id s bsre bones MUST list...it's really just #3.

Timing? What about bowlers with intentional early or late timing? Some of the best have it. Balance? Fall to the right all ya want....if you can repeat your shots and score well...are we going to tell WRW to keep is sweep leg on the floor? And projection? I PERSONALLY think projection is important...but if it's "vital"...then sorry thumbless bowlers...you need to stop bowling. Sorry Mark Roth style crankers or old school strokers...you guys need to change. :eek:

Bowling is simply a game of repeating shots that strike. Repitition. If your style is to jump in the air and spin around and walk towards the line like Fred Flinstone and let out a big fart as you release the ball....and you can manage a 279 average....and do that the same every time....#1, #2, #4 be damned. But #3 NEVER goes away.

And, as for the definition of "projection"....TOTALLY disagree that projection is targeting further down lane. "Projection" is getting the ball out towards your target which (in addition to what Mike and Rob mentioned) is like a bullet in a rifle barrel vs a snub nose revolver. "Projecting" down lane tends to get the ball going toward the target, gets it out a little further before it's affected by lane conditions (like a bullet in a barrel). But...BUT....the idea that a bowler is better suited targeted a spot further away is FUNDAMENTALLY incorrect. One of the first things we learn (and still teach) in bowling is to NOT target the pins/pocket because a spot further away is harder to hit than one closer.

So, in terms of ABSOLUTE truths...repeating your shot that works. Thats all, thats it, nothing more to see here. :cool:

The part about REPEATING SHOTS THAT STRIKE, is RIGHT on in my book! As I have ask MANY unorthodox bowlers, with styles of bowling that would give a Coach NIGHTMARES, "Where did they get their training,,, almost all replied, WHAT training? They were self taught, and many with that 220, or higher average.

If you have a style that works, and your wining games, and tournaments, Don't Jack With It! I have seen guys ruined learning THE CORRECT Way to bowl, or even golf!

For most, I am SURE coaching is a good thing! But some are GIFTED, and bowl well not knowing the correct way to project the ball...LOL

I agree Aslan, if you have a system that works, don't fix it!!

One thing I did notice about most of the unorthodox styles of bowlers,,,, they were consistent in their unique deliveries.

Consistency alone is not the key, BUT if you have a unique style that gives you the big numbers, I bet you are consistent!

If you are inconstant, and bowl poorly, you DO NEED A COACH probably. Dial 911... Rob!!,

[tccstudent]

I fit in that catagory too for awhile I was almost obsessed with fixing my timing and asking a few coiches around here for tips and they all told me to leave it alone my unorthadox timing is like taking 5 steps with a three step approach. My pushaway does not start till my third step and my fett are completly stopped with me still in the high point of my back swing. But as long as I am staying balanced I can make great shots over and over and aince I quit trying to fix my timing my average has jumped 15 pins and is over 200 and c imbing every week

[Shaneshu87]

i think practice needs to be added to the list, you can do anything but to be truly good/great you need to practice, doesn't matter your style

[Mike White]

your right targeting a spot closer is easier to hit, but you can hit the arrow every time and it could be in two or three different angles and affect your ball, so i feel like accuracy is a must, for me if you hit a mark down lane every time (one that is harder to hit) then you'll have more consistency for repetition. i don't aim at the pins, i aim at the reflection of the pins, where my typical break point IS, if i can hit that point every time i know exactly what my ball will do.

Where on the lane, the reflection appears is different for people of different heights, and as you walk towards the foul line, the reflection moves relative to the lane surface.

Probably better to find some kind of marking on the lane near the reflection, then concentrate on the marking instead.

[Shaneshu87]

from that distance the variation is of the reflection is minor

[Beagle]

yes that reflection moves from stance to end of ur approach for me.. cant do it....the whole gist of that I think is to develop a line rather than a spot or target. how long or short u make the line is up to u...... as for other comments, yes there r no style points in bowling. Its not like a diving or gymnastics.. the objective is to knock down as many pins with each ball..Robs list, which I added alignment, includes those traits that he feels would enable a person to do so on a more consistent basis....yes they can be tweaked to a degree.As far as thumbless bowlers and projecting, they do that easily. projecting is a plane landing not taking off..

[Shaneshu87]

but you are correct if your alley has cheater arrows great (there is a reason there called cheater arrows) aim for those, if not do what you want, i'm just sharing the method of how i use a mark down lane successfully with no cheater arrows available

[Mike White]

from that distance the variation is of the reflection is minor

The difference is minor lengthwise, but side to side it is not minor.

After you release the ball, you watch to see if your ball actually reaches the reflection.

Unless you post the shot consistently, sideways motion of the head moves the reflection sideways as well.

[Shaneshu87]

side to side changes even if you aim at the arrows lol if your aiming at a mark no matter where it is, as long as your approach is somewhat consistent, even for drifters, then after release you "should" hit it, after the ball comes out of your hand you cannot move it to correct yourself, if your off balance and take a side step after release then there is no way to know if your hitting the mark your aiming at unless you can teach yourself better balance to follow the ball to the mark without moving side to side. sorry i'm a physics major and you guys are talking about a change of milometers in a game of feet and inches, unless of course your a drifter then the reflection could move for you but even then, unless your drifting the whole approach deck side to side, we're talking about an inch at max! lol and yes i know on a sport a shot a milometer is a big deal, but we're talking about a ths that usually has a 10 board variance for hit and misses. all i'm doing is offering my knowledge, i started using the reflection average shot up 25 pins with practice, i help team mates learn to use the reflection their averages shot up. it helps create accuracy so when you do go into a sport shot your not one of those THS bowlers at state for example (or reno) that just throws as hard as he can and relies on that 10 board variance to save his butt everytime he misses his mark. sorry off the soap box now ;)

[Hampe]

sorry i'm a physics major and you guys are talking about a change of milometers in a game of feet and inches....Well....I can certainly tell you were paying attention in class.....

[bowl1820]

When using a reflection down the lane as a spot to look at. It's only that, a "spot" to look at and was never meant as some precise target to hit.

Yes, there is some variance of the location of the reflection front to back and side to side with your movements.
(Now the side to side variation just from your head position would be a little more than a few milometers though and if you drift it could be more.)

That's why you need to note where that "reflection mark" is at the moment of your release and you need to be consistent with your shot making.

You mainly use the reflection to help with projection down the lane and direction of your arm swing. When used for that those variations are minor.

And yes you have to be consistent and post your shot for it to work well, But that is true of whatever mark you use.

[RobLV1]

Using the reflections of the pins is a variation on breakpoint bowling. The idea of the "target" in bowling is nothing more than an intended direction for the armswing. Two or three years ago I read about an interesting study of the Women's Team USA. They measured the accuracy, at the arrows, of each of the players on the team. The bowler who proved to be the most consistent in terms of hitting her mark at the arrows was Shannon Pluhowsky. Shannon is a breakpoint bowler! She doesn't target the arrows. This is one of the reasons that consistent footwork is so important. If you are walking consistently, you will hit your target consistently, even if you target an area down the lane rather than at the arrows.

[MICHAEL]

Using the reflections of the pins is a variation on breakpoint bowling. The idea of the "target" in bowling is nothing more than an intended direction for the armswing. Two or three years ago I read about an interesting study of the Women's Team USA. They measured the accuracy, at the arrows, of each of the players on the team. The bowler who proved to be the most consistent in terms of hitting her mark at the arrows was Shannon Pluhowsky. Shannon is a breakpoint bowler! She doesn't target the arrows. This is one of the reasons that consistent footwork is so important. If you are walking consistently, you will hit your target consistently, even if you target an area down the lane rather than at the arrows.


maybe you have mentioned this already Rob, but what do you target?

[RobLV1]

I target the reflection of the pins a great majority of the time for the simple reason that I am left eye dominant, so targeting at the arrows is difficult because my vision has not come together at that point. When I have to move left of about 17 at the arrows, I use a three point system; laydown point, arrows, and reflections to keep from drifting right.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Cheater arrows cracks me up. Down lane those are on the 15 board and 10 board. The middle of the 3 pins sits on 14 1/2 and the middle of the 6 pin sits on 9. If you ballpark the distances of those markers which is 34-37 feet and 40-43 feet or your break point you can see a spot down lane without the markers. That is why you here guys talk about throwing towards or being a 6 pin or 3 pin shot or what ever.

[Aslan]

Using the reflections of the pins is a variation on breakpoint bowling. The idea of the "target" in bowling is nothing more than an intended direction for the armswing.

Again, I think we're talking about old versus new a bit here.

People used to target arrows and teach and preach targeting arrows. Many bowlers, even PBA, still do. Some target even closer. As technology has evolved into balls that break more sharply…one of the newer concepts is "break point". Now many modern bowlers are being taught to subtract the oil pattern length from whatever to get you a general break point and to target that "area". Thumbless bowlers and 2-handed bowlers almost HAVE to do this by nature of their technique.

I still believe you aim closer if you throw straighter. Less room for error. Easier to hit you mark.

BUT…if you're a bowler that uses a lot of revs or stronger equipment…then using a break point type of targeting might be the way to go…because the closer the target you hit…there's still a lot of things that can impact your ball movement as the lane surface reacts with the ball.

I'm sure there are examples of strokers with break point success and crankers with success targeting arrows…and everything in between.

I actually need to evolve my own targeting from strictly targeting arrows because as I move inside…the simple 3 to 1 movement tends to create too much angle. Not to mention, I become more reliant on said "break point" since my ball is spending much of it's time in the heavier oil in the center. Rob is more of "inside" bowler with a modern release so I'd expect him to use break points and pin reflections. I throw much straighter and play the outside…so I'd expect a bowler like me to target closer. And if we're talking youth and beginners…it's a no-brainer…they are taught NOT to aim for the pocket or the pins…or the "break point"…but to aim for a target close to them.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob hit the nail on the head when he stated the target is nothing more than the intended direction for the arm swing. It does not matter what you target, it can be the foul line, dots, arrows, breakpoint, or a certain pin down lane. The point is to direct your arm swing towards that target. There was much less break point targeting in the past when we were oiling the lanes to 24 or 28 feet. You tended to target closer to where the ball was going to pick up its roll. I target the dots but i always try to envision a line between my desired break point and a lay down point that i can get the reaction i'm looking for from that break point. I do that same thing whether i am playing 5 or 25 at my target spot with my eyes.

[Aslan]

I dabbled with 3-point and 2-point targeting for a bit.

My thought was, I could easily hit the dots…because they're the closest. So if I drew a line from my target at the arrows to the dot (or lay down)…I could aim for a closer target and still hit my intended target.

It worked "okay"…in theory. The downside was I lost the projection down lane. Since I was targeting dots quite close to me I had a tendency to "drop" the ball at my target rather than project it. Still a work in progress. I'd like to develop a more inside game where I could do 3-point targeting of the break point. Just gotta work on approach, timing, and release first.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Just like everyone else, always a work in progress. I think in targeting though you always have to consider more than 1 spot in the balls migration towards the pins. There is usually some point in a set where you can hit a certain arrow or a break point from several different angles and not find the reaction your looking for.

[RobLV1]

Aslan: Once you lose the concept of "target," and get the concept of intended direction, then it really doesn't matter if you hit your "target" or not. Does it?

[larry mc]

grip it n rip it

[Aslan]

Aslan: Once you lose the concept of "target," and get the concept of intended direction, then it really doesn't matter if you hit your "target" or not. Does it?

That makes no sense. My intended direction…is the pocket at an optimum angle. To GET to that intended direction…the ball needs to go to a spot, make a little turn, and hit the target. Depending on lane conditions, ball, and style…HOW that happens will vary.

But the common theme no matter HOW you deliver that ball down the lane..is you MUST make a repeatable shot. You MUST.

How do you do that? Well, there's timing and speed and consistent release, etc… But the bottom line is…whatever you are aiming at (or for), you must hit it with the minimal amount of variation.

Through about 60 years of bowling (and 400,000 years of projectile weaponry)…the closer the target, the easier is to hit. And the smaller the target, the less the variation...

THEREFORE…consistency in approach/release/speed…over a target that is small and close to you…results in the most repeatability.

Where I "sort of" agree with you is that while yes, a target closer to you should be used (versus further away)…it assumes that when that target is hit…nothing will happen to the ball to inhibit it from actually getting to the break point and into the pocket. If you are a high rev player and/or someone that plays deep inside…and you aim for the dots or arrows…there "may" be an adjustment you need to make if the lanes (from target to break point) are causing the ball not to stay on line.

But the bottom line is…if you can hit a target at the arrows with less than 1 board of variation…you're a pro. If you can't, you're not. Theres no other criteria…that will differentiate between a bad bowler and elite bowler as much as that. Am I wrong?

http://quizilla.teennick.com/user_images/I/invadertak/1035076776_wskiWalter.jpg

[RobLV1]

Bowling a strike requires several factors, and accuracy is certainly one of them. My point is that, as has long been said, there are no pins at the arrows. Let me give you an example. In the Challenge Shot League that I'm bowling this summer, there quite a few high school bowlers who are using the league for practice during their summer break from team bowling. I happened to be practicing near one young man from the league who was bowling with a couple of his friends on the house condition. He was striking at will. He was just letting the ball go. Two days later on the challenge shot he really struggled, as he often does. His ability to just let it go was obviously hampered by his knowledge that he didn't have the miss room that he has on a house shot. Because of this knowledge, and fear, he was so concerned with his accuracy that he started to aim the ball rather than just let it go. The flow of his swing was gone, as was his ability to throw strikes.

My point was not that you don't have to be accurate. You do. However, consistency often means consistently missing your target by the same distance on each shot. I have known many, many excellent bowlers over the years who will tell you that they never hit their mark, but they miss it by the same distance on every shot. When you are obsessed with hitting a spot at the dots or the arrows, you don't let the other elements play their parts: a free armswing and a great release. You can't fit the ball into the pocket. You have to roll the ball into the pocket.

[Amyers]

I will also say control of your angle as you cross the arrow is just as important as hitting the correct board. If you told me tomorrow the best my accuracy will ever be is +- 2 or 3 boards but I could have perfect control of my angle of entry or I could hit my board every time but with little control over the angle. I would take the first option every time.

It is easy to stand at 20 and aim for the second arrow and throw the ball in the gutter while having hit your mark. This gets more and more true the farther inside you move. It's really not that important where the ball is at the arrows what matters is where the ball ends up as it makes it's turn.

[rv driver]

I will also say control of your angle as you cross the arrow is just as important as hitting the correct board. If you told me tomorrow the best my accuracy will ever be is +- 2 or 3 boards but I could have perfect control of my angle of entry or I could hit my board every time but with little control over the angle. I would take the first option every time.

It is easy to stand at 20 and aim for the second arrow and throw the ball in the gutter while having hit your mark. This gets more and more true the farther inside you move. It's really not that important where the ball is at the arrows what matters is where the ball ends up as it makes it's turn.
Explain what you mean by "angle of entry." Are you talking about angle of armswing in relationship to the lane?

[bowl1820]

Explain what you mean by "angle of entry." Are you talking about angle of armswing in relationship to the lane?

Angle of Entry (Entry Angle) is the angle at which the bowling ball enters the pins.

The angle of arm swing would be the launch angle.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Something that has stuck in mind for years is a quote from brian voss. He said the first thing he tries to do is find a shot where he can miss his target and still get to the pocket. That told me a lot when coming from some one like that.

[Joker]

Something that has stuck in mind for years is a quote from brian voss. He said the first thing he tries to do is find a shot where he can miss his target and still get to the pocket. That told me a lot when coming from some one like that.

great advice

[rv driver]

Angle of Entry (Entry Angle) is the angle at which the bowling ball enters the pins.

The angle of arm swing would be the launch angle.
OK. That makes sense. In that case, I agree with Amyers. Angle of entry is, I think, more important.

[rv driver]

Something that has stuck in mind for years is a quote from brian voss. He said the first thing he tries to do is find a shot where he can miss his target and still get to the pocket. That told me a lot when coming from some one like that.
It seems to me that, with reactive balls/rev-dominant shooting, accuracy is less of an issue than it is for a straight-up-the-boards player. It seems like the balls in that scenario really do a good job of compensating for lack of precision.

[Amyers]

Explain what you mean by "angle of entry." Are you talking about angle of armswing in relationship to the lane?

Not in the best manner of explaining there from me but both.

If you don't have control of the angle the ball is coming off the swing (launch angle. Thanks for the new terminology bowl1820) and crossing the arrows it doesn't matter what board you hit.

If you don't have good angle to the pocket (angle of entry) you will often find yourself with harder spares than if you missed the pocket entirely.

With me anyway if I have those two down it doesn't matter as much if I'm off a board or two on the accuracy part on most of the lane conditions I've faced.

[rv driver]

Not in the best manner of explaining there from me but both.

If you don't have control of the angle the ball is coming off the swing (launch angle. Thanks for the new terminology bowl1820) and crossing the arrows it doesn't matter what board you hit.

If you don't have good angle to the pocket (angle of entry) you will often find yourself with harder spares than if you missed the pocket entirely.

With me anyway if I have those two down it doesn't matter as much if I'm off a board or two on the accuracy part on most of the lane conditions I've faced.
OK. This I can agree with.

[Amyers]

It seems to me that, with reactive balls/rev-dominant shooting, accuracy is less of an issue than it is for a straight-up-the-boards player. It seems like the balls in that scenario really do a good job of compensating for lack of precision.

On typical THS yes your right but not every week is typical. I generally think I have at least 3 boards I can hit and be pretty sure of a strike. But on some nights finding that one board is difficult so like everything else it depends.

[rv driver]

On typical THS yes your right but not every week is typical. I generally think I have at least 3 boards I can hit and be pretty sure of a strike. But on some nights finding that one board is difficult so like everything else it depends.
On a THS, it would depend, I'd think, on how bad the carry-down was.

[Amyers]

On a THS, it would depend, I'd think, on how bad the carry-down was.

During leagues I don't see much carry down usually that is after open bowling when you've had a bunch of people throwing plastic balls down the middle I see that not so much of that on league.

Sometimes on our league nights the weather or something just goes wrong and it seems that if you miss any right the ball over hooks and comes high and if you miss left the ball just doesn't turn over and come back to the pocket. I would think it was just me but usually when i see this everybody is struggling with the same problem. I believe they call it wet/dry.

[rv driver]

During leagues I don't see much carry down usually that is after open bowling when you've had a bunch of people throwing plastic balls down the middle I see that not so much of that on league.

Sometimes on our league nights the weather or something just goes wrong and it seems that if you miss any right the ball over hooks and comes high and if you miss left the ball just doesn't turn over and come back to the pocket. I would think it was just me but usually when i see this everybody is struggling with the same problem. I believe they call it wet/dry.
Yep. I've seen some of that, too.

[RobLV1]

It's called humidity! When the weather is humid, it causes the excess moisture to settle on the oil making it more viscous. The oil skids more, and that makes the friction seem more reactive. So when you're in the oil, you get more skid, and when you hit the friction, the difference is greater so it seems like the ball is hooking more. When the lanes get wet/dry you have two choices: play the wet or play the dry. The oil line becomes out of bounds.

[Aslan]

It seems to me that, with reactive balls/rev-dominant shooting, accuracy is less of an issue than it is for a straight-up-the-boards player. It seems like the balls in that scenario really do a good job of compensating for lack of precision.

High rev players play the break point "area" and you're right…precision isn't as important as release because as long as they hit that "area"; the ball has an advantageous angle and roll to the pocket.

But for strokers, lower rev players, and/or speed dominant players…precision is the #1 factor in determining success because the angle into the pocket isn't as optimal…so small misses result in non-strikes. And as the patterns become more difficult, the precision becomes that much more important. For example:

For me;

- wood lanes, dry outside- I have 2-3 boards of miss to the left and up to 6 boards miss to the right and I can still hit the pocket.
- drier synthetics- I have 1-2 boards miss area to the left and 2-3 boards miss area to the right and can still hit the pocket.
- medium oil- I have about 1 board miss area to the left and 1-2 boards to the right to still hit the pocket.
- heavy oil or long sport patterns- I have maybe 1 board left or right of miss area.

So why not just be a 2-handed bowler or cranker? Get that "area" instead of trying to thread the needle? Well, because every style has it's pluses and minuses. The more you rely on revs and lane surface, the more negative effects you can have on your ball movement. Why do Belmo and Osku struggle on shorter patterns, yet seem dominant on longer patterns?

"Can" I generate more revs and play the "break point" game? Sure. With reduced accuracy. How many guys do you see during league play that when they are "on"…and striking…they seem unbeatable? But when they don't strike they struggle to make spares? I see those guys ALL the time. Thats why I try to tell people that are in love with the 2-handed game…it isn't as easy as it looks. Belmo is a "rare" case…most 2-handers don't have the total game package that allows them to adjust and make spares, etc...But I make the conscious effort to focus most on accuracy. It helps my spare shooting and it gives me some "time" to work on my release so that maybe "someday" I can throw with more revs AND accuracy. Maybe.

Or plan B I find the "gift".

[Amyers]

High rev players play the break point "area" and you're right…precision isn't as important as release because as long as they hit that "area"; the ball has an advantageous angle and roll to the pocket.

But for strokers, lower rev players, and/or speed dominant players…precision is the #1 factor in determining success because the angle into the pocket isn't as optimal…so small misses result in non-strikes. And as the patterns become more difficult, the precision becomes that much more important. For example:

For me;

- wood lanes, dry outside- I have 2-3 boards of miss to the left and up to 6 boards miss to the right and I can still hit the pocket.
- drier synthetics- I have 1-2 boards miss area to the left and 2-3 boards miss area to the right and can still hit the pocket.
- medium oil- I have about 1 board miss area to the left and 1-2 boards to the right to still hit the pocket.
- heavy oil or long sport patterns- I have maybe 1 board left or right of miss area.

So why not just be a 2-handed bowler or cranker? Get that "area" instead of trying to thread the needle? Well, because every style has it's pluses and minuses. The more you rely on revs and lane surface, the more negative effects you can have on your ball movement. Why do Belmo and Osku struggle on shorter patterns, yet seem dominant on longer patterns?

"Can" I generate more revs and play the "break point" game? Sure. With reduced accuracy. How many guys do you see during league play that when they are "on"…and striking…they seem unbeatable? But when they don't strike they struggle to make spares? I see those guys ALL the time. Thats why I try to tell people that are in love with the 2-handed game…it isn't as easy as it looks. Belmo is a "rare" case…most 2-handers don't have the total game package that allows them to adjust and make spares, etc...But I make the conscious effort to focus most on accuracy. It helps my spare shooting and it gives me some "time" to work on my release so that maybe "someday" I can throw with more revs AND accuracy. Maybe.

Or plan B I find the "gift".

Yeah I have 2 two handers that are okay on my Friday night league when they are on they ca put some impressive scores up but when they are not striking they have serious issues.i don't know Belmo seems to be a one in a million type player I don't really feel the need for a style that is more inconsistent than me.

[rv driver]

It's called humidity! When the weather is humid, it causes the excess moisture to settle on the oil making it more viscous. The oil skids more, and that makes the friction seem more reactive. So when you're in the oil, you get more skid, and when you hit the friction, the difference is greater so it seems like the ball is hooking more. When the lanes get wet/dry you have two choices: play the wet or play the dry. The oil line becomes out of bounds.
I need to just have you move next door to me, so I can milk you for advice all the time.

[rv driver]

High rev players play the break point "area" and you're right…precision isn't as important as release because as long as they hit that "area"; the ball has an advantageous angle and roll to the pocket.

But for strokers, lower rev players, and/or speed dominant players…precision is the #1 factor in determining success because the angle into the pocket isn't as optimal…so small misses result in non-strikes. And as the patterns become more difficult, the precision becomes that much more important. For example:

For me;

- wood lanes, dry outside- I have 2-3 boards of miss to the left and up to 6 boards miss to the right and I can still hit the pocket.
- drier synthetics- I have 1-2 boards miss area to the left and 2-3 boards miss area to the right and can still hit the pocket.
- medium oil- I have about 1 board miss area to the left and 1-2 boards to the right to still hit the pocket.
- heavy oil or long sport patterns- I have maybe 1 board left or right of miss area.

So why not just be a 2-handed bowler or cranker? Get that "area" instead of trying to thread the needle? Well, because every style has it's pluses and minuses. The more you rely on revs and lane surface, the more negative effects you can have on your ball movement. Why do Belmo and Osku struggle on shorter patterns, yet seem dominant on longer patterns?

"Can" I generate more revs and play the "break point" game? Sure. With reduced accuracy. How many guys do you see during league play that when they are "on"…and striking…they seem unbeatable? But when they don't strike they struggle to make spares? I see those guys ALL the time. Thats why I try to tell people that are in love with the 2-handed game…it isn't as easy as it looks. Belmo is a "rare" case…most 2-handers don't have the total game package that allows them to adjust and make spares, etc...But I make the conscious effort to focus most on accuracy. It helps my spare shooting and it gives me some "time" to work on my release so that maybe "someday" I can throw with more revs AND accuracy. Maybe.

Or plan B I find the "gift".
Well, I've been a stroker, up-the-boards player for years. Guess I'll stick with the precision game.

[Hammer]

Not to get off the subject but doesn't Aslan look like John Goodman from the Roseann show where he plays her husband Dan?

[rv driver]

Not to get off the subject but doesn't Aslan look like John Goodman from the Roseann show where he plays her husband Dan?
At least he doesn't look like Roseann...

[Shaneshu87]

Not to get off the subject but doesn't Aslan look like John Goodman from the Roseann show where he plays her husband Dan?

that is a picture of John Goodman from a scene taken from "The Big Lebowsky" a very iconic bowling movie...

[Aslan]

that is a picture of John Goodman from a scene taken from "The Big Lebowsky" a very iconic bowling movie...

Wait. Was Hammer seriously looking at a picture of John Goodman, assuming it was a selfie of me, then saying I looked a lot like the actor that played "Dan" in Roseanne...played by John Goodman???

Please say he was kidding.'

And Rob, what do you know about humidity? You live in Arizona.

[Hammer]

OOPS! I made a wrong statement there. I meant to say doesn't John Goodman look like an older Aslan?